7 ms·

Tesla Model 3 Ramp Up Aims to Compete with BMW 3 and Mercedes C

45 points by devy 10y ago

Neliquat 10y ago
Not hard. The iSeries is an unmitigated clusterfsck. I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else, but I am glad to see the tech advance. I continue to have doubts that the model 3 will be the electric peoples car however.
- TehCorwiz 10y ago
  Where I live I have the option of 100% community solar, or 100% wind (wind via credit transfer). For me, moving to an all electric vehicle would be a pure carbon reduction.
  - jonknee 10y ago
    And even in areas where this is not the case today, it could be in the future (coal plants are shutting down all the time). There is no chance an IC vehicle can become clean in the future.
    - Noughmad 10y ago
      While I agree with the sentiment, IC vehicles have been getting cleaner for some time, and likely will continue in the future. They will never be completely clean, though.
      - jonknee 10y ago
        I meant there is no chance your existing IC vehicle will get cleaner. If you buy a EV and your local coal power plant gets replaced with a natural gas fired plant, your car suddenly got cleaner.
  - rhino369 10y ago
    I don't think purchasing Renewable Energy Credits really means you'd see a pure carbon reduction. Some (most?) of that wind power was going to be produced anyway. Buying their credits is just a subsidy. Though economics isn't my forte.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  > I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else In a way it is, but that's the point. Even with fossil fuels, centralized energy production is much more efficient than every car having its own combustion engine, and then electricity is also flexible enough to enable you to switch to green/renewable sources without change for the car and its supporting infrastructure. In a way, electricity is energy abstracted away from the means of its production.
  - mi100hael 10y ago
    That's a really good perspective that I hadn't really considered before.
  - oblio 10y ago
    I used to think that way, too. And then I remembered that the cheapest form of power generation is using coal, which is extremely abundant. I also remembered that power plants have an expected life span of 50+ years and people are against closing down things which are have already sunk their original cost and now are cheap, effective and provide lots of jobs. It's really hard to say which is the lesser of two evils.
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      Getting rid of the coal plants is mostly a separate battle, though. I admit I'm not sure how centralized coal burning compares in emission efficiency to internal combustion engines in cars.
    - ska 10y ago
      And then I remembered that the cheapest form of power generation is using coal, which is extremely abundant. That's not so clear cut when you try and factor in externalized costs (which any proper analysis must)
    - knz 10y ago
      > I also remembered that power plants have an expected life span of 50+ years How much of that infrastructure was built in the post WW2 period so is nearing replacement anyway?
- make3 10y ago
  you may want to read this : http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green in most cases, turns out electricity is generated in a way that's much more carbon efficient than using gasoline. Electricity from natural gas, for example, has a much better carbon footprint compared to oil. petroleum parity is really the worst case.
- xutopia 10y ago
  In Quebec we sell electricity to the US for cheap and it's dam water powering turbines that generates it all.
- Noughmad 10y ago
  In the US, about 2/3 of electricity produced is from fossil fuels. In the EU, this number is about about half, and in Slovenia it's lower than 25%. So with all else being equal, you reduce pollution by somewhere between one third and three quarters. With that out of the way, even just pushing the pollution and noise somewhere else is a big deal, especially in cities. It doesn't matter for global warming, but for quality of life it's much better if fuel burning is happening away from people.
  - deelowe 10y ago
    Agreed. Also, a lot of those fossil fuels are now natural gas, which is much less polluting than gasoline. Also, centralizing power generation means it will be much easier to regulate moving forward (power companies are already heavily regulated, so they are accustom to dealing with federal and state initiatives to reduce pollution, cost, etc...)
- vernie 10y ago
  What's a clusterfsck
  - pc86 10y ago
    Thank you. If you want to curse, just curse. I've seen "fuck" on HN dozens of times, and worse too. If you've got some hang up about maintaining the pseudo-professional/intellectual air of HN, just use a different word/phrase altogether.
  - tedunangst 10y ago
    It's when you check the whole cloud filesystem all at once. Not sure how it relates to tesla. Maybe the machine learning autopilot?
- aidos 10y ago
  I have a diesel that's in at the mechanic at the moment because it's blowing plumes of blueish smoke every now and again. 4 different mechanics have all had different theories (ECG valve, turbo, air supply system, injectors) so as a result I've had to learn a lot about it myself because I no longer trust any of them. Currently I'm starting to think the issue is with the DPF (diesel particulate filter) system which is responsible for pulling the soot out of the exhaust. The extra soot is the result of reburning the exhaust in a 2nd combustion to try to keep the emissions down. There's then another process (DPF regeneration) that pumps extra diesel into the engine during the exhaust stroke to try to burn the carbon particles out of the DPF to keep it clean. Stopping to think about the horrors of the filthy process that goes on inside all of these vehicles is eye opening, to say the least. I know electric vehicles aren't without an environmental cost — but if there's anything that can be done to move the pollution away from urban environments that seems like a pretty positive thing to me. I suspect in 50 years time people are going to look back on the burning of fossil fuels with shock.
- SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
  > I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else Ah, the good old "long tailpipe" fallacy occurs again to someone. I'll link it this time: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-plot-to-kill-the-green-machine-480645.html http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-plot-to-kill-th... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe#Criticism https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13938279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13938279
hkmurakami 10y ago
For reference, BMW 3 and 4 series sales in the US has been in the range of 100,000-150,000 units/year http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4-series/ http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4...
- tedmiston 10y ago
  There are also tons of used 3 series on the market though.
pasta 10y ago
Then I think they should also ramp up build quality because that doesn't match BMW or Mercedes at all.
- vesrah 10y ago
  At least someone else said it first.
- mi100hael 10y ago
  RTFA > Tesla also gets to pick from the best, most reliable suppliers. When the carmaker first built the Model S, suppliers assumed it would never sell more than 3,000 units and the company would eventually go bankrupt, according to Musk. That’s changed. It “went from basically getting like the worst team on second-tier suppliers to getting the best team on first tier suppliers,” he said in February. “Really big difference.”
  - jonknee 10y ago
    If that's the case they need to do a major overhaul of the Model S...
  - sspyder 10y ago
    CEO of company in question claims that now they get the bet teams from best suppliers... That have already been working with their competitors for years. RTFA won't help you consider sources and how much salt to ingest with their words.
  - GVIrish 10y ago
    Getting parts from the best suppliers does not by itself ensure quality. What kind of tolerances are you speccing from said suppliers? How tight are your build processes and quality assurance testing? How accurate and precise is your tooling?
- MBCook 10y ago
  That's a lot more excusable when your car is priced at 35k than 75k.
sixdimensional 10y ago
If electric really displaces gasoline/petrol, we are going to need a lot more charging stations. I work at a company that had a larger installation of charging stations (relative to my locality) and the Tesla takes a long time to charge; i.e. there are almost never enough charging stations. And there aren't enough supercharging/fast charging stations. Not to mention the fact that electricity gets surprisingly expensive at peak rates. I recognize we are doing this to try to reduce carbon emissions, but I find it important to remember that energy is neither created nor destroyed according to the laws of thermodynamics. So, we are only transitioning from one form of energy to another, which has its own pros and cons. Of course, electric "seems" to have more pros then cons, but it definitely still has cons (heat generation, lithium/battery tech byproducts/electricity generation byproducts, etc.), and no energy source is really ever "free". Disclaimer: I don't have a Tesla but do drive a plug-in hybrid. It feels like a nice balance of gas/electric at the current time.
- vvanders 10y ago
  Unless you're driving more than 200mi you should be charging at home. Both for off-peak rates and because at < 10kW it does take a long time to charge.
  - glogla 10y ago
    If you live in suburb. If you live in an apartment and park on the street, no charging for you.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      Many apartments are installing chargers in their parking areas now. The numbers are small, but it's just getting started. There's no reason you can't have chargers available for street parking too. It's not common yet, but it's just a matter of demand.
      - greglindahl 10y ago
        Palo Alto has more than the average number of EVs, and has chargers at offices, public parking garages, some apartment building parking garages, and even a couple of street chargers. New construction is required to install a few chargers and a lot of conduit for future chargers.
dstaley 10y ago
I think it's great that Tesla is attacking the market top down, but I'm honestly more excited for the Toyota Camry of electric vehicles. The total cost of ownership of a $35k Model 3 is probably lower than the TCO for a $23k Camry, but until electric vehicles are positioned as alternatives to affordable gas vehicles, I don't see EVs getting that much market penetration.
- pc86 10y ago
  I desperately want a Tesla, but we don't have a garage and I'm not having a charging station installed on a public sidewalk. Short of eating lunch exclusively next to gas stations with a charging station, or having something installed on the exterior of my home and running an extension cable into the street, I'm not sure I have any viable options.
holydude 10y ago
For those blabbering about build quality. Well compromises. I cant stand the shitty infotainment systems in any car be it cheap kia or high end bmw. All of them suck and are ridiculous because they are made by conservative people that do not understand consumers. Software is the new king and this is where america has such an incredible advantage compared to traditional european manufacturers that it is almost unbelievable. Interior and the choice of materials can be changed and improved but building a good sw experience and ecosystem is so incredibly hard even for IT companies (Samsung for example) that people are afraid of any incestments.We are in an era where a lot of people simply can ignore some squeaky dashboards but buying a platform for convenient data consumption will be a deciding factor for many future customers.
Aron 10y ago
Tesla doesn't need to compete with either of them. They just want to sell more cars. Any of a number of ways to do that.

45 points by devy 10y ago

Not hard. The iSeries is an unmitigated clusterfsck. I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else, but I am glad to see the tech advance. I continue to have doubts that the model 3 will be the electric peoples car however.

TehCorwiz 10y ago
Where I live I have the option of 100% community solar, or 100% wind (wind via credit transfer). For me, moving to an all electric vehicle would be a pure carbon reduction.
- jonknee 10y ago
  And even in areas where this is not the case today, it could be in the future (coal plants are shutting down all the time). There is no chance an IC vehicle can become clean in the future.
  - Noughmad 10y ago
    While I agree with the sentiment, IC vehicles have been getting cleaner for some time, and likely will continue in the future. They will never be completely clean, though.
    - jonknee 10y ago
      I meant there is no chance your existing IC vehicle will get cleaner. If you buy a EV and your local coal power plant gets replaced with a natural gas fired plant, your car suddenly got cleaner.
- rhino369 10y ago
  I don't think purchasing Renewable Energy Credits really means you'd see a pure carbon reduction. Some (most?) of that wind power was going to be produced anyway. Buying their credits is just a subsidy. Though economics isn't my forte.
TeMPOraL 10y ago
> I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else In a way it is, but that's the point. Even with fossil fuels, centralized energy production is much more efficient than every car having its own combustion engine, and then electricity is also flexible enough to enable you to switch to green/renewable sources without change for the car and its supporting infrastructure. In a way, electricity is energy abstracted away from the means of its production.
- mi100hael 10y ago
  That's a really good perspective that I hadn't really considered before.
- oblio 10y ago
  I used to think that way, too. And then I remembered that the cheapest form of power generation is using coal, which is extremely abundant. I also remembered that power plants have an expected life span of 50+ years and people are against closing down things which are have already sunk their original cost and now are cheap, effective and provide lots of jobs. It's really hard to say which is the lesser of two evils.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Getting rid of the coal plants is mostly a separate battle, though. I admit I'm not sure how centralized coal burning compares in emission efficiency to internal combustion engines in cars.
  - ska 10y ago
    And then I remembered that the cheapest form of power generation is using coal, which is extremely abundant. That's not so clear cut when you try and factor in externalized costs (which any proper analysis must)
  - knz 10y ago
    > I also remembered that power plants have an expected life span of 50+ years How much of that infrastructure was built in the post WW2 period so is nearing replacement anyway?
make3 10y ago
you may want to read this : http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green in most cases, turns out electricity is generated in a way that's much more carbon efficient than using gasoline. Electricity from natural gas, for example, has a much better carbon footprint compared to oil. petroleum parity is really the worst case.
xutopia 10y ago
In Quebec we sell electricity to the US for cheap and it's dam water powering turbines that generates it all.
Noughmad 10y ago
In the US, about 2/3 of electricity produced is from fossil fuels. In the EU, this number is about about half, and in Slovenia it's lower than 25%. So with all else being equal, you reduce pollution by somewhere between one third and three quarters. With that out of the way, even just pushing the pollution and noise somewhere else is a big deal, especially in cities. It doesn't matter for global warming, but for quality of life it's much better if fuel burning is happening away from people.
- deelowe 10y ago
  Agreed. Also, a lot of those fossil fuels are now natural gas, which is much less polluting than gasoline. Also, centralizing power generation means it will be much easier to regulate moving forward (power companies are already heavily regulated, so they are accustom to dealing with federal and state initiatives to reduce pollution, cost, etc...)
vernie 10y ago
What's a clusterfsck
- pc86 10y ago
  Thank you. If you want to curse, just curse. I've seen "fuck" on HN dozens of times, and worse too. If you've got some hang up about maintaining the pseudo-professional/intellectual air of HN, just use a different word/phrase altogether.
- tedunangst 10y ago
  It's when you check the whole cloud filesystem all at once. Not sure how it relates to tesla. Maybe the machine learning autopilot?
aidos 10y ago
I have a diesel that's in at the mechanic at the moment because it's blowing plumes of blueish smoke every now and again. 4 different mechanics have all had different theories (ECG valve, turbo, air supply system, injectors) so as a result I've had to learn a lot about it myself because I no longer trust any of them. Currently I'm starting to think the issue is with the DPF (diesel particulate filter) system which is responsible for pulling the soot out of the exhaust. The extra soot is the result of reburning the exhaust in a 2nd combustion to try to keep the emissions down. There's then another process (DPF regeneration) that pumps extra diesel into the engine during the exhaust stroke to try to burn the carbon particles out of the DPF to keep it clean. Stopping to think about the horrors of the filthy process that goes on inside all of these vehicles is eye opening, to say the least. I know electric vehicles aren't without an environmental cost — but if there's anything that can be done to move the pollution away from urban environments that seems like a pretty positive thing to me. I suspect in 50 years time people are going to look back on the burning of fossil fuels with shock.
SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
> I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else Ah, the good old "long tailpipe" fallacy occurs again to someone. I'll link it this time: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-plot-to-kill-the-green-machine-480645.html http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-plot-to-kill-th... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe#Criticism https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13938279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13938279

hkmurakami 10y ago

For reference, BMW 3 and 4 series sales in the US has been in the range of 100,000-150,000 units/year http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4-series/ http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4...

tedmiston 10y ago
There are also tons of used 3 series on the market though.

pasta 10y ago

Then I think they should also ramp up build quality because that doesn't match BMW or Mercedes at all.

vesrah 10y ago
At least someone else said it first.
mi100hael 10y ago
RTFA > Tesla also gets to pick from the best, most reliable suppliers. When the carmaker first built the Model S, suppliers assumed it would never sell more than 3,000 units and the company would eventually go bankrupt, according to Musk. That’s changed. It “went from basically getting like the worst team on second-tier suppliers to getting the best team on first tier suppliers,” he said in February. “Really big difference.”
- jonknee 10y ago
  If that's the case they need to do a major overhaul of the Model S...
- sspyder 10y ago
  CEO of company in question claims that now they get the bet teams from best suppliers... That have already been working with their competitors for years. RTFA won't help you consider sources and how much salt to ingest with their words.
- GVIrish 10y ago
  Getting parts from the best suppliers does not by itself ensure quality. What kind of tolerances are you speccing from said suppliers? How tight are your build processes and quality assurance testing? How accurate and precise is your tooling?
MBCook 10y ago
That's a lot more excusable when your car is priced at 35k than 75k.

sixdimensional 10y ago

If electric really displaces gasoline/petrol, we are going to need a lot more charging stations. I work at a company that had a larger installation of charging stations (relative to my locality) and the Tesla takes a long time to charge; i.e. there are almost never enough charging stations. And there aren't enough supercharging/fast charging stations. Not to mention the fact that electricity gets surprisingly expensive at peak rates. I recognize we are doing this to try to reduce carbon emissions, but I find it important to remember that energy is neither created nor destroyed according to the laws of thermodynamics. So, we are only transitioning from one form of energy to another, which has its own pros and cons. Of course, electric "seems" to have more pros then cons, but it definitely still has cons (heat generation, lithium/battery tech byproducts/electricity generation byproducts, etc.), and no energy source is really ever "free". Disclaimer: I don't have a Tesla but do drive a plug-in hybrid. It feels like a nice balance of gas/electric at the current time.

vvanders 10y ago
Unless you're driving more than 200mi you should be charging at home. Both for off-peak rates and because at < 10kW it does take a long time to charge.
- glogla 10y ago
  If you live in suburb. If you live in an apartment and park on the street, no charging for you.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Many apartments are installing chargers in their parking areas now. The numbers are small, but it's just getting started. There's no reason you can't have chargers available for street parking too. It's not common yet, but it's just a matter of demand.
    - greglindahl 10y ago
      Palo Alto has more than the average number of EVs, and has chargers at offices, public parking garages, some apartment building parking garages, and even a couple of street chargers. New construction is required to install a few chargers and a lot of conduit for future chargers.

dstaley 10y ago

I think it's great that Tesla is attacking the market top down, but I'm honestly more excited for the Toyota Camry of electric vehicles. The total cost of ownership of a $35k Model 3 is probably lower than the TCO for a $23k Camry, but until electric vehicles are positioned as alternatives to affordable gas vehicles, I don't see EVs getting that much market penetration.

pc86 10y ago
I desperately want a Tesla, but we don't have a garage and I'm not having a charging station installed on a public sidewalk. Short of eating lunch exclusively next to gas stations with a charging station, or having something installed on the exterior of my home and running an extension cable into the street, I'm not sure I have any viable options.

holydude 10y ago

For those blabbering about build quality. Well compromises. I cant stand the shitty infotainment systems in any car be it cheap kia or high end bmw. All of them suck and are ridiculous because they are made by conservative people that do not understand consumers. Software is the new king and this is where america has such an incredible advantage compared to traditional european manufacturers that it is almost unbelievable. Interior and the choice of materials can be changed and improved but building a good sw experience and ecosystem is so incredibly hard even for IT companies (Samsung for example) that people are afraid of any incestments.We are in an era where a lot of people simply can ignore some squeaky dashboards but buying a platform for convenient data consumption will be a deciding factor for many future customers.

Aron 10y ago

Tesla doesn't need to compete with either of them. They just want to sell more cars. Any of a number of ways to do that.