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The lead the US has had in science/engineering/technology over the past 70+ years is in no small part due to the massive brain drain from Europe, and the rest o

• refurb 10y ago
  If the US's new shiny fascist regime keeps progressing at this pace...the best thing countries like China could do right now is heavily fund things such as foreign PhD students. Wait, so you're saying everyone is leaving fascist USA, but China will be the beneficiary of that?
  • sqeaky 10y ago
    People don't always act rationally, and some people perceive the US to be worse than China.
    • 67726e 10y ago
      > some people perceive the US to be worse than China. Those people are dangerously ignorant.
      • verelo 10y ago
        While I wouldn't say that the US is worse than China, I think your statement is just as dangerous (possibly more).
        • deleted 10y ago
          [deleted]
        • 67726e 10y ago
          How so?
          • cderwin 10y ago
            Not parent, but it seems irresponsible to call someone that is ignorant about the domestic policies of a country half the world away "dangerous." It's not dangerous until national policy is based on that ignorance, which is several as of yet uncrossed bridges farther than even a majority of Americans being ignorant of Chinese domestic policy. That said, parent is just as wrong to call the original comment "dangerous" as well.
            • verelo 10y ago
              You have to be joking? My point is that ignorance is dangerous.
      • sqeaky 10y ago
        Why do you say that? I did not downvote you. And would be interested real and objective criteria for assessing which country is "worse" ethically or "worse" by some criteria you select.
        • am_i_down 10y ago
          What is a criteria in which China is "better" ethically or "better" by some criteria you select? I can think of none.
  • GuiA 10y ago
    You don't need everyone to be leaving it, you just need the new generations of scientists/entrepreneurs/etc to go somewhere else. And if they can't get in the US, well that's an easy call.
  • wfo 10y ago
    Perhaps, if funding to research is cut in the US via Trump policies (or even remains small as is currently the case) and China jumps on this opportunity to snatch the world's best talent, the question for brilliant young students will be China, a fascist regime where you are funded, or the US, a slightly less fascist regime where you are not funded and face hate crime, discrimination, and constant threats to your ability to remain due to your immigration status. PhDs take a long time; do you want to commit 5+ years of your life to being in a place whose leaders are psychotic and don't want you around? Remember, if you are forced to quit your PhD program early, you don't get one and you have to start over somewhere else. And the time you've spent you're being paid nothing. Stability is key when you're making decisions like that, and it's something we've lost here inarguably in a big way.
    • aaron-lebo 10y ago
      So why do so many Chinese students chose to come to the US for college? Do they not know that China is better? To call the US a slightly less fascist regime than China is wrong. Go read up on human rights violations in China some time. Other areas of concern include the lack of legal recognition of human rights and the lack of an independent judiciary, rule of law, and due process. Further issues raised in regard to human rights include the severe lack of worker's rights (in particular the hukou system which restricts migrant labourers' freedom of movement), the absence of independent labour unions (which have since been changing[3]), and allegations of discrimination against rural workers and ethnic minorities, as well as the lack of religious freedom – rights groups have highlighted repression of the Christian,[4][5][6][7][8][9] Tibetan Buddhist, and Falun Gong religious groups. Some Chinese activist groups are trying to expand these freedoms, including Human Rights in China, Chinese Human Rights Defenders, and the China Human Rights Lawyers Concern Group. Chinese human rights attorneys who take on cases related to these issues, however, often face harassment, disbarment, and arrest.[10][11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China The gap between the US and China in most measures of freedom and business rights is absolutely massive and isn't going to shift because six Muslim countries have restricted immigration. Maybe see how China treats Muslims in the western part of the country?
  • wpietri 10y ago
    > Wait, so you're saying everyone is leaving fascist USA, but China will be the beneficiary of that? In recent years, the US has turned noticeably anti-science, anti-immigrant, anti-elite, and anti-government-support-of-almost-everything, including education, health care, the arts, science, and infrastructure. Whereas China has been energetic about pursuing global leadership in a variety of areas, and they're not shy about spending. It would not shock me at all to see China take advantage of the US's turn to appeal to bright foreigners who just want to do their thing. The US previously did well because we were welcoming to immigrants and serious about having world-class universities doing world-class research. If we throw away our advantages and China makes up its deficits, why wouldn't more talent pick China?
    • xiaoma 10y ago
      >" the US has turned noticeably anti-science, anti-immigrant..." The US gives grants citizenship to more immigrants each month than the PRC has in its entire history. Another interesting statistic is the total number of people the PRC has granted permanent residency to ever. It's definitely worth googling.
      • kbenson 10y ago
        Useful numbers, but in a discussion about what could happen, ultimately less informative than they seem. The U.S. can drastically reduce the citizenships they award, and China can start awarding permanent residencies or citizenship. That is one aspect of what China capitalizing on this might mean. China has shown itself willing to change to achieve what it wants.
        • xiaoma 10y ago
          Chinese concepts of race and nationality are hopelessly intertwined and Chinese nationalism has been increasing, not decreasing, over the past generation. In recent times, the very best chance of China becoming open—even in comparison to its neighbors—was in the late 80s... and we all know how that ended. The climate hasn't gotten close to being that tolerant since, and in the past five years, political control has tightened considerably. Of course it is possible to reverse course and open up, but it would take quite a bit of time to change in the ways you're suggesting.
  • ebola1717 10y ago
    Consider that a lot of the talent the US attracts is from China, and they're leaving for economic rather than political reasons. If opportunities open up at home, and the US's standing erodes, that can swing a lot of momentum in their favor. Given the recent spikes in violence against Indian-Americans and tightening of immigration policies as a whole, Indian immigrants might also move to China rather than the US.
    • pizzetta 10y ago
      Unsure how things are now btwn China and India, but they have not always been the best of friends and often compete against one another, so it remains to be seen if they view china as a viable option over their own country.
    • throwahjh 10y ago
      China and India are also deeply racist. I'm Indian, and I've been to China. If you're brown skinned in China, you are treated far worse than you are in the US. Likewise, if you're Chinese (or look Chinese - people from the North East of India), most of India treats you very badly. And if you're a woman with Chinese features.. well let's just say that there's a (deeply pejorative) term for that in India. In both countries, if you're white (occidental), you'll be treated MUCH MUCH better than a darker skinned person. And if you're black.. it's even worse. So it's not easy for Indians to move to China, or for a Chinese person to move to India. Of course moving back to your own country of origin is (usually) easier.
  • throwaway729 10y ago
    China doesn't have to be more free. They just have to make life comparatively comfortable for useful people.
  • echevil 10y ago
    Have no fear. Immigrating to China is basically mission impossible for people with no existing ties.
• monksy 10y ago
  Comment Rating: 1/10: Just another Political post > The lead the US has had in science/engineering/technology over the past 70+ years is in no small part due to the massive brain drain from Europe, and the rest of the world, due to fascist regimes. Awesome! I was curious about hearing more about this. > If the US's new shiny fascist regime keeps progressing at this pace, You're making a claim that is fairly recent and that is intentionally inflammatory. Then you're making a comparison to someone and the party that is new to older established negatively impacting politics. If something is going on at the moment that is relevant, name the specific thing. Trying to blame the whole group now is just silly pandering. ---- Why did you feel that it was necessary to inject political commentary into this? I'm really tired of hearing armchair politicians or regurgitation of political pundits. This is hacker news not r/Politics.
  • JetSpiegel 10y ago
    >>Fascist Regimes in Europe > Awesome! >>US's new shiny fascist regime > inflammatory > Political Commentary
  • parasubvert 10y ago
    > Why did you feel that it was necessary to inject political commentary into this? Because politics, especially what's happening now, affects all of our lives? Hacker News talks about politics all the time, just look at Bitcoin or Snowden threads.
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  • untog 10y ago
    > Why did you feel that it was necessary to inject political commentary into this? The notion that we can remove politics from all the discussions we have is just silly. Especially when we're discussing immigration, something controlled by the governments we elect and the politicians that represent us. I'm not arguing that the OP's post was great and insightful ("fascist" is indeed not helpful to use without elaboration) but neither can we say "keep the politics to /r/politics please".
• aaron-lebo 10y ago
  Where are people gonna go? There's no evidence that China wants to open up like that.
  • pm90 10y ago
    Canada, or any of the Immigrant friendly European countries. In fact, I wonder if harsh immigration policies will see a resurgence of EU as the scientific center of the world...provided it survives through Brexit and the Greek debt crises.
• pvg 10y ago
  Which particular fascist regimes do you have in mind? In news from Spain, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
  • pm90 10y ago
    Fascism, much like Nazism is not restricted to the regime/party that originated them. It is now generally used to label all groups that show similar attributes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
    • pvg 10y ago
      That helpful wikipedia link is notably short on 'European fascist regimes of the last 70 years'.
• davidw 10y ago
  "Where to next"? I'm stumped, myself. Europe doesn't look very good right now. Australia? Or just hang out someplace nice like Chile and hope things blow over?
  • javajosh 10y ago
    The USA is a vast place, actually composed of a diverse collection of communities. Thanks to Federalism, there is still some diversity within the states, and even local communities can be quite different. Consider 4 cities: Fergeson MO, Santa Monica CA, Chicago IL, Las Vegas NV. CA is currently considering universal healthcare, like HI has. It has also stated firm resistance to Trump's policies. NV has no state income tax. Some states have no DMV registration fees. Other states give out oil money (AK). E.g. the US is probably still the best place to be, just in a different part of it.
    • davidw 10y ago
      We're actually in Bend, Oregon right now and pretty happy. I'm ... pretty nervous about how things might go, though.
      • javajosh 10y ago
        Consider that Trump actually can't do much. The Executive branch has the most visible power is at border crossings, particularly at airports. It's the fundamental power of group leadership (ownership?): "Who's in, and who's out." Trump is intoxicated on the prospect of wielding that power. "How things might go". Hmm. There are three ways things could go rotten. Some all or none could happen: a) Muslim registration, internment, expulsion, b) "Trump resistance" is redefined as "treason" and the NSA and FBI given full reign to detect, disrupt, and prosecute individuals based on digital evidence (or no evidence), c) new war, or multiple wars, started purely because it's one of Trump's biggest powers as Commander-in-Chief (although it shouldn't be, since Congress is supposed to be the only part of government that can declare war). What disgusts (and frankly, surprises) me is the number of Americans who would shrug (or cheer) at all of these outcomes. Sorry, I was going to argue that you're better off staying, and fighting, but anyone of good conscience has got to start thinking of themselves as Jews in Germany in 1936. Your conscience won't let you shut up, and your talk will get you in trouble. New Zealand is nice.
• warrenm 10y ago
  https://www.wsj.com/articles/beijing-toughens-its-internet-stance-1488990071?mod=e2twd https://www.wsj.com/articles/beijing-toughens-its-internet-s...
• MrZongle2 10y ago
  "...fascist regime..." Yes, the fascist regime everybody is so terrified of that they don't hesitate to criticize it in public.
• khuey 10y ago
  > People also seem to get stuck on "China" in my comment. If that makes you unhappy, replace that word with Brazil, Japan, Singapore, Estonia, whatever you want... the point is, viewed under the "startup lens", this new administration makes the dominance of the US in STEM/entrepreneurship ripe for disruption by a more nimble, flexible entity. The problem is that for various reasons, none of those are credible alternatives. One of the things keeping US dominance of science/engineering/technology going is that there's no place quite like it.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• dang 10y ago
  Would you mind not taking HN threads straight into political flamewar? The mess you set off is totally not in the spirit of this site, and the problems can be traced back to how you posted. Comments on HN need to get more civil and substantive, not less, as the topic gets more divisive. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13830700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13830700 and marked it off-topic.
  • GuiA 10y ago
    Are we reading the same comments? I'm seeing a large number of people commenting on how they feel the various policies the current administration is enacting will affect STEM funding and research in the US in the future, and how this fits within the global context. I'm not sure where you see incivility - are any of the posters in the child comments insulting each other? I'm not sure where you see lack of substance - posts in the child comments are using past historical events, political analysis, and personal experiences to discuss current ones. Maybe you're upset by the use of the word "fascist", but that's hard to avoid when the current government is discriminating against legal citizens purely based on their religion/skin color, or the president insinuated the assassination of his political opponents.