14 ms·

Uber has a law firm investigating me – Susan Fowler

277 points by abduhl 10y ago

Neliquat 10y ago
It seems to me, that any decent Law firm would have told her not to tweet about it imho. /ianal
- theossuary 10y ago
  It doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. If they're investigating her to mount a smear campaign, getting out in front of it sounds like a good idea. But I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know?
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  Trying a case via the media to push a large company into a settlement is hardly a new strategy, especially with a company like Uber that's getting large amounts of bad PR.
  - kartan 10y ago
    > that's getting large amounts of bad PR. Do you mean that is caught doing a lot of nasty stuff? The company has problems, it pushes against workers rights, it leaves towns that don't bow to their business tactics, it is sexist, etc. The "bad PR" is the symptom not the problem. Their actions are the problem.
    - striking 10y ago
      The actions led to the bad PR. Without the bad PR, she wouldn't have spoken up on Twitter about it. I think we're all in agreement except in wording.
    - ceejayoz 10y ago
      It's very well deserved bad PR, yes.
- kawera 10y ago
  Care to elaborate?
- viggity 10y ago
  that, or they're giving her a sweetheart deal (i.e. low/no fee) because her case is high profile and they can write it off as an advertising expense.
- westbywest 10y ago
  Under other circumstances I'd agree this is poor strategy w/r/t preparing for possible future legal defense. Detail here may be that Fowler may soon find herself gagged from disclosing further details, especially if surviving terms in her employment contract with Uber allow for it.
  - zekevermillion 10y ago
    If Uber tries to use employee covenants to silence Ms. Fowler, what do you think the reaction is going to be? This is just the beginning. If the problems are as systemic as alleged by Ms. Fowler, the litigation will be working its way through courts for years to come.
    - joering2 10y ago
      It has to be this bad or worse! You dont hire ex attorney general who is corrupted on record (currently works for clients that he initally was investigating as GA and of course never got anywhere) if you dont need a player that has "get free from jail" card.
      - zekevermillion 10y ago
        There does not appear to be genuine contrition, that is for sure...
- zekevermillion 10y ago
  Disagree. Speaking up about Uber's conduct is a personal risk that Ms. Fowler has apparently decided to take, perhaps for reasons of personal integrity. A good lawyer would advise her of the scope and magnitude of risk, and then support her if she chooses to run that risk.
- fictioncircle 10y ago
  Under normal circumstances, yes. However, in this case, it is already largely public and making Uber look the villain is a viable strategy given that Uber likely is the villain.
- noonespecial 10y ago
  You are right. A lawyer's job is to minimize your legal risk. The least risky thing to do is to keep silent. That's what he'll reliably tell you to do. It's your job to decide how much risk you are willing to take to speak out. Some fights are worth fighting.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
mikestew 10y ago
Umm, okay. I would fully expect this. Ms. Fowler seems to be a large liability for Uber. I don't find it unreasonable that "Uber has a law firm investigating <her>", if for no other reason than to find what she knew and when she knew it (or something along those lines), were she to sue what are the potential ramifications, et. al. IOW, I'm not going to run in circles over a seven word tweet that could mean about anything.
- thedz 10y ago
  > IOW, I'm not going to run in circles over a seven word tweet that could mean about anything. It's not a 7 word tweet. Full text of linked tweet: "Uber names/blames me for account deletes, and has a different law firm -not Holders - investigating me. I have hired" The "names/blames for account deletes" is kinda weird. In either case, the title of this submission is a strict paraphrasing (despite being in quotes) of an already short tweet, which is pretty meh.
- bigethan 10y ago
  The seven words in the HN title are not the tweet. Part of the actual tweet is: "Uber names/blames me for account deletes" That's a much more aggressive approach than the defensive reasoning you're conjuring out of thin air.
  - joering2 10y ago
    By the way - what a stupid logic they apply. Similarily it would be fine to say that I blame the cop for losing my job because he pulled me over drunk and now I cannot drive to my work with suspended DL.
  - mikestew 10y ago
    The seven words in the HN title are not the tweet. Then it shouldn't have been in quotes (I see that it's since been changed).
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- 10y ago
AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
Not surprising. Depressing, but not at all surprising.
- asdfasdf32r3 10y ago
  Why is it depressing? The company needs to know where it stands. This tweet could mean anything from her being stalked to legal representatives taking pre-deposition interviews. While it seems pretty cut and dried to me that Uber is in the wrong, don't they have the responsibility and the right to investigate for themselves?
  - snowwrestler 10y ago
    Holder is supposedly investigating the situation for Uber. A 2nd firm looking at Fowler specifically would imply a different (addl) strategy--like litigation against her personally, or a PR campaign to smear her.
tabeth 10y ago
I'm pretty clueless about the law, but I don't really see what case Uber has against her. How could they prove that she's the one that resulted in account deletions? Even if you suppose she's the one to blame, if what she claimed is true then wouldn't their point be moot?
- fictioncircle 10y ago
  https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2017/02/27/it-admin-was-authorized-to-trash-employers-network-he-says/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2017/02/27/it-admin-was-aut... They are probably thinking they can go that route.
alphonsegaston 10y ago
I had an extended exchange with an Uber employee the other day, in which he steadfastly refused to believe that Uber was going after Fowler after the initial reports of this. Despite countless examples of this kind of behavior in the past, he kept insisting that everything was only "alleged" or "unverified." I'm not sure what kind of cargo cult they have going on over there, but it sure is effective at getting people to see past the most obvious examples of straight up awfulness. Explains a lot about what happened to Susan.
- dllthomas 10y ago
  I steadfastly refused to expect, pending more data, investigation with intent to discredit, disparage, or defame Susan Fowler. This is still unclear but I certainly agree that it is very worrying. You can bet that we'll be asking tough questions about it on Tuesday. As an aside, I believe you simply meant "cult" - "cargo cult" is specifically to do with performing actions superficially resembling things that work elsewhere without understanding (or replicating) the why of it. Your accusation, of persisting in believing bizarre things in the face of evidence, is more general.
  - alphonsegaston 10y ago
    Hey, thanks for commenting on this. I respect that you'll stand up internally against any attempt to go after Susan. Apologies for not giving you more credit in my original comment. I used cargo cult because I expect that a lot of the willingness to dismiss this behavior is out of expectation of a maybe-never-to-be-delivered gift from the "IPO Gods." Just to be clear, I'm not ascribing this to you, but I've had other conversations with Uber employees who were explicitly cynical in their stance, after this fashion.
    - dllthomas 10y ago
      Thanks!
  - logfromblammo 10y ago
    An alternate idiom that avoids the "cult" versus "cargo cult" confusion would be "I don't know what's in their [corporate] Kool-Aid over there...". That evokes the image of Jim Jones People's Temple Jonestown mass murder-suicide, using poisoned Flavor Aid beverage mix. In a corporate context, "drinking the Kool-Aid" means to uncritically embrace the corporate culture, even if it is actually toxic. Anecdotally, companies that try to impress a culture upon their employees always do it to obscure the otherwise obvious shortcomings in the business itself. Without fail, it is continuously reinforced propaganda, designed to create an irrational emotional attachment to the workplace. Subtler versions use "we" or "us" to refer to the employee labor, rather than the owners and managers. Everyone does it to some extent, and once you can see the fnords, you can't stop seeing them. The literal cargo cultists were south Pacific islanders that saw temporary military airfields constructed in World War 2, and planes filled with valuable cargo landing on them or making airdrops, correlated the two, and then built their own mock airfields so that the goods would once again rain down from the sky. The business of running a working airfield was transformed into a religious ritual to call down manna from heaven. In a modern figurative sense, "cargo culting" is something like instituting a daily stand-up meeting when your development process is not actually Agile Manifesto compatible. While "cult" is in a literal sense nothing more than a group with a common religion, the word has acquired a derogatory shading that implies practices hostile and predatory to the membership, secrecy, and insularity. If your religion severely punishes heterodoxy or apostasy, attempts to supplant or replace your supportive institutions such as family, friends, and government, and encourages you to liquidate your own wealth and transfer it to the religious leadership, it will probably be referred to by non-members and the news media as a cult. Some businesses employ cult-like practices, and often replace the direct tithing with less obvious schemes, such as multilevel marketing or sweatshop labor.
thedz 10y ago
The title of this submission is a strict paraphrasing (despite being in quotes) of an already short tweet, which is pretty meh. The full tweet is: "Uber names/blames me for account deletes, and has a different law firm -not Holders - investigating me. I have hired" "Uber names/blames me for account deletes" is a pretty bold claim, and doesn't feel like a routine investigation.
- jefftchan 10y ago
  For context, "Names/blames me for account deletes" is probably related to: http://www.complex.com/life/2017/02/uber-users-deleting-app-sexual-harassment-allegations-company-hurting http://www.complex.com/life/2017/02/uber-users-deleting-app-... https://twitter.com/FamousCeleb/status/834567373214539776/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/FamousCeleb/status/834567373214539776/ph...
  - chaser7016 10y ago
    Why does a user have to email a company to delete their account? How is that consumer friendly, especially after Uber lets your account get hacked/1k stolen! This happened to me (I never used Uber.. signed up and forgot about it) and in my research I found out they know about the hacks and their PR message is its the user's fault for using a lame password. What a horrible company.. run by the worst vile, corrupt, arrogant sociopaths ever!
    - mattieuga 10y ago
      To be fair here, having to send an email to delete your account is true of the vast majority of companies.
      - chaser7016 10y ago
        It is? Who else does this so I can avoid them! It's an internet service .. I don't need to send an email to Facebook, twitter, etc to have my account canceled. Uber should be no different unless there's a pending charge then tell the user you can cancel after payment has cleared ...not wait until we feel like emailing you to handle your request because WE WANT TO LOCK YOU IN! I was and am still furious that I was unable to cancel my phantom Uber account immediately after my bank account got hacked. Any web service following this scheme is not doing it for their users but for themselves!!!
rrggrr 10y ago
Pro tip for whistleblowers: Hire an attorney before you blow the whistle, and listen to their advice. Preferably an attorney who has litigated against your employer in the past. If you simply must write a diatribe beforehand then stick the facts of the issue at-hand (eg. discrimination) and avoid the temptation to author a tell all. Even the best future employers will be given pause upon learning of your tell all blog post, regardless of the rock solid merits. In short: Don't let you feelings get in the way of your desired result.
- tonmoy 10y ago
  And people were asking why these women just don't sue. It seems people need to be careful and think twice even when writing a blog post let alone sue.
  - xiphias 10y ago
    If you are refering to me, I asked why she doesn't go to a lawyer... I had consulted lawyers many times in my life, but never sued.
    - tonmoy 10y ago
      No, I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to numerous comments on the original post of Susan Flower's blog on HN
  - mrmaximus 10y ago
    Short answer is that their employment contracts probably don't allow them to sue. Almost all employment contracts contain binding arbitration agreements now.
  - donovanm 10y ago
    Sueing a gigantic company requires lots of money, courage, and could leave you a marked person. It's not that easy of a thing to do.
- crispyambulance 10y ago
hyperbovine 10y ago
I only regret that I have but one app to delete
- therealdrag0 10y ago
  Does anyone know if apps get a chance to phone home about their deletion? Is the owner going to see a specific stat about this action?
  - zuck9 10y ago
    They can definitely see the stats for when users click the "Delete Account" button. Also they can see the usage metrics drop for existing consumers, who have not deleted their accounts but have simply deleted the app.
  - bharath28 10y ago
    iOS has no documented event for apps to be notified when an app is deleted. I assume it is the same in Android.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - johneth 10y ago
    I imagine quite a lot who were motivated enough to delete the app because of this would also delete their Uber account. As I understand it (I've never had an Uber account) there's an optional feedback thing where you can say why you're deleting the account.
- gremlinsinc 10y ago
  just keep installing/deleting it repeatedly.
  - bharath28 10y ago
    Theoretically, you can also keep allowing Push Notification permission every time you install and then delete. This will cause the number of push tokens (unique per device per install) they see to increase. There are ways to overcome this of course - they might have a routine to send silent push notifications at regular intervals to test for this and purge inactive ones or retire extremely old tokens. Just a lot of housekeeping. P.S: Not posting to incite any malicious behavior - just issues i've seen with trying to count "unique" installs for mobile apps. Edit:typo
analyst74 10y ago
I think going through the court system would be much better way to find out the truth and serve punishment if needed, but only if the ground is a bit more even between a major corporation and an individual. Is there a way to support Fowler in some way, like contributing to a legal fund?
- asldkfjasfd7 10y ago
  Buy her book on microservice architecture: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1491965975 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1491965975
devy 10y ago
First off, I empathize her horrendous experiences of being harassed at Uber and applaud her courage to speak out. Susan runs a book club [1][2] and is a published author[3]. Her quick fame rising from the recent press and a 24k+ follower and the amount of product placements on her tweet feed has reminded that old saying: All Press is Good Press. [1]: https://twitter.com/susansbookclub https://twitter.com/susansbookclub [2]: http://www.susansbookclub.com/ http://www.susansbookclub.com/ [3]: https://www.amazon.com/Susan-Fowler/e/B01L8LPRWK https://www.amazon.com/Susan-Fowler/e/B01L8LPRWK
- jmduke 10y ago
  It seems unwise to trot out "all press is good press" given the onslaught of bad (and objectively damaging) press that has gone Uber's way in the past week, which is to say nothing of the rest of your comment.
  - hikewitme 10y ago
    Somehow, even at scale, "all press is good press" still rings true for Uber, as "bad press" has a way of reaching an unaware, untapped market for them. Uber would regularly experience their largest spurts of user growth during times of "bad press". Taxi protest in the UK? Record numbers across the board in Europe that week. Driver accidentally kill a child? Millions download the app to see what that's all about. Best yet is when a metro's city council poo-poo's Uber's model or regulations, you'll see record growth in that city based off of local news, and now Uber has a localized movement of riders they can lobby to campaign for Uber against the city council. There's a playbook for that. The number of deletes rarely surpassed the number of signups during any given "PR crisis" or #delete campaign. Fowler wasn't the first time, and it won't be the last.
- rajathagasthya 10y ago
  > the amount of product placements on her tweet feed Not on her twitter feed. It's on the feed of her product susansbookclub, which is where it should be. What's wrong with that?
- raarts 10y ago
arkona 10y ago
I may be missing something but why isn't the burden of proving those allegations on Susan Fowler? Why are we so quick to point fingers at Uber without even giving them the chance to defend themselves? Many people hate Uber and what they do. There is a strong incentive to smear the company. Smearing Uber has been done in the past when the whole #deleteUber was started becaude Uber drivers were not force to participate in the airport boycotts.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  The reason I believe her is the track record. Uber is so sleazy it's hard to imagine a worse company imho.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Because Kalanick is awkward and unlikeable. Just look at how he behaves in that video in the back of an Uber - rather than empathizing with his driver and saying nothing substantial, he actually discusses the business reasons for creating UberX. He treated his driver a a rational human being like himself rather than an emotional being to be placated. See also this blog post by Jeff Atwood, where he advocates for pointless theatrics and emotional manipulation. It's quite insightful, and Kalanick's refusal to do such things is probably hurting him: https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-hugging-will-continue-until-morale-improves/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-hugging-will-continue-unti...
  - hsod 10y ago
    Well put. I've noticed a phenomenon where people seem to substitute PR/optics for their own morality. That is, people will criticize a public person not for what they've done or said, but for how it looks or how it is likely to be perceived by others.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      I have a Hansonian theory that we actually want powerful and visible people to engage in PR for us in spite of knowing it's BS. The reason is that this suggests to us that they care what we think, at least enough to signal tribal loyalty to us, to tell us that they need us. One of the greatest fears of the modern world is that the higher quality people might one day exit. We demonize companies for outsourcing, rich people for living in gated communities and sending children to private schools, tech bros for using Uber/google bus/etc rather than riding the broken SF public transit. A person like Kalanick (or Thiel, to name a similarly disliked figure) who refuses to engage in this kind of PR is scary; it's a reminder that they don't need us.
rfdub 10y ago
Because she's a woman and women never lie and only ever tell the truth and couldn't possibly have anything to gain by martyring themselves and having the media heap praise and attention upon them. It may not be reflected in societies laws, but for women at least the burden of proof has shifted to the accused. Anyone accused of anything by a woman is now immediately guilty and regardless of what facts they may present to the contrary their guilt will forever be sustained by the courts of public opinion. Here's the rub though. She's probably right. But so am I.
- abpavel 10y ago
  Accusation put forth against Cosby and Trump did not follow your assumptions.
  - arkona 10y ago
    The Cosby case is still ongoing, but what accusations have been put forth against Trump and confirmed (except the "pussy tape")? It would be a huge scandal if the president of the US was found guilty of sexual misconduct.
    - Daishiman 10y ago
      "Except" the pussy tape? You mean your require a couple more notches of unacceptable behavior to even consider this?
      - arkona 10y ago
        Ummm... yes? > Accusation put forth against Cosby and Trump How does the pussy tape prove the rape accusations?
    - abpavel 10y ago
      Here is the list: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/12/all-of-donald-trump-s-accusers-a-timeline-of-every-alleged-grope-and-assault.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/12/all-of-dona...
princeb 10y ago
i thought the harassment story was bad but did everyone miss the totally malfunctioning hr review process and awful culture in susan's story? I just thought that was the hidden part of the iceberg - that there is some kind of crazy lord of the flies thing going on there that is the root of all the harassment and the other bizarre behaviour between teams there. I just don't see it as a very nice place to work unless you thrive in these kind of lawless every-man-for-himself environment.
- ci5er 10y ago
  Same piece, right? Or was there a mini-series?
  - princeb 10y ago
    same piece! i guess everyone was caught up in the sexual harassment story, and the crazy story of her getting her review post hoc revised and transfers/scholarships cancelled became a side story? i found every single part of her story aggravating, the hr process, the backstabbing, the politicking, the sexual harassment, all of it.
laughfactory 10y ago
Well I had not yet deleted the Uber app, but now? Gonzo! And it's not just Susan's account, but all the revelations of how crappy their company culture is, the immaturity and general misbehavior of their CEO (who clearly doesn't understand how being a CEO of such a huge company means he needs to grow up super fast and act like a decent moral human being).
mizchief2 10y ago
Because the best thing to do when you step into a legal shitstorm is to keep talking about it publicly. I'm not denying her claims, but if what happened to her was true, she could have gotten a good bit of cash out of the deal if she had any evidence. If she doesn't have any evidence then the public smear campaign only opens her up to defamatory suits against herself.

277 points by abduhl 10y ago

Neliquat 10y ago

It seems to me, that any decent Law firm would have told her not to tweet about it imho. /ianal

theossuary 10y ago
It doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. If they're investigating her to mount a smear campaign, getting out in front of it sounds like a good idea. But I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know?
ceejayoz 10y ago
Trying a case via the media to push a large company into a settlement is hardly a new strategy, especially with a company like Uber that's getting large amounts of bad PR.
- kartan 10y ago
  > that's getting large amounts of bad PR. Do you mean that is caught doing a lot of nasty stuff? The company has problems, it pushes against workers rights, it leaves towns that don't bow to their business tactics, it is sexist, etc. The "bad PR" is the symptom not the problem. Their actions are the problem.
  - striking 10y ago
    The actions led to the bad PR. Without the bad PR, she wouldn't have spoken up on Twitter about it. I think we're all in agreement except in wording.
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    It's very well deserved bad PR, yes.
kawera 10y ago
Care to elaborate?
viggity 10y ago
that, or they're giving her a sweetheart deal (i.e. low/no fee) because her case is high profile and they can write it off as an advertising expense.
westbywest 10y ago
Under other circumstances I'd agree this is poor strategy w/r/t preparing for possible future legal defense. Detail here may be that Fowler may soon find herself gagged from disclosing further details, especially if surviving terms in her employment contract with Uber allow for it.
- zekevermillion 10y ago
  If Uber tries to use employee covenants to silence Ms. Fowler, what do you think the reaction is going to be? This is just the beginning. If the problems are as systemic as alleged by Ms. Fowler, the litigation will be working its way through courts for years to come.
  - joering2 10y ago
    It has to be this bad or worse! You dont hire ex attorney general who is corrupted on record (currently works for clients that he initally was investigating as GA and of course never got anywhere) if you dont need a player that has "get free from jail" card.
    - zekevermillion 10y ago
      There does not appear to be genuine contrition, that is for sure...
zekevermillion 10y ago
Disagree. Speaking up about Uber's conduct is a personal risk that Ms. Fowler has apparently decided to take, perhaps for reasons of personal integrity. A good lawyer would advise her of the scope and magnitude of risk, and then support her if she chooses to run that risk.
fictioncircle 10y ago
Under normal circumstances, yes. However, in this case, it is already largely public and making Uber look the villain is a viable strategy given that Uber likely is the villain.
noonespecial 10y ago
You are right. A lawyer's job is to minimize your legal risk. The least risky thing to do is to keep silent. That's what he'll reliably tell you to do. It's your job to decide how much risk you are willing to take to speak out. Some fights are worth fighting.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

mikestew 10y ago

Umm, okay. I would fully expect this. Ms. Fowler seems to be a large liability for Uber. I don't find it unreasonable that "Uber has a law firm investigating <her>", if for no other reason than to find what she knew and when she knew it (or something along those lines), were she to sue what are the potential ramifications, et. al. IOW, I'm not going to run in circles over a seven word tweet that could mean about anything.

thedz 10y ago
> IOW, I'm not going to run in circles over a seven word tweet that could mean about anything. It's not a 7 word tweet. Full text of linked tweet: "Uber names/blames me for account deletes, and has a different law firm -not Holders - investigating me. I have hired" The "names/blames for account deletes" is kinda weird. In either case, the title of this submission is a strict paraphrasing (despite being in quotes) of an already short tweet, which is pretty meh.
bigethan 10y ago
The seven words in the HN title are not the tweet. Part of the actual tweet is: "Uber names/blames me for account deletes" That's a much more aggressive approach than the defensive reasoning you're conjuring out of thin air.
- joering2 10y ago
  By the way - what a stupid logic they apply. Similarily it would be fine to say that I blame the cop for losing my job because he pulled me over drunk and now I cannot drive to my work with suspended DL.
- mikestew 10y ago
  The seven words in the HN title are not the tweet. Then it shouldn't have been in quotes (I see that it's since been changed).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
10y ago

AdmiralAsshat 10y ago

Not surprising. Depressing, but not at all surprising.

asdfasdf32r3 10y ago
Why is it depressing? The company needs to know where it stands. This tweet could mean anything from her being stalked to legal representatives taking pre-deposition interviews. While it seems pretty cut and dried to me that Uber is in the wrong, don't they have the responsibility and the right to investigate for themselves?
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  Holder is supposedly investigating the situation for Uber. A 2nd firm looking at Fowler specifically would imply a different (addl) strategy--like litigation against her personally, or a PR campaign to smear her.

tabeth 10y ago

I'm pretty clueless about the law, but I don't really see what case Uber has against her. How could they prove that she's the one that resulted in account deletions? Even if you suppose she's the one to blame, if what she claimed is true then wouldn't their point be moot?

fictioncircle 10y ago
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2017/02/27/it-admin-was-authorized-to-trash-employers-network-he-says/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2017/02/27/it-admin-was-aut... They are probably thinking they can go that route.

alphonsegaston 10y ago

I had an extended exchange with an Uber employee the other day, in which he steadfastly refused to believe that Uber was going after Fowler after the initial reports of this. Despite countless examples of this kind of behavior in the past, he kept insisting that everything was only "alleged" or "unverified." I'm not sure what kind of cargo cult they have going on over there, but it sure is effective at getting people to see past the most obvious examples of straight up awfulness. Explains a lot about what happened to Susan.

dllthomas 10y ago
I steadfastly refused to expect, pending more data, investigation with intent to discredit, disparage, or defame Susan Fowler. This is still unclear but I certainly agree that it is very worrying. You can bet that we'll be asking tough questions about it on Tuesday. As an aside, I believe you simply meant "cult" - "cargo cult" is specifically to do with performing actions superficially resembling things that work elsewhere without understanding (or replicating) the why of it. Your accusation, of persisting in believing bizarre things in the face of evidence, is more general.
- alphonsegaston 10y ago
  Hey, thanks for commenting on this. I respect that you'll stand up internally against any attempt to go after Susan. Apologies for not giving you more credit in my original comment. I used cargo cult because I expect that a lot of the willingness to dismiss this behavior is out of expectation of a maybe-never-to-be-delivered gift from the "IPO Gods." Just to be clear, I'm not ascribing this to you, but I've had other conversations with Uber employees who were explicitly cynical in their stance, after this fashion.
  - dllthomas 10y ago
    Thanks!
- logfromblammo 10y ago
  An alternate idiom that avoids the "cult" versus "cargo cult" confusion would be "I don't know what's in their [corporate] Kool-Aid over there...". That evokes the image of Jim Jones People's Temple Jonestown mass murder-suicide, using poisoned Flavor Aid beverage mix. In a corporate context, "drinking the Kool-Aid" means to uncritically embrace the corporate culture, even if it is actually toxic. Anecdotally, companies that try to impress a culture upon their employees always do it to obscure the otherwise obvious shortcomings in the business itself. Without fail, it is continuously reinforced propaganda, designed to create an irrational emotional attachment to the workplace. Subtler versions use "we" or "us" to refer to the employee labor, rather than the owners and managers. Everyone does it to some extent, and once you can see the fnords, you can't stop seeing them. The literal cargo cultists were south Pacific islanders that saw temporary military airfields constructed in World War 2, and planes filled with valuable cargo landing on them or making airdrops, correlated the two, and then built their own mock airfields so that the goods would once again rain down from the sky. The business of running a working airfield was transformed into a religious ritual to call down manna from heaven. In a modern figurative sense, "cargo culting" is something like instituting a daily stand-up meeting when your development process is not actually Agile Manifesto compatible. While "cult" is in a literal sense nothing more than a group with a common religion, the word has acquired a derogatory shading that implies practices hostile and predatory to the membership, secrecy, and insularity. If your religion severely punishes heterodoxy or apostasy, attempts to supplant or replace your supportive institutions such as family, friends, and government, and encourages you to liquidate your own wealth and transfer it to the religious leadership, it will probably be referred to by non-members and the news media as a cult. Some businesses employ cult-like practices, and often replace the direct tithing with less obvious schemes, such as multilevel marketing or sweatshop labor.

thedz 10y ago

The title of this submission is a strict paraphrasing (despite being in quotes) of an already short tweet, which is pretty meh. The full tweet is: "Uber names/blames me for account deletes, and has a different law firm -not Holders - investigating me. I have hired" "Uber names/blames me for account deletes" is a pretty bold claim, and doesn't feel like a routine investigation.

jefftchan 10y ago
For context, "Names/blames me for account deletes" is probably related to: http://www.complex.com/life/2017/02/uber-users-deleting-app-sexual-harassment-allegations-company-hurting http://www.complex.com/life/2017/02/uber-users-deleting-app-... https://twitter.com/FamousCeleb/status/834567373214539776/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/FamousCeleb/status/834567373214539776/ph...
- chaser7016 10y ago
  Why does a user have to email a company to delete their account? How is that consumer friendly, especially after Uber lets your account get hacked/1k stolen! This happened to me (I never used Uber.. signed up and forgot about it) and in my research I found out they know about the hacks and their PR message is its the user's fault for using a lame password. What a horrible company.. run by the worst vile, corrupt, arrogant sociopaths ever!
  - mattieuga 10y ago
    To be fair here, having to send an email to delete your account is true of the vast majority of companies.
    - chaser7016 10y ago
      It is? Who else does this so I can avoid them! It's an internet service .. I don't need to send an email to Facebook, twitter, etc to have my account canceled. Uber should be no different unless there's a pending charge then tell the user you can cancel after payment has cleared ...not wait until we feel like emailing you to handle your request because WE WANT TO LOCK YOU IN! I was and am still furious that I was unable to cancel my phantom Uber account immediately after my bank account got hacked. Any web service following this scheme is not doing it for their users but for themselves!!!

rrggrr 10y ago

Pro tip for whistleblowers: Hire an attorney before you blow the whistle, and listen to their advice. Preferably an attorney who has litigated against your employer in the past. If you simply must write a diatribe beforehand then stick the facts of the issue at-hand (eg. discrimination) and avoid the temptation to author a tell all. Even the best future employers will be given pause upon learning of your tell all blog post, regardless of the rock solid merits. In short: Don't let you feelings get in the way of your desired result.

tonmoy 10y ago
And people were asking why these women just don't sue. It seems people need to be careful and think twice even when writing a blog post let alone sue.
- xiphias 10y ago
  If you are refering to me, I asked why she doesn't go to a lawyer... I had consulted lawyers many times in my life, but never sued.
  - tonmoy 10y ago
    No, I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to numerous comments on the original post of Susan Flower's blog on HN
- mrmaximus 10y ago
  Short answer is that their employment contracts probably don't allow them to sue. Almost all employment contracts contain binding arbitration agreements now.
- donovanm 10y ago
  Sueing a gigantic company requires lots of money, courage, and could leave you a marked person. It's not that easy of a thing to do.
crispyambulance 10y ago

hyperbovine 10y ago

I only regret that I have but one app to delete

therealdrag0 10y ago
Does anyone know if apps get a chance to phone home about their deletion? Is the owner going to see a specific stat about this action?
- zuck9 10y ago
  They can definitely see the stats for when users click the "Delete Account" button. Also they can see the usage metrics drop for existing consumers, who have not deleted their accounts but have simply deleted the app.
- bharath28 10y ago
  iOS has no documented event for apps to be notified when an app is deleted. I assume it is the same in Android.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- johneth 10y ago
  I imagine quite a lot who were motivated enough to delete the app because of this would also delete their Uber account. As I understand it (I've never had an Uber account) there's an optional feedback thing where you can say why you're deleting the account.
gremlinsinc 10y ago
just keep installing/deleting it repeatedly.
- bharath28 10y ago
  Theoretically, you can also keep allowing Push Notification permission every time you install and then delete. This will cause the number of push tokens (unique per device per install) they see to increase. There are ways to overcome this of course - they might have a routine to send silent push notifications at regular intervals to test for this and purge inactive ones or retire extremely old tokens. Just a lot of housekeeping. P.S: Not posting to incite any malicious behavior - just issues i've seen with trying to count "unique" installs for mobile apps. Edit:typo

analyst74 10y ago

I think going through the court system would be much better way to find out the truth and serve punishment if needed, but only if the ground is a bit more even between a major corporation and an individual. Is there a way to support Fowler in some way, like contributing to a legal fund?

asldkfjasfd7 10y ago
Buy her book on microservice architecture: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1491965975 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1491965975

devy 10y ago

First off, I empathize her horrendous experiences of being harassed at Uber and applaud her courage to speak out. Susan runs a book club [1][2] and is a published author[3]. Her quick fame rising from the recent press and a 24k+ follower and the amount of product placements on her tweet feed has reminded that old saying: All Press is Good Press. [1]: https://twitter.com/susansbookclub https://twitter.com/susansbookclub [2]: http://www.susansbookclub.com/ http://www.susansbookclub.com/ [3]: https://www.amazon.com/Susan-Fowler/e/B01L8LPRWK https://www.amazon.com/Susan-Fowler/e/B01L8LPRWK

jmduke 10y ago
It seems unwise to trot out "all press is good press" given the onslaught of bad (and objectively damaging) press that has gone Uber's way in the past week, which is to say nothing of the rest of your comment.
- hikewitme 10y ago
  Somehow, even at scale, "all press is good press" still rings true for Uber, as "bad press" has a way of reaching an unaware, untapped market for them. Uber would regularly experience their largest spurts of user growth during times of "bad press". Taxi protest in the UK? Record numbers across the board in Europe that week. Driver accidentally kill a child? Millions download the app to see what that's all about. Best yet is when a metro's city council poo-poo's Uber's model or regulations, you'll see record growth in that city based off of local news, and now Uber has a localized movement of riders they can lobby to campaign for Uber against the city council. There's a playbook for that. The number of deletes rarely surpassed the number of signups during any given "PR crisis" or #delete campaign. Fowler wasn't the first time, and it won't be the last.
rajathagasthya 10y ago
> the amount of product placements on her tweet feed Not on her twitter feed. It's on the feed of her product susansbookclub, which is where it should be. What's wrong with that?
raarts 10y ago

arkona 10y ago

I may be missing something but why isn't the burden of proving those allegations on Susan Fowler? Why are we so quick to point fingers at Uber without even giving them the chance to defend themselves? Many people hate Uber and what they do. There is a strong incentive to smear the company. Smearing Uber has been done in the past when the whole #deleteUber was started becaude Uber drivers were not force to participate in the airport boycotts.

lostlogin 10y ago
The reason I believe her is the track record. Uber is so sleazy it's hard to imagine a worse company imho.
yummyfajitas 10y ago
Because Kalanick is awkward and unlikeable. Just look at how he behaves in that video in the back of an Uber - rather than empathizing with his driver and saying nothing substantial, he actually discusses the business reasons for creating UberX. He treated his driver a a rational human being like himself rather than an emotional being to be placated. See also this blog post by Jeff Atwood, where he advocates for pointless theatrics and emotional manipulation. It's quite insightful, and Kalanick's refusal to do such things is probably hurting him: https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-hugging-will-continue-until-morale-improves/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-hugging-will-continue-unti...
- hsod 10y ago
  Well put. I've noticed a phenomenon where people seem to substitute PR/optics for their own morality. That is, people will criticize a public person not for what they've done or said, but for how it looks or how it is likely to be perceived by others.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    I have a Hansonian theory that we actually want powerful and visible people to engage in PR for us in spite of knowing it's BS. The reason is that this suggests to us that they care what we think, at least enough to signal tribal loyalty to us, to tell us that they need us. One of the greatest fears of the modern world is that the higher quality people might one day exit. We demonize companies for outsourcing, rich people for living in gated communities and sending children to private schools, tech bros for using Uber/google bus/etc rather than riding the broken SF public transit. A person like Kalanick (or Thiel, to name a similarly disliked figure) who refuses to engage in this kind of PR is scary; it's a reminder that they don't need us.

rfdub 10y ago

Because she's a woman and women never lie and only ever tell the truth and couldn't possibly have anything to gain by martyring themselves and having the media heap praise and attention upon them. It may not be reflected in societies laws, but for women at least the burden of proof has shifted to the accused. Anyone accused of anything by a woman is now immediately guilty and regardless of what facts they may present to the contrary their guilt will forever be sustained by the courts of public opinion. Here's the rub though. She's probably right. But so am I.

abpavel 10y ago
Accusation put forth against Cosby and Trump did not follow your assumptions.
- arkona 10y ago
  The Cosby case is still ongoing, but what accusations have been put forth against Trump and confirmed (except the "pussy tape")? It would be a huge scandal if the president of the US was found guilty of sexual misconduct.
  - Daishiman 10y ago
    "Except" the pussy tape? You mean your require a couple more notches of unacceptable behavior to even consider this?
    - arkona 10y ago
      Ummm... yes? > Accusation put forth against Cosby and Trump How does the pussy tape prove the rape accusations?
  - abpavel 10y ago
    Here is the list: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/12/all-of-donald-trump-s-accusers-a-timeline-of-every-alleged-grope-and-assault.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/12/all-of-dona...

princeb 10y ago

i thought the harassment story was bad but did everyone miss the totally malfunctioning hr review process and awful culture in susan's story? I just thought that was the hidden part of the iceberg - that there is some kind of crazy lord of the flies thing going on there that is the root of all the harassment and the other bizarre behaviour between teams there. I just don't see it as a very nice place to work unless you thrive in these kind of lawless every-man-for-himself environment.

ci5er 10y ago
Same piece, right? Or was there a mini-series?
- princeb 10y ago
  same piece! i guess everyone was caught up in the sexual harassment story, and the crazy story of her getting her review post hoc revised and transfers/scholarships cancelled became a side story? i found every single part of her story aggravating, the hr process, the backstabbing, the politicking, the sexual harassment, all of it.

laughfactory 10y ago

Well I had not yet deleted the Uber app, but now? Gonzo! And it's not just Susan's account, but all the revelations of how crappy their company culture is, the immaturity and general misbehavior of their CEO (who clearly doesn't understand how being a CEO of such a huge company means he needs to grow up super fast and act like a decent moral human being).

mizchief2 10y ago

Because the best thing to do when you step into a legal shitstorm is to keep talking about it publicly. I'm not denying her claims, but if what happened to her was true, she could have gotten a good bit of cash out of the deal if she had any evidence. If she doesn't have any evidence then the public smear campaign only opens her up to defamatory suits against herself.