13 ms·

Yes I Still Want to Be Doing This at 56 (2012)

157 points by jgrahamc 10y ago

bungie4 10y ago
56 here as well. Like yourself, I've been doing this for a long, long time. If it weren't for my personal projects that usually incorporate some pretty wild ideas or technologies, I think I would've given it up years ago. Today, with a head cold, trying to get caught up on the 400 emails I have because I took yesterday off. The idea of selling ice cream at the beach sounds like a kick-ass career move.
- overcast 10y ago
  36 and personal/side projects are the only thing that keep my sanity. Hopefully one or some become enough to move on, because I can't work for someone ever again.
battlebot 10y ago
43 here. You might think you still want to be coding into your 50s, but I am here to warn you that the matter is highly subjective. I'm noticing that each subsequent job search after 40 is a little tougher and rejections are for silly reasons now (because you're old isn't ever one of them). The laws won't protect you, so forget about that. No matter what you think, you won't be as employable in your 40s and 50s as you were in your 20s--being young in the tech industry means you can be exploited and exploitation is the #1 factor. They know young people will work a ton of extra hours for no extra pay to gain experience, to try and prove themselves, or whatever. I recently talked to a colleague who is 62 and still coding. He is worried about the next seven years as he is not ready to retire (not financially ready, that is). His department is going through downsizing and he is trying to position himself in another area that isn't likely to drop people. He rightly realizes that finding a new developer job at 62 will be next to impossible. It's all a big chess game after 40 so be prepared. Unlike the codist, I'm sure I don't want to be doing this work after 50. I have a plan for getting out. This year, because of a family obligation, I took some months off. During that time, I did a trial run of how to 'retire' from software development. There were quite a few surprises for me and it didn't look like I had expected. Finding an alternative career after 20+ years as a developer is do-able: There are roles that require attention to detail and analytical skills, but that don't require coding, for example. I won't go into detail, but I will say I rejected downshifting to a non-developer role even though I had a couple offers at 80-90% of what I was pulling down as a developer. Instead, I'm headed back to doing development for another 5-7 years, but with more knowledge about how to proceed in later years. I want to retire around age 50 and am working on having the passive income to do so. I may need to work part-time in odd jobs as well, but I predict I won't be a developer in my 50s. If you're older, you had better understand that the next downturn could very likely take your job and getting another one will be hard. For all the happy talk about how great the job market is and how age doesn't matter, I beg to differ. That "great" can change insanely quickly. There is more competition in our field than ever before and the only thing that creates job security for us is being able to actually write code and get crap done and even that is of thin value because companies don't care: they see us as another commodity. To management, it doesn't hardly matter how good a coder you are, companies are happy to accept fungible, mediocre people as long as the systems sort of work. The last thing I will leave you with is that you don't know how long you're going to live. If you have any ambition to do anything in life besides work, you need to get going on those plans right now. Dropping dead from a sudden heart attack or stroke does happen to a lot of people.
- defined 10y ago
  Some of us, for financial reasons (like emigration, bad luck, divorce, child support, or all the aforementioned) will be coding until we drop dead or get kicked out and can't get work. Trust me, most of us in this situation are probably acutely and painfully aware of the nightmare scenario, but we've got the tiger by the tail and can't realistically let go. Such is life.
Insanity 10y ago
Used to keep quite well up to date with reading this blog some years ago, thank you for bringing it back to my attention!
GrumpyNl 10y ago
56 here to, still love doing what im doing. For the younger ones, one advice. Keep it simple.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  As someone who is mid 30s, ageism in the industry concerns me. What have you observations been regarding your age when interviewing? Have you run into ageism?
  - behohippy 10y ago
    I have a friend in his early 60's that I recommended for a Hadoop job recently, and he was excluded due to age, despite being very qualified for the role. It happens, and I've seen it :(
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - rhizome 10y ago
      Have you provided your friend with the evidence so that they can pursue a discrimination claim?
      - behohippy 10y ago
        I'm not sure this is an normal response to these kinds of things, but maybe some context will help: A customer of mine asks for a recommendation on people who could do the job. I gave him a list of names, of which the top recommendation was my older buddy. Customer immediate filters out my buddy due to age but continues through the list eventually contacting and hiring another good choice (also a friend). I didn't tell my older friend that he was being considered, I just knew he was on the market. He doesn't know any of this exchanged happened, and due to his skill/experience level had already found something else in the meantime. No harm was done to anyone in the exchange, but obvious age discrimination was observed.
jlebrech 10y ago
at 56 i'll be a robot's assistant.
markbnj 10y ago
I'm 56, still doing software and systems engineering every day, still love it. My daily routine is a lot like the author's. I've thought off and on over the years about doing something else, but the simple fact is I'm addicted to that rush I get when we solve a problem and see it work for the first time.
awjr 10y ago
46 here, and for me, luckily I guess, I ended contracting from the age of 24 and have been doing that on and off for 22 years. I've been able to move technologies and really enjoy being right at the coal face. I have run projects and teams, but the pure pleasure I get from coding has never left me. I would say my one 'regret' is that I really did not discover hackathons and even meetups until about 3 years ago. Huge amounts of fun that has really integrated me into the local developer community. These days I contract as and when I need to financially, and then take time off to sprint at ideas as and when family life/finances allow me to. I do feel I came late to the idea of start-up culture but I never ever feel it is too late to learn.
Raphmedia 10y ago
I chose this career exactly because I wanted to have a career I could work in up to my 50s or 60s.
simonboulton 10y ago
63 here. Still doin' it...
jv22222 10y ago
I no longer have an age, I have a version. I am version 4.8. I already used that once but I think it's worth a repeat ;) --- On another note, this age subject has come up a few times: Old Geek: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12503458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12503458 Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580 Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9710936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9710936 I also wish I could copy paste this comment I already wrote: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9362508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9362508
- brudgers 10y ago
  I recommend planning for 4.10, 4.11, etc. rather than introducing breaking changes.
draw_down 10y ago
I'm 35, I wish I could relate. The technology is not the problem, of course.
atirip 10y ago
51, dont wont to do anything else. Working in a startup, coworkers are half my age. Having fun.
- mythrwy 10y ago
  Ya, but don't all the GIF memes on Slack annoy you just a bit? :)
mckoss 10y ago
Wow. Based on the number of responses here, we should start a club - "56 and still doing it". Those of us born around 1960 came of age during the earliest days of personal computing. I guess a lot of us got hooked and are still at it!
- Jun8 10y ago
  An older coders club is an excellent idea, I'm in. Looking at the discussion for this and some other HN threads there's definitely interest, but this a horribly served segment, I think. Most material (blogs, videos, etc.) are done by and target the younger coders.
  - BatFastard 10y ago
    Sign me up, I have a bunch of friends who would join too. All late 50's Likewise I have been the Manager/CTO/Founder route quite a few times. I find I like the coding problems driving my dreams more then the "how do I deal with/fire so and so" problems.
  - henrik_w 10y ago
    OLd Geek Jobs [1] was popular here recently [2]. [1] https://oldgeekjobs.com/ https://oldgeekjobs.com/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12506232 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12506232
- TheGrassyKnoll 10y ago
  58. I still like to think my best work hasn't happened yet...
- defined 10y ago
  58, programming since 1978. I can't imagine wanting to do anything else.
- chrisbennet 10y ago
  Coding since 1985 and still loving it. I consult now so I mostly work out of my own office. The key to my happiness has been working for small/tiny companies where software was super important. I got to wear a lot of hats that way.
MaggieL 10y ago
I was still doing it at 56...eight years ago.
- ido 10y ago
  Are you now too?
to3m 10y ago
A contrary view: http://thecodist.com/article/my-biggest-regret-as-a-programmer http://thecodist.com/article/my-biggest-regret-as-a-programm...
- ra88it 10y ago
  Is this the same writer?
  - strictnein 10y ago
    Wait... yeah, isn't it? That makes the 2012 post have a very different feeling, after reading this.
    - mythrwy 10y ago
      A bit. Sounds like he still enjoyed programming but was kicking himself about all the money he missed out on by leaving the Bay area and quitting Apple in 94.
  - infinite8s 10y ago
    yes.
- jcmoscon 10y ago
  I regret to have read this. It is very depressing, but also eye opening.
- strictnein 10y ago
  Mid 30s and this reflects the worry I have about my future. I kind of want to head down the non-programming technical management/leadership path, but I'm just not seeing a way to take that step right now. Same issue as always, people are (supposedly) desperate for managers and leaders with real tech/dev background, but they want you to have technical management experience already. It's not that I don't like programming in general, it's just that so many of the things that many of us get paid well to do are so damn boring.
irrational 10y ago
Yes I Still Want to be Doing This at 65.
minipci1321 10y ago
Still love coding (and still going to be doing it at 56, no choice), but coding at work lost appeal for me -- rat-racing in Agile teams, with every keystroke accounted for in JIra, and no place for a smallest independent idea to try. No wonder there is less and less experienced people on those teams, and the tech landshaft adapts accordingly -- people just don't know anymore how to employ experienced developers. Big old companies are not built that way anymore (am employed by one, multi-national, tried several geos, all the same), and young companies... you know it all, young folks are just smarter. Sorry to sound pessimistic (I am not really, for many reasons, one of them being, I cannnot afford to retire). Side projects, yes. Becoming wilder and wilder with every year, rarely reaching the end. Just for staying sane as someone here mentioned.
- m3talsmith 10y ago
  When I was young, I wanted to stay away from the old large companies. When I crossed the 35 year threshold, they became the only one's I wanted to work for: every passing year made that desire stronger. Almost 40 now and finally working for one, I couldn't be happier - I could be making more, but not happier.
  - timdavila 10y ago
    This is an interesting perspective. Can you share more on your reasoning for wanting to work for a BigCo as you got older?
    - m3talsmith 10y ago
      I've spent most of my career (20+ years) working on or with startups. I loved that environment when it came to building my own startups; I loved diving in and working an insane amount of time to prove my ideas out; I loved networking in the evenings with investors and other startups; and I especially loved getting others excited about the product. The truth is though is that wore me down. I ended up earning myself a chronic illness which severely slowed me down from the startup pace. I also have a family and as my kids grew, so did the time demands. I thought that my partners would understand, given I've put my life into everything I worked on, but that never materialized. In the end, startup after startup, I've found that there's little room for sickness and especially a family. Sure, when you're young it's ok, but as you get older, or as your family ages, there is this idea of your family just has to understand that you have to do this to make all their dreams come true: founders say that family and health comes first, then try to persuade you that those really come second. I really do understand where they are coming from. It's all a high pressure game with very little likelihood of succeeding. First to market matters more than not. Notice how many founders are either single or have marriage issues. Survival comes first for them. I had to ask myself if that's really what I wanted. It turns out, all I really want to do is be good at what I'm working on, support my family, and have coworkers that I can enjoy being around because they value the same things. I found that in larger corporations that weren't about survival anymore. That's what informed my search most of all: the values of the peers I would be working with.
Mankhool 10y ago
I just turned 54 and started learning to code at 53. Okay, learning to code again because I haven't done anything since 1985 and FORTRAN77. It's interesting because my employer (a multinational telco HQ'd in Canada) is keen to give me real work coding as soon as I want it. So with that, and my real purpose (building my next application myself) I'm really engaged and having a lot of fun.
julian55 10y ago
I'm 61 and still coding. Although I am winding down, only working 4 days a week now.
kamaal 10y ago
I want to be a programmer or at least be building important stuff at 56. I just don't want my sustenance to depend on it. There is crazy ageism in this industry. And I don't want to fighting pointless battles, while you could be spending time in peace doing a lot of other work.
nunez 10y ago
Frankly, I can't agree with the author here, at least not professionally. I want to be running an engineering org or company by 40. I enjoy coding and architecting, but I get much more enjoyment out of helping people get to where they want to go in their careers. I also enjoy the idea of directly helping businesses make more money/reach bigger markets and collecting much bigger paychecks (supposedly) and or bonuses as a result. I do enjoy coding, though, so I would like to keep doing that during whatever spare time I can find. Though between living life on weekends and career efforts after hours during the weekdays, this will likely be difficult to do (as it already is).
- jimbokun 10y ago
  "but I get much more enjoyment out of helping people get to where they want to go in their careers. I also enjoy the idea of directly helping businesses make more money/reach bigger markets" Yeah, you don't sound like someone who will be happiest if you stick to coding. A lot of us code precisely because we don't feel comfortable or confident with the skills you mention.
randcraw 10y ago
I'm the same age as the author and have been coding since 1986. I still enjoy the immersive (flow) aspect of coding, but I'm no longer compelled to code in my off hours. In fact, about 25 years ago I realized that coding alone couldn't keep me enraptured indefinitely. So I diversified into R&D: AI & data mining, HPC, image processing, and recently deep learning. I hope to remain in harness for another decade, probably in some sort of AI role, which seems plausible since the demand in that space for skill + experience far outstrips supply, and I'm willing to move.
magoghm 10y ago
I'm 56 and I hope I will still be coding for many more years.
mattgreenrocks 10y ago
I like programming a lot, and am pretty good at it. What I dislike is the fact that it feels very tough to break into demanding programming jobs without Ivy League credentials. I certainly have the experience, and I've done some badass stuff, but, yeah. Any advice is welcome. I am 35 and trying to work to avoid being dead-ended as a replaceable dev. Really interested in PL implementations and empowering devs to do more.
- taway_1212 10y ago
  Can you give examples of those demanding programming jobs requiring Ive League creds? I've never heard of such thing.
  - mattgreenrocks 10y ago
    I should've elaborated further: I'm speaking more to R&D jobs. Think Google Labs vs Google, or MS Research vs MS proper.
    - nostrademons 10y ago
      R&D jobs really want a Ph.D - it doesn't so much matter if it's Ivy League (though that helps), it matters that you completed your dissertation. The reason is that they want to see evidence that you can take an unstructured problem where you don't have the faintest clue where to start, and make enough forward progress on it, on your own, that some useful contribution to human knowledge will come out the other end. This is a very different skillset from most software engineering jobs - when you're developing new knowledge, Google is useless, StackOverflow is useless, your peers are mostly useless, and you need to know how to ask the right questions and find the answers to them. A Ph.D is an institutionally-sanctioned way of demonstrating this skillset. There are other ways to demonstrate it - work in an industry research project that's successful and perceived as cutting-edge, founding a technology-based startup, published independent research that's cited by others - but they all involve you taking on the risk of conducting your first major research project on your own, without institutional guidance.
DoodleBuggy 10y ago
With age discrimination, will a 56 year old still be employed? Perhaps as a manager.
darreld 10y ago
I'm still loving it at 60. I'm actually looking forward to being able to change jobs in the next year, but I am realistic about how difficult it will be.
fgandiya 10y ago
Didn't he write an article about how his biggest regret is not going into the management route?
- justboxing 10y ago
  Correct. 4 years after this 2012 article, he wrote this [2016] => http://thecodist.com/article/my-biggest-regret-as-a-programmer http://thecodist.com/article/my-biggest-regret-as-a-programm... He laments how he quit Apple when it was going down, then Steve Jobs came along few months later and the rest is history. Also how his Sister went the management route and has 10x Assets etc. I wish I hadn't found this 2016 article because that makes me read this OP 2012 article in a whole new light. And it's not very encouraging... :(
Not31337 10y ago
Fifty Eight and reading and retaining more IT tech news than the Students in the classes I teach. I am 1/3 programmer and 2/3 sysadmin, overlay by manager and trainer. It the variety that has kept me going. After 3 to 7 years I want to toss out the things I working on and move on. Always planing for the next cycle. Studying up for a couple of Cert by the end of the year because I am getting that itchy feeling.
lacampbell 10y ago
One thing to remember is that the US has places with much higher salaries and a lot lower land costs than the rest of the world. In NZ, the median house price is 5 times the annual salary of a senior dev. In our largest city, it's 8 times that. So the romantic idea of staying close to the tech and coding forever and not becoming a suit for me is really just that - a romantic idea. I want to own a decent house and support myself during retirement. So forget 56. I don't want to be doing this when I'm 35.
- eliben 10y ago
  > In NZ, the median house price is 5 times the annual salary of a senior dev. In our largest city, it's 8 times that Depends on what you mean by "senior", but that's not very far from the situation in the Bay Area
  - lacampbell 10y ago
    Right, but that's one area in a huge country. 5 times is the median across my entire country, most of which is provincial and rural, and which only has a single city over 1 million.
    - eliben 10y ago
      Well, this "one area" has significantly larger population than the whole of NZ, but I take your point. I think you're trying to point out the low salaries of SW developers, because I find it hard to imagine homes in non-central areas are very expensive? P.S. I <3 NZ
      - lacampbell 10y ago
        No, it's much more a case of over-priced homes [1] than under priced developers. Even homes in non-central areas are very expensive - not to mention of a very low standard Here's [2] an insulated house with no central heating and single glazed windows in a town of 20k people going for $125,000 USD. No real employment opportunities unless you work for local government or commute 50km. No Lord of the Rings style vistas in the Horowhenua either, it's drained swamp. [1] http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-housing-most-unaffordable-in-the-world-the-economist.html http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-hous... [2] http://www.realestate.co.nz/3036902 http://www.realestate.co.nz/3036902
uxcolumbo 10y ago
A question for programmers in their 30s wanting to still be doing this in their 50s and 60s... Are you worried about the advancement in AI, i.e. programs writing other programs... will there still be enough programming jobs in 20 years for humans? Ps I'm only a prototyper, I don't create production ready code, hence the slightly naive question.
- alpha_squared 10y ago
  I'm still in my 20s, though fast approaching 30s. I'm not sure if I'll still be doing this in my 50s and 60s, but I'm not concerned. Maybe it's naive of me to not be, but there is a pretty significant delta at the moment between current AI and true, sentient, AI. We're quite a ways away. And, if we ever do get there, I think the least of my problems will be, "oh, well, there goes my job."
- karllager 10y ago
  No, not worried about that, particularly. But there are few other options, that might be worrying to some: The routine tasks will more and more go away. Still amazed how much is done by hand today (like research, data preparation, communication, marketing, business to business processes, scheduling, HR). Just as with every profession over the past decades, if you want to stay employable, you will have to level up your game significantly because the simple software stuff (of which there is a huge amounts today) will go away, let's say in the next ten years. In 2030 software related employment will look more like in the 1960s. A highly selected and highly self selective group of borderline asperger guys having a blast thinking, proving theorems, playing piano and writing code. Why I believe that? Because we see the 80-20 rule play out in so many fields. And in 2030 the leverage you get from technology will just a tad more intense that in is today.
- jimbokun 10y ago
  "will there still be enough programming jobs in 20 years for humans?" Maybe not, but that means there aren't any other jobs for humans, either. Machines that no longer need humans to program them is pretty much the definition of the singularity, which means machines quickly surpassing humans at everything.
- 10y ago
billforsternz 10y ago
I am 56 and still love programming. I had a wake-up call recently about whether the programming world still loves me however. I am looking for a new challenge and saw an opening for a "C++ cross platform dev" at an interesting (sports stats and league management) startup just down the road from my house. I love sport, love stats and I've been hobby coding a successful C++ chess GUI for years (plus tons of professional C++ experience). Submitted an application through an annoying SaaS job application site. When the submission completed the automated message from the CTO was "thanks we'll get in touch if your experience matches our needs". I had a strange premonition. "I am never going to hear from these guys". Two weeks later, after hearing nothing I thought I'd try something else. After spending an hour to eventually successfully find out the CTO's email (it's one of these cool new companies that makes direct contact more or less impossible) I sent the following email; Subject: Can I Buy you a Coffee? To: $Name, CTO $Company Hi $Name, I am an experienced programmer looking for interesting challenges. $Company is exactly the kind of company I'd like to help out next. I love the idea of taking on the world from $NiceSuburbWhereBothMeAndCompanyLive. I could send you a CV but I don't think that's the best way of us finding out if there is a real opportunity for me to help you. Basically I have heaps of experience in a bunch of important technologies, but much more importantly I am capable of learning new languages and technologies quickly. For example, at the moment I am teaching myself Rust, just for the hell of it, and because I think it is cool and exciting and has a future. I am not a paint by numbers developer. Copying and pasting snippets from Stackoverflow without understanding is not my thing. Deep level understanding and sound software engineering is my thing. I'd love a chance to show you what I can do, and I would definitely consider doing so on an unpaid basis, at least initially. I've had some significant success in my career and these days I don't have to work to make a living. For this reason I could be the ultimately flexible "resource" - for example it's possible I could help out on an occasional basis, without requiring inflated contractors' rates. Basically I am offering something a little bit "out of the box". I don't think either of us has much to lose by having that coffee and opening our minds to the possibilities. Cheers, Bill. I must admit this time I did expect a reply, but no luck this time either. What kind of person would just ignore something like that? I think it might be a generational thing - just ignore emails if you don't want to answer them. They're still advertising that C++ job too. It took me a while to realise that these days cross platform C++ probably means iOS and Android - not Windows, Mac and Linux any more. Still you get a certain amount of experience and you realise there's very little really new under the sun and you can adapt your experience and understanding and learn anything "new" quickly if you need to. End of my bitter rant.
hehheh 10y ago
I'm late 30something and I do not want to be writing code any more. I'm burnt out, thanks to being an Android developer. (Don't do it!) I'm not sure what I'll do instead. I've been reading a bunch of stuff folks have written about the subject, but most people are focused on going in to management or QA or whatever. I think I'd just like "out". My brain ain't what it used to be and I'd rather quit than be fired, if you get my meaning. I don't have an answer yet. I half-joke about becoming an Amazon Flex driver.
- jventura 10y ago
  > I'm burnt out, thanks to being an Android developer. (Don't do it!) Curious by your answer: something about bad apis on Android, or you got burned by deadlines or boring work?
  - hehheh 10y ago
    Whoa sorry about my super late reply here. The APIs are not great. Some of it is down to poor naming, for example: The callback you'd use on a CheckBox is called `OnCheckedChangeListener.onCheckedChanged(view, boolean)` (or something) but it is called whether or not the check state actually changed (e.g. if you call `setChecked(true)` and it's already checked you'll get the callback anyway). This is an issue that plagues the APIs in other places like `OnLayoutChangeListener` and `TextWatcher.OnTextChanged` The fragment lifecycle is incredibly complex to the point that many people advocate against using it -- I'm one of them. It's like someone decided to try to solve every problem ever without asking the real users (devs) what they thought was wrong. But the worst thing about it, bar none, is just how long it takes to build and run an app. We're talking 1.5-2 minutes. Everyone has their pet idea for reducing the build/test cycle but they provide marginal benefits at best and don't offer up concrete examples with concrete data (e.g. "I am running this gradle command for this github project on this computer and am measuring it this way, and here are my results"). I've spent weeks of time, scattered over the years, trying to figure out a way to reduce this to something more reasonable like 5 seconds, but to no avail. My best guess is that other people are working on tiny toy apps or are just building the default project and then proclaiming that I must be mistaken, I must be doing something wrong for my build (of a reasonable sized app) to be as slow as it is.
dwarman 10y ago
69 now. still working. big(gish) co so good insurance, would not have it on my own. Embedded systems.
wwweston 10y ago
> If you want to be a programmer at 55 still you can't ever lose the hunger to know more, know better and know simpler. Once you lose that edge the technology steamroller keeps on coming closer and closer until you wind up flat doing something else for a living. Steamroller is an interesting metaphor. Treadmill is a little more common, thinking about the difference is potentially instructive. Having observed some points between 20something and 55 (if still a good ways off from the latter end), one of the things I've noticed is that I'm no less hungry to know more. I'm possible more hungry -- as my knowledge has grown, I've realized how much more there is that I don't know. But I'm also far more picky and concerned about ROI. I have less patience for learning to keep up with churn; if it's at all possible, I prefer to reserve new learning for new capabilities rather than learning a new way of doing the same thing. Unless it clearly is better and simpler (but if that were so clear, why the proliferation of solutions?)...
mistermumble 10y ago
64 and still coding, although not full-time. 8 years ago I learned Objective-C and physics engines and published a number of mobile apps for IOS. Nowadays I am learning Go, Solidity & Viper and writing blockchain-based dapps. Big fun.

157 points by jgrahamc 10y ago

56 here as well. Like yourself, I've been doing this for a long, long time. If it weren't for my personal projects that usually incorporate some pretty wild ideas or technologies, I think I would've given it up years ago. Today, with a head cold, trying to get caught up on the 400 emails I have because I took yesterday off. The idea of selling ice cream at the beach sounds like a kick-ass career move.

overcast 10y ago
36 and personal/side projects are the only thing that keep my sanity. Hopefully one or some become enough to move on, because I can't work for someone ever again.

battlebot 10y ago

43 here. You might think you still want to be coding into your 50s, but I am here to warn you that the matter is highly subjective. I'm noticing that each subsequent job search after 40 is a little tougher and rejections are for silly reasons now (because you're old isn't ever one of them). The laws won't protect you, so forget about that. No matter what you think, you won't be as employable in your 40s and 50s as you were in your 20s--being young in the tech industry means you can be exploited and exploitation is the #1 factor. They know young people will work a ton of extra hours for no extra pay to gain experience, to try and prove themselves, or whatever. I recently talked to a colleague who is 62 and still coding. He is worried about the next seven years as he is not ready to retire (not financially ready, that is). His department is going through downsizing and he is trying to position himself in another area that isn't likely to drop people. He rightly realizes that finding a new developer job at 62 will be next to impossible. It's all a big chess game after 40 so be prepared. Unlike the codist, I'm sure I don't want to be doing this work after 50. I have a plan for getting out. This year, because of a family obligation, I took some months off. During that time, I did a trial run of how to 'retire' from software development. There were quite a few surprises for me and it didn't look like I had expected. Finding an alternative career after 20+ years as a developer is do-able: There are roles that require attention to detail and analytical skills, but that don't require coding, for example. I won't go into detail, but I will say I rejected downshifting to a non-developer role even though I had a couple offers at 80-90% of what I was pulling down as a developer. Instead, I'm headed back to doing development for another 5-7 years, but with more knowledge about how to proceed in later years. I want to retire around age 50 and am working on having the passive income to do so. I may need to work part-time in odd jobs as well, but I predict I won't be a developer in my 50s. If you're older, you had better understand that the next downturn could very likely take your job and getting another one will be hard. For all the happy talk about how great the job market is and how age doesn't matter, I beg to differ. That "great" can change insanely quickly. There is more competition in our field than ever before and the only thing that creates job security for us is being able to actually write code and get crap done and even that is of thin value because companies don't care: they see us as another commodity. To management, it doesn't hardly matter how good a coder you are, companies are happy to accept fungible, mediocre people as long as the systems sort of work. The last thing I will leave you with is that you don't know how long you're going to live. If you have any ambition to do anything in life besides work, you need to get going on those plans right now. Dropping dead from a sudden heart attack or stroke does happen to a lot of people.

defined 10y ago
Some of us, for financial reasons (like emigration, bad luck, divorce, child support, or all the aforementioned) will be coding until we drop dead or get kicked out and can't get work. Trust me, most of us in this situation are probably acutely and painfully aware of the nightmare scenario, but we've got the tiger by the tail and can't realistically let go. Such is life.

Insanity 10y ago

Used to keep quite well up to date with reading this blog some years ago, thank you for bringing it back to my attention!

GrumpyNl 10y ago

56 here to, still love doing what im doing. For the younger ones, one advice. Keep it simple.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
As someone who is mid 30s, ageism in the industry concerns me. What have you observations been regarding your age when interviewing? Have you run into ageism?
- behohippy 10y ago
  I have a friend in his early 60's that I recommended for a Hadoop job recently, and he was excluded due to age, despite being very qualified for the role. It happens, and I've seen it :(
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - rhizome 10y ago
    Have you provided your friend with the evidence so that they can pursue a discrimination claim?
    - behohippy 10y ago
      I'm not sure this is an normal response to these kinds of things, but maybe some context will help: A customer of mine asks for a recommendation on people who could do the job. I gave him a list of names, of which the top recommendation was my older buddy. Customer immediate filters out my buddy due to age but continues through the list eventually contacting and hiring another good choice (also a friend). I didn't tell my older friend that he was being considered, I just knew he was on the market. He doesn't know any of this exchanged happened, and due to his skill/experience level had already found something else in the meantime. No harm was done to anyone in the exchange, but obvious age discrimination was observed.

jlebrech 10y ago

at 56 i'll be a robot's assistant.

markbnj 10y ago

I'm 56, still doing software and systems engineering every day, still love it. My daily routine is a lot like the author's. I've thought off and on over the years about doing something else, but the simple fact is I'm addicted to that rush I get when we solve a problem and see it work for the first time.

awjr 10y ago

46 here, and for me, luckily I guess, I ended contracting from the age of 24 and have been doing that on and off for 22 years. I've been able to move technologies and really enjoy being right at the coal face. I have run projects and teams, but the pure pleasure I get from coding has never left me. I would say my one 'regret' is that I really did not discover hackathons and even meetups until about 3 years ago. Huge amounts of fun that has really integrated me into the local developer community. These days I contract as and when I need to financially, and then take time off to sprint at ideas as and when family life/finances allow me to. I do feel I came late to the idea of start-up culture but I never ever feel it is too late to learn.

Raphmedia 10y ago

I chose this career exactly because I wanted to have a career I could work in up to my 50s or 60s.

simonboulton 10y ago

63 here. Still doin' it...

jv22222 10y ago

I no longer have an age, I have a version. I am version 4.8. I already used that once but I think it's worth a repeat ;) --- On another note, this age subject has come up a few times: Old Geek: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12503458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12503458 Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580 Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9710936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9710936 I also wish I could copy paste this comment I already wrote: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9362508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9362508

brudgers 10y ago
I recommend planning for 4.10, 4.11, etc. rather than introducing breaking changes.

draw_down 10y ago

I'm 35, I wish I could relate. The technology is not the problem, of course.

atirip 10y ago

51, dont wont to do anything else. Working in a startup, coworkers are half my age. Having fun.

mythrwy 10y ago
Ya, but don't all the GIF memes on Slack annoy you just a bit? :)

mckoss 10y ago

Wow. Based on the number of responses here, we should start a club - "56 and still doing it". Those of us born around 1960 came of age during the earliest days of personal computing. I guess a lot of us got hooked and are still at it!

Jun8 10y ago
An older coders club is an excellent idea, I'm in. Looking at the discussion for this and some other HN threads there's definitely interest, but this a horribly served segment, I think. Most material (blogs, videos, etc.) are done by and target the younger coders.
- BatFastard 10y ago
  Sign me up, I have a bunch of friends who would join too. All late 50's Likewise I have been the Manager/CTO/Founder route quite a few times. I find I like the coding problems driving my dreams more then the "how do I deal with/fire so and so" problems.
- henrik_w 10y ago
  OLd Geek Jobs [1] was popular here recently [2]. [1] https://oldgeekjobs.com/ https://oldgeekjobs.com/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12506232 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12506232
TheGrassyKnoll 10y ago
58. I still like to think my best work hasn't happened yet...
defined 10y ago
58, programming since 1978. I can't imagine wanting to do anything else.
chrisbennet 10y ago
Coding since 1985 and still loving it. I consult now so I mostly work out of my own office. The key to my happiness has been working for small/tiny companies where software was super important. I got to wear a lot of hats that way.

MaggieL 10y ago

I was still doing it at 56...eight years ago.

ido 10y ago
Are you now too?

to3m 10y ago

A contrary view: http://thecodist.com/article/my-biggest-regret-as-a-programmer http://thecodist.com/article/my-biggest-regret-as-a-programm...

ra88it 10y ago
Is this the same writer?
- strictnein 10y ago
  Wait... yeah, isn't it? That makes the 2012 post have a very different feeling, after reading this.
  - mythrwy 10y ago
    A bit. Sounds like he still enjoyed programming but was kicking himself about all the money he missed out on by leaving the Bay area and quitting Apple in 94.
- infinite8s 10y ago
  yes.
jcmoscon 10y ago
I regret to have read this. It is very depressing, but also eye opening.
strictnein 10y ago
Mid 30s and this reflects the worry I have about my future. I kind of want to head down the non-programming technical management/leadership path, but I'm just not seeing a way to take that step right now. Same issue as always, people are (supposedly) desperate for managers and leaders with real tech/dev background, but they want you to have technical management experience already. It's not that I don't like programming in general, it's just that so many of the things that many of us get paid well to do are so damn boring.

irrational 10y ago

Yes I Still Want to be Doing This at 65.

minipci1321 10y ago

Still love coding (and still going to be doing it at 56, no choice), but coding at work lost appeal for me -- rat-racing in Agile teams, with every keystroke accounted for in JIra, and no place for a smallest independent idea to try. No wonder there is less and less experienced people on those teams, and the tech landshaft adapts accordingly -- people just don't know anymore how to employ experienced developers. Big old companies are not built that way anymore (am employed by one, multi-national, tried several geos, all the same), and young companies... you know it all, young folks are just smarter. Sorry to sound pessimistic (I am not really, for many reasons, one of them being, I cannnot afford to retire). Side projects, yes. Becoming wilder and wilder with every year, rarely reaching the end. Just for staying sane as someone here mentioned.

m3talsmith 10y ago
When I was young, I wanted to stay away from the old large companies. When I crossed the 35 year threshold, they became the only one's I wanted to work for: every passing year made that desire stronger. Almost 40 now and finally working for one, I couldn't be happier - I could be making more, but not happier.
- timdavila 10y ago
  This is an interesting perspective. Can you share more on your reasoning for wanting to work for a BigCo as you got older?
  - m3talsmith 10y ago
    I've spent most of my career (20+ years) working on or with startups. I loved that environment when it came to building my own startups; I loved diving in and working an insane amount of time to prove my ideas out; I loved networking in the evenings with investors and other startups; and I especially loved getting others excited about the product. The truth is though is that wore me down. I ended up earning myself a chronic illness which severely slowed me down from the startup pace. I also have a family and as my kids grew, so did the time demands. I thought that my partners would understand, given I've put my life into everything I worked on, but that never materialized. In the end, startup after startup, I've found that there's little room for sickness and especially a family. Sure, when you're young it's ok, but as you get older, or as your family ages, there is this idea of your family just has to understand that you have to do this to make all their dreams come true: founders say that family and health comes first, then try to persuade you that those really come second. I really do understand where they are coming from. It's all a high pressure game with very little likelihood of succeeding. First to market matters more than not. Notice how many founders are either single or have marriage issues. Survival comes first for them. I had to ask myself if that's really what I wanted. It turns out, all I really want to do is be good at what I'm working on, support my family, and have coworkers that I can enjoy being around because they value the same things. I found that in larger corporations that weren't about survival anymore. That's what informed my search most of all: the values of the peers I would be working with.

Mankhool 10y ago

I just turned 54 and started learning to code at 53. Okay, learning to code again because I haven't done anything since 1985 and FORTRAN77. It's interesting because my employer (a multinational telco HQ'd in Canada) is keen to give me real work coding as soon as I want it. So with that, and my real purpose (building my next application myself) I'm really engaged and having a lot of fun.

julian55 10y ago

I'm 61 and still coding. Although I am winding down, only working 4 days a week now.

kamaal 10y ago

I want to be a programmer or at least be building important stuff at 56. I just don't want my sustenance to depend on it. There is crazy ageism in this industry. And I don't want to fighting pointless battles, while you could be spending time in peace doing a lot of other work.

nunez 10y ago

Frankly, I can't agree with the author here, at least not professionally. I want to be running an engineering org or company by 40. I enjoy coding and architecting, but I get much more enjoyment out of helping people get to where they want to go in their careers. I also enjoy the idea of directly helping businesses make more money/reach bigger markets and collecting much bigger paychecks (supposedly) and or bonuses as a result. I do enjoy coding, though, so I would like to keep doing that during whatever spare time I can find. Though between living life on weekends and career efforts after hours during the weekdays, this will likely be difficult to do (as it already is).

jimbokun 10y ago
"but I get much more enjoyment out of helping people get to where they want to go in their careers. I also enjoy the idea of directly helping businesses make more money/reach bigger markets" Yeah, you don't sound like someone who will be happiest if you stick to coding. A lot of us code precisely because we don't feel comfortable or confident with the skills you mention.

randcraw 10y ago

I'm the same age as the author and have been coding since 1986. I still enjoy the immersive (flow) aspect of coding, but I'm no longer compelled to code in my off hours. In fact, about 25 years ago I realized that coding alone couldn't keep me enraptured indefinitely. So I diversified into R&D: AI & data mining, HPC, image processing, and recently deep learning. I hope to remain in harness for another decade, probably in some sort of AI role, which seems plausible since the demand in that space for skill + experience far outstrips supply, and I'm willing to move.

magoghm 10y ago

I'm 56 and I hope I will still be coding for many more years.

mattgreenrocks 10y ago

I like programming a lot, and am pretty good at it. What I dislike is the fact that it feels very tough to break into demanding programming jobs without Ivy League credentials. I certainly have the experience, and I've done some badass stuff, but, yeah. Any advice is welcome. I am 35 and trying to work to avoid being dead-ended as a replaceable dev. Really interested in PL implementations and empowering devs to do more.

taway_1212 10y ago
Can you give examples of those demanding programming jobs requiring Ive League creds? I've never heard of such thing.
- mattgreenrocks 10y ago
  I should've elaborated further: I'm speaking more to R&D jobs. Think Google Labs vs Google, or MS Research vs MS proper.
  - nostrademons 10y ago
    R&D jobs really want a Ph.D - it doesn't so much matter if it's Ivy League (though that helps), it matters that you completed your dissertation. The reason is that they want to see evidence that you can take an unstructured problem where you don't have the faintest clue where to start, and make enough forward progress on it, on your own, that some useful contribution to human knowledge will come out the other end. This is a very different skillset from most software engineering jobs - when you're developing new knowledge, Google is useless, StackOverflow is useless, your peers are mostly useless, and you need to know how to ask the right questions and find the answers to them. A Ph.D is an institutionally-sanctioned way of demonstrating this skillset. There are other ways to demonstrate it - work in an industry research project that's successful and perceived as cutting-edge, founding a technology-based startup, published independent research that's cited by others - but they all involve you taking on the risk of conducting your first major research project on your own, without institutional guidance.

DoodleBuggy 10y ago

With age discrimination, will a 56 year old still be employed? Perhaps as a manager.

darreld 10y ago

I'm still loving it at 60. I'm actually looking forward to being able to change jobs in the next year, but I am realistic about how difficult it will be.

fgandiya 10y ago

Didn't he write an article about how his biggest regret is not going into the management route?

justboxing 10y ago
Correct. 4 years after this 2012 article, he wrote this [2016] => http://thecodist.com/article/my-biggest-regret-as-a-programmer http://thecodist.com/article/my-biggest-regret-as-a-programm... He laments how he quit Apple when it was going down, then Steve Jobs came along few months later and the rest is history. Also how his Sister went the management route and has 10x Assets etc. I wish I hadn't found this 2016 article because that makes me read this OP 2012 article in a whole new light. And it's not very encouraging... :(

Not31337 10y ago

Fifty Eight and reading and retaining more IT tech news than the Students in the classes I teach. I am 1/3 programmer and 2/3 sysadmin, overlay by manager and trainer. It the variety that has kept me going. After 3 to 7 years I want to toss out the things I working on and move on. Always planing for the next cycle. Studying up for a couple of Cert by the end of the year because I am getting that itchy feeling.

lacampbell 10y ago

One thing to remember is that the US has places with much higher salaries and a lot lower land costs than the rest of the world. In NZ, the median house price is 5 times the annual salary of a senior dev. In our largest city, it's 8 times that. So the romantic idea of staying close to the tech and coding forever and not becoming a suit for me is really just that - a romantic idea. I want to own a decent house and support myself during retirement. So forget 56. I don't want to be doing this when I'm 35.

eliben 10y ago
> In NZ, the median house price is 5 times the annual salary of a senior dev. In our largest city, it's 8 times that Depends on what you mean by "senior", but that's not very far from the situation in the Bay Area
- lacampbell 10y ago
  Right, but that's one area in a huge country. 5 times is the median across my entire country, most of which is provincial and rural, and which only has a single city over 1 million.
  - eliben 10y ago
    Well, this "one area" has significantly larger population than the whole of NZ, but I take your point. I think you're trying to point out the low salaries of SW developers, because I find it hard to imagine homes in non-central areas are very expensive? P.S. I <3 NZ
    - lacampbell 10y ago
      No, it's much more a case of over-priced homes [1] than under priced developers. Even homes in non-central areas are very expensive - not to mention of a very low standard Here's [2] an insulated house with no central heating and single glazed windows in a town of 20k people going for $125,000 USD. No real employment opportunities unless you work for local government or commute 50km. No Lord of the Rings style vistas in the Horowhenua either, it's drained swamp. [1] http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-housing-most-unaffordable-in-the-world-the-economist.html http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-hous... [2] http://www.realestate.co.nz/3036902 http://www.realestate.co.nz/3036902

uxcolumbo 10y ago

A question for programmers in their 30s wanting to still be doing this in their 50s and 60s... Are you worried about the advancement in AI, i.e. programs writing other programs... will there still be enough programming jobs in 20 years for humans? Ps I'm only a prototyper, I don't create production ready code, hence the slightly naive question.

alpha_squared 10y ago
I'm still in my 20s, though fast approaching 30s. I'm not sure if I'll still be doing this in my 50s and 60s, but I'm not concerned. Maybe it's naive of me to not be, but there is a pretty significant delta at the moment between current AI and true, sentient, AI. We're quite a ways away. And, if we ever do get there, I think the least of my problems will be, "oh, well, there goes my job."
karllager 10y ago
No, not worried about that, particularly. But there are few other options, that might be worrying to some: The routine tasks will more and more go away. Still amazed how much is done by hand today (like research, data preparation, communication, marketing, business to business processes, scheduling, HR). Just as with every profession over the past decades, if you want to stay employable, you will have to level up your game significantly because the simple software stuff (of which there is a huge amounts today) will go away, let's say in the next ten years. In 2030 software related employment will look more like in the 1960s. A highly selected and highly self selective group of borderline asperger guys having a blast thinking, proving theorems, playing piano and writing code. Why I believe that? Because we see the 80-20 rule play out in so many fields. And in 2030 the leverage you get from technology will just a tad more intense that in is today.
jimbokun 10y ago
"will there still be enough programming jobs in 20 years for humans?" Maybe not, but that means there aren't any other jobs for humans, either. Machines that no longer need humans to program them is pretty much the definition of the singularity, which means machines quickly surpassing humans at everything.
10y ago

billforsternz 10y ago

I am 56 and still love programming. I had a wake-up call recently about whether the programming world still loves me however. I am looking for a new challenge and saw an opening for a "C++ cross platform dev" at an interesting (sports stats and league management) startup just down the road from my house. I love sport, love stats and I've been hobby coding a successful C++ chess GUI for years (plus tons of professional C++ experience). Submitted an application through an annoying SaaS job application site. When the submission completed the automated message from the CTO was "thanks we'll get in touch if your experience matches our needs". I had a strange premonition. "I am never going to hear from these guys". Two weeks later, after hearing nothing I thought I'd try something else. After spending an hour to eventually successfully find out the CTO's email (it's one of these cool new companies that makes direct contact more or less impossible) I sent the following email; Subject: Can I Buy you a Coffee? To: $Name, CTO $Company Hi $Name, I am an experienced programmer looking for interesting challenges. $Company is exactly the kind of company I'd like to help out next. I love the idea of taking on the world from $NiceSuburbWhereBothMeAndCompanyLive. I could send you a CV but I don't think that's the best way of us finding out if there is a real opportunity for me to help you. Basically I have heaps of experience in a bunch of important technologies, but much more importantly I am capable of learning new languages and technologies quickly. For example, at the moment I am teaching myself Rust, just for the hell of it, and because I think it is cool and exciting and has a future. I am not a paint by numbers developer. Copying and pasting snippets from Stackoverflow without understanding is not my thing. Deep level understanding and sound software engineering is my thing. I'd love a chance to show you what I can do, and I would definitely consider doing so on an unpaid basis, at least initially. I've had some significant success in my career and these days I don't have to work to make a living. For this reason I could be the ultimately flexible "resource" - for example it's possible I could help out on an occasional basis, without requiring inflated contractors' rates. Basically I am offering something a little bit "out of the box". I don't think either of us has much to lose by having that coffee and opening our minds to the possibilities. Cheers, Bill. I must admit this time I did expect a reply, but no luck this time either. What kind of person would just ignore something like that? I think it might be a generational thing - just ignore emails if you don't want to answer them. They're still advertising that C++ job too. It took me a while to realise that these days cross platform C++ probably means iOS and Android - not Windows, Mac and Linux any more. Still you get a certain amount of experience and you realise there's very little really new under the sun and you can adapt your experience and understanding and learn anything "new" quickly if you need to. End of my bitter rant.

hehheh 10y ago

I'm late 30something and I do not want to be writing code any more. I'm burnt out, thanks to being an Android developer. (Don't do it!) I'm not sure what I'll do instead. I've been reading a bunch of stuff folks have written about the subject, but most people are focused on going in to management or QA or whatever. I think I'd just like "out". My brain ain't what it used to be and I'd rather quit than be fired, if you get my meaning. I don't have an answer yet. I half-joke about becoming an Amazon Flex driver.

jventura 10y ago
> I'm burnt out, thanks to being an Android developer. (Don't do it!) Curious by your answer: something about bad apis on Android, or you got burned by deadlines or boring work?
- hehheh 10y ago
  Whoa sorry about my super late reply here. The APIs are not great. Some of it is down to poor naming, for example: The callback you'd use on a CheckBox is called `OnCheckedChangeListener.onCheckedChanged(view, boolean)` (or something) but it is called whether or not the check state actually changed (e.g. if you call `setChecked(true)` and it's already checked you'll get the callback anyway). This is an issue that plagues the APIs in other places like `OnLayoutChangeListener` and `TextWatcher.OnTextChanged` The fragment lifecycle is incredibly complex to the point that many people advocate against using it -- I'm one of them. It's like someone decided to try to solve every problem ever without asking the real users (devs) what they thought was wrong. But the worst thing about it, bar none, is just how long it takes to build and run an app. We're talking 1.5-2 minutes. Everyone has their pet idea for reducing the build/test cycle but they provide marginal benefits at best and don't offer up concrete examples with concrete data (e.g. "I am running this gradle command for this github project on this computer and am measuring it this way, and here are my results"). I've spent weeks of time, scattered over the years, trying to figure out a way to reduce this to something more reasonable like 5 seconds, but to no avail. My best guess is that other people are working on tiny toy apps or are just building the default project and then proclaiming that I must be mistaken, I must be doing something wrong for my build (of a reasonable sized app) to be as slow as it is.

dwarman 10y ago

69 now. still working. big(gish) co so good insurance, would not have it on my own. Embedded systems.

wwweston 10y ago

> If you want to be a programmer at 55 still you can't ever lose the hunger to know more, know better and know simpler. Once you lose that edge the technology steamroller keeps on coming closer and closer until you wind up flat doing something else for a living. Steamroller is an interesting metaphor. Treadmill is a little more common, thinking about the difference is potentially instructive. Having observed some points between 20something and 55 (if still a good ways off from the latter end), one of the things I've noticed is that I'm no less hungry to know more. I'm possible more hungry -- as my knowledge has grown, I've realized how much more there is that I don't know. But I'm also far more picky and concerned about ROI. I have less patience for learning to keep up with churn; if it's at all possible, I prefer to reserve new learning for new capabilities rather than learning a new way of doing the same thing. Unless it clearly is better and simpler (but if that were so clear, why the proliferation of solutions?)...

mistermumble 10y ago

64 and still coding, although not full-time. 8 years ago I learned Objective-C and physics engines and published a number of mobile apps for IOS. Nowadays I am learning Go, Solidity & Viper and writing blockchain-based dapps. Big fun.