16 ms·

How I legally got scammed for $250 by an upscale apartment complex

265 points by wunderg 10y ago

maerF0x0 10y ago
Whenever you have something like this please put it on Yelp! Many of us will check yelp before renting with a company.
kw71 10y ago
I know that 'obtaining money or property under false pretenses' is a felony in at least some states. I wonder why this wouldn't apply?
exabrial 10y ago
Ask them what their minimum credit score is? If they refuse, I'd say you definitely have a legal case to recover your time and lawyer fees
- kbenson 10y ago
  It's a proprietary credit system. Presumably, they have the ability to tweak the system (possibly though a separate agency under similar ownership that is able to report people with post-dated collections). I imagine if someone is familiar enough with the law, they might find that some statutes about credit reporting are broad enough to apply to any credit system, and these people might find themselves under indictment if the right entities are alerted. At a minimum, it's very fishy that a proprietary credit system is being used and people are finding that they just happen to have bogus entries in that system. It would be really interesting to know the total number of companies that use that system and to see the query and reporting history of each...
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    This just seems like a property-rental equivalent of the "yo-yo scam" that car dealers do. The essence of the scam is they carefully let you think you're buying a car when really you're just "applying" for a loan to buy it. They collect a down payment, processing fees, etc., hand you the keys to the car and you drive off... only to get it repossessed a day or two later when "the bank denied your financing". And of course, all the money you gave them is non-refundable, as spelled out in the paperwork you signed. Then they repeat with the next sucker who walks onto the lot.
hprotagonist 10y ago
This is why I vastly prefer to rent on handshake deals and standard lease agreements with homeowners. It's waaaay more human.
- 67726e 10y ago
  I've been burned by a major corporate rental before, and will never do that again. Moving in wasn't a problem, though the "Smart Saver" non-refundable deposit they offered should have been enough of a red flag. Once while on a week long company retreat they upgraded their payment system, which removed my payment information not only causing my rent to be late, but they then filed for eviction after only three days. That cost me easily half a month's rent in fees to clear up because of their own technical fuckup. The only notice for the upgrade, of course, was a flyer left hanging from my door which I found when I got home along with a notice on my door. When I moved out they claimed nearly a thousand dollars in cleaning fees, with line items like "trash bag (5), $75 each," which in itself would be bullshit had I not had the place cleaned. When I tried to dispute the charges, the ever so helpful rental agents told me to pay it in thirty days or it would go to collections. These mega rental corporations just exist to nickel and dime the shit out of everyone and will throw their weight around. You'll just spend more on legal fees, and they bank on that.
  - hprotagonist 10y ago
    From me, pulling that sort of horseshit gets you a certified letter notifying you, the landlord, of your impending small claims court date. Companies that want to play that kind of game don't want to play it with me. Particularly in my state (MA), the law is vastly in my favor, and I am willing and able to spend the time proving that point. I know a lot of people can't, so i'm happy enough to exact some measure of karmic equivalence.
    - owly 9y ago
      Ditto. I'm happy to spend the time to crush people like this.
    - 9y ago
wyldfire 10y ago
If this happens to you, you should consider talking to: 1. Your state's AG [1] 2. The local TV news 3. Local police I don't think I would call it a "legal scam," it sounds remarkably like fraud. Lots of modern fraud takes place over international VoIP calls, so the fact that there's a brick and mortar business with assets that can be seized means you shouldn't give up quickly. > Even disputing a charge on the credit card — they have copies of our ID, smart. Dispute it anyways. Yes, it may flip back on you once they disclose the fact that you were there. But just stipulate it upfront that you made the purchase but the terms were unclear or that the claims that they made regarding your rejection are false. These guys sound like they are clever enough to try and make their scheme as close to legal as possible. They made sure that the amount you're getting scammed isn't worth your time or an attorney's time. But don't let them get away with it. [1] Texas AG consumer complaints: https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/cpd/file-a-consumer-complaint https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/cpd/file-a-consumer-com...
- kbenson 10y ago
  I would love to see the look on their face if one of the people they had on the hook and about to sign somehow worked into the conversation that their uncle was State Attorney General, or a local District Attorney or something like that.
  - wyldfire 10y ago
    Since there really is a property there, they would probably cleverly slip their application into the "approved" pile.
    - kbenson 10y ago
      That's why you mention it before signing. Then they have to make a decision to accept your application and fees and actually rent their cash cow, or to find some other reason to reject you (for something within their discretion) prior to committing to either scam you or rent to you.
      - 9y ago
lawnchair_larry 10y ago
Any company like this is going to scam you at move out time as well. One agent told me that nobody gets their full deposit back, ever. They'll make up a list of things they had to do and give you an inflated bill for it.
- FireBeyond 9y ago
  Yeah, I remember living at a high rise that, while waiting for our move-out inspection, my partner and I happened to sight on the PM's desk our already filled out move out report, complete with cleaning notes and charges. As in before we'd had the inspection... "Oh, I hadn't finished editing from the previous tenant..." "Why would you print it then?" "..."
- rhexs 9y ago
  This is easy to get around. Take pictures of the apartment at move-in. Read the lease to discover standard cleaning fees before signing. Take care of the apartment. Walk through the apartment with the Landlord on move-out. If they fraudulently deduct as part of some sort of profit-center, discover the wonderful world of small claims court. Not going to be fun but you'll win.
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    Haha this seems like maybe you haven't rented many places. My brother used to talk like this, but on his last move-out he got totally shafted. He and his wife had meticulously scrubbed every surface, then they hired a cleaning company, and they still got none of their deposit back. The "easy" solution to this, although it does have some drawbacks, is simply not to pay the last month's rent. The only time I haven't gotten screwed over by a landlord is when we knew each other through our university alumni association.
    - rhexs 9y ago
      Rented plenty of places. Read my comment again. You seem to have ignored critical parts of it. Yes, if your landlord takes your deposit and do nothing except complain on hackernews they obviously aren't going to write you a check out of the goodness of their hearts. Not paying the last months rent seems like an absolutely terrible idea (depends on local state laws I suppose, but please consult with a local renter advocate association or lawyer before trying this) and the exact sort of advice that will lead you into handing over gobs of cash to your landlord for absolutely no good reason then writing anecdotes about it till the end of time.
joshuaheard 10y ago
Landlord here. This tenant made a mistake paying an "administrative fee" of $150, and giving the deposit ($350) without a signed lease. Though, we do charge a $50 application fee to cover the cost of the background check we run. However, if this company is indeed not intending to rent this property and only collecting the application fees, it would be fraud.
- fwefwwfe 9y ago
  > Then they made a photocopy of our ID for a file. Which again raised my suspicion, I’ve rented many apartment before and none of properties ever asked for that before signing the lease That sounds like a red flag with the article/author. What apartment place wouldn't do a background check and want ID to make sure they go the right person?
  - felipemnoa 9y ago
    Anecdote here: Once when I wanted to rent an apartment in a nice apartment complex they wouldn't even show me the apartment without me showing them my ID. I ended up renting the place and never had a problem.
    - win_ini 9y ago
      In California - it's the Law. You need to provide picture ID before the property management company can you show you around the property. At least that's what the little sign in each leasing office I've visited said.... (????)
      - swang 9y ago
        Huh? Is this a viewing or something else? I have rented apartments and looked at housing in several places in CA, not once has anyone asked me for my ID. Only when it got down to the serious brass tacks was that required.
        9y ago
ploxiln 9y ago
Maybe you've never attempted to rent an apartment in NYC. They typically require * scanned ID * recent bank statements * recent pay stubs * recent tax return or W2 * letter of employment on official company letterhead * company office number they can call to confirm employment * last two addresses you lived at * letter from previous landlord * yearly salary at least 40x (sometimes 50x) monthly rent * ~ $100 application fee for background / credit check * first months rent, security deposit, and broker's fee, on three separate certified/cashiers checks The market of renters is very competitive. But also, as a tenant it's possible for you to be a huge problem, and you can be very difficult for them to remove. It's like they assume I might make a huge mess, damage the apartment, never pay rent, and refuse to move out for many months while legal proceedings grind slowly through the courts, and they'll never recover any costs because I'm broke. Even though my bank account statements show I could pay for the whole year up-front. Compare to when Square shuts down or rejects a seller account with no explanation or recourse, or when Google AdWords does the same. It's because they've been burned by scammers in the past, scammers who are better at looking safe and innocent than honest people. It's just more efficient for them to be draconian and unsympathetic. I just accept that's how it is. Maybe you take your business elsewhere. You're only out $250, could be way worse, could be thousands ...
- ams6110 9y ago
  The reason for all these upfront requirements is that many areas have made eviction almost impossible, so landlords have to be very sure up front that they are renting to qualified tennants.
- rbcgerard 9y ago
  It's pretty easy to evict a tenant in Texas, whereas its next to impossible in New York, which seems to have the perverse incentive of making it really hard for people to rent
- aub3bhat 9y ago
  I literally wrote the same comment. Though I must say that the relatively cheaper rent on a year/multi-year lease vs enormously overpriced sublets/AirBnB makes it a worthwhile investment.
clamprecht 9y ago
Post this to the Austin reddit. Others may have been scammed as well. https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/ If you have the time, sue them in small claims court. Document everything. Edit: I see you've already posted it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/63azq8/how_i_legally_got_scammed_for_250_and_2_days_by/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/63azq8/how_i_legall...
yaacovtp 9y ago
I've used Corelogic as a landlord as well. Any applicant with a reported history of non payment is a big red flag and would likely be denied. I'd compare it to very late credit card payments or a charge off. Not a scam. The employee doing the review would get in trouble for approving this application!
- tradersam 9y ago
  > Any applicant with a reported history of non payment is a big red flag and would likely be denied. Directly from the article: > My application was denied due to their system show that some management company filed missing rent in 2011. Which is not true I have zero collections or public records. The point is they were lying.
  - djrogers 9y ago
    Or the data was wrong.
    - dottrap 9y ago
      Most likely the data was wrong. The credit report industry has a 20% error rate. See the old 60 Minutes investigation on this. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/40-million-mistakes-is-your-credit-report-accurate-25-08-2013/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/40-million-mistakes-is-your-cred...
  - empath75 9y ago
    They can request a copy of the report.
pm24601 9y ago
And this is why … I love California and would never move to a “business-friendly” state. http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/landlordbook/looking.shtml http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/landlordbook/looking.shtm... > “The application fee cannot legally be more than the landlord’s actual out-of-pocket costs, and, in 2012, can never be more than $44.51. The landlord must give you a receipt that itemizes his or her out-of-pocket expenses in obtaining and processing the information about you. The landlord must return any unused portion of the fee (for example, if the landlord does not check your references).”
nassir 9y ago
I faced a relatively similar situation when trying to rent in the East Bay. My wife and I both have 720+ credit scores as were looking to rent in the $2500 range. After going through applications at 3 places and getting rejected, I realized something was off. Our credit scores had been run multiple times and we had paid application processing fees at multiple places yet we were getting rejected. Perhaps the applicant pool is so strong that my 7X multiple on rent income and great scores won't cut it - but I find it hard to believe. Perhaps the blessing of a strong tech economy comes with the curse of arrogant and fraudulant potential landlords. Can't wait to get out of this city
- baddox 9y ago
  Which town in the East Bay, if you don't mind me asking?
  - nassir 9y ago
    Fremont
- tedmiston 9y ago
  > After going through applications at 3 places and getting rejected, I realized something was off. So did you investigate what that something is? (Unclear to me)
  - floatrock 9y ago
    he's saying "lots of people are probably running this scam" as an explanation his shitty experience with the shittiness that is the bay area housing market.
    - tedmiston 9y ago
      Ah, okay. After reading the author's Medium post, I wasn't as convinced the rest of HN that he's actually being scammed. Put another way, he has not convinced me that the issue doesn't lie in something unique to his situation or his credit report. Most of the "red flags" mentioned, as others have pointed out here, are not abnormal in (legitimate) apartment rental application processes, my own included.
wapz 9y ago
>The First place we visited Altis Lakeline managed by Altman Companies was amazing, its a brand new apartment complex with cool amenities, priced at $1400 which is much lower, compare to similar places $1600–$1700, that where I missed first red flag. Plus they had amazing special — 2 months free rent — which under normal circumstances will raise suspicion, I thought it’s a brand new property with construction done a few months ago trying to get to full capacity. I really had trouble reading through this. I know medium isn't for writers per se but basic proofreading would have helped tremendously.
- ceedan 9y ago
  You assume the primary language is English. My assumption was that it isn't their first language. I was still able to read it just fine.
- tedmiston 9y ago
  I felt the same way over and over again throughout. Whether or not the author's primary language is English, it feels like it was written without proofreading or editing at all.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    Welcome to the internet?!
  - magic_beans 9y ago
    I got the sense they weren't a native speaker. Otherwise the errors were, frankly, egregious.
Veratyr 9y ago
> Then they made a photocopy of our ID for a file. Which again raised my suspicion, I’ve rented many apartment before and none of properties ever asked for that before signing the lease, in my head it was done deal — so I let it slip. Seems to be normal here in the bay area. They usually do a background check too and I can't imagine that happening without ID.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  I was confused about that being suspicious myself. It seems common, and it doesn't actually prevent him from doing a credit card chargeback - he's not disputing on "I never paid that", he's disputing on "they didn't give what they promised".
hartator 9y ago
I don't get why the property got so much flak. Okay, management seems bad and communication seems to suck. However, background checks cost $50 each. So, it's already $100, putting their profit to $150 for locking one appartement for you for a few days. If you fail the background checks, it's your issue not there. And maybe we just need a better system for background checks. Surely.
erik998 9y ago
I think the building might not be ready for occupancy. Maybe there is some holdup from a municipality, investor, contractor, fire inspection that is the cause of the real holdup. They really should just return your money but please remember, the person you dealt with also must deal with a large bureaucracy. Maybe the company she works for thinks everything is OK and they just had a series of bad tenants. When dealing with the company you need to remember that person has no incentive in telling you no. At the end of the day they just want a paycheck and will do whatever their bosses tell them to do, right or wrong. I believe CoreLogic was spun off from First American. https://www.corelogic.com/about-us/news/asset_upload_file346_4004.pdf https://www.corelogic.com/about-us/news/asset_upload_file346... You may want to see if you are eligible to file a claim with your renter's insurance policy. As for CoreLogic, you will want to use all the debtor's rights laws at your disposal. All those credit reporting laws apply to them, maybe small claims court would be a good avenue. Small claims courts will usually squash any unruly practices of a landlord. The large rental management companies can be difficult to worth with as a tenant. At the same time its easier for tenants because they have more tools at their disposal especially in collecting minimal amounts of security deposits and timely repairs. They can be difficult when trying to break a lease, return deposits, or charging misc/extra fees. Sometimes there is no way around it. You need to go into the situation understanding you will lose money. A good rule of thumb is more amenities => more fees => more problems!
phonon 9y ago
Why don't they get a copy of the Corelogic report? http://www.corelogic.com/solutions/rental-property-solutions-consumer-assistance.aspx http://www.corelogic.com/solutions/rental-property-solutions... How do I obtain a copy of my CoreLogic Rental Property Solutions Consumer File? Under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, you are entitled to receive one free copy of your consumer file in any twelve month period from a credit reporting agency (CRA). You are also entitled to a free copy of your consumer file if you meet the following criteria: You have been notified of an adverse action or been denied housing or employment based on information in your consumer file within the past 60 days You reside in a state where you are entitled to more than one free copy in any twelve month period You suspect that your file may contain fraudulent information, or you are a victim of identity theft You are unemployed or you currently receive public assistance You may obtain a copy of your CoreLogic® Rental Property Solutions consumer file in one of two ways: 1) Call our toll-free number 1-888-333-2413 OR 2) Complete this form. http://www.corelogic.com/downloadable-docs/saferent-consumer-disclosure.pdf http://www.corelogic.com/downloadable-docs/saferent-consumer...
erik998 9y ago
The whole situation sucks. The last thing anyone wants to do is consistently use an attorney to handle matters like these. Each and every day it seems like a necessity. I guess when leasing a place, add up all the months. It might be a good rule of thumb to always consult an attorney for any contracts with goods or services worth more $2000.00. What sucks is finding an attorney that can advise you on such matters, deal with them, and litigate them for your refund + attorney costs.
yohoho22 9y ago
For what it's worth, landlords in Texas have to "maintain written [tenant] selection criteria"[1] and inform you of them when asked. This is supposed to be noted and underlined on rental applications. 1 (PDF): https://www.tdhca.state.tx.us/pmcdocs/TenantSelectionCriteria.pdf https://www.tdhca.state.tx.us/pmcdocs/TenantSelectionCriteri...
arrty88 9y ago
Send this to John Oliver on last week tonight
aub3bhat 9y ago
Honestly the author should try applying for renting an apartment/room in NYC. I had to give, ID, Letter from employer/university, payslips, SSN etc. Weeks before signing the lease, which actually ended up happening literally the day of move-in. The 250$ charge seems exorbitant, but ~50 to 100$ credit check fee is common, most agents will provide a realistic assessment of your chances.
debacle 9y ago
CoreLogic is not to blame here. They are a massive company. They would not be scamming renters out of such small amounts.
- floatrock 9y ago
  I heard or listened to an anecdote about how credit reporting would actually be a perfect application for ML, but ML companies are fearful of stepping into a minefield of "you can't do this" regulations. If an algorithm found some correlation between your "credit worthiness" (however their proprietary IP chooses to define it) and race or color of skin (or some proxy of), then using that information would be (legally) discrimination, say most legal experts speculating on a hypothetical (but bound to happen eventually) case. The fact is, yes, ML could probably discover a bunch of novel correlations that increase effectiveness by 7.8%, but since we can't really describe what "model" or way of thinking about our world the deep neural net is using, it's too easy to build a racist and discriminatory credit report. Kinda like that microsoft twitter chatbot that had to be taken down because it was learning from (and repeating) the racist garbage that a bunch of trolls were feeding it. Point is, it's a minefield. But it's going to happen. Someone's going to try it. And that's what the dark side of these companies like CoreLogic is: when real people's life events are influenced by the outcome of these databases, what's a societally-acceptable error rate? And what mechanisms are in place to check it? Not saying CoreLogic is using racist ML credit bots. Not even saying the problem here is racism. I'm saying we've decided to put rules in front of credit reporting companies because, even if it's unintentional, it can lead to outcomes we all decided "you know, we have these ideals we're trying to strive towards and this isn't it." You also don't need a conscious conspiracy to output a racistbot -- microsoft didn't set out to make one, they just didn't think to build in a troll filter. So yeah, CoreLogic isn't scamming renters out of such small amounts, but they are benefitting from an environment that allows such scams to exist. Put another way, if there was some pending legislation that would make it harder for these scams to work (eg CoreLogic being legally obligated to also publicly report how many inquiries an inquirer has made with CoreLogic for the purpose of this specific property), do you think CoreLogic would spend lobbying money protecting their interests and preventing this at the expense of the consumer? Of course they would, reporting regulations are a huge operating expense! (wait... aren't you a company specializing in reporting...?) That's why the author made a few swipes at the less-regulated corner of the credit report industry.
cperciva 9y ago
Stories like this are why it's illegal in BC to charge application fees (http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/02078_01#section15 http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/0207...). Our tenancy law isn't perfect, but I think this is one of the things we got right.
- dghf 9y ago
  Also in Scotland. Soon to be the case in England & Wales, if the government doesn't blink in the face of outraged letting agents.
  - mijoharas 9y ago
    Thanks, I had thought that it was already illegal in England, just learned that it hasn't come into effect yet[0]. For information, the linked to article states that it will probably come into effect in September, provided the government doesn't blink as mentioned above. [0] http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/When-does-tenant-fees-ban-begin.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/...
bubblethink 9y ago
I was looking for rentals last weekend in ATL , and i noticed the administrative fee too. I don't remember seeing it last time around (couple of years ago), which makes me wonder if it's a recent phenomenon. The adminstrative fee, usually $250 or so, was in addition to the application fee. This makes no sense. What are they charging this for ? I didn't ask if it's after the application is approved or before. I'm guessing that it's after, but it's still a straight up cash grab. Another shitty thing that stood out was some sort of mandatory comcast fees. That is $85 for Comcast's most basic package, which is much higher than the price on Comcast's website.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  In keeping with this (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11986307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11986307), cable companies frequently pay for lock-in deals with apartment complexes. Spectacularly shitty, but I suspect related to you getting worse-than-listed rates.
gambiting 9y ago
This is standard state of affairs in the UK, I see some agencies in US started to take notice. Basically if you want to rent a property here, an agency will demand that you pay their fee first(last time I paid over 500 pounds just in agency fees), so they can run a full background check on you - so you have to submit proof of your employment, proof of income, history of addresses for past 3 years, bank account details, copy of my passport to prove the right to rent in the UK, and then it's sent off to some agency somewhere which does the check. And basically it comes back as yes/no, depending on your credit score, income, blah blah blah. If it comes back as no, you lose all the money you paid in those "fees". It's a scam of gigantic proportions, but UK plays along because people here love "order" and being invigilated by some random rental agency seems to scratch that itch.
- mijoharas 9y ago
  True, but we are trying to make it illegal [0] for precisely the reasons you stated, and it's already illegal in Scotland. [0] http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/When-does-tenant-fees-ban-begin.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/...
shiven 9y ago
This has "class-action lawsuit" written all over it. Some smart lawyer just needs to double down and get it together.
reddytowns 9y ago
This isn't a scam. The author admits they had an actual reason for denying him. It was a mistake in his record and they charged an exorbitant processing fee, but there is nothing that shows they acted in bad faith.
achandlerwhite 9y ago
This is exactly what the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is designed to fight against. www.consumerfinance.gov
squozzer 9y ago
It's possible the author is on to something -- but proving it is something else. Maybe 5 people in Austin area with perfect-ish credit scores / hidden cameras could mount a sting op. Similar to how government agencies build cases of racial discrimination in housing.
djyaz1200 9y ago
Related but not precisely on topic... When will a group of talented people with access to capital end the gross imbalance of power between landlords and tenants with technology? In just about every other area of the economy the customer has the power. To give the customer aka renter more power they need more information. Step 1 is having ratings for all landlords/properties. The landlords get your rating (your credit) but you don't get theirs. That asymmetry puts the renter at a disadvantage. There is also no price discovery mechanism. You only know the rate they quote you, no way to find out the actual price they are charging existing tenants. Payments in this industry are often still by check which is absurd in 2017. This is one of the last giant markets left for technology to disrupt but it's going to be a war. The landlord/tenant relationship is "where the rubber meets the road" in the struggle between the rich and the rest of us... so this isn't going to be easy. If someone took this on I'd be honored to be a part of it! https://vimeo.com/user12087540/checkmeonce https://vimeo.com/user12087540/checkmeonce
jumpkickhit 9y ago
Does Medium.com not have editors or something? Some things sounded off, some didn't make any sense at all. "She just hang up on me" "Plus they had amazing special" "They provide iPad on the spot" "my wife credit score" "At this point I hate it them."
- metaphorm 9y ago
  there are no editors. it's user generated content, it's not a magazine.
metaphorm 9y ago
are people really so naive? maybe living in NYC has made me hard and bitter, but shit, it's just a ground truth here that the landlords and the real estate agents are not your friends and you should treat EVERY transaction done with them with extreme scrutiny.
solomon95 9y ago
Thanks for consistently presenting facts and ideas that are useful in the real world. Certainly, attitude and fortitude account for something. https://rentberry.com/tenant-screening https://rentberry.com/tenant-screening
solomon95 9y ago
Thanks for consistently presenting facts and ideas that are useful in the real world. Certainly attitude and fortitude account for something; however, I'd rather spend my time developing tangible assets. Thanks again! <a href="https://rentberry.com/tenant-screening">tenant https://rentberry.com/tenant-screening">tenant screening</a>

265 points by wunderg 10y ago

Whenever you have something like this please put it on Yelp! Many of us will check yelp before renting with a company.

kw71 10y ago

I know that 'obtaining money or property under false pretenses' is a felony in at least some states. I wonder why this wouldn't apply?

exabrial 10y ago

Ask them what their minimum credit score is? If they refuse, I'd say you definitely have a legal case to recover your time and lawyer fees

kbenson 10y ago
It's a proprietary credit system. Presumably, they have the ability to tweak the system (possibly though a separate agency under similar ownership that is able to report people with post-dated collections). I imagine if someone is familiar enough with the law, they might find that some statutes about credit reporting are broad enough to apply to any credit system, and these people might find themselves under indictment if the right entities are alerted. At a minimum, it's very fishy that a proprietary credit system is being used and people are finding that they just happen to have bogus entries in that system. It would be really interesting to know the total number of companies that use that system and to see the query and reporting history of each...
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  This just seems like a property-rental equivalent of the "yo-yo scam" that car dealers do. The essence of the scam is they carefully let you think you're buying a car when really you're just "applying" for a loan to buy it. They collect a down payment, processing fees, etc., hand you the keys to the car and you drive off... only to get it repossessed a day or two later when "the bank denied your financing". And of course, all the money you gave them is non-refundable, as spelled out in the paperwork you signed. Then they repeat with the next sucker who walks onto the lot.

hprotagonist 10y ago

This is why I vastly prefer to rent on handshake deals and standard lease agreements with homeowners. It's waaaay more human.

67726e 10y ago
I've been burned by a major corporate rental before, and will never do that again. Moving in wasn't a problem, though the "Smart Saver" non-refundable deposit they offered should have been enough of a red flag. Once while on a week long company retreat they upgraded their payment system, which removed my payment information not only causing my rent to be late, but they then filed for eviction after only three days. That cost me easily half a month's rent in fees to clear up because of their own technical fuckup. The only notice for the upgrade, of course, was a flyer left hanging from my door which I found when I got home along with a notice on my door. When I moved out they claimed nearly a thousand dollars in cleaning fees, with line items like "trash bag (5), $75 each," which in itself would be bullshit had I not had the place cleaned. When I tried to dispute the charges, the ever so helpful rental agents told me to pay it in thirty days or it would go to collections. These mega rental corporations just exist to nickel and dime the shit out of everyone and will throw their weight around. You'll just spend more on legal fees, and they bank on that.
- hprotagonist 10y ago
  From me, pulling that sort of horseshit gets you a certified letter notifying you, the landlord, of your impending small claims court date. Companies that want to play that kind of game don't want to play it with me. Particularly in my state (MA), the law is vastly in my favor, and I am willing and able to spend the time proving that point. I know a lot of people can't, so i'm happy enough to exact some measure of karmic equivalence.
  - owly 9y ago
    Ditto. I'm happy to spend the time to crush people like this.
  - 9y ago

wyldfire 10y ago

If this happens to you, you should consider talking to: 1. Your state's AG [1] 2. The local TV news 3. Local police I don't think I would call it a "legal scam," it sounds remarkably like fraud. Lots of modern fraud takes place over international VoIP calls, so the fact that there's a brick and mortar business with assets that can be seized means you shouldn't give up quickly. > Even disputing a charge on the credit card — they have copies of our ID, smart. Dispute it anyways. Yes, it may flip back on you once they disclose the fact that you were there. But just stipulate it upfront that you made the purchase but the terms were unclear or that the claims that they made regarding your rejection are false. These guys sound like they are clever enough to try and make their scheme as close to legal as possible. They made sure that the amount you're getting scammed isn't worth your time or an attorney's time. But don't let them get away with it. [1] Texas AG consumer complaints: https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/cpd/file-a-consumer-complaint https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/cpd/file-a-consumer-com...

kbenson 10y ago
I would love to see the look on their face if one of the people they had on the hook and about to sign somehow worked into the conversation that their uncle was State Attorney General, or a local District Attorney or something like that.
- wyldfire 10y ago
  Since there really is a property there, they would probably cleverly slip their application into the "approved" pile.
  - kbenson 10y ago
    That's why you mention it before signing. Then they have to make a decision to accept your application and fees and actually rent their cash cow, or to find some other reason to reject you (for something within their discretion) prior to committing to either scam you or rent to you.
    - 9y ago

lawnchair_larry 10y ago

Any company like this is going to scam you at move out time as well. One agent told me that nobody gets their full deposit back, ever. They'll make up a list of things they had to do and give you an inflated bill for it.

FireBeyond 9y ago
Yeah, I remember living at a high rise that, while waiting for our move-out inspection, my partner and I happened to sight on the PM's desk our already filled out move out report, complete with cleaning notes and charges. As in before we'd had the inspection... "Oh, I hadn't finished editing from the previous tenant..." "Why would you print it then?" "..."
rhexs 9y ago
This is easy to get around. Take pictures of the apartment at move-in. Read the lease to discover standard cleaning fees before signing. Take care of the apartment. Walk through the apartment with the Landlord on move-out. If they fraudulently deduct as part of some sort of profit-center, discover the wonderful world of small claims court. Not going to be fun but you'll win.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  Haha this seems like maybe you haven't rented many places. My brother used to talk like this, but on his last move-out he got totally shafted. He and his wife had meticulously scrubbed every surface, then they hired a cleaning company, and they still got none of their deposit back. The "easy" solution to this, although it does have some drawbacks, is simply not to pay the last month's rent. The only time I haven't gotten screwed over by a landlord is when we knew each other through our university alumni association.
  - rhexs 9y ago
    Rented plenty of places. Read my comment again. You seem to have ignored critical parts of it. Yes, if your landlord takes your deposit and do nothing except complain on hackernews they obviously aren't going to write you a check out of the goodness of their hearts. Not paying the last months rent seems like an absolutely terrible idea (depends on local state laws I suppose, but please consult with a local renter advocate association or lawyer before trying this) and the exact sort of advice that will lead you into handing over gobs of cash to your landlord for absolutely no good reason then writing anecdotes about it till the end of time.

joshuaheard 10y ago

Landlord here. This tenant made a mistake paying an "administrative fee" of $150, and giving the deposit ($350) without a signed lease. Though, we do charge a $50 application fee to cover the cost of the background check we run. However, if this company is indeed not intending to rent this property and only collecting the application fees, it would be fraud.

fwefwwfe 9y ago
> Then they made a photocopy of our ID for a file. Which again raised my suspicion, I’ve rented many apartment before and none of properties ever asked for that before signing the lease That sounds like a red flag with the article/author. What apartment place wouldn't do a background check and want ID to make sure they go the right person?
- felipemnoa 9y ago
  Anecdote here: Once when I wanted to rent an apartment in a nice apartment complex they wouldn't even show me the apartment without me showing them my ID. I ended up renting the place and never had a problem.
  - win_ini 9y ago
    In California - it's the Law. You need to provide picture ID before the property management company can you show you around the property. At least that's what the little sign in each leasing office I've visited said.... (????)
    - swang 9y ago
      Huh? Is this a viewing or something else? I have rented apartments and looked at housing in several places in CA, not once has anyone asked me for my ID. Only when it got down to the serious brass tacks was that required.
      - 9y ago

ploxiln 9y ago

Maybe you've never attempted to rent an apartment in NYC. They typically require * scanned ID * recent bank statements * recent pay stubs * recent tax return or W2 * letter of employment on official company letterhead * company office number they can call to confirm employment * last two addresses you lived at * letter from previous landlord * yearly salary at least 40x (sometimes 50x) monthly rent * ~ $100 application fee for background / credit check * first months rent, security deposit, and broker's fee, on three separate certified/cashiers checks The market of renters is very competitive. But also, as a tenant it's possible for you to be a huge problem, and you can be very difficult for them to remove. It's like they assume I might make a huge mess, damage the apartment, never pay rent, and refuse to move out for many months while legal proceedings grind slowly through the courts, and they'll never recover any costs because I'm broke. Even though my bank account statements show I could pay for the whole year up-front. Compare to when Square shuts down or rejects a seller account with no explanation or recourse, or when Google AdWords does the same. It's because they've been burned by scammers in the past, scammers who are better at looking safe and innocent than honest people. It's just more efficient for them to be draconian and unsympathetic. I just accept that's how it is. Maybe you take your business elsewhere. You're only out $250, could be way worse, could be thousands ...

ams6110 9y ago
The reason for all these upfront requirements is that many areas have made eviction almost impossible, so landlords have to be very sure up front that they are renting to qualified tennants.
rbcgerard 9y ago
It's pretty easy to evict a tenant in Texas, whereas its next to impossible in New York, which seems to have the perverse incentive of making it really hard for people to rent
aub3bhat 9y ago
I literally wrote the same comment. Though I must say that the relatively cheaper rent on a year/multi-year lease vs enormously overpriced sublets/AirBnB makes it a worthwhile investment.

clamprecht 9y ago

Post this to the Austin reddit. Others may have been scammed as well. https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/ If you have the time, sue them in small claims court. Document everything. Edit: I see you've already posted it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/63azq8/how_i_legally_got_scammed_for_250_and_2_days_by/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/63azq8/how_i_legall...

yaacovtp 9y ago

I've used Corelogic as a landlord as well. Any applicant with a reported history of non payment is a big red flag and would likely be denied. I'd compare it to very late credit card payments or a charge off. Not a scam. The employee doing the review would get in trouble for approving this application!

tradersam 9y ago
> Any applicant with a reported history of non payment is a big red flag and would likely be denied. Directly from the article: > My application was denied due to their system show that some management company filed missing rent in 2011. Which is not true I have zero collections or public records. The point is they were lying.
- djrogers 9y ago
  Or the data was wrong.
  - dottrap 9y ago
    Most likely the data was wrong. The credit report industry has a 20% error rate. See the old 60 Minutes investigation on this. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/40-million-mistakes-is-your-credit-report-accurate-25-08-2013/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/40-million-mistakes-is-your-cred...
- empath75 9y ago
  They can request a copy of the report.

pm24601 9y ago

And this is why … I love California and would never move to a “business-friendly” state. http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/landlordbook/looking.shtml http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/landlordbook/looking.shtm... > “The application fee cannot legally be more than the landlord’s actual out-of-pocket costs, and, in 2012, can never be more than $44.51. The landlord must give you a receipt that itemizes his or her out-of-pocket expenses in obtaining and processing the information about you. The landlord must return any unused portion of the fee (for example, if the landlord does not check your references).”

nassir 9y ago

I faced a relatively similar situation when trying to rent in the East Bay. My wife and I both have 720+ credit scores as were looking to rent in the $2500 range. After going through applications at 3 places and getting rejected, I realized something was off. Our credit scores had been run multiple times and we had paid application processing fees at multiple places yet we were getting rejected. Perhaps the applicant pool is so strong that my 7X multiple on rent income and great scores won't cut it - but I find it hard to believe. Perhaps the blessing of a strong tech economy comes with the curse of arrogant and fraudulant potential landlords. Can't wait to get out of this city

baddox 9y ago
Which town in the East Bay, if you don't mind me asking?
- nassir 9y ago
  Fremont
tedmiston 9y ago
> After going through applications at 3 places and getting rejected, I realized something was off. So did you investigate what that something is? (Unclear to me)
- floatrock 9y ago
  he's saying "lots of people are probably running this scam" as an explanation his shitty experience with the shittiness that is the bay area housing market.
  - tedmiston 9y ago
    Ah, okay. After reading the author's Medium post, I wasn't as convinced the rest of HN that he's actually being scammed. Put another way, he has not convinced me that the issue doesn't lie in something unique to his situation or his credit report. Most of the "red flags" mentioned, as others have pointed out here, are not abnormal in (legitimate) apartment rental application processes, my own included.

wapz 9y ago

>The First place we visited Altis Lakeline managed by Altman Companies was amazing, its a brand new apartment complex with cool amenities, priced at $1400 which is much lower, compare to similar places $1600–$1700, that where I missed first red flag. Plus they had amazing special — 2 months free rent — which under normal circumstances will raise suspicion, I thought it’s a brand new property with construction done a few months ago trying to get to full capacity. I really had trouble reading through this. I know medium isn't for writers per se but basic proofreading would have helped tremendously.

ceedan 9y ago
You assume the primary language is English. My assumption was that it isn't their first language. I was still able to read it just fine.
tedmiston 9y ago
I felt the same way over and over again throughout. Whether or not the author's primary language is English, it feels like it was written without proofreading or editing at all.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  Welcome to the internet?!
- magic_beans 9y ago
  I got the sense they weren't a native speaker. Otherwise the errors were, frankly, egregious.

Veratyr 9y ago

> Then they made a photocopy of our ID for a file. Which again raised my suspicion, I’ve rented many apartment before and none of properties ever asked for that before signing the lease, in my head it was done deal — so I let it slip. Seems to be normal here in the bay area. They usually do a background check too and I can't imagine that happening without ID.

Bartweiss 9y ago
I was confused about that being suspicious myself. It seems common, and it doesn't actually prevent him from doing a credit card chargeback - he's not disputing on "I never paid that", he's disputing on "they didn't give what they promised".

hartator 9y ago

I don't get why the property got so much flak. Okay, management seems bad and communication seems to suck. However, background checks cost $50 each. So, it's already $100, putting their profit to $150 for locking one appartement for you for a few days. If you fail the background checks, it's your issue not there. And maybe we just need a better system for background checks. Surely.

erik998 9y ago

I think the building might not be ready for occupancy. Maybe there is some holdup from a municipality, investor, contractor, fire inspection that is the cause of the real holdup. They really should just return your money but please remember, the person you dealt with also must deal with a large bureaucracy. Maybe the company she works for thinks everything is OK and they just had a series of bad tenants. When dealing with the company you need to remember that person has no incentive in telling you no. At the end of the day they just want a paycheck and will do whatever their bosses tell them to do, right or wrong. I believe CoreLogic was spun off from First American. https://www.corelogic.com/about-us/news/asset_upload_file346_4004.pdf https://www.corelogic.com/about-us/news/asset_upload_file346... You may want to see if you are eligible to file a claim with your renter's insurance policy. As for CoreLogic, you will want to use all the debtor's rights laws at your disposal. All those credit reporting laws apply to them, maybe small claims court would be a good avenue. Small claims courts will usually squash any unruly practices of a landlord. The large rental management companies can be difficult to worth with as a tenant. At the same time its easier for tenants because they have more tools at their disposal especially in collecting minimal amounts of security deposits and timely repairs. They can be difficult when trying to break a lease, return deposits, or charging misc/extra fees. Sometimes there is no way around it. You need to go into the situation understanding you will lose money. A good rule of thumb is more amenities => more fees => more problems!

phonon 9y ago

Why don't they get a copy of the Corelogic report? http://www.corelogic.com/solutions/rental-property-solutions-consumer-assistance.aspx http://www.corelogic.com/solutions/rental-property-solutions... How do I obtain a copy of my CoreLogic Rental Property Solutions Consumer File? Under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, you are entitled to receive one free copy of your consumer file in any twelve month period from a credit reporting agency (CRA). You are also entitled to a free copy of your consumer file if you meet the following criteria: You have been notified of an adverse action or been denied housing or employment based on information in your consumer file within the past 60 days You reside in a state where you are entitled to more than one free copy in any twelve month period You suspect that your file may contain fraudulent information, or you are a victim of identity theft You are unemployed or you currently receive public assistance You may obtain a copy of your CoreLogic® Rental Property Solutions consumer file in one of two ways: 1) Call our toll-free number 1-888-333-2413 OR 2) Complete this form. http://www.corelogic.com/downloadable-docs/saferent-consumer-disclosure.pdf http://www.corelogic.com/downloadable-docs/saferent-consumer...

erik998 9y ago

The whole situation sucks. The last thing anyone wants to do is consistently use an attorney to handle matters like these. Each and every day it seems like a necessity. I guess when leasing a place, add up all the months. It might be a good rule of thumb to always consult an attorney for any contracts with goods or services worth more $2000.00. What sucks is finding an attorney that can advise you on such matters, deal with them, and litigate them for your refund + attorney costs.

yohoho22 9y ago

For what it's worth, landlords in Texas have to "maintain written [tenant] selection criteria"[1] and inform you of them when asked. This is supposed to be noted and underlined on rental applications. 1 (PDF): https://www.tdhca.state.tx.us/pmcdocs/TenantSelectionCriteria.pdf https://www.tdhca.state.tx.us/pmcdocs/TenantSelectionCriteri...

arrty88 9y ago

Send this to John Oliver on last week tonight

aub3bhat 9y ago

Honestly the author should try applying for renting an apartment/room in NYC. I had to give, ID, Letter from employer/university, payslips, SSN etc. Weeks before signing the lease, which actually ended up happening literally the day of move-in. The 250$ charge seems exorbitant, but ~50 to 100$ credit check fee is common, most agents will provide a realistic assessment of your chances.

debacle 9y ago

CoreLogic is not to blame here. They are a massive company. They would not be scamming renters out of such small amounts.

floatrock 9y ago
I heard or listened to an anecdote about how credit reporting would actually be a perfect application for ML, but ML companies are fearful of stepping into a minefield of "you can't do this" regulations. If an algorithm found some correlation between your "credit worthiness" (however their proprietary IP chooses to define it) and race or color of skin (or some proxy of), then using that information would be (legally) discrimination, say most legal experts speculating on a hypothetical (but bound to happen eventually) case. The fact is, yes, ML could probably discover a bunch of novel correlations that increase effectiveness by 7.8%, but since we can't really describe what "model" or way of thinking about our world the deep neural net is using, it's too easy to build a racist and discriminatory credit report. Kinda like that microsoft twitter chatbot that had to be taken down because it was learning from (and repeating) the racist garbage that a bunch of trolls were feeding it. Point is, it's a minefield. But it's going to happen. Someone's going to try it. And that's what the dark side of these companies like CoreLogic is: when real people's life events are influenced by the outcome of these databases, what's a societally-acceptable error rate? And what mechanisms are in place to check it? Not saying CoreLogic is using racist ML credit bots. Not even saying the problem here is racism. I'm saying we've decided to put rules in front of credit reporting companies because, even if it's unintentional, it can lead to outcomes we all decided "you know, we have these ideals we're trying to strive towards and this isn't it." You also don't need a conscious conspiracy to output a racistbot -- microsoft didn't set out to make one, they just didn't think to build in a troll filter. So yeah, CoreLogic isn't scamming renters out of such small amounts, but they are benefitting from an environment that allows such scams to exist. Put another way, if there was some pending legislation that would make it harder for these scams to work (eg CoreLogic being legally obligated to also publicly report how many inquiries an inquirer has made with CoreLogic for the purpose of this specific property), do you think CoreLogic would spend lobbying money protecting their interests and preventing this at the expense of the consumer? Of course they would, reporting regulations are a huge operating expense! (wait... aren't you a company specializing in reporting...?) That's why the author made a few swipes at the less-regulated corner of the credit report industry.

cperciva 9y ago

Stories like this are why it's illegal in BC to charge application fees (http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/02078_01#section15 http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/0207...). Our tenancy law isn't perfect, but I think this is one of the things we got right.

dghf 9y ago
Also in Scotland. Soon to be the case in England & Wales, if the government doesn't blink in the face of outraged letting agents.
- mijoharas 9y ago
  Thanks, I had thought that it was already illegal in England, just learned that it hasn't come into effect yet[0]. For information, the linked to article states that it will probably come into effect in September, provided the government doesn't blink as mentioned above. [0] http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/When-does-tenant-fees-ban-begin.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/...

bubblethink 9y ago

I was looking for rentals last weekend in ATL , and i noticed the administrative fee too. I don't remember seeing it last time around (couple of years ago), which makes me wonder if it's a recent phenomenon. The adminstrative fee, usually $250 or so, was in addition to the application fee. This makes no sense. What are they charging this for ? I didn't ask if it's after the application is approved or before. I'm guessing that it's after, but it's still a straight up cash grab. Another shitty thing that stood out was some sort of mandatory comcast fees. That is $85 for Comcast's most basic package, which is much higher than the price on Comcast's website.

Bartweiss 9y ago
In keeping with this (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11986307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11986307), cable companies frequently pay for lock-in deals with apartment complexes. Spectacularly shitty, but I suspect related to you getting worse-than-listed rates.

gambiting 9y ago

This is standard state of affairs in the UK, I see some agencies in US started to take notice. Basically if you want to rent a property here, an agency will demand that you pay their fee first(last time I paid over 500 pounds just in agency fees), so they can run a full background check on you - so you have to submit proof of your employment, proof of income, history of addresses for past 3 years, bank account details, copy of my passport to prove the right to rent in the UK, and then it's sent off to some agency somewhere which does the check. And basically it comes back as yes/no, depending on your credit score, income, blah blah blah. If it comes back as no, you lose all the money you paid in those "fees". It's a scam of gigantic proportions, but UK plays along because people here love "order" and being invigilated by some random rental agency seems to scratch that itch.

mijoharas 9y ago
True, but we are trying to make it illegal [0] for precisely the reasons you stated, and it's already illegal in Scotland. [0] http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/When-does-tenant-fees-ban-begin.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/...

shiven 9y ago

This has "class-action lawsuit" written all over it. Some smart lawyer just needs to double down and get it together.

reddytowns 9y ago

This isn't a scam. The author admits they had an actual reason for denying him. It was a mistake in his record and they charged an exorbitant processing fee, but there is nothing that shows they acted in bad faith.

achandlerwhite 9y ago

This is exactly what the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is designed to fight against. www.consumerfinance.gov

squozzer 9y ago

It's possible the author is on to something -- but proving it is something else. Maybe 5 people in Austin area with perfect-ish credit scores / hidden cameras could mount a sting op. Similar to how government agencies build cases of racial discrimination in housing.

djyaz1200 9y ago

Related but not precisely on topic... When will a group of talented people with access to capital end the gross imbalance of power between landlords and tenants with technology? In just about every other area of the economy the customer has the power. To give the customer aka renter more power they need more information. Step 1 is having ratings for all landlords/properties. The landlords get your rating (your credit) but you don't get theirs. That asymmetry puts the renter at a disadvantage. There is also no price discovery mechanism. You only know the rate they quote you, no way to find out the actual price they are charging existing tenants. Payments in this industry are often still by check which is absurd in 2017. This is one of the last giant markets left for technology to disrupt but it's going to be a war. The landlord/tenant relationship is "where the rubber meets the road" in the struggle between the rich and the rest of us... so this isn't going to be easy. If someone took this on I'd be honored to be a part of it! https://vimeo.com/user12087540/checkmeonce https://vimeo.com/user12087540/checkmeonce

jumpkickhit 9y ago

Does Medium.com not have editors or something? Some things sounded off, some didn't make any sense at all. "She just hang up on me" "Plus they had amazing special" "They provide iPad on the spot" "my wife credit score" "At this point I hate it them."

metaphorm 9y ago
there are no editors. it's user generated content, it's not a magazine.

metaphorm 9y ago

are people really so naive? maybe living in NYC has made me hard and bitter, but shit, it's just a ground truth here that the landlords and the real estate agents are not your friends and you should treat EVERY transaction done with them with extreme scrutiny.

solomon95 9y ago

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solomon95 9y ago

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