13 ms·

Samsung’s biggest challenge now is Google software, not Apple hardware

149 points by ptrptr 10y ago

MattRogish 10y ago
Well, yeah. That's why they bought Joyent.
- macspoofing 10y ago
  Pretty UI is not Samsung's problem.
  - bitmapbrother 10y ago
    On the contrary. TouchWiz is the antithesis of "pretty UI".
    - Godel_unicode 10y ago
      Samsung can be bad at pretty UI (no judgement here on whether or not they are) without that being their problem.
Hydraulix989 10y ago
My biggest challenge with Samsung was the software customizations they put on their phones. A lot of it is just bonafide bloat -- there's even a Samsung Printing Service on my phone, and some of it is just completely unwanted UI modifications like "TouchWiz". Samsung even acts as an intermediate layer of bureaucracy that further delays receiving OS updates (i.e. first the update has to come from Google, then Samsung takes Google's update and has to take time to make their customizations to it adding in their Printing Service and their completely redundant Samsung Messages app, then the carriers take Samsung's update and apply their own modifications like restricting tethering and adding Verizon Messages, NFL, and VZ Maps Navigation, all with restricted uninstallations). My perfectly-capable Galaxy S6 will likely never see the day when it can run Android N. I have since switched to the Google Nexus 6P, which has a vanilla Google version of Android, and I am much happier with a cleaner, much more streamlined personal device. On the other hand, given that Android is open source, I'm curious why Samsung can't just put something like Cyanogenmod on the S8 (or their own forked "custom ROM") and call it a day?
- massysett 10y ago
  They could, but you would then have something like a Kindle Fire, or the touchscreen thingy in a new car: something that runs the same code as Android, but doesn't run Google apps. As far as a consumer is concerned, this isn't Android at all.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    I'm confused, you can download and install Google Apps for Cyanogenmod. Is it a licensing issue?
    - bitmapbrother 10y ago
      I think you mean Lineage OS as CyanogenMod is no longer. Google doesn't really care about Lineage OS because their install base is insignificant. There was a time when CyanogenMod started preinstalling Google Apps on their OS, but Google told them to stop doing it so now they just install it separately after installing the OS.
      - 0x0 10y ago
        The closed-source Google Play Services and the Google APIs ecosystem is Google's single life-line to stay somewhat in control of Android. They have been moving more and more core Android stuff into these closed source libraries and making sure the convenience offered to developers is too good to refuse. This all happened circa Android 4.x. They must have realized they were giving away the farm for free to OEMs and so almost all new Android innovation is now implemented in the Google APIs SDK + Google Chrome. Good for google, sucks for AOSP OEMs and developers who just like to look at the source code of the libraries&system apps that they interface with. Android developers got lazy and started adding heavy gapi dependencies in almost every app, so much so that OEMs need to support this and the Google Play Store to stay relevant, at least at this moment. If Samsung, for example, started implementing a Google Play Services compatible shim, then there would be a pretty big power shift overnight. Heck, reimplementing other companies' APIs is par for the course on Android (oracle's java cough cough)
jessriedel 10y ago
Can anyone speak to success or usefulness of any of this Samsung software? In my experience, these are usually terrible and are in any case always worse than the Google equivalent. The first hour I own a Samsung phone is spent stripping these back as much as allowed. Do people really use these? Does Samsung really make money from them? Naively it seems like they must if they exist, but I wonder if it's just a continuing bet Samsung is making that has never paid off. EDIT: To be clear, if experts consider the apps to be worse but consumers still use them, this would explain why Samsung builds them. My question is whether they are actually used and, if not, why Samsung does this.
- wodenokoto 10y ago
  If you install linageOS, the picture quality of the camera apparently falls dramatically, so the software does something better than stock. With that being said, I do know people who prefer Samsung to stock android.
  - JoshTriplett 10y ago
    > If you install linageOS, the picture quality of the camera apparently falls dramatically, so the software does something better than stock. Drivers are another matter. But vendor replacement apps seem almost universally worse than the stock versions.
  - lake99 10y ago
    I can't speak about Samsung, but the Moto G4 Plus also suffers from the same limitation, that the stock camera app can't use the hardware's unique features. But there are ways to overcome that. It's pretty easy to find deodex ROMs for just the camera apps. That way, we can run the manufacturers' apps even if they have crippled their software to run on only their ROMs.
  - iOsiris 10y ago
    I thought it's because they don't release the blobs/binaries for the camera. So when you another ROM, you have to use generic post-processing for the camera
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
kpil 10y ago
I kind of almost get why Samsung is doing this, as they have identified that they will be looking at decreased margins as a hardware-only player but... Is it really viable? What do Samsung offer that Google doesn't already do. Is it possible to compete right now, in a head to head fight? Do the users care enough to chose Samsung? Those that care at all, are they not inclined to pick Google as the lesser evil of two megacorp? I have no idea if it's the case. I'm worried about Googles panopticon and market dominance, but Samsung's headquarters might be in a volcano, filled with CEOs, swivel chairs and white cats, for all I know. Or they might be run by angels that only wants to give us nice stuff... No idea.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  Samsung is basically the Korean government. Moreover, I rode in Samsung cars, used Samsung refrigerators, and I even saw advertisements for Samsung Life Insurance when I was visiting Seoul. They do everything.
  - chrischen 10y ago
    Japan is the same, and so is China. Those countries like conglomerates for coporate structures. I'd say the Western equivalent would be a holding company.
    - Godel_unicode 10y ago
      Obligatory link to Berkshire Hathaway holdings: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Berkshire_Hathaway#Subsidiaries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Berk...
    - mattnewton 10y ago
      China is? My impression was that successful buisinesses there were blessed by the government, as more of a top-down thing. I thought in Korea it was more like if Goldman Sachs was also Apple and GE- enormous influence, and politicians succeeded who were blessed by samsung.
  - 10y ago
itchyjunk 10y ago
I am glad Samsung is trying instead of just saying "we can't do better than google anyways." Maybe most of this might fail and maybe some even wont teach/contribute in any constructive way. But even with small percent of success they add a healthy competition and an alternative. That being said, I had no idea Samsung had all this going on before I read this article. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.
intrasight 10y ago
I'll agree that shifting consumer preferences related to software is a major threat to Samsung. I have for several years taken the position that there are only two smartphone options - the latest iPhone or the latest Google Nexus/Pixel.
- nitinreddy88 10y ago
  Probably this is not true everywhere. If you happen to notice is this in India, people here apparently buy Iphone or any budget level Android phone. People used to buy Nexus (very few) and now with Pixel, I havent seen single one sold out. Take it or not, people with money goes for IPhone and budget friendly goes to Xioami Mi or Samsung lower end. This is about one of the largest mobile phone users country. And apparently same holds for China
  - khrm 10y ago
    Oneplus is also a huge hit especially now that Nexus isn't there. Many people use 20-30k flagship phone of Xiaomi, Oneplus, Moto, lenovo, etc.
- ams6110 10y ago
  That's a ridiculously narrow assumption. There are millions of smartphone users who cannot afford either of these flagships, and people like me who could but refuse to spend the money on what I consider unnecessary features.
  - intrasight 10y ago
    I was just stating my position. Certainly others are free to take a different position. I still also have and use a Sanyo Mil-spec flip-phone - because sometimes the only necessary feature is to be able to reliably make and receive phone calls. Regarding smartphone features - the really don't differ very much. I buy Google phones because a) I want them unlocked, and b) I don't want malware and bloatware, and c) I want regular updates to OS.
    - 10y ago
salimmadjd 10y ago
I met the Samsung team by accident several years ago at TC Disrupt. We were having lunch at the same table. Being in the mobile health space, I instantly went into my pitching mode and started selling them on the virtues of mobile health and why it would help provide some platform stickiness (if I have a chronic disease and have lots of health data there, I wouldn't want to switch platform and lose my valuable data). This was before Apple Health was launched or was ever mentioned. Quickly it became clear to me, Samsung was ahead of me and they fully understood the value of health data. And it was very clear how strategic they were about the future of mobile and ways the would be able to keep people on their platform. It's obvious Samsung understands the value of software. Especially as more Chinese or Taiwanese companies are making competing hardware, it's become very difficult to differentiate or be able to differentiate in the long-run. It's natural Samsung would want to find ways of differentiating against their competitors. However, they have not been successful yet. I think part of the problem is corporate structure/culture. Will Samsung be able to build an entire consumer software division that is free to operate fast, test things and break things? Or will the team be slowed down having to coordinating with Seoul? Either way, Samsung will alway be one step behind Google, not having full visibility in Googles updates. And there is a chance that Google may want to put a distance between itself and the other handset makers just to reap more profits from their hardware division. If I was samsung, I would try to focus on killer apps within the asian market. For example, Yandex (of Russia) until recently (and maybe still) had far better map over google maps in their region. Even for places like Turkey, Yandex had a better map. Can Samsung become the brand for providing far better mapping technology in the region? Can they build much better search technology for asian languages?
- make3 10y ago
  "I met the Samsung team" Weirdly worded since the Samsung mobile team is fucking huge and fits in multiple buildings in multiple countries
  - jamestnz 10y ago
    Less weird when you take into consideration the rest of the sentence: "I met the Samsung team ... at TC Disrupt". So "team" in that context would be the folks that Samsung were sending to TC, not the whole company-wide team.
everyone 10y ago
Now that google are making their own phones in earnest I think they will start trying to hobble Android on Samsung phones.
- johncolanduoni 10y ago
  They don't really need to. Samsung already happily modifies as much AOSP code as they can get away with.
mark_l_watson 10y ago
I agree with the premise of the article, that software becomes more important than hardware at some point in the future. The only two phones I have owned are a Galaxy S3 and a Note 4: Samsung makes great hardware, but disabling bloat and waiting for Android updates is not good. I am almost two years past my trade up date, but the Note 4 keeps satisfying. I had intended to try an iPhone next, since I like my iPad and MacBook, but the S8 definitely has me tempted to stay with Samsung. The screen, with almost no bezel, is the selling point for me.
bogomipz 10y ago
I have a question does S8 run Tizen? I am guessing it doesn't since it has no mention in the article?
JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
I try using a Samsung phone and always run back to something with a more stock Android package, I don't think Google has anything to worry about on this front.
- dba7dba 10y ago
  Give this a read. http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/19/4120208/why-andy-rubin-android-called-it-quits http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/19/4120208/why-andy-rubin-and... Andy Rubin, creator of Android, left Google after a decade because Samsung became more closely identified with Android phone than Google, or something to that effect. "While Samsung got rich off shipping phones built on Android, Google’s brand faded into the background and its influence was chipped away."
wiradikusuma 10y ago
Samsung also downplaying Android the OS, that's why they have TouchWiz (like most software, first iterations are crappy, but constantly improving), so when they switch to different OS (say Tizen), people would still feel home. In Indonesia, there's a competition platform (like Kaggle, but for devs to make apps), and Samsung is one of the regular sponsors, holding competitions to build apps for Tizen, with interesting prizes.
- frik 10y ago
  Samsung exit strategy is Tizen. But they forgot to use the exit strategy back when Samsung produced 80-90% of all Android phones about 3 years ago. Now many cheap but equal as good Chinese phones got released. But Samsung might still try it, and partly migrated their users as their SmartTVs and watches run now on Tizen.
jorvi 10y ago
Samsung could easily fork Android and set up their own app store (just like Amazon). They account for over 50%(!) of the Android market. Hell, I'd like them to become the new Apple: Apple is ditching most of their peripheral hardware suite, they don't sell routers or displays anymore. If Samsung put in some effort they could create the same level of integration with their displays, phones, laptops, TVs etc. that Apple used to have.
- Oletros 10y ago
  > Samsung could easily fork Android and set up their own app store (just like Amazon). They have had an app store for years without any success
- izacus 10y ago
  Considering how terribly they behave in TV market (things like not allowing you to push app updated for more than 1 year old TVs!!!) they would just successfuly destroy their own ecosystem instead of being on equal footing with Apple. Samsung phones are successful due to hardware and DESPITE Samsung doing everything to undermine the experience with their crappy software. Without Google keeping them half sane with Play store limitations, they would already torpedo their whole ecosystem.
- valuearb 10y ago
  What talented engineers would every work for Samsung?
  - dba7dba 10y ago
    You probably wouldn't say that in front of the Samsung engineers that keep the production lines of their RAM, CPU, displays humming. They are engineers too, and with the scale they deal with, I'd say they are talented engineers.
espeed 10y ago
This. It's not about the hardware anymore, it's the software, services, and security that matter now. On these fronts Google is light years beyond Samsung or Apple, and the expanse is only going to get greater over the next 10 years, esp with its data resources combined with its advances in AI. Skate to where the puck is going.
- Razengan 10y ago
  Neither Google nor Microsoft (I wouldn't even count Samsung among the top players here) come close to the out-of-the-box experience and integration of services like you get in the Apple orchard. Read a book on my iPad and have my place, bookmark, notes, automatically show up my Mac. Same with movies and podcasts; they pick up from where I left even when I switch devices. AirPods work with all my devices without cumbersome unpair/re-pairing. Copy/paste across devices. The cloud-synced documents without even having to manually save them. All of that and more, all so seamless, with no configuration required on my part beyond signing with my Apple ID once on each device. This makes a huge difference to me as a user and Apple aren't under threat from anyone on that side.
  - emsy 10y ago
    On the other hand, Apples lack of support for standards is hurting their users. Metal instead of Vulkan, USB Micro/C vs. Lightning. No Miracast support. Most TV software has built in support for Android (simply show videos and photos on your TV). Better integration into the system. My router supports landline calls via smartphone, but iOS doesn't allow integration into the dialer. Copying non-iTunes music to your iPhone is still a PITA. If you don't live in an exclusively Apple environment, your experience will suck. Honestly, Google and the bad update support is the only reason I won't switch to Android. Definitely not the day-to-day user experience.
    - valuearb 10y ago
      Airplay was created because Miracast had sucked for years and still does. Apple always creates proprietary enhancements to make technologies work well in real use for real customers, like they did with Airplay/FaceTime, etc. And iOS 10 supports custom VOIP in the dialer.
bertlequant 10y ago
My dad used to have trouble with Enternet Explorer. Mainly, his sister in law would come visit, play a bunch of Flash games, and then his computer wouldn't work right anymore. So, I explained what Chrome was ("what's a browser?), installed an adblocker, removed the shortcut for Enternet Explorer, and replaced it with Chrome. He would say he understood he needed to click the Chrome logo and the internet would still be available like he was used to. When I would return days or weeks later, I would notice that Chrome was still there but IE had crept back somehow and he was using it. I think a similar pattern happens with phones. Whatever is baked in, gets used by the average user, regardless of how bad it sucks to someone in the know.
jpalomaki 10y ago
Samsung is also flirting with Microsoft, "The Microsoft Edition Android phone appears to be exactly the same as the regular version of the Galaxy S8 and Galaxy S8 Plus from a hardware perspective, but it will apparently have some features that make it easier to install and use Microsoft apps that don't already come preinstalled on the device, such as Outlook and Cortana, when users first connect to Wi-Fi. The Galaxy S8 will ship with Office basics such as Word, Excel and PowerPoint, as well as OneDrive and Skype" [1] http://www.windowscentral.com/samsung-galaxy-s8-microsoft-edition http://www.windowscentral.com/samsung-galaxy-s8-microsoft-ed...
- mtgx 10y ago
  They've been "flirting" since Windows Phone 8 days. Also, the "new Microsoft" is using its patent extortion scheme to get "deals" out of manufacturers, where they say they won't extort them anymore with patent royalties if the phone makers accept to put the Microsoft apps on their phones. http://www.androidauthority.com/microsoft-cuts-patent-fees-for-apps-600824/ http://www.androidauthority.com/microsoft-cuts-patent-fees-f... http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/23/12599132/lenovo-microsoft-office-skype-onedrive-android-devices http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/23/12599132/lenovo-microsoft-...
- askvictor 10y ago
  I recently purchased a refurbished s6, and it was preloaded with a heap of Microsoft apps (word, excel, pp, OneNote, I think Skype)
skdotdan 10y ago
Samsung should ship their phones with Tizen instead of Android. In the long term you are dead if you don't control your own software. They could build a "Android bridge" (an Android runtime for Tizen) and partner with the main app developers (in particular, Facebook) to upload their Android apps on Samsung's own store. It would be extremely risky but also it would pay off. Otherwise, they will be crushed in the Android phones commoditization race to bottom.
- vetinari 10y ago
  Samsung is terrible with their OS, if they switched phones to a software similar to their TVs, that would instantly kill their mobile division. Maybe they should look into bringing an AOSP phone without any cloud services (not only without Google, but without any; or at least easily uninstallable, unlike their current offering) and capitalize on recent anti-Google and anti-spying sentiment. That would require renegotiating their contract with Google through.
  - lvillani 10y ago
    As far as I understand it, having the right to sell a phone with Google Play Services is an all-or-nothing situation. > The OHA is a group of companies committed to Android—Google's Android—and members are contractually prohibited from building non-Google approved devices. That's right, joining the OHA requires a company to sign its life away and promise to not build a device that runs a competing Android fork. (cit. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/3/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on...)
    - on_and_off 10y ago
      Samsung probably has the position of strength to push for a phone without play services. However that's a lot of stuff that suddenly needs to be replaced and I don't see Samsung able to pull of correctly half of Play Services.
      - 10y ago
yogrish 10y ago
Samsung had always been scared of google. They developed and are still developing androids replacement OS called TIZEN. It's a total crap OS and never able to catch up with android. Most tizen phones are unsold and are given to its employees as annual gift.Samsung RnD in India is the worst place to work for.My friend worked here It has worst culture in SW industry. They think spending 12-15 hrs bring good software. It's Highly unethical company. They want to transform to a SW company by conducting SW exams to engineers. But they miss the point that it has to change its DNA first from its Factory and copycat mindset to innovation/skill based mindset that lot of western companies like google/Facebook/apple exhibit.
andmarios 10y ago
The title could be how Samsung wants to lock you in and call it brand loyalty. I don't want to use Samsung apps. Neither LG, Sony or HTC apps if they are restricted to certain handsets. I want to be able to switch smartphones without a cognitive overhead. Sure, zoom out a bit and buying into Google ecosystem looks the same, but still, the range of choice is match better. Want to win me over? Make your samsung app available for my lg phone and next time I am in the market for a new one, I will look more favorably upon you. Maybe there is something wrong with me as a consumer though, who knows.
- devoply 10y ago
  This is exactly right. Android is open source and more or less free for vendors who want to use it. If you want to deal with that then make your stuff open source and free, but then you lose competitive advantage and brand loyalty through lock-in and that's the point. You have to compete on other things like features and quality.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
    > You have to compete on other things like features and quality. Quality is obvious. People like well made things and are willing to pay for them. But features? What kind of feature won't require software or software support? Waterproofing? Curved screen?
cxf12 10y ago
Samsung pay has not disappointed.
cxf12 10y ago
Samsung Pay has not disappointed.
Zigurd 10y ago
Samsung's problems with software are a legacy of how Android was launched: Android had to be launched with the help of hardware OEMs. Hardware OEMs (with the exception of vertically integrated Apple) were, in turn, under the thumb of carriers. Both carriers are hardware OEMs are utter crapulent crap at software AND at product management, and at the time could be quite arrogant about it despite being hopeless. Now that Android is mature, OEM and carrier modifications should be limited and strictly user uninstallable. Even in the short history of modern smartphones, this has been evident for several years now. But that legacy of carrier dominance of phone specs and crap product management persist. Google has been unable to get a handle on this problem. If you are in the know, choose a Nexus or Pixel device. But Android Silver, Android One, Google Play Edition, etc. have all gone by the boards as OEMs drift back into "but we need differentiation." The upshot is that Samsung's biggest challenge is to simply refrain from adding bloat and confusion. Their product management should be asking "Is this SO much better than what Google has that it would dominate the category if we put it on Google Play for everyone to use?" If not, it needs gone.
sharpshadow 10y ago
Broadly spoken surpassing should be a consequence not the aim. Having a rich feature set, at least as rich as your competitors, is required to offer the same playground. Before you can evaluate two features there have to be two features. In this sense Samsung is already on the right way. If their software will ever surpass Googles, well everything is possible.

149 points by ptrptr 10y ago

MattRogish 10y ago

Well, yeah. That's why they bought Joyent.

macspoofing 10y ago
Pretty UI is not Samsung's problem.
- bitmapbrother 10y ago
  On the contrary. TouchWiz is the antithesis of "pretty UI".
  - Godel_unicode 10y ago
    Samsung can be bad at pretty UI (no judgement here on whether or not they are) without that being their problem.

Hydraulix989 10y ago

My biggest challenge with Samsung was the software customizations they put on their phones. A lot of it is just bonafide bloat -- there's even a Samsung Printing Service on my phone, and some of it is just completely unwanted UI modifications like "TouchWiz". Samsung even acts as an intermediate layer of bureaucracy that further delays receiving OS updates (i.e. first the update has to come from Google, then Samsung takes Google's update and has to take time to make their customizations to it adding in their Printing Service and their completely redundant Samsung Messages app, then the carriers take Samsung's update and apply their own modifications like restricting tethering and adding Verizon Messages, NFL, and VZ Maps Navigation, all with restricted uninstallations). My perfectly-capable Galaxy S6 will likely never see the day when it can run Android N. I have since switched to the Google Nexus 6P, which has a vanilla Google version of Android, and I am much happier with a cleaner, much more streamlined personal device. On the other hand, given that Android is open source, I'm curious why Samsung can't just put something like Cyanogenmod on the S8 (or their own forked "custom ROM") and call it a day?

massysett 10y ago
They could, but you would then have something like a Kindle Fire, or the touchscreen thingy in a new car: something that runs the same code as Android, but doesn't run Google apps. As far as a consumer is concerned, this isn't Android at all.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  I'm confused, you can download and install Google Apps for Cyanogenmod. Is it a licensing issue?
  - bitmapbrother 10y ago
    I think you mean Lineage OS as CyanogenMod is no longer. Google doesn't really care about Lineage OS because their install base is insignificant. There was a time when CyanogenMod started preinstalling Google Apps on their OS, but Google told them to stop doing it so now they just install it separately after installing the OS.
    - 0x0 10y ago
      The closed-source Google Play Services and the Google APIs ecosystem is Google's single life-line to stay somewhat in control of Android. They have been moving more and more core Android stuff into these closed source libraries and making sure the convenience offered to developers is too good to refuse. This all happened circa Android 4.x. They must have realized they were giving away the farm for free to OEMs and so almost all new Android innovation is now implemented in the Google APIs SDK + Google Chrome. Good for google, sucks for AOSP OEMs and developers who just like to look at the source code of the libraries&system apps that they interface with. Android developers got lazy and started adding heavy gapi dependencies in almost every app, so much so that OEMs need to support this and the Google Play Store to stay relevant, at least at this moment. If Samsung, for example, started implementing a Google Play Services compatible shim, then there would be a pretty big power shift overnight. Heck, reimplementing other companies' APIs is par for the course on Android (oracle's java cough cough)

jessriedel 10y ago

Can anyone speak to success or usefulness of any of this Samsung software? In my experience, these are usually terrible and are in any case always worse than the Google equivalent. The first hour I own a Samsung phone is spent stripping these back as much as allowed. Do people really use these? Does Samsung really make money from them? Naively it seems like they must if they exist, but I wonder if it's just a continuing bet Samsung is making that has never paid off. EDIT: To be clear, if experts consider the apps to be worse but consumers still use them, this would explain why Samsung builds them. My question is whether they are actually used and, if not, why Samsung does this.

wodenokoto 10y ago
If you install linageOS, the picture quality of the camera apparently falls dramatically, so the software does something better than stock. With that being said, I do know people who prefer Samsung to stock android.
- JoshTriplett 10y ago
  > If you install linageOS, the picture quality of the camera apparently falls dramatically, so the software does something better than stock. Drivers are another matter. But vendor replacement apps seem almost universally worse than the stock versions.
- lake99 10y ago
  I can't speak about Samsung, but the Moto G4 Plus also suffers from the same limitation, that the stock camera app can't use the hardware's unique features. But there are ways to overcome that. It's pretty easy to find deodex ROMs for just the camera apps. That way, we can run the manufacturers' apps even if they have crippled their software to run on only their ROMs.
- iOsiris 10y ago
  I thought it's because they don't release the blobs/binaries for the camera. So when you another ROM, you have to use generic post-processing for the camera

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

kpil 10y ago

I kind of almost get why Samsung is doing this, as they have identified that they will be looking at decreased margins as a hardware-only player but... Is it really viable? What do Samsung offer that Google doesn't already do. Is it possible to compete right now, in a head to head fight? Do the users care enough to chose Samsung? Those that care at all, are they not inclined to pick Google as the lesser evil of two megacorp? I have no idea if it's the case. I'm worried about Googles panopticon and market dominance, but Samsung's headquarters might be in a volcano, filled with CEOs, swivel chairs and white cats, for all I know. Or they might be run by angels that only wants to give us nice stuff... No idea.

Hydraulix989 10y ago
Samsung is basically the Korean government. Moreover, I rode in Samsung cars, used Samsung refrigerators, and I even saw advertisements for Samsung Life Insurance when I was visiting Seoul. They do everything.
- chrischen 10y ago
  Japan is the same, and so is China. Those countries like conglomerates for coporate structures. I'd say the Western equivalent would be a holding company.
  - Godel_unicode 10y ago
    Obligatory link to Berkshire Hathaway holdings: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Berkshire_Hathaway#Subsidiaries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Berk...
  - mattnewton 10y ago
    China is? My impression was that successful buisinesses there were blessed by the government, as more of a top-down thing. I thought in Korea it was more like if Goldman Sachs was also Apple and GE- enormous influence, and politicians succeeded who were blessed by samsung.
- 10y ago

itchyjunk 10y ago

I am glad Samsung is trying instead of just saying "we can't do better than google anyways." Maybe most of this might fail and maybe some even wont teach/contribute in any constructive way. But even with small percent of success they add a healthy competition and an alternative. That being said, I had no idea Samsung had all this going on before I read this article. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.

intrasight 10y ago

I'll agree that shifting consumer preferences related to software is a major threat to Samsung. I have for several years taken the position that there are only two smartphone options - the latest iPhone or the latest Google Nexus/Pixel.

nitinreddy88 10y ago
Probably this is not true everywhere. If you happen to notice is this in India, people here apparently buy Iphone or any budget level Android phone. People used to buy Nexus (very few) and now with Pixel, I havent seen single one sold out. Take it or not, people with money goes for IPhone and budget friendly goes to Xioami Mi or Samsung lower end. This is about one of the largest mobile phone users country. And apparently same holds for China
- khrm 10y ago
  Oneplus is also a huge hit especially now that Nexus isn't there. Many people use 20-30k flagship phone of Xiaomi, Oneplus, Moto, lenovo, etc.
ams6110 10y ago
That's a ridiculously narrow assumption. There are millions of smartphone users who cannot afford either of these flagships, and people like me who could but refuse to spend the money on what I consider unnecessary features.
- intrasight 10y ago
  I was just stating my position. Certainly others are free to take a different position. I still also have and use a Sanyo Mil-spec flip-phone - because sometimes the only necessary feature is to be able to reliably make and receive phone calls. Regarding smartphone features - the really don't differ very much. I buy Google phones because a) I want them unlocked, and b) I don't want malware and bloatware, and c) I want regular updates to OS.
  - 10y ago

salimmadjd 10y ago

I met the Samsung team by accident several years ago at TC Disrupt. We were having lunch at the same table. Being in the mobile health space, I instantly went into my pitching mode and started selling them on the virtues of mobile health and why it would help provide some platform stickiness (if I have a chronic disease and have lots of health data there, I wouldn't want to switch platform and lose my valuable data). This was before Apple Health was launched or was ever mentioned. Quickly it became clear to me, Samsung was ahead of me and they fully understood the value of health data. And it was very clear how strategic they were about the future of mobile and ways the would be able to keep people on their platform. It's obvious Samsung understands the value of software. Especially as more Chinese or Taiwanese companies are making competing hardware, it's become very difficult to differentiate or be able to differentiate in the long-run. It's natural Samsung would want to find ways of differentiating against their competitors. However, they have not been successful yet. I think part of the problem is corporate structure/culture. Will Samsung be able to build an entire consumer software division that is free to operate fast, test things and break things? Or will the team be slowed down having to coordinating with Seoul? Either way, Samsung will alway be one step behind Google, not having full visibility in Googles updates. And there is a chance that Google may want to put a distance between itself and the other handset makers just to reap more profits from their hardware division. If I was samsung, I would try to focus on killer apps within the asian market. For example, Yandex (of Russia) until recently (and maybe still) had far better map over google maps in their region. Even for places like Turkey, Yandex had a better map. Can Samsung become the brand for providing far better mapping technology in the region? Can they build much better search technology for asian languages?

make3 10y ago
"I met the Samsung team" Weirdly worded since the Samsung mobile team is fucking huge and fits in multiple buildings in multiple countries
- jamestnz 10y ago
  Less weird when you take into consideration the rest of the sentence: "I met the Samsung team ... at TC Disrupt". So "team" in that context would be the folks that Samsung were sending to TC, not the whole company-wide team.

everyone 10y ago

Now that google are making their own phones in earnest I think they will start trying to hobble Android on Samsung phones.

johncolanduoni 10y ago
They don't really need to. Samsung already happily modifies as much AOSP code as they can get away with.

mark_l_watson 10y ago

I agree with the premise of the article, that software becomes more important than hardware at some point in the future. The only two phones I have owned are a Galaxy S3 and a Note 4: Samsung makes great hardware, but disabling bloat and waiting for Android updates is not good. I am almost two years past my trade up date, but the Note 4 keeps satisfying. I had intended to try an iPhone next, since I like my iPad and MacBook, but the S8 definitely has me tempted to stay with Samsung. The screen, with almost no bezel, is the selling point for me.

bogomipz 10y ago

I have a question does S8 run Tizen? I am guessing it doesn't since it has no mention in the article?

JohnJamesRambo 10y ago

I try using a Samsung phone and always run back to something with a more stock Android package, I don't think Google has anything to worry about on this front.

dba7dba 10y ago
Give this a read. http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/19/4120208/why-andy-rubin-android-called-it-quits http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/19/4120208/why-andy-rubin-and... Andy Rubin, creator of Android, left Google after a decade because Samsung became more closely identified with Android phone than Google, or something to that effect. "While Samsung got rich off shipping phones built on Android, Google’s brand faded into the background and its influence was chipped away."

wiradikusuma 10y ago

Samsung also downplaying Android the OS, that's why they have TouchWiz (like most software, first iterations are crappy, but constantly improving), so when they switch to different OS (say Tizen), people would still feel home. In Indonesia, there's a competition platform (like Kaggle, but for devs to make apps), and Samsung is one of the regular sponsors, holding competitions to build apps for Tizen, with interesting prizes.

frik 10y ago
Samsung exit strategy is Tizen. But they forgot to use the exit strategy back when Samsung produced 80-90% of all Android phones about 3 years ago. Now many cheap but equal as good Chinese phones got released. But Samsung might still try it, and partly migrated their users as their SmartTVs and watches run now on Tizen.

jorvi 10y ago

Samsung could easily fork Android and set up their own app store (just like Amazon). They account for over 50%(!) of the Android market. Hell, I'd like them to become the new Apple: Apple is ditching most of their peripheral hardware suite, they don't sell routers or displays anymore. If Samsung put in some effort they could create the same level of integration with their displays, phones, laptops, TVs etc. that Apple used to have.

Oletros 10y ago
> Samsung could easily fork Android and set up their own app store (just like Amazon). They have had an app store for years without any success
izacus 10y ago
Considering how terribly they behave in TV market (things like not allowing you to push app updated for more than 1 year old TVs!!!) they would just successfuly destroy their own ecosystem instead of being on equal footing with Apple. Samsung phones are successful due to hardware and DESPITE Samsung doing everything to undermine the experience with their crappy software. Without Google keeping them half sane with Play store limitations, they would already torpedo their whole ecosystem.
valuearb 10y ago
What talented engineers would every work for Samsung?
- dba7dba 10y ago
  You probably wouldn't say that in front of the Samsung engineers that keep the production lines of their RAM, CPU, displays humming. They are engineers too, and with the scale they deal with, I'd say they are talented engineers.

espeed 10y ago

This. It's not about the hardware anymore, it's the software, services, and security that matter now. On these fronts Google is light years beyond Samsung or Apple, and the expanse is only going to get greater over the next 10 years, esp with its data resources combined with its advances in AI. Skate to where the puck is going.

Razengan 10y ago
Neither Google nor Microsoft (I wouldn't even count Samsung among the top players here) come close to the out-of-the-box experience and integration of services like you get in the Apple orchard. Read a book on my iPad and have my place, bookmark, notes, automatically show up my Mac. Same with movies and podcasts; they pick up from where I left even when I switch devices. AirPods work with all my devices without cumbersome unpair/re-pairing. Copy/paste across devices. The cloud-synced documents without even having to manually save them. All of that and more, all so seamless, with no configuration required on my part beyond signing with my Apple ID once on each device. This makes a huge difference to me as a user and Apple aren't under threat from anyone on that side.
- emsy 10y ago
  On the other hand, Apples lack of support for standards is hurting their users. Metal instead of Vulkan, USB Micro/C vs. Lightning. No Miracast support. Most TV software has built in support for Android (simply show videos and photos on your TV). Better integration into the system. My router supports landline calls via smartphone, but iOS doesn't allow integration into the dialer. Copying non-iTunes music to your iPhone is still a PITA. If you don't live in an exclusively Apple environment, your experience will suck. Honestly, Google and the bad update support is the only reason I won't switch to Android. Definitely not the day-to-day user experience.
  - valuearb 10y ago
    Airplay was created because Miracast had sucked for years and still does. Apple always creates proprietary enhancements to make technologies work well in real use for real customers, like they did with Airplay/FaceTime, etc. And iOS 10 supports custom VOIP in the dialer.

bertlequant 10y ago

My dad used to have trouble with Enternet Explorer. Mainly, his sister in law would come visit, play a bunch of Flash games, and then his computer wouldn't work right anymore. So, I explained what Chrome was ("what's a browser?), installed an adblocker, removed the shortcut for Enternet Explorer, and replaced it with Chrome. He would say he understood he needed to click the Chrome logo and the internet would still be available like he was used to. When I would return days or weeks later, I would notice that Chrome was still there but IE had crept back somehow and he was using it. I think a similar pattern happens with phones. Whatever is baked in, gets used by the average user, regardless of how bad it sucks to someone in the know.

jpalomaki 10y ago

Samsung is also flirting with Microsoft, "The Microsoft Edition Android phone appears to be exactly the same as the regular version of the Galaxy S8 and Galaxy S8 Plus from a hardware perspective, but it will apparently have some features that make it easier to install and use Microsoft apps that don't already come preinstalled on the device, such as Outlook and Cortana, when users first connect to Wi-Fi. The Galaxy S8 will ship with Office basics such as Word, Excel and PowerPoint, as well as OneDrive and Skype" [1] http://www.windowscentral.com/samsung-galaxy-s8-microsoft-edition http://www.windowscentral.com/samsung-galaxy-s8-microsoft-ed...

mtgx 10y ago
They've been "flirting" since Windows Phone 8 days. Also, the "new Microsoft" is using its patent extortion scheme to get "deals" out of manufacturers, where they say they won't extort them anymore with patent royalties if the phone makers accept to put the Microsoft apps on their phones. http://www.androidauthority.com/microsoft-cuts-patent-fees-for-apps-600824/ http://www.androidauthority.com/microsoft-cuts-patent-fees-f... http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/23/12599132/lenovo-microsoft-office-skype-onedrive-android-devices http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/23/12599132/lenovo-microsoft-...
askvictor 10y ago
I recently purchased a refurbished s6, and it was preloaded with a heap of Microsoft apps (word, excel, pp, OneNote, I think Skype)

skdotdan 10y ago

Samsung should ship their phones with Tizen instead of Android. In the long term you are dead if you don't control your own software. They could build a "Android bridge" (an Android runtime for Tizen) and partner with the main app developers (in particular, Facebook) to upload their Android apps on Samsung's own store. It would be extremely risky but also it would pay off. Otherwise, they will be crushed in the Android phones commoditization race to bottom.

vetinari 10y ago
Samsung is terrible with their OS, if they switched phones to a software similar to their TVs, that would instantly kill their mobile division. Maybe they should look into bringing an AOSP phone without any cloud services (not only without Google, but without any; or at least easily uninstallable, unlike their current offering) and capitalize on recent anti-Google and anti-spying sentiment. That would require renegotiating their contract with Google through.
- lvillani 10y ago
  As far as I understand it, having the right to sell a phone with Google Play Services is an all-or-nothing situation. > The OHA is a group of companies committed to Android—Google's Android—and members are contractually prohibited from building non-Google approved devices. That's right, joining the OHA requires a company to sign its life away and promise to not build a device that runs a competing Android fork. (cit. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/3/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on...)
  - on_and_off 10y ago
    Samsung probably has the position of strength to push for a phone without play services. However that's a lot of stuff that suddenly needs to be replaced and I don't see Samsung able to pull of correctly half of Play Services.
    - 10y ago

yogrish 10y ago

Samsung had always been scared of google. They developed and are still developing androids replacement OS called TIZEN. It's a total crap OS and never able to catch up with android. Most tizen phones are unsold and are given to its employees as annual gift.Samsung RnD in India is the worst place to work for.My friend worked here It has worst culture in SW industry. They think spending 12-15 hrs bring good software. It's Highly unethical company. They want to transform to a SW company by conducting SW exams to engineers. But they miss the point that it has to change its DNA first from its Factory and copycat mindset to innovation/skill based mindset that lot of western companies like google/Facebook/apple exhibit.

andmarios 10y ago

The title could be how Samsung wants to lock you in and call it brand loyalty. I don't want to use Samsung apps. Neither LG, Sony or HTC apps if they are restricted to certain handsets. I want to be able to switch smartphones without a cognitive overhead. Sure, zoom out a bit and buying into Google ecosystem looks the same, but still, the range of choice is match better. Want to win me over? Make your samsung app available for my lg phone and next time I am in the market for a new one, I will look more favorably upon you. Maybe there is something wrong with me as a consumer though, who knows.

devoply 10y ago
This is exactly right. Android is open source and more or less free for vendors who want to use it. If you want to deal with that then make your stuff open source and free, but then you lose competitive advantage and brand loyalty through lock-in and that's the point. You have to compete on other things like features and quality.
- 2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
  > You have to compete on other things like features and quality. Quality is obvious. People like well made things and are willing to pay for them. But features? What kind of feature won't require software or software support? Waterproofing? Curved screen?

cxf12 10y ago

Samsung pay has not disappointed.

cxf12 10y ago

Samsung Pay has not disappointed.

Zigurd 10y ago

Samsung's problems with software are a legacy of how Android was launched: Android had to be launched with the help of hardware OEMs. Hardware OEMs (with the exception of vertically integrated Apple) were, in turn, under the thumb of carriers. Both carriers are hardware OEMs are utter crapulent crap at software AND at product management, and at the time could be quite arrogant about it despite being hopeless. Now that Android is mature, OEM and carrier modifications should be limited and strictly user uninstallable. Even in the short history of modern smartphones, this has been evident for several years now. But that legacy of carrier dominance of phone specs and crap product management persist. Google has been unable to get a handle on this problem. If you are in the know, choose a Nexus or Pixel device. But Android Silver, Android One, Google Play Edition, etc. have all gone by the boards as OEMs drift back into "but we need differentiation." The upshot is that Samsung's biggest challenge is to simply refrain from adding bloat and confusion. Their product management should be asking "Is this SO much better than what Google has that it would dominate the category if we put it on Google Play for everyone to use?" If not, it needs gone.

sharpshadow 10y ago

Broadly spoken surpassing should be a consequence not the aim. Having a rich feature set, at least as rich as your competitors, is required to offer the same playground. Before you can evaluate two features there have to be two features. In this sense Samsung is already on the right way. If their software will ever surpass Googles, well everything is possible.