23 ms·

I guess most of HN never were so broke that they can't put themselves in the place of a worker who can receive a tip. Tips go directly to a person. Often a low

I guess most of HN never were so broke that they can't put themselves in the place of a worker who can receive a tip. Tips go directly to a person. Often a low paying or second job. It is about generosity and helping a fellow person. It's not about economic theory or even JUST how they served you. The tip -$1 or $2 or $5 gets the person a gallon of gas. A meal. A cup of coffee. It helps pay off a bill. It is savings for their childs prom dress. It pays for food. It allows the tip receiver to be generous themselves (1). To have extra to tip others. (The largest tippers are or were poor) One of lifes most enjoyable things is to be generous. Tipping shows a lot about the tipper, too. If Tipping to my fellow HNers is only about placing a value on the service given, then I say you don't know the entire story of working a job where tips make a real difference. Ask your next uber driver why they are working. (1) last month I had a fellow give me a $200 tip. The next night a neighbor came over and said her mom just died. She used to live with her and now in a home. Eventually she asked to borrow $20. Well. I don't ever have an extra $20 anymore but I was able to give her $100 because I got the tip.

peatmoss 10y ago
This is an important point. I hate tipping culture, but the solution isn't to not tip when you're a part of a society where certain classes of labor are reliant on tips. My solution is to tip 20% rounding up to the nearest whole dollar. I don't care how horrible service was. On Lyft, I've given lower ratings (safety) and still tipped 20%.
- massysett 10y ago
  My solution is not to use services that have tipped workers. I do not get grocery delivery, in part because I'm not going to tip somebody when I haven't even had a chance to see if all my items were delivered. I visit full-service restaurants less because of tipping. And if tipping becomes expected on Uber, I will stop using it. I don't think this solution helps tipped workers either. But I'm not going to be guilt-tripped into giving people money.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    I really enjoy and strongly prefer going to places where you order at a counter and eat in the dining room at your leisure. I can really relax at those places without feeling hustled and hounded. I, too, am trying to avoid full service restaurants for the most part.
agentgt 10y ago
I'm one of the few that likes tipping for this exact reason. Cash if possible. I guess I like how direct it is (no middle organization to dilute and diffuse) and it seems to make them happy. I feel better, they feel better, all is good. Of course this doesn't work every where (e.g. in France tipping is generally looked down upon). Now being highly persuaded for a tip I don't agree with but this is actually more of a general problem. Just look at the sleaziness of online advertising and email marketing! Hey thanks for you order but can you review this and buy some stuff from us! Buy Buy Buy!
frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
>One of lifes most enjoyable things is to be generous. Then shouldn't Uber be generous and pay their employees more? >Ask your next uber driver why they are working. They're working for money, come on man.
- zht 10y ago
  because 1) uber doesn't classify them as employees, they classify them as contractors, and 2) Uber doesn't give a shit about their drivers.
  - kelnos 10y ago
    That's not an argument for tipping. That's an argument for organized labor action, or finding a different job. Hell, just work for Lyft (ok, yes, I know, Lyft is not available in every market Uber is); I believe they pay comparably, and also have a tipping culture and in-app tipping.
redm 10y ago
Tipping is a lovely thing when YOU decide to do it. The point is no one wants to be forced to tip. When the tip is required or demanded it's no longer "generous," it's something else when you feel obligated.
- seppin 10y ago
  a shakedown, extortion
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Bribery.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
yladiz 10y ago
This is a good point, but I do want to note one caveat, which is that in a lot of restaurants now tips, at least those that aren't in cash, are split between front and back of house staff. This means that even if you tip extra for the purposes of rewarding your waiter/ress for their service, it may not go to them. This does not mean you shouldn't tip extra if the service was great, amazing, etc., but just something to be aware of.
- clairity 10y ago
  the reason for that is it takes the whole team (server, host, line cooks, busser, etc) working in concert to give you good service (timely, tasty, well-prepared food in an enjoyable environment).
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Service is by and large a function of how well a place is managed.
- bradleyjg 10y ago
  I'm not sure why this is a caveat or how it is responsive to the post you are responding to. losteverything's post wasn't about "rewarding your waiter/ress for their service". It was about the disproportionate effect a little extra money can have for someone that's desperately poor. That applies even more so for dishwasher, bussers and line cooks as it does for servers. Pooled tips across both parts of the house are a step forward on a broken system. It is unfortunately very difficult to do legally in NY.
nilkn 10y ago
This sort of post is actually yet another reason why I dislike tipping culture. I'm being guilted/pressured -- and not even by a driver -- into supporting a system in which drivers are underpaid and every customer has to individually think about how they can make up for that. When/if lots of customers start regularly tipping, I fear Uber will just take advantage of the situation to reduce wages even lower -- untenably so. This will end up forcing all drivers to be completely reliant on tips. And once that happens, there's pretty much no going back. This is an opportunity to have a major service that finally does away with tipping in the US. I don't think we should bend over backwards so easily and just give up on that possibility.
- Taylor_OD 10y ago
  This. I use uber over other ride share services and taxis because I know what its actually going to cost up front and I wont be pressured to tip at the end.
- cptskippy 10y ago
  The difficult thing here is that neither of you are wrong.
- sharkmerry 10y ago
  >> into supporting a system in which drivers are underpaid and every customer has to individually think about how they can make up for that. By using Uber and knowing they are underpaying, aren't you contributing as well?
takeda 10y ago
Tipping when mandatory (and this behavior, makes it that way) is also a hidden fee, why not just charge more? If Uber is not paying enough, why not work for someone else? In the end by tipping you I'm essentially subsidizing Uber and enable them to pay you less.
- thatfrenchguy 10y ago
  "why not work for someone else" -> Mostly because they have no choice.
  - JBReefer 10y ago
    Lyft, instacart, courier companies, GrubHub, etc. are all possibilities if you are able to drive for Uber.
  - loco5niner 10y ago
    Throw a rock. You'll likely hit another possible option for employment. (well, not anymore, since you just threw a rock at them).
cprayingmantis 10y ago
I appreciate your point but you're describing charity more than you're describing tipping. Furthermore you make it sound like you're entitled to tips and charity... Which undermines both.
codedokode 10y ago
If someone can afford owning a car they probably are not that poor.
- posterboy 10y ago
  they probably hadn't been, prior to paying for the car.
  - Neliquat 10y ago
    Yup, I know a guy buying a brand new car to uber. He ubered his last nearly free car into the ground and does not realize he is just driving the value out of his car and losing value at the end of the day.
nommm-nommm 10y ago
Give me a break. I've been poor as fuck. I've been unable to afford a cup of coffee. Ive gone hungry some nights. I'm very well off now, but I certainly remember those days of struggle. I still don't want to be guilted into leaving every person I interact with in a day money because their employer doesn't feel like paying them for doing their job. The more you tip someone the less their employers pay them. Wouldn't you prefer a steady paycheck to relying on the kindness of strangers to be able to pay rent? Where does this madness stop? Since you are personally so virtuous, do you also tip the cashier at Walmart every time you buy deodorant? The shelf stocker? Deli meat slicer operator? The person bagging your groceries? McDonald's employee who made your Big Mac? Do you walk into the kitchen to slip a Washington into the cook's pocket? The person at the bodega who made your sandwich? None of those people make much. How about the receptionist at the doctor's office? Your doctor? Your mechanic? Pharmacists? Pharmacy assistant? Bank teller? Theatre attendant? Garbage collector? Police? Mail carrier? How about the adminstrative staff at your office? Do you slip them a few bucks for scheduling your meeting and emailing you the meeting minutes? The cafeteria staff? There's many low paid people who don't interact with the public. Do you mail a check to Amazon's wearhouse for the people who packed your Christmas gifts? What about when people provide customer service over the phone or Internet? So you reply to emails you get with your credit card number to tip the email sender? >The largest tippers are or were poor This isn't even remotely true, people use tipping to signal their power and wealth. It's a social signal. It's classist. It is not a bunch of poor people passing around the same $5 to each other. >One of lifes most enjoyable things is to be generous. I don't find being guilted into paying other people's wages to be either generous or enjoyable. I don't find turning every interaction into a business dealing to be enjoyable. I don't find living in a society where people won't do their job without not-so-subtile bribes enjoyable or something to strive for. Do you want to live in a society where it's ever increasing amounts of customer extortion over legitimate customer service? I don't think highly of people who enjoy throwing coins at those "below" them and enjoy holding that power over them. The people who enjoy pulling out a $20 to "make sure they are taken care of" that day are not generous. I have some unkind words to describe such people. Oh, by the way, I intend to leave my entire estate to charity. I am not an unkind or stingy person.
dangsuckscunt 10y ago
This site is full of spoiled little shits. These people don't have empathy but will yell at you for not having any. Be careful. Talking about tips is a good way to make dang get grumpy
briandear 10y ago
I really don't care about their story. I worked for about a dozen restaurants, bars and clubs back in the day. I lived in some of the shittiest places imaginable (in the US,) including 3 weeks in my car parked outside the low-rent, skank-infested strip club at which I DJed. I get it; life is hard. However, tipping isn't a "charity surcharge" -- it's to reward service that went beyond the service you agreed to buy. A gardener watering my plants doesn't get a tip. A gardener helping find an escaped dog -- definitely. I donate to charities I care about. I pay my taxes. I ensure the team I have working for me now gets paid before I do. I definitely don't need to be admonished that because I am a white guy that makes a bit of money now that somehow I don't understand the plight of those in service industries. The great majority of people on HN aren't Stanford grads born with silver spoons -- nearly all of us worked our asses off to get the luxury of writing code or making companies. Regardless of all that the implicit requirement that we tip as a form of charity is nonsense. The reason low wage people don't have a 'living wage' is because the supply of their labor is greater than the demand. Nothing will change that unless we implement a Soviet economy. Even Sweden has a poverty rate of 7% -- the U.K. is at 10% -- Spain is at 15%, France is at 14%. The idea that "living wages" or tipping somehow makes any difference in poverty is not supported by facts. If we want to really help the poor, we should be supporting a culture of entrepreneurial freedom instead of excessive regulation. Some lady wants to sell tamales out of her house -- legally she can't do it without a health inspection and a permit. So someone that could have the means to start a small business with just a few dollars and some labor can't do it because of all of the barriers to entry. Some guy wants to cut hair on a street corner -- he can't do it without a cosmetology license. Some family wants to use the family car to pick up people at the airport -- they can't do it without permits, licenses or approvals. Promoting micro-entrepreneurism would have a far bigger impact that tipping an Uber driver $10. But the same people that love to virtue-signal often happen to be the same kind of people that support increased government regulation in all aspects of society. We're so busy protecting people from themselves that we stifle any ambitions they might have to attempt to improve their lot.
- losteverything 10y ago
  I'm talking about giving $2 to one person. A 10 second act
kdamken 10y ago
Tipping is the worst possible thing for everyone involved. Your employer should be paying you a living wage, not expecting the customers to do so with tips. I highly recommend you check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k Tipping doesn't really say much about a person other than how easily they fall for societal pressure and guilt.
kelnos 10y ago
I'm sympathetic, because you're not wrong. But those of us on the other side of the argument aren't wrong either. > The tip -$1 or $2 or $5 gets the person a gallon of gas. A meal. A cup of coffee. It helps pay off a bill. It is savings for their childs prom dress. It pays for food. I am not your employer; it should not be my job to figure out what is required to pay you a living wage. Your employer should be doing that. It sucks that they aren't. I wish I could fix that. > One of lifes most enjoyable things is to be generous. That's just, like, your opinion, man. And if it's so enjoyable to be generous, why isn't Uber enjoying themselves by paying drivers more? Why is it my responsibility as a rider to fill in this gap? But yeah, I do agree that it's enjoyable to be generous. But you know what's not enjoyable? Being subject to guilt and societal pressure to tip. "Being generous" is not "being generous" unless it's completely voluntary. Tipping is not. I donate to charitable organizations not because they ask me to or because I feel pressure to do so, but because they further causes I believe in and want to support. That generosity is something I enjoy. Tipping just makes me feel anxious and like I'm getting ripped off by having (yes, having) to pay more than the advertised price.

peatmoss 10y ago

This is an important point. I hate tipping culture, but the solution isn't to not tip when you're a part of a society where certain classes of labor are reliant on tips. My solution is to tip 20% rounding up to the nearest whole dollar. I don't care how horrible service was. On Lyft, I've given lower ratings (safety) and still tipped 20%.

massysett 10y ago
My solution is not to use services that have tipped workers. I do not get grocery delivery, in part because I'm not going to tip somebody when I haven't even had a chance to see if all my items were delivered. I visit full-service restaurants less because of tipping. And if tipping becomes expected on Uber, I will stop using it. I don't think this solution helps tipped workers either. But I'm not going to be guilt-tripped into giving people money.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  I really enjoy and strongly prefer going to places where you order at a counter and eat in the dining room at your leisure. I can really relax at those places without feeling hustled and hounded. I, too, am trying to avoid full service restaurants for the most part.

agentgt 10y ago

I'm one of the few that likes tipping for this exact reason. Cash if possible. I guess I like how direct it is (no middle organization to dilute and diffuse) and it seems to make them happy. I feel better, they feel better, all is good. Of course this doesn't work every where (e.g. in France tipping is generally looked down upon). Now being highly persuaded for a tip I don't agree with but this is actually more of a general problem. Just look at the sleaziness of online advertising and email marketing! Hey thanks for you order but can you review this and buy some stuff from us! Buy Buy Buy!

frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago

>One of lifes most enjoyable things is to be generous. Then shouldn't Uber be generous and pay their employees more? >Ask your next uber driver why they are working. They're working for money, come on man.

zht 10y ago
because 1) uber doesn't classify them as employees, they classify them as contractors, and 2) Uber doesn't give a shit about their drivers.
- kelnos 10y ago
  That's not an argument for tipping. That's an argument for organized labor action, or finding a different job. Hell, just work for Lyft (ok, yes, I know, Lyft is not available in every market Uber is); I believe they pay comparably, and also have a tipping culture and in-app tipping.

redm 10y ago

Tipping is a lovely thing when YOU decide to do it. The point is no one wants to be forced to tip. When the tip is required or demanded it's no longer "generous," it's something else when you feel obligated.

seppin 10y ago
a shakedown, extortion
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Bribery.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

yladiz 10y ago

This is a good point, but I do want to note one caveat, which is that in a lot of restaurants now tips, at least those that aren't in cash, are split between front and back of house staff. This means that even if you tip extra for the purposes of rewarding your waiter/ress for their service, it may not go to them. This does not mean you shouldn't tip extra if the service was great, amazing, etc., but just something to be aware of.

clairity 10y ago
the reason for that is it takes the whole team (server, host, line cooks, busser, etc) working in concert to give you good service (timely, tasty, well-prepared food in an enjoyable environment).
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Service is by and large a function of how well a place is managed.
bradleyjg 10y ago
I'm not sure why this is a caveat or how it is responsive to the post you are responding to. losteverything's post wasn't about "rewarding your waiter/ress for their service". It was about the disproportionate effect a little extra money can have for someone that's desperately poor. That applies even more so for dishwasher, bussers and line cooks as it does for servers. Pooled tips across both parts of the house are a step forward on a broken system. It is unfortunately very difficult to do legally in NY.

nilkn 10y ago

This sort of post is actually yet another reason why I dislike tipping culture. I'm being guilted/pressured -- and not even by a driver -- into supporting a system in which drivers are underpaid and every customer has to individually think about how they can make up for that. When/if lots of customers start regularly tipping, I fear Uber will just take advantage of the situation to reduce wages even lower -- untenably so. This will end up forcing all drivers to be completely reliant on tips. And once that happens, there's pretty much no going back. This is an opportunity to have a major service that finally does away with tipping in the US. I don't think we should bend over backwards so easily and just give up on that possibility.

Taylor_OD 10y ago
This. I use uber over other ride share services and taxis because I know what its actually going to cost up front and I wont be pressured to tip at the end.
cptskippy 10y ago
The difficult thing here is that neither of you are wrong.
sharkmerry 10y ago
>> into supporting a system in which drivers are underpaid and every customer has to individually think about how they can make up for that. By using Uber and knowing they are underpaying, aren't you contributing as well?

takeda 10y ago

Tipping when mandatory (and this behavior, makes it that way) is also a hidden fee, why not just charge more? If Uber is not paying enough, why not work for someone else? In the end by tipping you I'm essentially subsidizing Uber and enable them to pay you less.

thatfrenchguy 10y ago
"why not work for someone else" -> Mostly because they have no choice.
- JBReefer 10y ago
  Lyft, instacart, courier companies, GrubHub, etc. are all possibilities if you are able to drive for Uber.
- loco5niner 10y ago
  Throw a rock. You'll likely hit another possible option for employment. (well, not anymore, since you just threw a rock at them).

cprayingmantis 10y ago

I appreciate your point but you're describing charity more than you're describing tipping. Furthermore you make it sound like you're entitled to tips and charity... Which undermines both.

codedokode 10y ago

If someone can afford owning a car they probably are not that poor.

posterboy 10y ago
they probably hadn't been, prior to paying for the car.
- Neliquat 10y ago
  Yup, I know a guy buying a brand new car to uber. He ubered his last nearly free car into the ground and does not realize he is just driving the value out of his car and losing value at the end of the day.

nommm-nommm 10y ago

Give me a break. I've been poor as fuck. I've been unable to afford a cup of coffee. Ive gone hungry some nights. I'm very well off now, but I certainly remember those days of struggle. I still don't want to be guilted into leaving every person I interact with in a day money because their employer doesn't feel like paying them for doing their job. The more you tip someone the less their employers pay them. Wouldn't you prefer a steady paycheck to relying on the kindness of strangers to be able to pay rent? Where does this madness stop? Since you are personally so virtuous, do you also tip the cashier at Walmart every time you buy deodorant? The shelf stocker? Deli meat slicer operator? The person bagging your groceries? McDonald's employee who made your Big Mac? Do you walk into the kitchen to slip a Washington into the cook's pocket? The person at the bodega who made your sandwich? None of those people make much. How about the receptionist at the doctor's office? Your doctor? Your mechanic? Pharmacists? Pharmacy assistant? Bank teller? Theatre attendant? Garbage collector? Police? Mail carrier? How about the adminstrative staff at your office? Do you slip them a few bucks for scheduling your meeting and emailing you the meeting minutes? The cafeteria staff? There's many low paid people who don't interact with the public. Do you mail a check to Amazon's wearhouse for the people who packed your Christmas gifts? What about when people provide customer service over the phone or Internet? So you reply to emails you get with your credit card number to tip the email sender? >The largest tippers are or were poor This isn't even remotely true, people use tipping to signal their power and wealth. It's a social signal. It's classist. It is not a bunch of poor people passing around the same $5 to each other. >One of lifes most enjoyable things is to be generous. I don't find being guilted into paying other people's wages to be either generous or enjoyable. I don't find turning every interaction into a business dealing to be enjoyable. I don't find living in a society where people won't do their job without not-so-subtile bribes enjoyable or something to strive for. Do you want to live in a society where it's ever increasing amounts of customer extortion over legitimate customer service? I don't think highly of people who enjoy throwing coins at those "below" them and enjoy holding that power over them. The people who enjoy pulling out a $20 to "make sure they are taken care of" that day are not generous. I have some unkind words to describe such people. Oh, by the way, I intend to leave my entire estate to charity. I am not an unkind or stingy person.

dangsuckscunt 10y ago

This site is full of spoiled little shits. These people don't have empathy but will yell at you for not having any. Be careful. Talking about tips is a good way to make dang get grumpy

briandear 10y ago

I really don't care about their story. I worked for about a dozen restaurants, bars and clubs back in the day. I lived in some of the shittiest places imaginable (in the US,) including 3 weeks in my car parked outside the low-rent, skank-infested strip club at which I DJed. I get it; life is hard. However, tipping isn't a "charity surcharge" -- it's to reward service that went beyond the service you agreed to buy. A gardener watering my plants doesn't get a tip. A gardener helping find an escaped dog -- definitely. I donate to charities I care about. I pay my taxes. I ensure the team I have working for me now gets paid before I do. I definitely don't need to be admonished that because I am a white guy that makes a bit of money now that somehow I don't understand the plight of those in service industries. The great majority of people on HN aren't Stanford grads born with silver spoons -- nearly all of us worked our asses off to get the luxury of writing code or making companies. Regardless of all that the implicit requirement that we tip as a form of charity is nonsense. The reason low wage people don't have a 'living wage' is because the supply of their labor is greater than the demand. Nothing will change that unless we implement a Soviet economy. Even Sweden has a poverty rate of 7% -- the U.K. is at 10% -- Spain is at 15%, France is at 14%. The idea that "living wages" or tipping somehow makes any difference in poverty is not supported by facts. If we want to really help the poor, we should be supporting a culture of entrepreneurial freedom instead of excessive regulation. Some lady wants to sell tamales out of her house -- legally she can't do it without a health inspection and a permit. So someone that could have the means to start a small business with just a few dollars and some labor can't do it because of all of the barriers to entry. Some guy wants to cut hair on a street corner -- he can't do it without a cosmetology license. Some family wants to use the family car to pick up people at the airport -- they can't do it without permits, licenses or approvals. Promoting micro-entrepreneurism would have a far bigger impact that tipping an Uber driver $10. But the same people that love to virtue-signal often happen to be the same kind of people that support increased government regulation in all aspects of society. We're so busy protecting people from themselves that we stifle any ambitions they might have to attempt to improve their lot.

losteverything 10y ago
I'm talking about giving $2 to one person. A 10 second act

kdamken 10y ago

Tipping is the worst possible thing for everyone involved. Your employer should be paying you a living wage, not expecting the customers to do so with tips. I highly recommend you check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k Tipping doesn't really say much about a person other than how easily they fall for societal pressure and guilt.

kelnos 10y ago

I'm sympathetic, because you're not wrong. But those of us on the other side of the argument aren't wrong either. > The tip -$1 or $2 or $5 gets the person a gallon of gas. A meal. A cup of coffee. It helps pay off a bill. It is savings for their childs prom dress. It pays for food. I am not your employer; it should not be my job to figure out what is required to pay you a living wage. Your employer should be doing that. It sucks that they aren't. I wish I could fix that. > One of lifes most enjoyable things is to be generous. That's just, like, your opinion, man. And if it's so enjoyable to be generous, why isn't Uber enjoying themselves by paying drivers more? Why is it my responsibility as a rider to fill in this gap? But yeah, I do agree that it's enjoyable to be generous. But you know what's not enjoyable? Being subject to guilt and societal pressure to tip. "Being generous" is not "being generous" unless it's completely voluntary. Tipping is not. I donate to charitable organizations not because they ask me to or because I feel pressure to do so, but because they further causes I believe in and want to support. That generosity is something I enjoy. Tipping just makes me feel anxious and like I'm getting ripped off by having (yes, having) to pay more than the advertised price.