12 ms·

'My Airbnb flat was turned into a pop-up brothel'

95 points by kristianc 10y ago

dandare 10y ago
The only problem I see here is the criminalization of prostitution.
- anjc 10y ago
  You of course are so open minded that you see no problem in cleaning up stranger's piles of used condoms, or having them strewn about your house. Just part of a regular day in dandare's world. Edit: Look at everybody pretending that cleaning up dozens of men's bodily ejections after they used your house as a brothel is just one of life's little chores. You've all spent too long on Reddit.
  - bingomad123 10y ago
    Cleaning up reasonable trash is pretty much part of AirBnb host's job. So if a women throws her sanitary pads/tampoons in the trash will you call them names too ?
    - camus2 10y ago
      What about the clients? do you really think it's a great environment for families? Once a place becomes a well known prostitution hub, it attracts a specific kind of people, and not the good ones.
      - 2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
        Sex work is legal/decriminalised in Sydney. If you come from a country where it is illegal, you might be surprised how open it is around here. And right next to family friendly establishments, residential areas. It's pretty safe actually. Or at least no more dangerous than other parts of Sydney. I've never heard of any crimes or violence related to sex workers in Sydney. I'm more worried about alcohol and drug related violence. If there are any unsavoury characters about they are much more likely to be at a night club. Ban night clubs (they kind of did that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_lockout_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_lockout_laws and it worked).
      - ACow_Adonis 10y ago
        CEOs? Businessmen? Politicians? Founders? The physically disabled? Nervous silly college kids? Cheaters? Low lifes? I've got news for you, they might visit the brothels, but they live out in the burbs near you :P They live near all of us. Perhaps I'm just jaded/acclimatised from having worked in the suburb of Fyshwick in Canberra (where operating a brothel/in-home prostitution is quite common), knew there were prostitutes regularly working out of hotels/their own houses, and I'm pretty sure there's probably a couple of brothels around where I live. Honestly, I can't say I keep track of them...I can't say they're even on my mental radar... Don't misunderstand me, i know there are a significant number of people who wouldn't want to raise children in such an environment. But it doesn't bother me, nor the other families living here, and the general property prices around here suggest it doesn't sufficiently bother most of the people who live here :\ But I also knew prostitutes were working frequently out of suburban homes and hotels, so i'm a bit "you're not actually that far from prostitutes..." to all my suburban friends.
      - bingomad123 10y ago
        > it's a great environment for families And why would anyone care if it is great environment for families ? Are US suburbs great environment for families where Ms. X who has 4 kids all from different people living with her boyfriend ? Is that a good environment ?
    - anjc 10y ago
      Maybe yeah. It would rightly depend on how correctly and securely she disposes of her waste. Why are you trying to finagle a woman's analogous example as if that'll shame me into changing my mind...these prostitutes were women.
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    People who aren't prostitutes also have sex in hotels you know. Not cleaning up after themselves is a valid complaint but doesn't seem something specific to prostitutes.
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      Higher rates of STD's however... I'm all for legalization, but if you run a brothel out of my place I'm going to be seriously pissed off and not just get all libertarian about it. I will after all, have rented under non-commercial grounds anyway; I'd be pissed if you ran a pop-up restaurant there too.
      - foldr 10y ago
        This STD argument is silly. You aren't going to get an STD from cleaning up used condoms.
        M_Grey 10y ago
        Hep C is more than able to survive outside of the body (especially in a little pocket of nutrient-rich fluids) for quite some time (as in weeks). I grant you the odds of contracting it from even sexual contact, never mind casual contact with a condom is extremely low, but it's still a fucking biohazard you shouldn't have to deal with. The odds of being struck and killed by a bullet fired up into the air is vanishingly small too, but it's happened, and since it's unconscionable to randomly discharge your firearm into the air, it's unacceptable too. Needless to say, when you don't intend to rent your home out as a business, it's equally unacceptable if someone decides to use it as one. Edit: I... just realized how Freudian my analogy of "discharging firearms into the air" is. I really should get more sleep.
        foldr 10y ago
        It's an insignificant risk. Virtually zero if you just use ordinary cleaning gloves. It surely can't be the risk of infection that is the issue here.
  - gambiting 10y ago
    It's literally the bread and butter of working in a hotel. I don't see hotels complaining that their rooms are being used for sleeping with prostitutes or sex in general. I wouldn't expect guests of AirBnB to not do anything they would do in a hotel - after all you are attracting the same audience. Bottom line - if they left a mess, then call a cleaning company and charge the guests a cleaning fee. Pretty much every AirBnB has a cleaning fee in terms of rental. Would the reaction here be any different if an actual couple left the host with a pile of condoms? If yes,why? If no, why?
    - anjc 10y ago
      Cleaning up after a prostitute's night of work is not the bread and butter of working in a hotel, and I'm sure that you would see staff and owners complaining about it if you talked to them.
      - vertex-four 10y ago
        Cleaning up rather horrible messes of things people would rather not touch is, in fact, normal, albeit not the norm (i.e. it happens on a regular enough basis that it's not anything special, but most rooms are relatively ok).
        anjc 10y ago
        Oh yeah of course, but I'm sure hotel owners and staff don't just tut and laugh and go "the prostitutes again haha", and don't particularly enjoy cleaning up after people who've used your facilities to make a lot of money illegally. As in...they'd turn down the custom if they could.
        vertex-four 10y ago
        Sure, but if you have facilities open to the public you're going to get... the public. It's hardly just prostitutes that leave rooms in a state, after all. It's something you plan for, and you don't get to whine about having failed to plan for it.
  - ACow_Adonis 10y ago
    Regular AirBnB guests would never partake in anything involving alcohol, perfume, or...god forbid...sexual congress and spillage/transfer of bodily fluids while holidaying in my apartment! Because, not to be too snarky, yes, that actually does seem like a regular day in the operation of an accommodation business. I've even heard it rumored guests might leave the toilet in a less than pristine state... The horror! /ok, that was a bit snarky, but my point stands.
    - camus2 10y ago
      > Regular AirBnB guests would never partake in anything involving alcohol, perfume, or...god forbid...sexual congress and spillage/transfer of bodily fluids while holidaying in my apartment! At least you can track who they are. That's entirely different from a guest setting up a gang bang in an apartment rented on Airbnb.
      - literallycancer 10y ago
        If a tourist rents a room, goes out to have fun and brings a girl back, you can still track only 1 person (and that's assuming they provided their real ID).
  - Fifer82 10y ago
    He is welcome not to rent out his home. It isn't up to me to get the violins out.
  - bambax 10y ago
    I don't understand your argument at all. If you rent your house to strangers then you're obviously okay with those people having sex at your place, in your bed, anywhere really where they fancy it. What's different if it's prostitution or if it isn't?? (Personally I would really prefer not having anyone I don't know engaging in any normal activity in my home, and that's why I will probably never be an Airbnb host; but if you are then surely you have to accept the consequences?)
    - DanBC 10y ago
      The quantity of the cleanup; the increased risk of infected product; the increased risk of complaints from neighbours; the increased legal risk of running a brothel; etc. In this specific case it's not illegal for a woman to sell sex; it's not illegal for a woman to sell sex from a brothel; it is illegal to keep a brothel; or to let a property be used as a brothel.
      - yummyfajitas 10y ago
        The increased risk of disease/volume would also be true of a gay couple (statistically a vastly higher risk of HIV) with high stamina. Would you be similarly sympathetic if someone complained about such a situation? If not, this suggests your stated reasoning is faulty.
        anjc 10y ago
        You think people should be sympathetic in the case that somebody chooses to put their health at risk via infection, just because the perpetrator is gay? Somebody has faulty reasoning here and it's not the poster you replied too.
        foldr 10y ago
        Never thought I'd agree with yummyfajitas on anything, but you are missing his point entirely. Statistically, gay men are more likely to be HIV+ than the general population. Thus if a gay couple who were having safe sex in your apartment left behind lots of used condoms, there would statistically be a higher probability that those condoms contained HIV+ semen than with a couple chosen at random from the whole population. It has nothing to do with people deliberately engaging in risky behavior. For the sake of argument, we might say that the HIV+ person in the couple contracted HIV as the result of a date rape. (Not that I in any way endorse your judgmental suggestion that most people who get HIV somehow deserve it.)
  - 9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
    a) Cleaning up after strangers is part of renting out your living space through AirBnB. b) Please cite where in the article (which copiously and obviously employs hyperbole) it says that condoms were 'strewn about [the] house' Re: your edit - Stop pulling fictions figures out of thin air: Where in the article does it say dozens? Where does it say bodily ejections (apart from the description of the garbage overflowing with 'tissues and condoms'? - "Look at everybody pretending that cleaning up dozens of men's bodily ejections after they used your house as a brothel is just one of life's little chores." -- No one is saying that. First of all, look up the definition of brothel. It is somewhere that commonly/frequently plays host to prostitution. Escorts ALLEGEDLY using an apartment for sex over the span of tow nights does not a brothel make. Secondly, this is not 'one of life's little chores' because in the course of most people's lives, they do not rent out their apartments sight unseen to strangers over the internet. Yes, AirBnB is cool, and yes, you can use it to make extra money if you wish. But stop pretending like AirBnB hosts don't knowingly take on risk by making their apartment available to literally anyone who signs up on the site. They get paid for it and AirBnB have an insurance policy. What if a single couple had rented the apartment and left it in the same state after having non-stop sex? Could the host complain in the same way?
  - AlexAffe 10y ago
    Bin overflowing. A wrapper under the bed. Hey, we're not talking about used needles and shit stains on the wall. This was a civilized night, they used protection, had some good wine and Prosecco... There is really nothing wrong with that, other than it might be a grayzone in airbnbs terms and the criminalization of prostitution...
    - anjc 10y ago
      I wouldn't give two shits whether they used protection or not and couldn't care less if they ruin their life with drugs. They underhandedly used a person's house for illegal activity and left the owner to clean up afterwards. There's really no excusing it by trying to make it seem like a bunch of kids having a cool fun time. And the criminalisation of prostitution isn't a grey area, it's the law in that jurisdiction.
      - foldr 10y ago
        >And the criminalisation of prostitution isn't a grey area, it's the law in that jurisdiction. No. Prostitution per se is not against the law in the UK (except in Northern Ireland).
        anjc 10y ago
        The prostitute might not be culpable for the sexual act itself but every activity surrounding prostitution is illegal. Soliciting, using a brothel, pimping, paying a prostitute etc. There's no getting around the fact that this guy's place was used for illegal activity.
        foldr 10y ago
        No, paying a prostitute is not illegal in the UK. As for the rest, that's why the OP said "grey area". It's not entirely clear that they were doing any of the other stuff. See e.g. the 'legality' section in the following Wikipedia article. It's not black and white whether or not anything illegal was going on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soho_walk-up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soho_walk-up
  - Mandatum 10y ago
    Rent your house like a hotel, expect it to be treated as such. This isn't some family-friendly, socio-do-gooder website - it's AirBnB. They rent, they stay, they leave. Nothing was damaged in the apartment, I don't see the issue. If you don't like the mess, give a bad rating.
- DanBC 10y ago
  This is England where people having sex for money is not illegal. Running a brothel is illegal, which is what the property owner is worried about.
- zeroer 10y ago
  I agree that it's not as big a deal as the host is making it out to be. People drink and have sex in hotels and AirBnB listings all the time. But it's worth pointing out that AirBnB requires that you declare the number of people using the apartment (because it affects pricing). The house rules might also state that only registered guests are allowed in, though it's hard to say without seeing the house rules for this specific listing.
tnr23 10y ago
cry me a river. you have to take this into account if you rent out your place.
anjc 10y ago
I love it when people think they have a simple solution to something, but gradually converge onto the complicated solution that they were trying to avoid. Like "why is this C++ sockets implementation 30k LOC....I could write that in 300 lines. Oh wait better add some error checking. Hm I wonder if I should test for endianness" etc etc. They should have security for this Airbnb thing for situations like this.
illuminati1911 10y ago
What's the problem here? Did they leave the apartments uncleaned or...? One of the biggest human rights insults around the world is making prostitution illegal. 1) It's not governments business what people do with their bodies. 2) People are going to do it anyway (even in countries where it is punished with a death penalty) 3) ...and therefore women and men working in this industry won't have access to unions, healthcare, safety etc.
- vosper 10y ago
  Clearly you didn't read the article at all: they left used condoms, tissues, and empty bottles of wine all over the apartment. The owner had to clean it up, which was probably quite gross for him. That actually seems to be a big part of his complaint - he even says that if they hadn't made a mess he wouldn't have known what had happened, and would have probably accepted a repeat booking. I agree with your points, but consider reading TFA at least.
  - petre 10y ago
    It's part of the trade when you run lodging spaces. Hotels also clean up after their customers.
    - csydas 10y ago
      Well, strictly speaking AirBnB is not a hotel. Likewise, you're supposed to abide by house rules. I have no idea what the author had set for their rental, but I have yet to see an AirBnB posting that didn't ask that you please keep the place tidy. Given the enthusiastic response I got from my last host when my partner and I took the time to give the apartment a once-over when we left, I'm guessing that this is a persistent problem where guests just leave a place trashed. Some cleaning is obviously anticipated by the cleaning fees; you wash the linens, still give the place a good scrubbing between guests, etc., but I think it's fair to expect the guests to tidy up a little if you're upfront that this is part of the agreement on the listing. Likewise, even hotels will charge for outrageous damage or messes to their properties. Security deposits in the US for even really cheap hotels are pretty common, usually requiring a credit card with a $100 charge that is cancelled/returned later.
camus2 10y ago
> (...) my next-door neighbour saw it, made a complaint against me and I was evicted from my family home. I would do exactly the same thing as her neighbor. Why? because even if I know that person , I don't know how fucked up the clients are and I wouldn't want to live in a building where people come and go to have sex with hookers, especially if there are kids around.
- robryk 10y ago
  I'm curious: would you feed the same way about an apartment that is often rented via AirBnb?
- watter 10y ago
  Would you have the same problem with a single person who is sexually active? I've been single most of my adult life so you'd basically be calling the cops on me for being a regular citizen doing legal things.
  - draw_down 10y ago
    No, apparently, when money is exchanged between parties, that's when sex becomes wrong and bad.
  - camus2 10y ago
    There is a difference between a couple that is sexually active living in a building and a brothel.
curiousgal 10y ago
>And until we decriminalise sex work, sex workers will never be safe by not being able to work in pairs. This is probably the most ridiculous argument I've heard for the decriminalization of prostitution.
- DanBC 10y ago
  In England sex workers are not allowed to "run a brothel". A brothel (in English law) is a place where two or more women offer sex. http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/prostitution_and_exploitation_of_prostitution/#a14 http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/prostitution_and_exploita... > the definition of a brothel in English law does not require that the premises are used for the purposes of prostitution since a brothel exists wherever more than one woman offers sexual intercourse, whether for payment or not. This means that sex workers who want to charge people for money (a legal activity in England) can't do it by sharing a property (illegal), but have to do it on the street. Whatever your views on sex work it should be clear that street sex work is more dangerous than that offered in a private residence.
- robryk 10y ago
  According to the article in UK it's legal to offer sex for money, as long as you're the only person doing it in a particular location (because otherwise the location is a brothel and operating a brothel is a criminal offense). In light of this that statement makes much more sense.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    It's even legal to sell sex for money in a brothel, so long as you're not the one operating it. http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/prostitution_and_exploitation_of_prostitution/#a14 http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/prostitution_and_exploita... > It is not illegal to sell sex at a brothel provided the sex worker is not involved in management or control of the brothel. A house occupied by one woman and used by her alone for prostitution, is not a brothel (Gorman v Standen, Palace Clarke v Standen (1964) 48 Cr App R 30).
    - 10y ago
vmateixeira 10y ago
I see no different behaviour from what can happen on an hotel... and I don't see hotels complaining...
- DanBC 10y ago
  Hotels do complain about sex workers, because they're in some legal risk if they allow it to happen. There's also a slightly increased risk of infected material from sex workers rather than the general population. The core activity (people exchanging sex for money) probably doesn't need to be illegal (and isn't under English law). But the English law is a mess, and criminalises a bunch of stuff around this activity, while still leaving vulnerable people unprotected.
vertex-four 10y ago
Could I point out that this is the dreadful sort of "display two viewpoints, provide almost no commentary, and call it balanced" article the BBC is known for.
devdoomari 10y ago
does airbnb have options like 'no-uh-oh-ing'? Even apartment rents have options like 'no-pets', so it's quite straightforward to have hosts enforce some rules. (and have search option with 'without-uh-oh-forbidden')
- iraklism 10y ago
  Yes, just after the no-breathing option.
- GavinMcG 10y ago
  Is "uh-oh" slang for sex? I've never heard it, and while it's a clear guess from context what you mean, I'm having a hard time connecting the typical meaning of "uh-oh" with sex.
AlexAffe 10y ago
Pinot Grigio, Prosecco, bin overflowing with used condoms... Let this guy give me their contact, I could use a night like that.
logicallee 10y ago
Kudos for the BBC for finding this second subject (the bottom half of the article) and presenting both sides, as well as the inset "What is the law in the UK?" which I didn't know. This is a really strong and extremely balanced story where two sides speak for themselves through quotes. (I'd tell the author myself but I can't see a byline.) Does anyone here know, what does Charlotte mean at the end with "I would never go on tour on my own to a new place that I've never been to before. No way. Because there is no safety agency or union out there that I can tell where I am or what I'm doing." What are these unions or safety agencies, formal or informal? (And why can't Charlotte find one in a city she tours in?) If the reason they can't be found is that they're kind of operating outside of the law, like informal "protection" services then this would explain why she can only find it in a city she knows well - but that is not what "safety agency or union" means to me at all. So what are these things?
- aphexbr 10y ago
  I presume she means there's no such thing for the type of work she does. That is, if she did something else those things would be available to her, but they aren't for her line of work. So, she has to depend on pre-existing relationship with people who can protect her where she is.
  - logicallee 10y ago
    Oh, you are right - I think that I misread it. They must have meant that there is no such thing as a safety agency or union - not on tour, not anywhere. It is kind of weird that she has such a specific term in mind ("safety agency or union") for something that doesn't exist -- you would think she would phrase it as, "It's not like there are unions or anything else protecting workers." Perhaps she would like to see such institutions. (The article says she was part of a documentary, which the article links here -- http://www.devonlive.com/love-sale-exeter-escort-appears-channel-4/story-21028598-detail/story.html http://www.devonlive.com/love-sale-exeter-escort-appears-cha... ). Thanks.
- DanBC 10y ago
  There are initiatives such as "ugly mugs" which share details about dangerous clients: https://uknswp.org/um/ https://uknswp.org/um/
return0 10y ago
All i see is airbnb disrupting the real estate market. No more shady 'red light' districts, brothels can be everywhere.
BlindWanderer 10y ago
Can confirm. No hotel wants this, increased chance of breakages and noise complaints. Parties are worse. Airbnb is pretty ideal.
matzos 10y ago
How good were the girls?
vezycash 10y ago
The flat was used to shoot porn videos - most likely.
sauronlord 10y ago
Hotels have been used like this forever. People run their homes like hotels and are shocked to find that people treat it as such.
al_chemist 10y ago
tl;dr Guy rented his apartment then he was horrified that someone had sex and drunk alcohol there. He called police and since they didn't call him back, now he want to sell whole place, because while he loves it, it's not worth it anymore. What?
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Danny Dyer built a new home and then promptly sold it because he believed that it was haunted. People are really, really irrational much of the time.
elymar 10y ago
Airtna
elymar 10y ago
Airtna
Mz 10y ago
And basically what I had to do was pick all that up with my hands. Because England has yet to get up to speed with surgical gloves or similar. They just cannot be found. At all. Sure. The way this part is written: Looking at both their ads, some of the rates were about £1,300 a night. So if they were fully booked for the two nights that's £2,600 each - £5,200 in total. The feeling was a bit like when I had to rush home from work a couple of years ago because I thought I'd left a tea towel on the hob. It felt like the place was burning down. This reads to me like he was basically horrified at the idea of two women making excellent money, probably a lot more than he makes. That is how that part reads to me.

95 points by kristianc 10y ago

dandare 10y ago

The only problem I see here is the criminalization of prostitution.

anjc 10y ago
You of course are so open minded that you see no problem in cleaning up stranger's piles of used condoms, or having them strewn about your house. Just part of a regular day in dandare's world. Edit: Look at everybody pretending that cleaning up dozens of men's bodily ejections after they used your house as a brothel is just one of life's little chores. You've all spent too long on Reddit.
- bingomad123 10y ago
  Cleaning up reasonable trash is pretty much part of AirBnb host's job. So if a women throws her sanitary pads/tampoons in the trash will you call them names too ?
  - camus2 10y ago
    What about the clients? do you really think it's a great environment for families? Once a place becomes a well known prostitution hub, it attracts a specific kind of people, and not the good ones.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
      Sex work is legal/decriminalised in Sydney. If you come from a country where it is illegal, you might be surprised how open it is around here. And right next to family friendly establishments, residential areas. It's pretty safe actually. Or at least no more dangerous than other parts of Sydney. I've never heard of any crimes or violence related to sex workers in Sydney. I'm more worried about alcohol and drug related violence. If there are any unsavoury characters about they are much more likely to be at a night club. Ban night clubs (they kind of did that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_lockout_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_lockout_laws and it worked).
    - ACow_Adonis 10y ago
      CEOs? Businessmen? Politicians? Founders? The physically disabled? Nervous silly college kids? Cheaters? Low lifes? I've got news for you, they might visit the brothels, but they live out in the burbs near you :P They live near all of us. Perhaps I'm just jaded/acclimatised from having worked in the suburb of Fyshwick in Canberra (where operating a brothel/in-home prostitution is quite common), knew there were prostitutes regularly working out of hotels/their own houses, and I'm pretty sure there's probably a couple of brothels around where I live. Honestly, I can't say I keep track of them...I can't say they're even on my mental radar... Don't misunderstand me, i know there are a significant number of people who wouldn't want to raise children in such an environment. But it doesn't bother me, nor the other families living here, and the general property prices around here suggest it doesn't sufficiently bother most of the people who live here :\ But I also knew prostitutes were working frequently out of suburban homes and hotels, so i'm a bit "you're not actually that far from prostitutes..." to all my suburban friends.
    - bingomad123 10y ago
      > it's a great environment for families And why would anyone care if it is great environment for families ? Are US suburbs great environment for families where Ms. X who has 4 kids all from different people living with her boyfriend ? Is that a good environment ?
  - anjc 10y ago
    Maybe yeah. It would rightly depend on how correctly and securely she disposes of her waste. Why are you trying to finagle a woman's analogous example as if that'll shame me into changing my mind...these prostitutes were women.
- kalleboo 10y ago
  People who aren't prostitutes also have sex in hotels you know. Not cleaning up after themselves is a valid complaint but doesn't seem something specific to prostitutes.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    Higher rates of STD's however... I'm all for legalization, but if you run a brothel out of my place I'm going to be seriously pissed off and not just get all libertarian about it. I will after all, have rented under non-commercial grounds anyway; I'd be pissed if you ran a pop-up restaurant there too.
    - foldr 10y ago
      This STD argument is silly. You aren't going to get an STD from cleaning up used condoms.
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        Hep C is more than able to survive outside of the body (especially in a little pocket of nutrient-rich fluids) for quite some time (as in weeks). I grant you the odds of contracting it from even sexual contact, never mind casual contact with a condom is extremely low, but it's still a fucking biohazard you shouldn't have to deal with. The odds of being struck and killed by a bullet fired up into the air is vanishingly small too, but it's happened, and since it's unconscionable to randomly discharge your firearm into the air, it's unacceptable too. Needless to say, when you don't intend to rent your home out as a business, it's equally unacceptable if someone decides to use it as one. Edit: I... just realized how Freudian my analogy of "discharging firearms into the air" is. I really should get more sleep.
        foldr 10y ago
        It's an insignificant risk. Virtually zero if you just use ordinary cleaning gloves. It surely can't be the risk of infection that is the issue here.
- gambiting 10y ago
  It's literally the bread and butter of working in a hotel. I don't see hotels complaining that their rooms are being used for sleeping with prostitutes or sex in general. I wouldn't expect guests of AirBnB to not do anything they would do in a hotel - after all you are attracting the same audience. Bottom line - if they left a mess, then call a cleaning company and charge the guests a cleaning fee. Pretty much every AirBnB has a cleaning fee in terms of rental. Would the reaction here be any different if an actual couple left the host with a pile of condoms? If yes,why? If no, why?
  - anjc 10y ago
    Cleaning up after a prostitute's night of work is not the bread and butter of working in a hotel, and I'm sure that you would see staff and owners complaining about it if you talked to them.
    - vertex-four 10y ago
      Cleaning up rather horrible messes of things people would rather not touch is, in fact, normal, albeit not the norm (i.e. it happens on a regular enough basis that it's not anything special, but most rooms are relatively ok).
      - anjc 10y ago
        Oh yeah of course, but I'm sure hotel owners and staff don't just tut and laugh and go "the prostitutes again haha", and don't particularly enjoy cleaning up after people who've used your facilities to make a lot of money illegally. As in...they'd turn down the custom if they could.
        vertex-four 10y ago
        Sure, but if you have facilities open to the public you're going to get... the public. It's hardly just prostitutes that leave rooms in a state, after all. It's something you plan for, and you don't get to whine about having failed to plan for it.
- ACow_Adonis 10y ago
  Regular AirBnB guests would never partake in anything involving alcohol, perfume, or...god forbid...sexual congress and spillage/transfer of bodily fluids while holidaying in my apartment! Because, not to be too snarky, yes, that actually does seem like a regular day in the operation of an accommodation business. I've even heard it rumored guests might leave the toilet in a less than pristine state... The horror! /ok, that was a bit snarky, but my point stands.
  - camus2 10y ago
    > Regular AirBnB guests would never partake in anything involving alcohol, perfume, or...god forbid...sexual congress and spillage/transfer of bodily fluids while holidaying in my apartment! At least you can track who they are. That's entirely different from a guest setting up a gang bang in an apartment rented on Airbnb.
    - literallycancer 10y ago
      If a tourist rents a room, goes out to have fun and brings a girl back, you can still track only 1 person (and that's assuming they provided their real ID).
- Fifer82 10y ago
  He is welcome not to rent out his home. It isn't up to me to get the violins out.
- bambax 10y ago
  I don't understand your argument at all. If you rent your house to strangers then you're obviously okay with those people having sex at your place, in your bed, anywhere really where they fancy it. What's different if it's prostitution or if it isn't?? (Personally I would really prefer not having anyone I don't know engaging in any normal activity in my home, and that's why I will probably never be an Airbnb host; but if you are then surely you have to accept the consequences?)
  - DanBC 10y ago
    The quantity of the cleanup; the increased risk of infected product; the increased risk of complaints from neighbours; the increased legal risk of running a brothel; etc. In this specific case it's not illegal for a woman to sell sex; it's not illegal for a woman to sell sex from a brothel; it is illegal to keep a brothel; or to let a property be used as a brothel.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      The increased risk of disease/volume would also be true of a gay couple (statistically a vastly higher risk of HIV) with high stamina. Would you be similarly sympathetic if someone complained about such a situation? If not, this suggests your stated reasoning is faulty.
      - anjc 10y ago
        You think people should be sympathetic in the case that somebody chooses to put their health at risk via infection, just because the perpetrator is gay? Somebody has faulty reasoning here and it's not the poster you replied too.
        foldr 10y ago
        Never thought I'd agree with yummyfajitas on anything, but you are missing his point entirely. Statistically, gay men are more likely to be HIV+ than the general population. Thus if a gay couple who were having safe sex in your apartment left behind lots of used condoms, there would statistically be a higher probability that those condoms contained HIV+ semen than with a couple chosen at random from the whole population. It has nothing to do with people deliberately engaging in risky behavior. For the sake of argument, we might say that the HIV+ person in the couple contracted HIV as the result of a date rape. (Not that I in any way endorse your judgmental suggestion that most people who get HIV somehow deserve it.)
- 9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
  a) Cleaning up after strangers is part of renting out your living space through AirBnB. b) Please cite where in the article (which copiously and obviously employs hyperbole) it says that condoms were 'strewn about [the] house' Re: your edit - Stop pulling fictions figures out of thin air: Where in the article does it say dozens? Where does it say bodily ejections (apart from the description of the garbage overflowing with 'tissues and condoms'? - "Look at everybody pretending that cleaning up dozens of men's bodily ejections after they used your house as a brothel is just one of life's little chores." -- No one is saying that. First of all, look up the definition of brothel. It is somewhere that commonly/frequently plays host to prostitution. Escorts ALLEGEDLY using an apartment for sex over the span of tow nights does not a brothel make. Secondly, this is not 'one of life's little chores' because in the course of most people's lives, they do not rent out their apartments sight unseen to strangers over the internet. Yes, AirBnB is cool, and yes, you can use it to make extra money if you wish. But stop pretending like AirBnB hosts don't knowingly take on risk by making their apartment available to literally anyone who signs up on the site. They get paid for it and AirBnB have an insurance policy. What if a single couple had rented the apartment and left it in the same state after having non-stop sex? Could the host complain in the same way?
- AlexAffe 10y ago
  Bin overflowing. A wrapper under the bed. Hey, we're not talking about used needles and shit stains on the wall. This was a civilized night, they used protection, had some good wine and Prosecco... There is really nothing wrong with that, other than it might be a grayzone in airbnbs terms and the criminalization of prostitution...
  - anjc 10y ago
    I wouldn't give two shits whether they used protection or not and couldn't care less if they ruin their life with drugs. They underhandedly used a person's house for illegal activity and left the owner to clean up afterwards. There's really no excusing it by trying to make it seem like a bunch of kids having a cool fun time. And the criminalisation of prostitution isn't a grey area, it's the law in that jurisdiction.
    - foldr 10y ago
      >And the criminalisation of prostitution isn't a grey area, it's the law in that jurisdiction. No. Prostitution per se is not against the law in the UK (except in Northern Ireland).
      - anjc 10y ago
        The prostitute might not be culpable for the sexual act itself but every activity surrounding prostitution is illegal. Soliciting, using a brothel, pimping, paying a prostitute etc. There's no getting around the fact that this guy's place was used for illegal activity.
        foldr 10y ago
        No, paying a prostitute is not illegal in the UK. As for the rest, that's why the OP said "grey area". It's not entirely clear that they were doing any of the other stuff. See e.g. the 'legality' section in the following Wikipedia article. It's not black and white whether or not anything illegal was going on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soho_walk-up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soho_walk-up
- Mandatum 10y ago
  Rent your house like a hotel, expect it to be treated as such. This isn't some family-friendly, socio-do-gooder website - it's AirBnB. They rent, they stay, they leave. Nothing was damaged in the apartment, I don't see the issue. If you don't like the mess, give a bad rating.
DanBC 10y ago
This is England where people having sex for money is not illegal. Running a brothel is illegal, which is what the property owner is worried about.
zeroer 10y ago
I agree that it's not as big a deal as the host is making it out to be. People drink and have sex in hotels and AirBnB listings all the time. But it's worth pointing out that AirBnB requires that you declare the number of people using the apartment (because it affects pricing). The house rules might also state that only registered guests are allowed in, though it's hard to say without seeing the house rules for this specific listing.

tnr23 10y ago

cry me a river. you have to take this into account if you rent out your place.

anjc 10y ago

I love it when people think they have a simple solution to something, but gradually converge onto the complicated solution that they were trying to avoid. Like "why is this C++ sockets implementation 30k LOC....I could write that in 300 lines. Oh wait better add some error checking. Hm I wonder if I should test for endianness" etc etc. They should have security for this Airbnb thing for situations like this.

illuminati1911 10y ago

What's the problem here? Did they leave the apartments uncleaned or...? One of the biggest human rights insults around the world is making prostitution illegal. 1) It's not governments business what people do with their bodies. 2) People are going to do it anyway (even in countries where it is punished with a death penalty) 3) ...and therefore women and men working in this industry won't have access to unions, healthcare, safety etc.

vosper 10y ago
Clearly you didn't read the article at all: they left used condoms, tissues, and empty bottles of wine all over the apartment. The owner had to clean it up, which was probably quite gross for him. That actually seems to be a big part of his complaint - he even says that if they hadn't made a mess he wouldn't have known what had happened, and would have probably accepted a repeat booking. I agree with your points, but consider reading TFA at least.
- petre 10y ago
  It's part of the trade when you run lodging spaces. Hotels also clean up after their customers.
  - csydas 10y ago
    Well, strictly speaking AirBnB is not a hotel. Likewise, you're supposed to abide by house rules. I have no idea what the author had set for their rental, but I have yet to see an AirBnB posting that didn't ask that you please keep the place tidy. Given the enthusiastic response I got from my last host when my partner and I took the time to give the apartment a once-over when we left, I'm guessing that this is a persistent problem where guests just leave a place trashed. Some cleaning is obviously anticipated by the cleaning fees; you wash the linens, still give the place a good scrubbing between guests, etc., but I think it's fair to expect the guests to tidy up a little if you're upfront that this is part of the agreement on the listing. Likewise, even hotels will charge for outrageous damage or messes to their properties. Security deposits in the US for even really cheap hotels are pretty common, usually requiring a credit card with a $100 charge that is cancelled/returned later.

camus2 10y ago

> (...) my next-door neighbour saw it, made a complaint against me and I was evicted from my family home. I would do exactly the same thing as her neighbor. Why? because even if I know that person , I don't know how fucked up the clients are and I wouldn't want to live in a building where people come and go to have sex with hookers, especially if there are kids around.

robryk 10y ago
I'm curious: would you feed the same way about an apartment that is often rented via AirBnb?
watter 10y ago
Would you have the same problem with a single person who is sexually active? I've been single most of my adult life so you'd basically be calling the cops on me for being a regular citizen doing legal things.
- draw_down 10y ago
  No, apparently, when money is exchanged between parties, that's when sex becomes wrong and bad.
- camus2 10y ago
  There is a difference between a couple that is sexually active living in a building and a brothel.

curiousgal 10y ago

>And until we decriminalise sex work, sex workers will never be safe by not being able to work in pairs. This is probably the most ridiculous argument I've heard for the decriminalization of prostitution.

DanBC 10y ago
In England sex workers are not allowed to "run a brothel". A brothel (in English law) is a place where two or more women offer sex. http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/prostitution_and_exploitation_of_prostitution/#a14 http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/prostitution_and_exploita... > the definition of a brothel in English law does not require that the premises are used for the purposes of prostitution since a brothel exists wherever more than one woman offers sexual intercourse, whether for payment or not. This means that sex workers who want to charge people for money (a legal activity in England) can't do it by sharing a property (illegal), but have to do it on the street. Whatever your views on sex work it should be clear that street sex work is more dangerous than that offered in a private residence.
robryk 10y ago
According to the article in UK it's legal to offer sex for money, as long as you're the only person doing it in a particular location (because otherwise the location is a brothel and operating a brothel is a criminal offense). In light of this that statement makes much more sense.
- DanBC 10y ago
  It's even legal to sell sex for money in a brothel, so long as you're not the one operating it. http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/prostitution_and_exploitation_of_prostitution/#a14 http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/prostitution_and_exploita... > It is not illegal to sell sex at a brothel provided the sex worker is not involved in management or control of the brothel. A house occupied by one woman and used by her alone for prostitution, is not a brothel (Gorman v Standen, Palace Clarke v Standen (1964) 48 Cr App R 30).
  - 10y ago

vmateixeira 10y ago

I see no different behaviour from what can happen on an hotel... and I don't see hotels complaining...

DanBC 10y ago
Hotels do complain about sex workers, because they're in some legal risk if they allow it to happen. There's also a slightly increased risk of infected material from sex workers rather than the general population. The core activity (people exchanging sex for money) probably doesn't need to be illegal (and isn't under English law). But the English law is a mess, and criminalises a bunch of stuff around this activity, while still leaving vulnerable people unprotected.

vertex-four 10y ago

Could I point out that this is the dreadful sort of "display two viewpoints, provide almost no commentary, and call it balanced" article the BBC is known for.

devdoomari 10y ago

does airbnb have options like 'no-uh-oh-ing'? Even apartment rents have options like 'no-pets', so it's quite straightforward to have hosts enforce some rules. (and have search option with 'without-uh-oh-forbidden')

iraklism 10y ago
Yes, just after the no-breathing option.
GavinMcG 10y ago
Is "uh-oh" slang for sex? I've never heard it, and while it's a clear guess from context what you mean, I'm having a hard time connecting the typical meaning of "uh-oh" with sex.

AlexAffe 10y ago

Pinot Grigio, Prosecco, bin overflowing with used condoms... Let this guy give me their contact, I could use a night like that.

logicallee 10y ago

Kudos for the BBC for finding this second subject (the bottom half of the article) and presenting both sides, as well as the inset "What is the law in the UK?" which I didn't know. This is a really strong and extremely balanced story where two sides speak for themselves through quotes. (I'd tell the author myself but I can't see a byline.) Does anyone here know, what does Charlotte mean at the end with "I would never go on tour on my own to a new place that I've never been to before. No way. Because there is no safety agency or union out there that I can tell where I am or what I'm doing." What are these unions or safety agencies, formal or informal? (And why can't Charlotte find one in a city she tours in?) If the reason they can't be found is that they're kind of operating outside of the law, like informal "protection" services then this would explain why she can only find it in a city she knows well - but that is not what "safety agency or union" means to me at all. So what are these things?

aphexbr 10y ago
I presume she means there's no such thing for the type of work she does. That is, if she did something else those things would be available to her, but they aren't for her line of work. So, she has to depend on pre-existing relationship with people who can protect her where she is.
- logicallee 10y ago
  Oh, you are right - I think that I misread it. They must have meant that there is no such thing as a safety agency or union - not on tour, not anywhere. It is kind of weird that she has such a specific term in mind ("safety agency or union") for something that doesn't exist -- you would think she would phrase it as, "It's not like there are unions or anything else protecting workers." Perhaps she would like to see such institutions. (The article says she was part of a documentary, which the article links here -- http://www.devonlive.com/love-sale-exeter-escort-appears-channel-4/story-21028598-detail/story.html http://www.devonlive.com/love-sale-exeter-escort-appears-cha... ). Thanks.
DanBC 10y ago
There are initiatives such as "ugly mugs" which share details about dangerous clients: https://uknswp.org/um/ https://uknswp.org/um/

return0 10y ago

All i see is airbnb disrupting the real estate market. No more shady 'red light' districts, brothels can be everywhere.

BlindWanderer 10y ago

Can confirm. No hotel wants this, increased chance of breakages and noise complaints. Parties are worse. Airbnb is pretty ideal.

matzos 10y ago

How good were the girls?

vezycash 10y ago

The flat was used to shoot porn videos - most likely.

sauronlord 10y ago

Hotels have been used like this forever. People run their homes like hotels and are shocked to find that people treat it as such.

al_chemist 10y ago

tl;dr Guy rented his apartment then he was horrified that someone had sex and drunk alcohol there. He called police and since they didn't call him back, now he want to sell whole place, because while he loves it, it's not worth it anymore. What?

M_Grey 10y ago
Danny Dyer built a new home and then promptly sold it because he believed that it was haunted. People are really, really irrational much of the time.

elymar 10y ago

Airtna

elymar 10y ago

Airtna

Mz 10y ago

And basically what I had to do was pick all that up with my hands. Because England has yet to get up to speed with surgical gloves or similar. They just cannot be found. At all. Sure. The way this part is written: Looking at both their ads, some of the rates were about £1,300 a night. So if they were fully booked for the two nights that's £2,600 each - £5,200 in total. The feeling was a bit like when I had to rush home from work a couple of years ago because I thought I'd left a tea towel on the hob. It felt like the place was burning down. This reads to me like he was basically horrified at the idea of two women making excellent money, probably a lot more than he makes. That is how that part reads to me.