4 ms·

I like programming a lot, and am pretty good at it. What I dislike is the fact that it feels very tough to break into demanding programming jobs without Ivy Le

I like programming a lot, and am pretty good at it. What I dislike is the fact that it feels very tough to break into demanding programming jobs without Ivy League credentials. I certainly have the experience, and I've done some badass stuff, but, yeah. Any advice is welcome. I am 35 and trying to work to avoid being dead-ended as a replaceable dev. Really interested in PL implementations and empowering devs to do more.

taway_1212 10y ago
Can you give examples of those demanding programming jobs requiring Ive League creds? I've never heard of such thing.
- mattgreenrocks 10y ago
  I should've elaborated further: I'm speaking more to R&D jobs. Think Google Labs vs Google, or MS Research vs MS proper.
  - nostrademons 10y ago
    R&D jobs really want a Ph.D - it doesn't so much matter if it's Ivy League (though that helps), it matters that you completed your dissertation. The reason is that they want to see evidence that you can take an unstructured problem where you don't have the faintest clue where to start, and make enough forward progress on it, on your own, that some useful contribution to human knowledge will come out the other end. This is a very different skillset from most software engineering jobs - when you're developing new knowledge, Google is useless, StackOverflow is useless, your peers are mostly useless, and you need to know how to ask the right questions and find the answers to them. A Ph.D is an institutionally-sanctioned way of demonstrating this skillset. There are other ways to demonstrate it - work in an industry research project that's successful and perceived as cutting-edge, founding a technology-based startup, published independent research that's cited by others - but they all involve you taking on the risk of conducting your first major research project on your own, without institutional guidance.
    - jventura 10y ago
      This is a good way to show how a PhD can be relevant to one's career outside academia, contrary to what is usually discussed here on HN..
  - taway_1212 10y ago
    Oh, right. Don't they put emphasis on top PhDs diplomas though and not "just" on an Ivy League BS/Msc?
copperx 10y ago
What kind of "demanding programming jobs" are you talking about, more specifically?
- mattgreenrocks 10y ago
  More of the R&D side of things, I feel. Perhaps I'm off my rocker? I've seen some cool compiler jobs by fintech firms where they want your SAT score and college GPA (lol).
CoolGuySteve 10y ago
More annoyingly, it's tough because you're expected to answer whiteboard algorithm questions that closely mimic CS course exam questions but have very little to do with real world programming. So that stuff you've been doing all day every day for the past 15 years is useless, you have to study for these interviews on your own time. Companies will even send you little study guides with references and strategies for practicing. Essentially and as far as Google/Facebook/etc are concerned, your experience is worthless and any fresh grad can plug into your role like a cog. Or at least that's what's implied by their selection criteria.
- markatto 10y ago
  For what it's worth, I currently work at one of the aforementioned software companies and my college experience is half a music degree. I didn't do any intense studying for the interview either, just spent a couple evenings doing project Euler problems in my favorite language to brush up as my job at the time was using different languages and didn't involve a lot of programming. I'm on the SRE/PE side of the world though, where I think interviews tend to line up with practical experience a little better.
  - HeavenBanned 10y ago
    >half a music degree >just spend a couple evenings doing project Euler problems Don't try to pass it off as though your unbridled talent didn't land you those roles. A near-infinite amount of people cannot do what you did due to lack of pure talent. Don't use survivorship bias.
- jimbokun 10y ago
  Google and Facebook are two of the few companies who probably do make use to CS style algorithm problems in real world coding.
JCDenton2052 10y ago
The most "demanding" dev jobs I am aware of are in the big four (or five) tech companies and as far as I know Ivy League credentials are not a priority for them when looking at a CV.
amorphid 10y ago
I studied business at a for-profit (not prestigious) college and was a technical recruiter (not prestigious) right before moving into development as a career. My current dev job is quite challenging, I am working with cool tech, and I learn every day. My route to this gig was: - learn Ruby well enough to sound like I knew a lot about hard things (go deep on one thing, instead of having a shallower portfolio of simpler things) - hustling to get that first coding gig, no matter how crappy it was - grinding through several jobs in a few years, learning each time how to pick a better fit, even if I had to move a few thousand miles/km to get a better gig (did that twice) - building up enough expertise in core web development skills (testing, MVC apps, DOM manipulation, etc.) and "under the web app" skills (writing libraries, learning to MITM myself, etc.) - researching what kind of job I wanted, selling that to interviewers, and eventually getting one (my current employer) to believe me enough to give me a job offer, and then working my butt off to learn what I need to learn how to succeed at this level while carving out enough time to climb to the next level tl;dr - work hard, learn marketable skill, go where jobs are, be hungry, do what you gotta do Happy to chat more if you like. My email is in my profile.

taway_1212 10y ago

Can you give examples of those demanding programming jobs requiring Ive League creds? I've never heard of such thing.

mattgreenrocks 10y ago
I should've elaborated further: I'm speaking more to R&D jobs. Think Google Labs vs Google, or MS Research vs MS proper.
- nostrademons 10y ago
  R&D jobs really want a Ph.D - it doesn't so much matter if it's Ivy League (though that helps), it matters that you completed your dissertation. The reason is that they want to see evidence that you can take an unstructured problem where you don't have the faintest clue where to start, and make enough forward progress on it, on your own, that some useful contribution to human knowledge will come out the other end. This is a very different skillset from most software engineering jobs - when you're developing new knowledge, Google is useless, StackOverflow is useless, your peers are mostly useless, and you need to know how to ask the right questions and find the answers to them. A Ph.D is an institutionally-sanctioned way of demonstrating this skillset. There are other ways to demonstrate it - work in an industry research project that's successful and perceived as cutting-edge, founding a technology-based startup, published independent research that's cited by others - but they all involve you taking on the risk of conducting your first major research project on your own, without institutional guidance.
  - jventura 10y ago
    This is a good way to show how a PhD can be relevant to one's career outside academia, contrary to what is usually discussed here on HN..
- taway_1212 10y ago
  Oh, right. Don't they put emphasis on top PhDs diplomas though and not "just" on an Ivy League BS/Msc?

copperx 10y ago

What kind of "demanding programming jobs" are you talking about, more specifically?

mattgreenrocks 10y ago
More of the R&D side of things, I feel. Perhaps I'm off my rocker? I've seen some cool compiler jobs by fintech firms where they want your SAT score and college GPA (lol).

CoolGuySteve 10y ago

More annoyingly, it's tough because you're expected to answer whiteboard algorithm questions that closely mimic CS course exam questions but have very little to do with real world programming. So that stuff you've been doing all day every day for the past 15 years is useless, you have to study for these interviews on your own time. Companies will even send you little study guides with references and strategies for practicing. Essentially and as far as Google/Facebook/etc are concerned, your experience is worthless and any fresh grad can plug into your role like a cog. Or at least that's what's implied by their selection criteria.

markatto 10y ago
For what it's worth, I currently work at one of the aforementioned software companies and my college experience is half a music degree. I didn't do any intense studying for the interview either, just spent a couple evenings doing project Euler problems in my favorite language to brush up as my job at the time was using different languages and didn't involve a lot of programming. I'm on the SRE/PE side of the world though, where I think interviews tend to line up with practical experience a little better.
- HeavenBanned 10y ago
  >half a music degree >just spend a couple evenings doing project Euler problems Don't try to pass it off as though your unbridled talent didn't land you those roles. A near-infinite amount of people cannot do what you did due to lack of pure talent. Don't use survivorship bias.
jimbokun 10y ago
Google and Facebook are two of the few companies who probably do make use to CS style algorithm problems in real world coding.

JCDenton2052 10y ago

The most "demanding" dev jobs I am aware of are in the big four (or five) tech companies and as far as I know Ivy League credentials are not a priority for them when looking at a CV.

amorphid 10y ago

I studied business at a for-profit (not prestigious) college and was a technical recruiter (not prestigious) right before moving into development as a career. My current dev job is quite challenging, I am working with cool tech, and I learn every day. My route to this gig was: - learn Ruby well enough to sound like I knew a lot about hard things (go deep on one thing, instead of having a shallower portfolio of simpler things) - hustling to get that first coding gig, no matter how crappy it was - grinding through several jobs in a few years, learning each time how to pick a better fit, even if I had to move a few thousand miles/km to get a better gig (did that twice) - building up enough expertise in core web development skills (testing, MVC apps, DOM manipulation, etc.) and "under the web app" skills (writing libraries, learning to MITM myself, etc.) - researching what kind of job I wanted, selling that to interviewers, and eventually getting one (my current employer) to believe me enough to give me a job offer, and then working my butt off to learn what I need to learn how to succeed at this level while carving out enough time to climb to the next level tl;dr - work hard, learn marketable skill, go where jobs are, be hungry, do what you gotta do Happy to chat more if you like. My email is in my profile.