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The problem with the above story is that the engineer lost all connection to the project. It would be like allowing an artist to finish a painting 90% and then

The problem with the above story is that the engineer lost all connection to the project. It would be like allowing an artist to finish a painting 90% and then firing the artist and giving the painting to someone else. It is heartbreaking to hear. Those are years of someones life. > Look at all the folks who get PhDs and waste their 30's doing low paid postdocs ($50K is higher end). Research is different. You are certainly losing out on income, however in my experience you have an immense amount of ownership and autonomy over the project. If you get the boot you can take your project with you. You can publish your code as free software or open source and your papers on open access pre-print services. Academic researchers are often far less alienated from their labor than video game engineers. Consider two orthogonal vectors: one is income earned and the other is your accomplishments. Ideally you want to maximize both, but failing that different people express different priorities over which one to maximize in a career.

BeetleB 10y ago
>The problem with the above story is that the engineer lost all connection to the project. It would be like allowing an artist to finish a painting 90% and then firing the artist and giving the painting to someone else. It's heartbreaking to hear. It's heartbreaking the first time I hear it. After the 100th time, the sentiment transforms to "Why did you allow yourself in this predicament?" And the answer is always "Passion". This story has been repeated over and over for the last 15 years. You can take this exact story to aspiring game developers and they'll say "I don't care. It's not about the money. I just want to make games. Even if I play a small role in the project I'll be satisfied" >You are certainly losing out on income, however in my experience have an immense amount of ownership and autonomy over the project. Many postdocs don't. They do the bidding of some faculty member. Many faculty members don't. Sure, on paper they do. But they'll all tell you about the work they cannot pursue because they can't get grant money for it. >If you get the boot you can take your project with you. Not true for some postdoc work. >You can publish code as free software or open source and your papers on open access pre-print services. Not true as a post doc. My advisor certainly forbade it. >Consider two orthogonal vectors: one is income earned and the other is your accomplishments. Ideally you want to maximize both, but failing that, different personalities often express different priorities over which one to maximize in a career. I completely agree with this, which is why I'm not sympathetic to the game developer, or with postdocs who regret spending so long in academia. They picked their priorities - it was not imposed on to them. And for many, later in their life, they feel they picked the "wrong" priorities.
- EthanHeilman 10y ago
  >I completely agree with this, which is why I'm not sympathetic to the game developer, or with postdocs who regret spending so long in academia. They picked their priorities - it was not imposed on to them. And for many, later in their life, they feel they picked the "wrong" priorities. I am sympathetic to them as we have all made bad decisions. I would argue that a neccessary pre-condition to "following your passion" is protecting that passion and pursuing a longterm strategy which allows you to develop that passion and maintain ownership over your work. Chasing passion is not an reason for failing to plan or for allowing others to walk all over you. Software engineers on the whole have sufficient power to not be at the mercy of bosses if they have the will to stand up for themselves. They owe it to themselves and to their limited lifespan to do so. Edit: I think we both are saying that, to the degree possible, people have a responsibility to themselves to not allow themselves to be exploited.
  - mungoid 10y ago
    >And for many, later in their life, they feel they picked the "wrong" priorities. That, right there, is exactly what im feeling currently. It all started as a hobby some years ago and I got an opportunity to turn it into a career, so I did. I dont regret that time because I met some pretty amazing people and learned a TON about so many fascinating things. But I finally got fed up last year and left to do some freelancing work while I performed a 'Career-Shift'. Unfortunately, what I have come to realize is that its pretty difficult to switch from being a contract developer for 10 or so years. I dont know for sure, but I think, because I have the 'Jack of all trades, master of none' resume. It's highly demotivating. What should have stayed a hobby became a career, and now feel scorned because of it.
    - BeetleB 10y ago
      >What should have stayed a hobby became a career, and now feel scorned because of it. I think this statement sums it up. After a while, I figured out that for most jobs, following passion is too much of a risk. Even if it is aligned with my passions, any minor change (e.g. management decision) can make it a chore or much worse. It will never really be according to my vision. So I switched to a boring job but with good work-life balance. This gives me free time to pursue my passions. Now I'll grant some passions are demanding enough that you can't reasonably do it in your free time (e.g. certain types of academic research). Fortunately, the solution is to have multiple passions. Even if I have all the time in the world, it is not enough to pursue all my passions anyway. It's OK to pare it down to what is feasible, and it doesn't make me any less happy.
searine 10y ago
As someone who recently finished a post-doc and jumped ship to a more lucrative contractor position. None of that is worth the lowered income.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
nradov 10y ago
Come on it's just a video game not the Sistine Chapel. A few decades from now the games of today will be vanished and forgotten.
- mungoid 10y ago
  True. But I am pretty sure that the effort, passion, frustration, long nights, etc. that developers and designers put into those games are the same today as what Michelangelo went through while painting the ceiling. An impatient Pope constantly coming by wanting to see the progress, going from being a sculptor to a painter because of public pressure, hours upon hours of tedious and daunting tasks, so on. All while never knowing how it will turn out. Its obviously not a 1:1 comparison, but the emotions and feelings are the same is what im getting at ;-)
- zbuttram 10y ago
  Video games matter to many people, maybe not on the scale of a Sistine Chapel, sure, but there are legitimate efforts being made to preserve them like other works of art: https://gamehistory.org/who-we-are/ https://gamehistory.org/who-we-are/
- Cpoll 10y ago
  No, they are exactly the same. It's hard to find a GDC talk on Youtube where the creator of a game doesn't get teared up talking about the despair and elation they felt slaving over their game for four years. Try this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOlcB-JxkFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOlcB-JxkFw I also firmly believe there are games that won't be forgotten in a few decades.
  - lenocinor 10y ago
    Having watched a great number of these talks, I can say this isn't true. The devs are invested, sure. Chances are good they wouldn't be talking about it at GDC if they weren't. They definitely talk a lot about the ups and downs. But tearing up I've only seen once in a while; I remember that talk specifically because it was unusual.
  - 10y ago

BeetleB 10y ago

>The problem with the above story is that the engineer lost all connection to the project. It would be like allowing an artist to finish a painting 90% and then firing the artist and giving the painting to someone else. It's heartbreaking to hear. It's heartbreaking the first time I hear it. After the 100th time, the sentiment transforms to "Why did you allow yourself in this predicament?" And the answer is always "Passion". This story has been repeated over and over for the last 15 years. You can take this exact story to aspiring game developers and they'll say "I don't care. It's not about the money. I just want to make games. Even if I play a small role in the project I'll be satisfied" >You are certainly losing out on income, however in my experience have an immense amount of ownership and autonomy over the project. Many postdocs don't. They do the bidding of some faculty member. Many faculty members don't. Sure, on paper they do. But they'll all tell you about the work they cannot pursue because they can't get grant money for it. >If you get the boot you can take your project with you. Not true for some postdoc work. >You can publish code as free software or open source and your papers on open access pre-print services. Not true as a post doc. My advisor certainly forbade it. >Consider two orthogonal vectors: one is income earned and the other is your accomplishments. Ideally you want to maximize both, but failing that, different personalities often express different priorities over which one to maximize in a career. I completely agree with this, which is why I'm not sympathetic to the game developer, or with postdocs who regret spending so long in academia. They picked their priorities - it was not imposed on to them. And for many, later in their life, they feel they picked the "wrong" priorities.

EthanHeilman 10y ago
>I completely agree with this, which is why I'm not sympathetic to the game developer, or with postdocs who regret spending so long in academia. They picked their priorities - it was not imposed on to them. And for many, later in their life, they feel they picked the "wrong" priorities. I am sympathetic to them as we have all made bad decisions. I would argue that a neccessary pre-condition to "following your passion" is protecting that passion and pursuing a longterm strategy which allows you to develop that passion and maintain ownership over your work. Chasing passion is not an reason for failing to plan or for allowing others to walk all over you. Software engineers on the whole have sufficient power to not be at the mercy of bosses if they have the will to stand up for themselves. They owe it to themselves and to their limited lifespan to do so. Edit: I think we both are saying that, to the degree possible, people have a responsibility to themselves to not allow themselves to be exploited.
- mungoid 10y ago
  >And for many, later in their life, they feel they picked the "wrong" priorities. That, right there, is exactly what im feeling currently. It all started as a hobby some years ago and I got an opportunity to turn it into a career, so I did. I dont regret that time because I met some pretty amazing people and learned a TON about so many fascinating things. But I finally got fed up last year and left to do some freelancing work while I performed a 'Career-Shift'. Unfortunately, what I have come to realize is that its pretty difficult to switch from being a contract developer for 10 or so years. I dont know for sure, but I think, because I have the 'Jack of all trades, master of none' resume. It's highly demotivating. What should have stayed a hobby became a career, and now feel scorned because of it.
  - BeetleB 10y ago
    >What should have stayed a hobby became a career, and now feel scorned because of it. I think this statement sums it up. After a while, I figured out that for most jobs, following passion is too much of a risk. Even if it is aligned with my passions, any minor change (e.g. management decision) can make it a chore or much worse. It will never really be according to my vision. So I switched to a boring job but with good work-life balance. This gives me free time to pursue my passions. Now I'll grant some passions are demanding enough that you can't reasonably do it in your free time (e.g. certain types of academic research). Fortunately, the solution is to have multiple passions. Even if I have all the time in the world, it is not enough to pursue all my passions anyway. It's OK to pare it down to what is feasible, and it doesn't make me any less happy.

searine 10y ago

As someone who recently finished a post-doc and jumped ship to a more lucrative contractor position. None of that is worth the lowered income.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

nradov 10y ago

Come on it's just a video game not the Sistine Chapel. A few decades from now the games of today will be vanished and forgotten.

mungoid 10y ago
True. But I am pretty sure that the effort, passion, frustration, long nights, etc. that developers and designers put into those games are the same today as what Michelangelo went through while painting the ceiling. An impatient Pope constantly coming by wanting to see the progress, going from being a sculptor to a painter because of public pressure, hours upon hours of tedious and daunting tasks, so on. All while never knowing how it will turn out. Its obviously not a 1:1 comparison, but the emotions and feelings are the same is what im getting at ;-)
zbuttram 10y ago
Video games matter to many people, maybe not on the scale of a Sistine Chapel, sure, but there are legitimate efforts being made to preserve them like other works of art: https://gamehistory.org/who-we-are/ https://gamehistory.org/who-we-are/
Cpoll 10y ago
No, they are exactly the same. It's hard to find a GDC talk on Youtube where the creator of a game doesn't get teared up talking about the despair and elation they felt slaving over their game for four years. Try this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOlcB-JxkFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOlcB-JxkFw I also firmly believe there are games that won't be forgotten in a few decades.
- lenocinor 10y ago
  Having watched a great number of these talks, I can say this isn't true. The devs are invested, sure. Chances are good they wouldn't be talking about it at GDC if they weren't. They definitely talk a lot about the ups and downs. But tearing up I've only seen once in a while; I remember that talk specifically because it was unusual.
- 10y ago