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Sweden brings back military conscription
- vspecnur 10y agoIt's not like they havent been invaded already...
- thearn4 10y agoHistorically Sweden has not been invaded in quite a long time, right?
- walkingolof 10y agoLast war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish–Norwegian_War_(1814) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish–Norwegian_War_(1814) So +200 years without war and counting
- pavlov 10y agoI think vspecnur was talking about "Last Night in Sweden" (which sounds like a softcore porn movie but is a different kind of fantasy).
- alehul 10y agoI believe OP was referring to the refugee crisis we've had in Sweden lately. It's put a huge strain on the country, and our prisons often have better amenities than refugee camps which is a recipe for disaster.
- seppin 10y agoI don't get why people hold this up as an accomplishment. The world has been at war several times and Sweden has fought only a few times on small scales. When you building is on fire, but your are safe in your flat, it's not a moral decision to lock your door and goto sleep for the night.
- ptaipale 10y agoActually, until Napoleonic wars, Sweden was pretty much in a constant state of war. For instance, my great-grandfather in 12th generation (then a Swedish subject in Östprovinsen, now known as Finland) earned himself a little manor house (tax-exempt and all that) by spending a couple of decades in the Thirty Years War pillaging Prague and other places. Well, many others were also warring a lot then, but the change was quite abrupt in Sweden, and then the country even managed to stay out of WWI and WWII. Of course, in Cold War it was actually operating with the U.S. but the war was not, well, hot.
- ptaipale 10y agoSweden was bombed by USSR a few times in 1940 and 1944, though.
- BurningFrog 10y agoSweden is maybe the only country in the world that has no independence day.
- joe_fishfish 10y agoThe UK doesn't have one either.
- mkohlmyr 10y agoNot exactly true, imo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_War_of_Liberation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_War_of_Liberation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Sweden
- BurningFrog 10y agoYeah, the Kalmar Union is the one debatable exception. You can either view it as Sweden being ruled by Denmark, or a EU style union between equals, in which case 1523 is more of a Brexit situation. There are decent arguments on both side. I lean towards the latter view. Instituting a National Day in to remember it is more a modern way to try to keep up with the neighbors. All other countries have a national day, so we should get one too, even though we're not really sure what to do with it :)
- vkou 10y agoCanada's Confederation day (July 1st, 1876) has nothing to do with Canadian independence (Which happened at the time that the Canada Act was signed by the British parliament - April 17, 1982.)
- carsongross 10y agoAll joking aside, it will be interesting to see if refugees will tolerate conscription. One quarter of the population (and a significantly higher percentage of the younger fighting age male population) is either foreign born or the child of someone foreign born. Conscription is always controversial and the questions of national identity that have in the past provided a social framework for supporting it are much fuzzier now. The question of "What is a Swede" would no longer be a theoretical one. On the other hand, almost all extant nationalities were hammered out on an anvil of blood soaked fields...
- rhblake 10y agoThe majority of foreign-born people in Sweden did not arrive as refugees. About half were born in Europe, with Finland - which is very similar in culture and also has conscription (as well as a much larger army) - being the most common country. Source: http://www.statistikdatabasen.scb.se/pxweb/sv/ssd/START__BE__BE0101__BE0101E/UtrikesFoddaR/ http://www.statistikdatabasen.scb.se/pxweb/sv/ssd/START__BE_... (official gov't statistics)
- ptaipale 10y agoMy son is now a conscript (Finland has roughly 21 000 at any one time, plus 12 000 professionals in service) and having seen the troops, it looks like the black skins are just as happy or unhappy there as the white skins, if not happier. The conscript army is a melting pot where everyone's former life becomes not very relevant; whether you come from a rich family or poor, whether you have high school education or not, you start with the same kit and stand in the same line taking the same orders. Often shit, but it's the same shit for everyone. I believe there is some racism as there is everywhere, but overall I think the armed forces are a place where someone who came as a refugee in on more even terms with others than anywhere else before that.
- valuearb 10y ago4,000 troops? Ok.
- chrisseaton 10y agoHow do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into the Army in the first place because it's competitive so we know they're motivated. What do you do with a conscript who never wanted to be there and possibly fundamentally isn't suited to military life anyway gives up? Threaten them with legal action? What do you do if they sort of do what they're told, but not really putting any effort into it? Conscription seems counter-productive to me. If you can't attract enough motivated and talented people to join your military then maybe your military is not representative of your society anymore and you should fix that.
- mikeash 10y agoThe article says, "The aim is to encourage them to become military professionals or to join the reserves." I'm not quite sure if that's reasonable, but it's a bit different from just forcing people to fight.
- Nullabillity 10y agoSo... 9 month brainwashing camps? That doesn't exactly sound like a good idea either. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35456535 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35456535 : > "I always had a dream to come back as an officer and to do it here on Gotland and establish a new unit, it's perfect," he tells me. That's exactly the kind of people who have no business even being in charge of what they themselves eat for breakfast. This mess makes me ashamed of my country.
- zzzcpan 10y agoNo army can exist without brainwashing. The only difference between volunteers and conscripts is that volunteers are not threatened/tricked into joining, but are incentivized to do so. Plus there is always a lot of government propaganda pushing "patriotism", trying to make military look "cool", shaming those avoiding service, etc, making some more willing to volunteer and some conscripts not opposing to it as much.
- thedevil 10y agoI'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/propaganda. I don't think Sweden is a target.
- macintux 10y agoWar has a way of spilling over borders.
- bandrami 10y agoAs do refugees, which sometimes require military resources to feed and house
- nkrisc 10y agoI wouldn't cite propaganda to support that conclusion, precisely because it's propaganda.
- thedevil 10y agoI see propaganda as very indicative of future conflicts, especially in countries like Russia, where the news stories are more heavily influenced by the government. I think propaganda is necessary to support a war effort (and avoid insurrection). Think of it this way: If you're a soldier and your government tells you to invade a random country with nice people, how willing are you to fight? On the other hand, if your government convinces you that the target country is full of Nazis that eat babies and plan to genocide your people, then suddenly you're a hero if you go kill a bunch of strangers who never did anything to you. So if you're running a country and you want to invade another country, you better start running the propaganda months, if not years, in advance. Edit: As another example, take the Iraq War. The US and NATO didn't just randomly invade Iraq without propaganda preparation. Bush was even calling Iraq part of the "axis of evil" for at least a year before the Iraq war.
- nateberkopec 10y agoWhat's the point of conscription? Surely there must be a good reason. Boosting the numbers of your military by forcefully bringing in some barely-motivated, hardly-trained conscripts that are discharged just a few months after completing basic training seems ineffective. Is there some larger "get the public used to military service" social goal?
- yjgyhj 10y agoWe have a long history of conscription. I think it's a good thing. I think it's the moral choice when it comes to defence (but obviously not enough). That is because a conscript is not a professional soldier - and a conscript will never invade another country without good reason. Conscripts will defend their land, but not unjustly attack others.
- fwn 10y agoThen I'd be a bad conscript. I don't even own land.
- alkonaut 10y agoDischarged just after training was always the norm in Sweden. Once trained there was never an army to "serve" in - unless you wanted to become an officer and train others. The peacetime organization is tiny compared to the wartime one. At it's pesk the swedish military was over 10% if the population. Most of them of course were just butchers and bus drivers who trained for a year. It was common to be called back for repeat training however. I think the social effects are just positive side effect. These effect do however only work when everyone is conscripted like until the 90 I think. They bring together people from all backgrounds social ethnic and economic and force them to cooperate. I learned a lot from it. I think it can also be a great laguage training for refugees.
- robert_foss 10y agoSo to add some needed background information to this: Every 18 year old has been forced to submit a form stating if they want to be conscripted. That's about 100k people every year. Out of the 100k, about 20k state that they do want to be conscripted. Out of the 20k that say yes, 4k are selected during a screening process that evaluates physical and mental fitness. So there are no less than 2 points where you can opt out of being conscripted if you so like.
- pinum 10y agoThat doesn't sound like conscription, then. If they didn't have enough people saying yes, do they start drawing from the "no" pile?
- yjgyhj 10y agoYes they do - if not enough people volunteer, they will force the ones seeming most fit for the tasks at hand. Also, if I know the Swedish military, they'll chose the most fit for the task, but make absolutely sure to fill the gender quotas.
- kristianp 10y agoWhat's the required gender ratio, out of curiosity?
- robert_foss 10y agoI have never heard of such a thing.
- seppin 10y ago> That doesn't sound like conscription It's not, but the headline serves as a catalyst for a conversation people want to have anyways. That's how it works, folks.
- fwn 10y ago
- entropyneur 10y agoI am quite surprised by the number of people here (and even larger numbers elsewhere this is being discussed) who don't seem to have any ethical problem with conscription. Thought the idea of killer slaves was completely off limits in the West. Now all of a sudden we are debating cost effectiveness. Guess I thought wrong.
- dredmorbius 10y agoThere's no such thing as a good war. There are necessary wars. And ultimately, a failure to be able to defend against neighboring beligerants is fatal to a society.
- LanceH 10y agoConscription is straight up slavery. I don't see any way around that. The arguments seem to be, "you'll only be a slave for a while, if you live", "we need slaves", "you'll get paid to do the work you're forced to do". If you want an army, be worth defending -- both in terms of paying the soldier and being a country that a soldier would want to work for.
- briffle 10y agoAs a male that is forced to register with the US Selective Service, (I wanted financial aid for college) it sure does stick in my mind when I vote for our leaders, who can then authorize a draft if needed...
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago>Conscription is straight up slavery. I don't see any way around that. // Which person owns you in your analysis of that being slavery? Or is being owned by another person not a part of your definition? In a democracy, you're a slave to your own country, effectively. There are people making decisions on your life, all the people voting in the country including you, no? It may be wrong, just doesn't look like slavery to me.
- LanceH 10y ago
- frabbit 10y agoSo who are we at war with today? Oceania?
- TorKlingberg 10y agoI can give a bit of context. Mandatory military service in Sweden only ended in 2010, so this is not a huge change. During the cold was period, almost all men did ~1 year of military service. After that it was a regular job, but in case of war everyone could be conscripted. By the '90s it dropped to maybe 1/3 of young men. Everyone went to a 1-2 day testing session, and then some were selected. In practice, it became increasingly voluntary. Soldiers on peacekeeping missions in foreign countries are all volunteers. In 2010 mandatory service was dropped completely. I think the Swedish military found it difficult to recruit enough after that, and the politicians now think the military has shrunk a bit too much. I don't think it will be a huge growth (that would cost money), but perhaps a return to early 2000's level. This time it includes women. I am not a big fan of conscription, but I can somewhat accept it as long as it's strictly defensive. One good argument for it is that a conscript army is unlikely to stage a military coup in a democracy. If the soldiers are more or less random people, they will more or less support the elected government, at least a portion of them. But, as military power becomes more about technology than numbers, I suspect this argument becomes less important.
- jcranmer 10y ago> One good argument for it is that a conscript army is unlikely to stage a military coup in a democracy. Turkey has mandatory military service and suffered an attempted coup less than a year ago. Napoleon came to power in France after the levée en masse, really the first major mass conscription act in history. Egypt, last coup being ~4 years ago, again has mass conscription. As does Thailand. And Eritrea, Sudan, Chad, and Equatorial Guinea, although I don't know if mandatory military service dates back before the time of those coups. Coups are often instigated by the officer class, whereas mass conscription is primarily used to fill out enlisted ranks. There's definitely room for the upper echelons of a military to support a coup while the lower echelons remain largely apathetic.
- throwaway7767 10y ago> One good argument for it is that a conscript army is unlikely to stage a military coup in a democracy. If the soldiers are more or less random people, they will more or less support the elected government, at least a portion of them. At the same time, military training involves quite a lot of indoctrination as part of getting people to shut up and follow orders. I'm not sure it's particularly healthy for democracy to send a large part of its citizens to indoctrination camps.
- johan_larson 10y ago"In Russia all men aged 18-27 have to spend a year in the armed forces." I don't think that's correct. College graduates only have to serve a few weeks, IIRC.
- degorov 10y agoNot true. Graduates serve for 1 year just as all other men. People who graduated from colleges with military departments get the rank of lieutenant and indeed serve a few weeks, but as of 2017 not too much universities have those departments and even if they do, not every student can enroll there as there are certain requirements for health and physical abilities.
- theBobBob 10y agoThe trend seems to be lately to end conscription or national service, as Sweden did itself, but is this the first time in recent history that a country introduced or reintroduced conscription?
- 627467 10y agoYou'll see that many European nations ended conscription during the last decade(Sweden in 2010)[1]. If anything this seems to signal a new trend: reactivating conscription. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service
- Animats 10y ago9 to 12 months is short. The first six months are lost to training. The US used to draft people for 2 years (Vietnam) or, in WWII, "for the duration, plus six months". About 75% of the US military-age population couldn't qualify for the US Army today. Too fat, too criminal, too sick, too crazy, or too dumb. This worries some military manpower planners. What are Sweden's stats like?
- alkonaut 10y agoIt is training. Traditionally the 18 year olds were all trained 8-15 months and then return to civil life immediately. Now they want those who do the training to stay as employed soldiers afterwards - but traditionally Sweden had only a conscript army, no standing army in peacetime apart from those employed in the organization to do the training. This makes sense as we don't have wars, don't have large foreign bases to staff etc.
- johansch 10y agoNot exactly what you are looking for but in terms of having a fit population Sweden is doing (comparatively) well: http://www.worldobesity.org/resources/world-map-obesity/?map=overview-men#country=SWE http://www.worldobesity.org/resources/world-map-obesity/?map...
- coldcode 10y agoWe should have this in the US, starting with the children of Congress and the Senate. I think Mark Twain or Will Rodgers said something like this.
- armenarmen 10y agoWhen the US had conscription (at least in ww2) it supposedly had the effect of creating a "we're all in this together" mentality. I wonder if, in addition to the threat of a perceived expansionist Russia, the influx of new immigrants has anything to do with this. A year of servitude might may assist in integrating new swedes. Or in part help the indigenous swedes see the new arrivals as somehow more Swedish for having served?
- ChuckMcM 10y agoIt is sobering to think that if you have the technology you can conscript a workforce to build war fighting robots more effectively than you can conscript a force to fight for you. I believe one of the developments in Syria and Iraq that is under appreciated by strategists is the force multiplication efforts of "cheap drones with hand grenades". Assuming that 50% of the videos on these things are fake, that is still a good case that it is getting easier and easier to turn money into usable offensive capability. In my estimation, THAT pivot is going to have as much impact on conflicts as the machine gun did.
- randyrand 10y agoIf you're having trouble getting volunteers, the solution is simple. Pay them more.
- smb06 10y agoHow is this post not flagged and anything negative related to Trump gets flagged and downvoted because it is "too political for HN"? Has HN started to take political sides now?
- grzm 10y agoIf you think this submission (or any other) are inappropriate for HN, please do flag. As for political sides, humans are generally biased to see actions against their own beliefs and miss those that are congruent. Political submissions in general regardless of political persuasion tend to attract flags, and this one likely has as well: it has 170 points and is only 8 hours old, yet is no longer on the front page.
- whatnotests 10y agoBork bork!