6 ms·

Strange if that's the norm now too, some of the best games of the 90's seemed to all come out of dedicated teams who just loved their craft. In fact most of my

by TheGRS 10y ago

Strange if that's the norm now too, some of the best games of the 90's seemed to all come out of dedicated teams who just loved their craft. In fact most of my favorite games I could probably point to a development team that worked well together and cared about their projects and stuck together after a release. Its too bad, I like Rocket League's simple premise and execution (it basically builds off of some mods I used to play in Unreal Tournament 2004). If they brought some of the dedicated contractors on full time for their next project and fostered a great culture I'm sure it would help much more than the short-term gains they'll get by their current practice.

org3432 10y ago
I've worked with many contracting companies in gaming, not always, but it's not uncommon for contractors to produce higher quality work than employees and normally are more productive. I think employees tend to think that culture is what they're there for instead of producing IP, that's very common in gaming and perhaps one of the reasons execs need to bolster productivity with contractors.
- richforrester 10y ago
  I see where you're coming from but; > The guy poured his heart and soul into the project and was vested way beyond a paycheck ... so it's kinda sad when productivity isn't the reason.
- gambiting 10y ago
  Really? My experience with contractors(both in and out of gaming industry) is that they do the bare minimum required to keep the contract and still take 5-10x the daily wage of an employee. Employees(in my experience) usually care about the games they make, while contractors couldn't give any less damn about the project they work on, they are happy to switch with a days notice.
  - dawidw 10y ago
    So why do employers pay 5-10x for contractors?
    - reallydontask 10y ago
      I can't speak about gaming but for more general contracting the multiplier is 1.75 - 2.5x of a normal employee's salary There are a lot of reasons why employers hire contractors, some more valid than others. In my limited experience, it's rarely worth it, mostly because the relevant processes are never in place to ensure that loads of knowledge doesn't walk away with the contractor at the end of the contract edit: Should clarify that I'm in the UK.
      - dawidw 10y ago
        "There are a lot of reasons why employers hire contractors, some more valid than others." Could you elaborate on that, please? Thanks in advance!
        Jonnax 10y ago
        Off the top of my head I know that contractors don't get benefits such as holidays, pensions and other employee benefits. Their contracts have an expiration so they're easier to get rid of on short notice. Also they are treated as capital expenditure versus operational expenditure. And I believe that you can do some accounting that is beneficial tax wise to a company. This is a UK perspective.
        hnal943 10y ago
        Yep, those are the reasons in the US also.
        reallydontask 10y ago
        On demand labour On demand skills higher skillset misallocation of internal resources internal politics hanging on to yearly budgets I could probably think of a few more Some of the above are perceived by PHBs types as there is always a finite pool of people with the skillset that is needed for the job at the skill level required etc...
- kodfodrasz 10y ago
  Games are not simple products. Except for AAA titles (which are often the gaming equivalent of the annual superhero movie) games need something special, some soul to be successfull. Without dedicated team pouring some of their personality into the game this will not happen. This is why I still play many older AAA games, yet only a few current AAA games, though my machine has enough HP for any current title. Yet current indie games often have this extra, and are on my menu. You can run a game factory like this, but this inflates the product line on the long run. Only managers will stay, and ideas will not blossom, only the management will execute the same reciepes over and over, and eventually customers will not come without insane sales campaigns.
  - Jare 10y ago
    I do not understand why AAA would be lumped together in such a soulless bag. Like superhero movies, some are done by the numbers, some are done without inspiration, some without talent, and yet some are brimming with soul, passion and dedication. That outcome is usually defined by their leaders and context; AAA games, blockbuster movies, and large productions in general, by nature don't let most of the individual developers' souls show visibly in the final product, but that soul is very much in there. "Many older AAA games yet only a few current AAA games" I suspect is more due to rose-tinted glasses and survivor bias. There was plenty of crap back then, and plenty of greatness today.
    - douche 10y ago
      Because when people say AAA, often they are talking about the cookie-cutter, churn-it-out yearly titles, like FIFA and Madden and Call of Duty. The other comparison with Hollywood is the unrelenting sequelitis. It's even reached the point now where game developers are planning trilogies from the start, like StarCraft II and Medieval Total War: Warhammer.
      - dkersten 10y ago
        When I hear most people say AAA, they tend to mean "big budget" (which usually implies fancy graphics, big musical scores, voice acting, mocap etc -- things that lower budget games can't afford).
- jlebrech 10y ago
  if you're a contractor being ask to do things out of your remit seems like a loss maker to an employer. but when you're salaried they tend to think they know you and give you things outside of your job spec more readily.
- Sharlin 10y ago
  > I think employees tend to think that culture is what they're there for instead of producing IP Yeah, how dare they...
mungoid 10y ago
Nah, I dont think its strange in this day and age. To me it's infuriating, but it is all about that bottom line, man. Maximize profits, lower overhead, vertical acuity, do more with less, faster, more, grow grow grow! Plus if you contract out work and that company screws up, you can deflect blame to them. That happened at least a couple times where I used to work. Most companies today seem to only care about being the largest in the industry. Because, I'm guessing shareholders or greed or something, I dont know for sure. It's almost impossible to find a company that wants to just stay within their means. Grow to the optimal size you can manage and coast. I assume its because those kind of companies would get run over by their competition if they didnt keep growing, but im not sure. I used to aspire to have a super successful and huge game company. But after seeing all the insider crap that goes into game development, I think I'll be happiest with just doing my own thing and having trusted colleagues that will come in on projects to help out.
georgeecollins 10y ago
As a member of one of those dedicated teams that created games that I hope you tried or liked, I can explain that the industry is very different now from a technical and artistic perspective. In those days roles were being invented and were often blurred. Technology was almost always created from scratch. Tools for art and level building were often created from scratch. Even if you wanted to build your own engine, the technology to share code and art is so advanced you would be foolish not to take advantage of it. Sharing is just much easier now. People are more specialized and interchangeable. Outsourcing the work to where it can be done best for the best price makes sense. We would have done it that way in the '90s, if it would have worked. Now it does.

by TheGRS 10y ago

org3432 10y ago

I've worked with many contracting companies in gaming, not always, but it's not uncommon for contractors to produce higher quality work than employees and normally are more productive. I think employees tend to think that culture is what they're there for instead of producing IP, that's very common in gaming and perhaps one of the reasons execs need to bolster productivity with contractors.

richforrester 10y ago
I see where you're coming from but; > The guy poured his heart and soul into the project and was vested way beyond a paycheck ... so it's kinda sad when productivity isn't the reason.
gambiting 10y ago
Really? My experience with contractors(both in and out of gaming industry) is that they do the bare minimum required to keep the contract and still take 5-10x the daily wage of an employee. Employees(in my experience) usually care about the games they make, while contractors couldn't give any less damn about the project they work on, they are happy to switch with a days notice.
- dawidw 10y ago
  So why do employers pay 5-10x for contractors?
  - reallydontask 10y ago
    I can't speak about gaming but for more general contracting the multiplier is 1.75 - 2.5x of a normal employee's salary There are a lot of reasons why employers hire contractors, some more valid than others. In my limited experience, it's rarely worth it, mostly because the relevant processes are never in place to ensure that loads of knowledge doesn't walk away with the contractor at the end of the contract edit: Should clarify that I'm in the UK.
    - dawidw 10y ago
      "There are a lot of reasons why employers hire contractors, some more valid than others." Could you elaborate on that, please? Thanks in advance!
      - Jonnax 10y ago
        Off the top of my head I know that contractors don't get benefits such as holidays, pensions and other employee benefits. Their contracts have an expiration so they're easier to get rid of on short notice. Also they are treated as capital expenditure versus operational expenditure. And I believe that you can do some accounting that is beneficial tax wise to a company. This is a UK perspective.
        hnal943 10y ago
        Yep, those are the reasons in the US also.
      - reallydontask 10y ago
        On demand labour On demand skills higher skillset misallocation of internal resources internal politics hanging on to yearly budgets I could probably think of a few more Some of the above are perceived by PHBs types as there is always a finite pool of people with the skillset that is needed for the job at the skill level required etc...
kodfodrasz 10y ago
Games are not simple products. Except for AAA titles (which are often the gaming equivalent of the annual superhero movie) games need something special, some soul to be successfull. Without dedicated team pouring some of their personality into the game this will not happen. This is why I still play many older AAA games, yet only a few current AAA games, though my machine has enough HP for any current title. Yet current indie games often have this extra, and are on my menu. You can run a game factory like this, but this inflates the product line on the long run. Only managers will stay, and ideas will not blossom, only the management will execute the same reciepes over and over, and eventually customers will not come without insane sales campaigns.
- Jare 10y ago
  I do not understand why AAA would be lumped together in such a soulless bag. Like superhero movies, some are done by the numbers, some are done without inspiration, some without talent, and yet some are brimming with soul, passion and dedication. That outcome is usually defined by their leaders and context; AAA games, blockbuster movies, and large productions in general, by nature don't let most of the individual developers' souls show visibly in the final product, but that soul is very much in there. "Many older AAA games yet only a few current AAA games" I suspect is more due to rose-tinted glasses and survivor bias. There was plenty of crap back then, and plenty of greatness today.
  - douche 10y ago
    Because when people say AAA, often they are talking about the cookie-cutter, churn-it-out yearly titles, like FIFA and Madden and Call of Duty. The other comparison with Hollywood is the unrelenting sequelitis. It's even reached the point now where game developers are planning trilogies from the start, like StarCraft II and Medieval Total War: Warhammer.
    - dkersten 10y ago
      When I hear most people say AAA, they tend to mean "big budget" (which usually implies fancy graphics, big musical scores, voice acting, mocap etc -- things that lower budget games can't afford).
jlebrech 10y ago
if you're a contractor being ask to do things out of your remit seems like a loss maker to an employer. but when you're salaried they tend to think they know you and give you things outside of your job spec more readily.
Sharlin 10y ago
> I think employees tend to think that culture is what they're there for instead of producing IP Yeah, how dare they...

mungoid 10y ago

Nah, I dont think its strange in this day and age. To me it's infuriating, but it is all about that bottom line, man. Maximize profits, lower overhead, vertical acuity, do more with less, faster, more, grow grow grow! Plus if you contract out work and that company screws up, you can deflect blame to them. That happened at least a couple times where I used to work. Most companies today seem to only care about being the largest in the industry. Because, I'm guessing shareholders or greed or something, I dont know for sure. It's almost impossible to find a company that wants to just stay within their means. Grow to the optimal size you can manage and coast. I assume its because those kind of companies would get run over by their competition if they didnt keep growing, but im not sure. I used to aspire to have a super successful and huge game company. But after seeing all the insider crap that goes into game development, I think I'll be happiest with just doing my own thing and having trusted colleagues that will come in on projects to help out.

georgeecollins 10y ago

As a member of one of those dedicated teams that created games that I hope you tried or liked, I can explain that the industry is very different now from a technical and artistic perspective. In those days roles were being invented and were often blurred. Technology was almost always created from scratch. Tools for art and level building were often created from scratch. Even if you wanted to build your own engine, the technology to share code and art is so advanced you would be foolish not to take advantage of it. Sharing is just much easier now. People are more specialized and interchangeable. Outsourcing the work to where it can be done best for the best price makes sense. We would have done it that way in the '90s, if it would have worked. Now it does.