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Airbnb “Bribes” Host with Cash Under NDA After Partiers Destroy Apartment

• A_Crazy_Idea 10y ago
  niggers niggers niggers niggers niggers niggers niggers niggers niggers [redacted]
• forsaken 10y ago
  Countdown until this gets buried by the mods? Ref: * https://twitter.com/bryanl/status/833711188940845062 https://twitter.com/bryanl/status/833711188940845062 * https://twitter.com/dhh/status/833701507585437700 https://twitter.com/dhh/status/833701507585437700
  • dang 10y ago
    Not sure what you're alluding to and it's pretty hard to answer vague insinuations—in fact it's impossible.
    • bigtimeidiot 10y ago
      >I'm not sure what you're alluding to I have no opinion on the matter, but clearly the OP is alluding to the fact that HN will bury negative stories about their investments.
      • dang 10y ago
        That first tweet is about Uber. Uber is not a YC investment. It's also one of the most heavily discussed topics on HN, so it's hard to understand what's being claimed there. The idea that HN "buries stories about [YC] investments" is one some people assume must be true—as you did, for example, in your use of the word 'fact' above. But the truth is the opposite. When stories are negative about YC or YC-funded companies, we moderate them less, not more, than we otherwise would. I've posted about this plenty of times, e.g. recently at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13861389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13861389. For example, consider the current post. This is not a good HN story, because it doesn't describe anything of intellectual interest. It also has a baity and misleading title, which breaks the rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. But we haven't penalized it, and we haven't replaced the title other than to put quotation marks around "bribes", in response to a user's objection. Intervening less in such cases, even at the expense of HN's quality, is the price we pay for being able to answer comments like yours and the GP's in good faith.
        • gamblor956 10y ago
          This might be a new policy now that you're the head moderator, but the reason this complaint pops up every time there's a negative post about a YC company is because for several years there was a noticeable, nearly 100% correlation between "negative post about a YC company" and "gone from the front page within 3 hours despite dozens or even hundreds of upvotes."
          • dang 10y ago
            It isn't a new policy; as I've posted elsewhere in the thread, "moderate HN less, not more, when YC or a YC startup is involved" is literally the first thing pg taught me about how to moderate HN. In fact he blurted it at me before I even had a chance to grab a chair. I doubt these complaints pop up because of years ago, though. People just assume that's how it works whether it does that way or not, and confirmation bias does the rest, i.e. we notice the data points that match our assumptions much more than ones that don't. Plus it's fun to trade those with others who share the same view.
          • tptacek 10y ago
            Dan has been the head moderator for years, and was a moderator long before it was public that he was. PG was more capricious with moderation than Dan was, but when Dan says Paul Graham believed not showing favoritism to YC was a priority of his, I believe him. Say what you want about anybody else at YC, but Dan is one of the most trustworthy people in show business. If he says a story didn't get suppressed by the mods, bank on that.
            • pbhjpbhj 10y ago
              >If he says a story didn't get suppressed by the mods, bank on that. // I don't really doubt you tptacek, nor indeed doubt dang, but this is a problem with closed moderation we can't see whether YC manipulates the rankings to their benefit financially or otherwise and for those people who don't know you or dang personally there's little provable trust to be carried by such comments as you've made here.
        • 10y ago
  • j_s 10y ago
    Stories usually disappear becaues of user flagging, not the mods. Except for that one time... ;) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13857086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13857086
• rdl 10y ago
  I don't understand how people could do that much damage and it would only come to $8k. Just the cleanup and repairs to the complex outside of his property should be nearly that much; losing his lease, other damages, and damage to his property should be a lot more than that.
  • detaro 10y ago
    It reads like he only submitted claims for repairs to his apartment (for whatever reason, maybe he wasn't billed for repairs/cleanup outside of it). I'd be surprised if AirBnb would cover him loosing his lease.
    • rdl 10y ago
      Maybe he had renter's insurance or something, or some other form of liability insurance? (I don't know how this works in the UK). If I were the lessor/host, I'd demand Airbnb pay 100% and then let them go after whichever other parties they want later. The host should not be the one on the hook for any of this, including float for however long reimbursement takes. (If I were Airbnb I'd probably sue the guest; clearly there was some level of organization if they brought in an audio system and had an event. Even if it cost them $20k in legal to go after a $10k judgment it is probably worth the precedent.)
      • cestith 10y ago
        I'd be surprised if residential renter's insurance in the US, UK, or Canada covered things done during a daily sublet of the space without some special rider policy. This customer should be covered well enough by AirBNB's agreement, which apparently only with the help of The Observer is actually the case.
        • rdl 10y ago
          I think it would be easy for a policy to waive contents insurance in such a case, but a lot more challenging if it waived liability. (Otherwise, as a condo association or whatever, you could be potentially ruined if any condo owner owns a unit, has "full insurance" as required, and sublets/has a guest burn the entire building down.) Insurers have far deeper pockets than individual property owners, guests, or condo associations. It's possible the condo association would have additional liability insurance above and beyond this which would step in, though.
• CptJamesCook 10y ago
  Airbnb guests constantly rent my place to party. It's been a problem for years, at both of my homes. I block many of them, but can't detect them all. The other day an airbnb guest held a party, and they trashed my neighbor's balcony (below mine). They need to get partying off the platform. It's terrible for neighbors and hosts, and it's not even much revenue; the partiers usually book for one night. Regular guests on average stay 4-5 nights.
  • mcbruiser3 10y ago
    Seems like most of the complaints about Airbnb that result in new ordinances banning short term rentals probably originate from bad guests (or irresponsible hosts who allow bad behavior and ignore the impact to their neighbor's peace) who are ruining it for everyone else.
    • AlexandrB 10y ago
      Yes. It's almost like hotel regulations happened for a reason and not because "the man is out to get entrepreneurs".
      • jpttsn 10y ago
        There is a reason. It would make sense if those regulations happened for that reason. But I'm not convinced that's how politics works.
      • exclusiv 10y ago
        What regulations are you referring to that would prevent this? You can just as easily book a hotel and throw a party there and do all sorts of damage. They don't take much of a deposit either (or they hold a card) because there's a fine line between protecting yourself and a sensible amount for your average guest. The problem here is that AirBnB takes a good chunk of a booking and doesn't do much to vet guests. They also haven't shown to be friendly and trusting with hosts that make claims even though they market a policy to protect larger losses to make you feel more willing to add your home to the pool. I've been lucky; only had a few bookings I wouldn't want back and mostly they just destroy the hot tub with spilled drinks and I have to refill it. I try to avoid one-night stays as much as possible. I set a higher deposit too to filter our the partiers and don't do instant book. They'll choose a place with a lower deposit and instant-book instead. I also have 3 outdoor cameras so I can see what's going on at my place and how many people are showing up. I'm legally approved to sleep 16. So if it gets crazy; I'll call the police. I think it's stupid to rent out a condo unless you vet every guest manually. However, I'd still ban it if I was on their HOA. It's a real security issue. You have to trust the person who books and everyone they bring. AirBnB should enact a sizable fine for exceeding their approved guests. Then we could just submit video/image evidence of how many people came and AirBnB could hit the guest with the fine and not be so stingy with their "insurance" policy for hosts.
• larrik 10y ago
  It's 8k pounds, though, which is a lot more than 8k dollars. Edit: I'm impressed how my bad reading comprehension spawned so many replies.
  • drusepth 10y ago
    8k pounds is $9982.40, to be exact.
    • dawnerd 10y ago
      Which even that isn't close to enough.
      • mikeash 10y ago
        The host seems to think it was, since that's what he originally claimed.
  • rdl 10y ago
    No. "which came to a total cost of around £6,400 (about $8,000)" (from TFA). I'm arguing more for $50k+. The GBP/USD difference isn't significant. (For anything less than $10k or so, as long as it was at all substantiated, AirBNB should just pay -- at worst, ban the host. The PR hit from this article is probably $500k already?)
    • diminoten 10y ago
      > The PR hit from this article is probably $500k already? I highly doubt that.
      • ethbro 10y ago
        It doesn't take many full-time rentals to be pulled to make $500k, especially with the type of halo properties that AirBnB probably loves to list. But who would also be a bit concerned after reading an article that AirBnB's damage guarantee wasn't followed through on in a clear and reasonable manner.
• rdl 10y ago
  Tangentially, as a guest, I've found a new (to me) use for Airbnb -- renting places in areas I'm considering a long lease or purchase. And for "work from home", it's actually possible to check with hosts and verify good Internet (in WA, Wave G or Frontier FIOS or something), which is a lot harder in hotels.
  • jackhammer2022 10y ago
    Do you stick a budget for your WFH rentals? How long do you rent for?
    • rdl 10y ago
      For 4 APR - 10 MAY in Redmond/Bellevue I have the downstairs of a house (3 bedrooms) with 100/100 FiOS for $2k. I'm fine with that as home + wfh, since it means I can delay signing a 12mo+ lease for 3mo (as I'll be in Ukraine in June/July).
  • kyleblarson 10y ago
    Spot on. I'm currently working from an Airbnb in Sedona to escape the snowmelt in my mountain home town. Host verified internet for me and it's great.
  • jessriedel 10y ago
    When I recently moved to Toronto, this is how I picked the neighborhood to live in.
• diminoten 10y ago
  A lot of confusing points to this story. I'm not defending AirBnB, but this story does baffle on a number of levels. > (they came with a professional sound system) How do you not see this coming, from a host perspective? Big red flag. How this get anywhere near as far as it did? "Well I figured the professional sound system was going to be fine in my apartment complex." > Neighbors called the police five times and some partiers left, but most remained and locked themselves inside to continue partying. If the police want to enter a home, and the owner of the home agrees to it, since when do the people in the home get a say as to whether or not the police can/cannot enter? AirBnB handled this very poorly, but why is AirBnB fully responsible for this? I get that they're trying to attract people to put their homes on their service, and they offer to be responsible, but why can't Dinulescu go after the idiots who did this to his apartment directly? Why can't AirBnB do that? How can a person go into another person's home, as a guest, do something like this, and not be held responsible, either civilly or criminally?
  • CptJamesCook 10y ago
    Airbnb is at fault because they do nothing to discourage partying on the platform. As a host, I am in a never-ending battle to keep partiers out of my home.
    • diminoten 10y ago
      Okay sure, that's a fair point, but are you really not finding this story to be fairly incredible? I just find it astounding that a group of partiers could possibly even lock themselves in a home they're being kicked out of and the police wouldn't be able to dislodge them, and then on top of that none of the partiers would be charged or held responsible in any way. I guess I'd rely on my government to protect me at this point, to some degree.
  • supercanuck 10y ago
    > but why is AirBnB fully responsible for this? Because they are literally committing to it as part of their service offering: >We’re committed to creating a safe and trusted community around the world. Though property damage is rare, we understand you may need protection. The Host Guarantee will reimburse eligible hosts for damages up to $1,000,000. a https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee
• RcouF1uZ4gsC 10y ago
  Why do people find it surprising that companies who exist mainly on the premise of ignoring laws/regulations they find inconvenient, won't eventually ignore laws/regulations that you think worthwhile (ie Uber and sexual harassment and AirBnb and paying for damages). In addition, I find it interesting that the host is only sending a bill for $8000. It seems as if he is only trying to get paid for his damages and not even considering the damage and disruption to his neighbors (who unlike the host are wholly blameless in this manner). It seems AirBnb attracts the jerks and freeloaders.
  • gambiting 10y ago
    In the UK it's nearly unheard of to be suing for anything other than material/health damages. An unspecified "disruption to neighbours" is worth exactly zero in court.
    • stordoff 10y ago
      This is not the case. Disruption to neighbours could result in a claim of nuisance (things such as physical invasion of the land, noise, and smells all potentially give rise to nuisance). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuisance_in_English_law#Private_nuisance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuisance_in_English_law#Privat...
  • dvdhnt 10y ago
    > It seems as if he is only trying to get paid for his damages and not even considering the damage and disruption to his neighbors (who unlike the host are wholly blameless in this manner). I don't agree with this. Obviously, if a bystander's property was damaged, this would be true, however, the idea of being paid for a "disruption" is silly. It's called life and it's full of annoyances. I'd argue the people angling for compensation because they're annoyed probably fall into the jerk and freeloader category more than someone who is willing to forgo reimbursement for his damaged property in order to warn the public about a potential pitfall.
    • Marazan 10y ago
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• jsiegz 10y ago
  Bribes are generally illegal. This should be "compensates," not "bribes." "Bribes" is just hyperbole. This is standard practice for a lot of businesses in a similar space.
  • supercanuck 10y ago
    bribe would be accurate since they were offering payment outside their remediation process they setup. Instead of simply offering payment in exchange for the damage per their guarantee, they wanted something in return: Silence.
    • twblalock 10y ago
      Asking for confidentiality about the terms of a settlement is common, and there is nothing wrong with it.
      • supercanuck 10y ago
        sure, just like there is nothing "wrong" with calling it a bribe. They wanted something outside of their official process.
        • jpttsn 10y ago
          What if one day the Airbnb exec privately pockets money for getting someone into an apartment? You've already used "bribe;" where do you go from there? The problem with hyperbole is you will pay the inflation tax on your word choice. Crying wolf, basically.
          • supercanuck 10y ago
            I just bribed my kid to do his homework. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bribe https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bribe I am using the word correctly. Perhaps you should consider if you're interpretation of the word is not biased?
• geoffmcc 10y ago
  >> https://web.archive.org/web/20170330184054/http://observer.com/2017/03/airbnb-nda-damage-in-london-after-drug-party/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170330184054/http://observer.c... archive of page. adds were crashing my browser.
• mikeash 10y ago
  What's going on here? The first half of the story sounds like routine corporate incompetency. Representatives don't read your stuff, can't be bothered to follow their own procedures, and screw you over. Unacceptable but, alas, fairly common when dealing with big companies. The NDA is where it goes off the rails. He's entitled to that money, so why would they try to put conditions on it? I'm sure they're not thrilled to have him talking, but it's not like they have a choice in the matter. Once someone who is allowed to use their brains got involved, the result should have been a quick payment and an end to the saga.
  • kazinator 10y ago
    It's not unusual for settlements to have conditions attached, which makes this NDA thing somewhat less outlandish than it seems at first. For instance, if you settle with an insurance company after a car accident, you may have to sign something which says "that is it", waiving your right to sue anyone for anything more. If the person is properly compensated 100%, but keeps talking, it can be argued that their material damage has been fully restored, while they continue to inflict material damage against the other party. Thus there is some unfairness there. AirBNB, the company, didn't wreck that apartment; the renters did. Not that the devil would ever have me as his advocate, but let me play one for a second ...
    • hysan 10y ago
      > you may have to sign something which says "that is it", waiving your right to sue anyone for anything more Isn't that quite different from an NDA though? With insurance, everything is documented and available for access in case you need to reference it at some later point in time. With an NDA, the settlement is effectively hidden from view and is much harder for you to legally discuss if you need to reference it at some later point. For example, if the owner decides to sell the apartment and the prospective buyer wants to know the history of any damages.
      • 542458 10y ago
        NDAs (aka confidentiality clauses) attached to settlements are extremely common - have you ever seen the phrase "settled for an undisclosed sum"? It's usually because of some sort of confidentiality clause. Here's some background on those, and why they're used: http://www.americanbar.org/publications/gp_solo/2012/november_december2012privacyandconfidentiality/confidentiality_settlement_agreements_is_virtual_necessity.html http://www.americanbar.org/publications/gp_solo/2012/novembe... Re: your house example, the NDA linked in the article don't go that far. IANAL, but it's actually pretty reasonable as far as I can tell. It basically says "I absolve AirBNB of any further responsibility, and I agree not to talk about this payout". That's it. The AirBNB rep being asleep at the wheel is a real story and pretty lousy - however the NDA feels like a non-story to me. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0k9tVdZvR1NUEtFTDZQUTQxZlk/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0k9tVdZvR1NUEtFTDZQUTQxZlk...
• jamisteven 10y ago
  there are endless stories like this with AirBNB. They are right in that they have millions of successful bookings and these one-off scenarios are the exception to the rule, but they are being very unprofessional in the way they handle these matters. I would lawyered up as soon as they started dickin me around.
  • jonny_eh 10y ago
    Apparently involving the media is cheaper and faster. Right move in this scenario.
• nodesocket 10y ago
  "They barricaded themselves inside with 14 police officers being unable to get them out until morning.” What? In America (god bless thee) police would have broken down doors and pepper sprayed those monsters, hopefully a few billy clubs to the head as well and arrested them all.
  • st3v3r 10y ago
    Only if they weren't white (See: Oregon Federal Wildlife Refuge office occupation).
• canada_dry 10y ago
  www.airbnbhell.com Lots of crazy stories! Their business model seems to rely on people willing to roll the dice on their safety and security to save (or earn) a few bucks! It will undoubtedly survive this little blip of negative publicity, but people really need to be wary of this organization's complete lack of customer service (when things go bad).
  • wingworks 10y ago
    A few years ago I was going to do exactly what the guy in the article did, was going to put my own place on Airbnb when I was away, never did in the end, but it was something I was always interested in doing, I remember reading AirBnb's host insurance policy and they seemed very fair if something bad had happened to my place, but if they don't payout, it's as good as useless. So after reading this, not a chance I'll ever list. (maybe in a few years if I hear its turned around, maybe)
• jInflux 10y ago
  I find it shocking that someone thought it was a good idea to list a flat on airbnb that they're only renting themselves. Largely in England subletting is not allowed under the terms of rental agreements.
  • yomly 10y ago
    Yep, this is every landlord's nightmare.
  • post_break 10y ago
    But doesn't Airbnb want you to do just that? Sublease even if it's against the law?
  • hn_throwaway_99 10y ago
    Yeah, that's one thing I wasn't clear on from the story, whether or not the host was violating the terms of his lease. It's not just in England. In the US, while subleasing is sometimes allowed it is almost always forbidden for short-term rentals. Many landlords now include explicit "no AirBnB renters" clauses in leases as AirBnB has become more popular.
  • srtjstjsj 10y ago
    This is AirBnB's entire business model.
  • srtjstjsj 10y ago
    This is AirBnB's entire business model.
• akeck 10y ago
  Why don't homeowner's and renter's insurance policies have short term rental exclusion clauses? This type of damage seems like a source of expensive claims.
  • alistairSH 10y ago
    I believe they do. That's why AirBnB advertises the policy mentioned in the article. The problem is AirBnB appears to make it very difficult to make a successful claim.
• tptacek 10y ago
  The irony of YC's flagship startup forcing exploding term sheets on their customers is a bit much to take. [ps] Airbnb's statement concluding this story says that this interaction fell short of their expectations. Maybe they can go a bit farther. Can they commit (just a comment here would suffice) to not using the exploding-settlement tactic with their clients? Maybe all they'd really need to say is that nobody outside their counsel's office will ever be authorized to put an explicit time limit on any offered settlement.
  • pstuart 10y ago
    YC likes rules to be broken, right?
  • 542458 10y ago
    Edit: My apologies, I misunderstood what exploding meant in this context. My bad! --- I'm not really sure the term sheet is "exploding". If I'm reading it right, it basically says "I absolve AirBNB of any further responsibility, and I agree not to talk about this payout". That's pretty common for a whole bunch of reasons [1]. [1]: http://www.americanbar.org/publications/gp_solo/2012/november_december2012privacyandconfidentiality/confidentiality_settlement_agreements_is_virtual_necessity.html http://www.americanbar.org/publications/gp_solo/2012/novembe...
    • tptacek 10y ago
      "Exploding" refers to the fact that it expired in 24 hours.
      • will_brown 10y ago
        "Exploding" the way you are referring to it really is a term related to startup funding, right? The problem is startup funding != claims/dispute resolution/litigation. In other words...exploading offers in funding don't have the same justification as deadlines to accept settlements. Moreover, settlement offers need deadlines because if they are not accepted the legal cost are exponentially increasing for both parties. For example, I might try to settle a case the night before mediation and offer settlement that expires if not taken before mediation the next day, because that mediation might add $20k to my client's bill, and so an open ended settlement would allow the opposing party to force my client to incur $20k cost and then turn around and still take the deal.
• DanBC 10y ago
  This email exchange reads like something from Black Mirror. https://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/emailexchange.pdf https://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/emailexchang... It's amazing he didn't go and firebomb AirBnB. This kind of communication would leave me incandescent with rage.
  • pbhjpbhj 10y ago
    Man, that is bad; totally agree with you DanBC. The third time the AirBnB rep asked for details of the blinds I was gob-smacked that I could have noticed it twice already on a brief scan and they apparently didn't see it - or perhaps it was just a delaying tactic to force the financial situation to become more grave for their client, like you say true Black Mirror stuff. Then at the end they try to low-ball him on what realistically was probably a tenth of what he seemed to have due (by that stage), giving him a short time-limit - what was it, 24 hours? - to click a button to accept the minimal offer or to "agree" to nothing. That sort of vile behaviour deserves a company to be sued to within a penny of it's existence IMO.
    • 19eightyfour 10y ago
      It's totally sad, but the ignoring of client responses and repeated redundant requests for information already provided, is a standard psychological domination tactic used by interrogators and ( hey, whaddaya know ) compliance people. It's meant to cause the client to become more subdued, submissive and easier to handle. I hate this kind of thing being used by a company that I wanted to respect. I truly believe: powerful people ( and companies ) empower others, they don't disempower them.
      • HillaryBriss 10y ago
        > the ignoring of client responses and repeated redundant requests for information already provided, is a standard psychological domination tactic that describes some of the managers/clients i've worked for. a very effective technique.
      • Silhouette 10y ago
• mercurialshark 10y ago
  Clickbait title. Why is this a bribe and not a settlement compensation offer? Good luck settling with your insurance company or an employer without signing an NDA and forgoing future action.
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
• mtalantikite 10y ago
  A friend of mine is having similar issues with a neighboring apartment in their building in a more suburban neighborhood of NYC. Large parties of seemingly underage kids have been renting the apartment upstairs, throwing weekend long parties, and trashing the surrounding area (using the side of the house as a bathroom, for instance). The landlord doesn't seem to care since the unit would otherwise be empty and he can make the same rent in a weekend as he would in a month. That building doesn't seem to be the only one doing the same thing in the neighborhood. I had never really thought of kids using AirBnb like that before, but it makes sense. When I was a teenager parties happened when people's parents went away for the weekend. Now an older kid can get a credit card, create a fake profile, rent an apartment for the weekend, charge a fee at the door, and have at it.
  • garethsprice 10y ago
    Assume they've tried calling the cops already? NYC's been cracking down on short-term/airbnb sublets recently so if you can twist the right arm you might be able to get something done. I recently helped a friend with a housing issue (deadbeat subtenants) and we discovered that the NYC housing court has a great service where you can talk to a housing lawyer for free, might be worth a shot to see if your friend has any legal options: https://www.nycourts.gov/courts/nyc/housing/vlpselfrep.shtml#meet https://www.nycourts.gov/courts/nyc/housing/vlpselfrep.shtml...
• yomly 10y ago
  You'd think Airbnb would be absolutely horrified of stories like this. How many hosts does this incrementally deter from using Airbnb? Additionally, their SLAs for customer support are incredibly user-hostile, bordering on actively so. Look at how Amazon can do things better - no questions asked refunds and generally 24 hour SLAs on contact. How can Airbnb fail so hard on realising that an internet business, such as theirs, lives and dies by customer trust...
  • MegaButts 10y ago
    > How can Airbnb fail so hard on realising that an internet business, such as theirs, lives and dies by customer trust... Because the founders are arrogant and it's ingrained in the company's culture. This isn't the first story of AirBnB's incompetence in handling customers and the media. http://archives.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/10/21/passive-aggressive-pro-airbnb-ads-appear-on-muni-shleters http://archives.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/10/21/passive-ag... Their official response when asked for comment goes as follows: -------------------- We emailed Airbnb spokesman Christopher Nulty to ask whether the library ad was "real." He responded by email, "as opposed to a fake one :)" A follow up email, explaining that we were in fact seeking confirmation as to whether the ads are actually from Airbnb received the following response: "Are you seriously writing on this?" -------------------- edit: What I find most amazing is that guy is still a Public Affairs Lead for the company. That says a lot about how they operate.
• whack 10y ago
  I have a friend who literally had the exact same experience a week ago. She rented her apartment to a guy for one night, and he proceeded to have a massive party filled with drugs, prostitutes, and God knows what else. Her apartment was subsequently degraded and destroyed beyond all recognition. Thus far, Airbnb's response to her has been extremely non-reassuring. Hopefully they will do more in the coming week and remedy the situation. If not, expect a longer post with pictures soon. It's stuff like this that gives Airbnb a bad name, and makes many people hesitant to ever use the service. I hope someone at Airbnb realises that pinching pennies and not helping hosts when they get screwed, is really going to hurt Airbnb itself in the long run.
  • thedarkginger 10y ago
    It's kind of crazy. People really care about their homes, right? So when bad things happen, posting photos like these confirm potential hosts' worst fears about having their place on AirBNB. I'm surprised that they don't go out of their way to help their hosts (i.e. buying things online was unfamiliar for users, so Amazon typically is pro-consumer any time there is a dispute and refunds your money immediately, in my experience).
    • cwilkes 10y ago
      Hosts worst fears? What about the neighbors of the place that is turning into a flophouse?
  • greggman 10y ago
    I hope you get restitution from AirBNB. I'd be really curious to see what if any action they take against the guests. Unless the guests somehow used fake names it seems like it would be easy for AirBnB to go after them?
  • danhodgins 10y ago
    Don't EVER rent to anyone for one night - too risky. Only rent for multiple days at a time. I haven't yet heard of any stories of people renting places out for 1 week or more where the place has been trashed. In general, partiers don't have the money to rent for > 1 night (although I would imagine there are exceptions).
• m-i-l 10y ago
  Not defending Airbnb's behaviour, but this sort of thing happens outside of Airbnb too. I had some tenants (sons of a well known rock star) cause around £10K worth of damage to my flat in Shoreditch (plus around £5K in lost rent given the amount of time it took to repair) a few years back. In that case the letting agency I used was no help because they said it was a private matter between myself and the tenants, the insurance was no good because they said that amount of damage could not be accidental and they didn't cover malicious damage, and the legal system was no help because it favours tenants. In fact I might even have been better off with Airbnb.
  • blackguardx 10y ago
    How did you resolve it? Did you just eat the loss? In the US, the best recourse would probably be to sue or file a police report for destruction of property. Neither of those are great options, but they might end up being arrested depending on the municipality.
    • xapata 10y ago
      File a police report, then go to small claims court. I think the limit for small claims is $7k, but it might be higher now.
      • pm24601 10y ago
        OP is in England. Do they have small claims courts?
        • aptwebapps 10y ago
          It would seem so: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview
    • m-i-l 10y ago
      There is a Small Claims Court in England, with a maximum claim of £10K. I got as far as issuing a Letter Before Action to the tenant's London-based guarantor (the tenant himself hadn't left a forwarding address, and his father is based in the Republic of Ireland where the Small Claims Court has a EUR2K limit), but ended up settling out of court and eating most of the loss.
• sarreph 10y ago
  > This was all too reminiscent of the NDA Tesla asked customers to sign last year after a defect was discovered, a request that was deemed “unacceptable” by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (which issued the warning about the defects). How are the biggest and trendiest companies getting away with this kind of despicable behaviour? The lack of regulation in intervention here is especially troubling.
  • HillaryBriss 10y ago
    regulation enforcement is both extremely expensive and unfashionable. we simply can't afford sufficient levels of policing. and, sometimes, elected leaders openly endorse defiance of regulations. it makes a politician look courageous and important. behavioral constraints are out. freedom is in. we just have to get used to it.
  • srtjstjsj 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil_Co._of_New_Jersey_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil_Co._of_New_Jersey... Despicable behavior is the history of business
• cosinetau 10y ago
  I'm beginning to feel that these app business are nothing more than modern get rich quick schemes, and will not stand the test of time.
• __jal 10y ago
  Hard to say what I'd do when I haven't been in that situation, but in a past dispute with a large company, I felt I had the freedom to make them pay for their desired confidentiality. (It wasn't quite like this situation, but somewhat similar.) I demanded a 60% premium over their "final" offer for the confidentiality clause. They told me to take a walk, but reversed and paid after my lawyer contacted them. (the 60% was basically pulled out of my nether bits; it was a wild guess at what they might value it at.) I'd recommend anyone in a similar situation putting a price tag on the gag clauses, if they can afford it. Aside from many other issues, it is a nasty tactic that is bad for markets, because it increases economic inefficiency by increasing information asymmetry.
  • bigbugbag 10y ago
    IMHO submitting to corporate NDA is wrong. Corporations should be exposed for their wrongdoings so other people can know about it and corporations made into changing their ways.
    • srtjstjsj 10y ago
      signing an NDA is becoming complicit in the scam, like joining an MLM scheme.
• 19eightyfour 10y ago
  Is it correct that the article asserted damages assessed at USD 8K but offered to reimburse just under USD 2K? I could be overreacting to this, but I had a really strong reaction to this article. I'll preface relating this by stating that in pretty much everything, I would usually side with the large company or startup. Just my point of view. I'm not overflowing in sympathy for people complaining about dealing with companies or large bureaucracies because in my experience that arises from people's insufficient understanding of how to operate with a company or large bureaucracy to their advantage. Most of the time I'd be like, people should learn to be smarter. With that disclaimer aside this story made me super angry. How could AirBnB treat this person like that? Clearly guests had defrauded AirBnB's system, and the host suffered. The host should be totally compensated. If this was my company, in an extreme case like this, I'd send out an AirBnB rep to do a damage assessment and collect evidence. And then, not just to be awesome, but to protect AirBnB against bad PR, and to encourage AirBnB to develop more robust guest fraud detection, I'd compensate as a policy 20 - 25 % over the amount. So this guy would get USD 10K and hands on treatment. A complication I'm not considering is -- who is owed the damages, the guest or the landlord? But the idea above would be indicative of my response, and how I think they should have done this. I super hate it to read great PR about AirBnB doing awesome things and then to see something like this. And the dereliction and indifference exhibited by the email chain...so angry. The worst thing is: you can judge a person ( and a company ) by how they treat people they don't think they need to treat well. So when AirBnB makes money out of you, and you use their shiny site, everything is grand. But when you suddenly suffer and need their help, their action falls well below their promise. Like I said, maybe I'm overreacting or not seeing this clearly. But on the face of what I saw this is how I took this. So angry!
  • jccooper 10y ago
    The fact that they're trying to chisel this customer out of a few grand suggests to me that host compensation must be a real cost center for AirBNB... which is actually worse than if it were just really bad customer service, because it means that the chances of this happening to your apartment are much higher than advertised. Neither way, of course, is a good look.
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• ouid 10y ago
  Ads injected into a slideshow. We are truly living in the future.
• rahilsondhi 10y ago
  Am I the only one disgusted by the canned replies from Airbnb to Luciano? The guy had his home ruined and all Peter from Airbnb can talk about is file format requirements. Where is the empathy?
  • dvtv75 10y ago
    Empathy may be seen as an admission of liability in certain situations, so it's best to keep it completely controlled.
  • bigbugbag 10y ago
    If it was not for Hanlon's Razor, I'd think this was deliberate and part of the process of cheating the guy out of the money he was entitled to. Though this is a repeat of history as this has happened before, for example with the guy that got bitten by a rottweiler[1]. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/11/your-money/questions-about-airbnbs-responsibility-after-vicious-attack-by-dog.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/11/your-money/questions-abou...
    • srtjstjsj 10y ago
      Of course it's deliberate. AirBnB's business model is to achieve profit margin by cheating laws and contracts, and facilitating their customers doing same.
• endgame 10y ago
  Somehow that page's autoplaying video gets around the browser's mute control. The web continues to get worse...
• phonon 10y ago
  Hmmm...actually the most clearly unethical act was not the low ball offer, the deadlines, or the non-disclosure request--it was the repeated insistence by "Peter" that "the decision reached in this case is final, and cannot be overturned" which is a blatant lie. The Airbnb Host Guarantee clearly lays out an arbitration process in case of any dispute. https://www.airbnb.com/terms/host_guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/terms/host_guarantee General. You and Airbnb agree that any dispute, claim or controversy arising out of or relating to these Airbnb Host Guarantee Terms or the breach, termination, enforcement, interpretation or validity thereof, or to the use of the Services or use of the Site or Application (collectively, “Disputes”) will be settled by binding arbitration. You acknowledge and agree that you and Airbnb are each waiving the right to a trial by jury or to participate as a plaintiff or class member in any purported class action lawsuit, class-wide arbitration, private attorney-general action, or any other representative proceeding. Further, unless both you and Airbnb otherwise agree in writing, the arbitrator may not consolidate more than one person’s claims, and may not otherwise preside over any form of any class or representative proceeding. If this specific paragraph is held unenforceable, then the entirety of this “Dispute Resolution” section will be deemed void. Except as provided in the preceding sentence, this “Dispute Resolution” section will survive any termination of these Airbnb Host Guarantee Terms. Arbitration Rules and Governing Law. This agreement to arbitrate evidences a transaction in interstate commerce, and thus the Federal Arbitration Act governs the interpretation and enforcement of this provision. The arbitration will be administered by the American Arbitration Association (“AAA”) in accordance with the Consumer Arbitration Rules (the “AAA Rules”) then in effect, except as modified by this “Dispute Resolution” section. (The AAA Rules are available at http://www.adr.org http://www.adr.org or by calling the AAA at +1 800 778 7879.) The Federal Arbitration Act will govern the interpretation and enforcement of this Section. Arbitration Process. A party who desires to initiate arbitration must provide the other party with a written Demand for Arbitration as specified in the AAA Rules. (The AAA provides a form Demand for Arbitration. https://www.adr.org/cs/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dDocName=ADRSTAGE2034889&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased https://www.adr.org/cs/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dDocName=A... ) The arbitrator will be either a retired judge or an attorney licensed to practice law in the state of California and will be selected by the parties from the AAA’s roster of consumer dispute arbitrators. If the parties are unable to agree upon an arbitrator within seven (7) days of delivery of the Demand for Arbitration, then the AAA will appoint the arbitrator in accordance with the AAA Rules. Arbitration Location and Procedure. Unless you and Airbnb otherwise agree, the arbitration will be conducted in the county where you reside. If your claim does not exceed $10,000, then the arbitration will be conducted solely on the basis of documents you and Airbnb submit to the arbitrator, unless you request a hearing or the arbitrator determines that a hearing is necessary. If your claim exceeds $10,000, your right to a hearing will be determined by the AAA Rules. Subject to the AAA Rules, the arbitrator will have the discretion to direct a reasonable exchange of information by the parties, consistent with the expedited nature of the arbitration. Arbitrator’s Decision. The arbitrator will render an award within the time frame specified in the AAA Rules. The arbitrator’s decision will include the essential findings and conclusions upon which the arbitrator based the award. Judgment on the arbitration award may be entered in any court having jurisdiction thereof. The arbitrator’s award damages must be consistent with the terms of the “Disclaimers and Limitations of Liability” section above as to the types and the amounts of damages for which a party may be held liable. The arbitrator may award declaratory or injunctive relief only in favor of the claimant and only to the extent necessary to provide relief warranted by the claimant’s individual claim. If you prevail in arbitration you will be entitled to an award of attorneys’ fees and expenses, to the extent provided under applicable law. Airbnb will not seek, and hereby waives all rights it may have under applicable law to recover, attorneys’ fees and expenses if it prevails in arbitration. Arbitration Fees. Your responsibility to pay any AAA filing, administrative and arbitrator fees will be solely as set forth in the AAA Rules. However, if your claim for damages does not exceed $75,000, Airbnb will pay all such fees unless the arbitrator finds that either the substance of your claim or the relief sought in your Demand for Arbitration was frivolous or was brought for an improper purpose (as measured by the standards set forth in Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11(b)).
• stordoff 10y ago
  Unless I've overlooked something, the NDA seems to work largely against Airbnb. It limits their liability to this payment, and compels the host to provide "reasonable cooperation", but on confidentiality it only states: > I acknowledge that the existence of the payment by Airbnb and this Airbnb Payment Agreement are confidential. There seems to be nothing stopping the host from continuing to assert "Airbnb customers wrecked my flat; Airbnb provided terrible support and miscalculated damages".
• beart 10y ago
  I'm surprised they were able to lock themselves inside and party even with the police trying to get them out. I feel like that wouldn't be possible in the U.S.
• nether 10y ago
  I wonder if there are instances where people signed the NDA and took the money, that we have not heard about.
• jamesgaston 10y ago
  I don't see the appeal of airb&b. I don't want strangers in my home when i am not there to monitor my stuff. That's crazy. And i keep horror stories like this, just read one about a trashed apt in toronto. And i travel a lot and when i do i go through established agencies for rentals. I'm in Bali now, got a great house for a good price through traipadvisor.
• y3sh 10y ago
  Moral of the story is "go to the press"
• chris123 10y ago
  We stopped using Airbnb years ago after a very-scary-guest incident.
• pasbesoin 10y ago
  You are scum, Airbnb. I don't care that you are a YC company. You profit by making and end-run around decades of law and regulation -- much in place for a purpose and to make the lives of long-term tenants and owners tolerable and predictable. It sounds as if you've now also gone full-on into the typical modern corporate "customer support" model. Everything driven by lawyers and "risk minimization." Purposeful process dysfunction to discourage and kill as many claims and as much financial demand as possible. Support staff who know nothing of the circumstances and who furthermore refuse to inform themselves as to same. Escalating pressure to accept low-ball settlements with included gag-provisions, when the more persistent claimants don't simply give up. Real, effective response and recompense dependent upon the level of "bad PR" and perceived need for "damage control." I hope you have your Uber moment -- soon.