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Loopy: a tool for thinking in systems
- rrherr 10y agoThis is what I'm most excited about: "LOOPY lets you have a conversation with simulations! You can go from thinking in systems, to talking in systems." Thread: https://twitter.com/worrydream/status/808399253928218624 https://twitter.com/worrydream/status/808399253928218624
- digi_owl 10y agoNifty. At a basic level, if applied to economic thinking, we get what preofessor Steve Keen has been working on with his Minsky software. http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/minsky/ http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/minsky/
- themodelplumber 10y agoI played with the anxiety & depression example, but I didn't get it. Specifically, I don't understand how "doing things" leads to "feeling good" which leads to "depression".
- TeMPOraL 10y agoDoing things has a positive (+) impact on feeling good, which has a negative (-) impact on depression. The sign there is important.
- ianai 10y agoDoing things only has a positive impact if the outcome is at least positive.
- joshkpeterson 10y agoThis is one of the problems with applying cybernetics to human behavior like you would with psychology. It's not really the right tool for the job, nor is it meant to be - it's about describing and understanding systems.
- geofft 10y agoEvery minus sign inverts the direction of the change. Every plus sign leaves the direction of the change as it is. More doing things leads (+) to more feeling good, which leads (-) to less depression, which leads (-) to less de-motivation. But more de-motivation leads (+) to more depression, which leads (-) to less feeling good, which leads (-) to more depression.
- QuantumGravy 10y agoA fair number of systems created here haven't grokked the behavior of (-), leading to models that don't actually behave as intended. I admit, it took me a few tries to notice, myself. The description given for relationships doesn't help, suggesting that (-) does nothing more than changing 🡩 to 🡫. Having three options, more (🡩), less (🡫), and flip (↕) would have been clearer and more versatile.
- rbalsdon 10y agoI can't find a good solution for the problem and that's a bit depressing... This feels a bit more accurate to me though: http://bit.ly/2nsIOXc http://bit.ly/2nsIOXc
- TeMPOraL 10y agoBeautiful and nice to use. After playing with the anxiety & depression model for a while, here's a thought: let me bring up magnitude/time plots for each of those circles. Density of arrows flying around the graph is not very readable. Adding proper plots (maybe hidden by default) could boost the exploratory capabilities of the tool without diminishing its ease of use.
- makmanalp 10y agoThis is awesome. It reminds me of stuff I learned in a class called system dynamics ages ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_dynamics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_dynamics
- ianai 10y agoI wish this had been around years ago.
- qznc 10y agoLooping with PhDs: http://bit.ly/2nVyhBX http://bit.ly/2nVyhBX
- mcdonji 10y agoThis is a brilliant idea. I really like the idea of bringing modelling into everyday thinking. I do not understand the idea of hiding the hard stuff. Why can't I have access to and change the code underlying the model too? Rich Hickey talked about code as a violin for the master or a one button instrument for the beginner. Perhaps we could have both?
- simulate 10y agoThe technique used in LOOPY comes from system dynamics and is called causal-loop diagramming. Causal loop diagramming is a way to visually explore connections. You can rigorously model systems using a stock-flow metaphor using desktop mathematical simulation tools like Vensim, Stella Pro, and Powersim. The system dynamics society has more information at: http://www.systemdynamics.org/what-is-s/ http://www.systemdynamics.org/what-is-s/
- zitterbewegung 10y agoIf I am going to model systems that are finite state transducers instead of making me draw a circle why not have a click create the state and drag from one state to another to have an output. When I am modeling a system its helpful to see what an increase or a decrease will propagate to the system but what is actually useful is some kind of chart that tells me cumulative results and also another chart possibly what is happening at this given second. On your landing page your copy seems off. The first sentence implies that the system may or may not help. I see this as an interesting toy but I don't see how this would be useful for modeling systems.
- javajosh 10y agoSometimes I wish engineers in general would pay more attention to their "energy", and not the kind measured as the square of momentum but rather of the emotional kind. Is it really too much to ask that, in addition to requiring accuracy and precision, that you take time to consider the wisdom of your actions? I don't think so. If there is no joy in what you are saying (and I don't mean the joy of pointing out someone else's mistakes), why are you saying it? Your comment is swimming in bad energy, but also in a kind of willful ignorance. What kind of ignorance? Of two kinds: first, you seemed to have missed the point of this project. It's goal is NOT to give you a way to model finite state transducers. It's goal is fundamentally pedagogical, and to give a wide-range of humans some experience with feedback loops, self-reinforcing behavior. This phenomena is abstract, and not widely appreciated. Second, you have misinterpreted the word "system" to mean "the specific production systems I am engineering right now", when in fact it was clearly meant more generally, as the demo systems show. The damage you do with this sort of comment can be substantial. It is not easy to envision a thing and then make it and share it with the world, not least in part because bad energy comments, willfully ignorant and harsh, leave a mark. Creation is an act of vulnerability, and creators deserve our respect and all the positive energy we can muster.
- organian 10y agoA little nitpick - energy is not momentum squared: Momentum = mv and kinetic energy = 1/2 mv^2 So energy is proportional to mv^2 rather than (mv)^2
- kaycebasques 10y ago"Thinking In Systems: A Primer" was a wonderful introduction to the topic. https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557 https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp...
- LaundroMat 10y agoYes, it's one of those very rare books that really made me think differently about things.
- andrewflnr 10y agoHow much info does it give about how to practically predict and modify the behavior of realistic, complex systems? If I already understand that feedback cycles are important and hard to predict, how much would I benefit from this book?
- pmarreck 10y agoMy favorite kind of book is one that changes how you think about and see things, and this is one of those special books
- spodek 10y agoSome relevant videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdzKBWDraM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdzKBWDraM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMmChiLZZHg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMmChiLZZHg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QtQqZ6Q5-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QtQqZ6Q5-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYNlhjOZ7DU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYNlhjOZ7DU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc3SWj-hjTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc3SWj-hjTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz9wjJjmkmc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz9wjJjmkmc (the later ones are about Limits to Growth, co-written by the author of Thinking in Systems)
- vpribish 10y agoI found a solution to the 3rd example problem on Automation and Unemployment : http://bit.ly/2nbHqX3 http://bit.ly/2nbHqX3
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- callmeed 10y agoMuch easier to manage than UBI. I see a bright future ahead.
- vijucat 10y agoED-209 wants to have a word with Robocop + I decreased frustration and societal unrest by massively funding Entertainment: http://bit.ly/2mwwO7T http://bit.ly/2mwwO7T Basically, "Running Man" was entertainment / fiction when I read it as a kid, and it will be a documentary by the time I'm dead.
- vpribish 10y agoI love it! Now if we can put everyone to work as extras in all that entertainment... Clearly we need to encourage automation in the real economy and ban it in entertainment. This tool does what it says: the conversation goes up a notch because the feedback effects are part of the shared context so you don't get distracted talking about them one-by-one to the exclusion of the systemic effects. amazing how easy it was to make unstable/chaotic systems, Robocop will be busy
- smlacy 10y agoJust adding one more link with a negative relationship between Political Unrest and Profits makes this much more interesting! https://goo.gl/lL7EvY https://goo.gl/lL7EvY
- Geee 10y agoTo be realistic, more automation does not lead to "more profit", because of competition. But, this is really great tool to actually visualize these arguments.
- bbctol 10y agoI like the idea behind this, and I appreciate that it makes a complicated concept dirt-simple to use, but I think it's a little too simple. You can't diagram anything but a closed system, and most things are better modeled as open ones; the one addition of constant-up or constant-down nodes would make this much more useful.
- hwayne 10y agoYou can make a node that feeds into itself, which is an okay substitute for an open system: http://bit.ly/2mwSlgX http://bit.ly/2mwSlgX
- rickmellor 10y agoNeeds conditionals. Great concept though.
- llamataboot 10y agoThis is great! I did quite a bit of work in system dynamics during my masters in social work -- one thing that has been missing from the world of computer simulation has been good open source tools and also tools that can start taking causal loop diagrams and turning them into simulations that can be played with. Excited to check this out, bravo to the dev. I think that "systems literacy" is the literacy of the 21st century, and understanding feedback loops is a key part of that literacy (rather than just thinking in terms of linear cause and effect)
- 2_listerine_pls 10y agowhat is being used to make animations? webgl?
- detal 10y agoIt looks like it's based on a custom canvas implementation. The code is actually very written when you start poking around in the source.
- dkural 10y agoThis needs more work on the math side to be helpful. As it points out itself, the ecological example does not (in substance) correspond to the Lotka Volterra model. Furthermore, there is no way for a species to go extinct from what I saw initially (perhaps there are options I'm missing?) A lot of system-relationships are non-linear, or fractal, with time-ranges that are out of sync. Would be great to be able to model that -- i.e. introduce different "speeds" on how fast arrows can "travel" on the line, and to introduce functions that describe how x input arrows results in y output arrows, etc. It'd be great to be able to model how when a food source (or any input disappears), the burden shifts to the other sources etc -- now the arrows just go equally, sources/sinks can't disappear etc.
- andrewflnr 10y agoYeah, I added another predator species, and I'm pretty sure the escalating cycles of feast and famine should have led to ecological collapse.
- leethargo 10y agoI think you can just draw longer arrows to reduce the speed. Or draw multiple to increase the factor.
- potench 10y agoThis is awesome. I did a quick demo system to map Performance and UX to App Experience http://bit.ly/2nVWbNE http://bit.ly/2nVWbNE My demo isn't great but this Loopy tool already has me thinking about the problem in a different way and attempting to map positive/negative inputs to a result in an interactive and shareable way.
- pmarreck 10y agoI can't seem to scroll down to see your whole model on my particular laptop screen, is this a bug on the loopy site?
- joshschreuder 10y agoSame here, but you can zoom out with the browser and see the whole thing. OP is probably on a higher res monitor.
- gbajson 10y agoArrows travel with the same speed (pixels/s). So the shorter arrow, the stronger relation. http://bit.ly/2mYqGle http://bit.ly/2mYqGle
- diggan 10y agoYou can also add multiple arrows right next to each other to make a stronger relation. If arrow is double the length but twice, it should be the same as if it's 1x length and just one arrow.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 10y agoThis is a neat idea. I'd rather learn from simulation than, what is sometimes called, hard experience. Is "systems" the academic field that studies real systems by simulating them? Did UML come from this field. Do you know how UML is regarded nowadays?
- rytilu 10y agoIn some of the models people are posting, nodes were out of my window-view and I couldn't move over to them. Is this a bug or am I missing a scroll/zoom feature?
- prodikl 10y agoi think its missing pan / zoom. i had to move a chart from my laptop window to my big monitor window to view it all
- joshschreuder 10y agoYou can zoom with the browser to see bigger models.
- redsummer 10y agoWould be interesting to see the 'systems' for various start-ups. And compare those that were successful with those that were not.
- rymohr 10y agoFor anyone interested in applying this stuff to real world issues, I highly recommend the +Acumen Systems Practice course [1]. Rob Ricigliano and Karen Grattan have put together a solid, pragmatic guide on how to understand, analyze, and engage complex systems. We've been working with Rob and Karen at Kumu [2] for years now and nobody else comes close when it comes to applied systems thinking. [1]: http://plusacumen.org/courses/systems-practice/ http://plusacumen.org/courses/systems-practice/ [2]: https://kumu.io https://kumu.io
- wespisea 10y agoWhat about the Coursera Process Mining class? I thought that was very similar, in concept, to this...
- rlglwx 10y agoPolitics and outside money: http://bit.ly/2mVfyod http://bit.ly/2mVfyod Bipartisanship's effect on political power:http://bit.ly/2o9QieQ http://bit.ly/2o9QieQ
- throwaway729 10y ago> Bipartisanship's effect on political power What's your thinking here? R and D are (presumably) zero-sum. Either with each other or with some 3rd/nth party. But there's a steady state in this system where R=D=0. Or are you modeling something other than actual seats held I guess? I mean right now both R and D are extremely unpopular, probably in large part because of lack of bipartisanship (at least doesn't help). But R still hold a crap load of power.
- rlglwx 10y agoYeah, I guess my point was if you have bipartisanship it gives power to all factions. I thought it was a nice counterpoint to the system I shared with power swinging back and forth. No deep thought went into this.
- throwaway729 10y agoMakes sense :)
- sixo 10y agoEngaging with depression and anxiety as network effects rather than latent causes seems, anecdotally, to be productive. In my experience, the very networkiness of these things makes them hard to contend with emotionally, but treating the networkiness as a the culprit itself rather than a nearly-insurmountable barrier to contending with some real culprit has been promising. Scott Alexander on this way of modeling mental disorder here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/12/14/ssc-journal-club-mental-disorders-as-networks/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/12/14/ssc-journal-club-menta...
- digikata 10y agoLove how the pencil/mouse gestures translate to adding nodes and links! That feature alone, even separate from the simulation aspect, makes me want a diagramming tool that does that for a wide range of symbols.
- bdwdbv 10y agoI'm sure I've used such systems in the past...I think even Flash used to have a similar feature. Anyway I love it too because it feels way faster than drag&drop.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- amelius 10y agoCan someone draw a schematic for simulating Universal Basic Income?
- orsenthil 10y agoCan someone educate me "What thinking in systems" mean?
- pmarreck 10y agohttps://smile.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557?sa-no-redirect=1 https://smile.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/... is a great introduction and a relatively quick read http://www.systemdynamics.org/what-is-s/ http://www.systemdynamics.org/what-is-s/ Basically, a while back, some people realized that all systems (which comprises just about everything, basically) share similar modelable attributes.
- a_c 10y agoJust found out that ncase.me has a lot of gems http://ncase.me/polygons/ http://ncase.me/polygons/ and http://blog.ncase.me/we-become-what-we-behold-a-post-mortem/ http://blog.ncase.me/we-become-what-we-behold-a-post-mortem/ are inspiring.
- zilian 10y agoWho can solve the ticket horror show ? http://bit.ly/2n0OF3f http://bit.ly/2n0OF3f
- schemathings 10y agoWould it be possible (useful?) to add a counter in each node to see the cumulative effect? I know that would be a slippery slope because ideally you'd need units and perhaps rate vs counter/gauge but it seems even a naive implementation of times fired would be instructive. I suppose since it's a graphical system the circles could expand/contract instead/as well.