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It's good that kids will get to read this as part of their class, but America as a country needs to relax when it comes to swearing. How much damage can reading

It's good that kids will get to read this as part of their class, but America as a country needs to relax when it comes to swearing. How much damage can reading the word fuck do to someone who is 13-18 years old?

mudil 10y ago
I believe that constant swearing is inappropriate. As a matter of fact, in that book it decreased believability for me. An educated astronaut, faced with a possible extinction, would want to leave a worthy testament/diary, and not an expletive-riddled notes.
- imode 10y ago
  no matter how intelligent or educated you may be, words are just words. if they harm your sensibilities, perhaps try ignoring people. besides, a loud expletive is sometimes required in certain situations. :P
  - JustSomeNobody 10y ago
    Why do we require shirts and shoes at work? Why do we tell our children to say "Yes, sir" and "No, ma'am"? Why do we not wear hats indoors? Yes, words are just words. It doesn't matter if you replace Fuck with shit or damn or pussy. The expression of the word is, in some situations, completely disrespectful of those around you. Respect. There's a severe LACK of it now-a-days.
    - imode 10y ago
      I don't really want to be seeing some person's genitals, mainly because we live in a culture based around hiding your junk (which I'm not opposed to). someone's words, however, are totally transient and I'm free to tune them out. I'm not exactly free to not look at somebody. I can put headphones on. I can't put a blindfold on. hats indoors? really? you think that's disrespectful? there's a severe lack of common sense nowadays, and uppity folks are proof of it. fuck words. :P
      - JustSomeNobody 10y ago
        Yes, hats indoors are disrespectful. Every been to a movie theater?
        khedoros1 10y ago
        Yes, clothes in public are disrespectful. Ever been to a public bath house? "Hats indoors" is a superset of "hats in a theater" (ignoring outdoor theaters). Saying that something applies to a subset isn't an argument for why it should apply to a superset. There might be a good argument for them being rude. The theater isn't that argument.
    - khedoros1 10y ago
      Having expected patterns of behavior smooths interaction between people. Bringing things back to the book: The dude's in a tough situation, with much less reason to self-censor thoughts he might be having. It makes sense that social niceties would be out the window.
      - JustSomeNobody 10y ago
        But the argument here isn't about the character's situation. It's about swear words in schools. It's less censoring and more of an abridgment.
        khedoros1 10y ago
        Used in a science curriculum, you're studying the science, and may as well get rid of distracting elements. Bowdlerizing it in the context of a language arts curriculum would still be "in schools", and I'd go the opposite direction there. In that context, I'd say they're an important part of the book, establishing the character that the author wanted to portray, and that you'd be losing lessons on contextual appropriateness of different registers of language. The fact that both situations would occur in a school setting is completely irrelevant to me. I don't think that it should play a part in the "abridgement" decision (although I recognize that it would, and that my opinion on the matter is likely to be controversial). It's more important to me how closely it fits the purpose that it's being put to. In the case of my two examples, scientific vs artistic truths.
- dceddia 10y ago
  I felt the opposite actually. To me, the swearing made it more believable -- sure, the guy is leaving a diary, but for all he knows, nobody will ever find it. Being stranded on Mars and facing one's own death seems like the perfect occasion for swearing. I thought the swearing in that book was very tastefully done. For me it added a bit of lightness and humor to the whole thing. I'm actually pretty disappointed that they cut so many of the swears from the movie.
  - libeclipse 10y ago
    This. The profanity, in my opinion, is really well used in the book. It gives it a raw and authentic feel that you wouldn't otherwise get. You can really see yourself there because he's talking like a human, not some politically correct ideal of a person.
    - jat850 10y ago
      I think your point is fair, but there are also some humans (who are not just politically correct ideals) who don't lace their speech or writing with swears, even under duress or stressful conditions - they're still talking like humans, too. It would be no less raw or authentic if the character was one of these people. To be clear, the character is a foul-mouthed variety of person. But if he weren't, and the book were absent of swearing, it would not seem any less authentic to me.
- crooked-v 10y ago
  Literally the central point of Watney's character through the whole book is that he refuses to accept he's going to die there and does whatever he can to prevent it.
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  I don't think it's inappropriate as much as I think it's just pure laziness. Can't find a more descriptive word? Drop an F-bomb. Yeah... get on with your bad self!.
- lawless123 10y ago
  They curse like sailors http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-nasa-censored-dirty-mouthed-astronauts-180953470/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-nasa-censored-d... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msIUMu2PjBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msIUMu2PjBM
  - wadetandy 10y ago
    Technically they are sailors.
    - thefalcon 10y ago
      Plus, he's a pirate.
- karthikb 10y ago
  Have you read the transcripts from the Apollo missions? http://m.imgur.com/Y1klGHr?r http://m.imgur.com/Y1klGHr?r
- chaosite 10y ago
  Astronauts are people too. Some people swear. See the Apollo 10 logs: https://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/AS10_CM.PDF https://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/AS10_CM.PDF
  - gcb0 10y ago
    more relevant, astronauts mostly grow up outside of the Bible belt, hence they swear. People in the Bible belt pass this kind of laws to warp reality and make the big city seem like a dangerous lawles place.
    - aanm1988 10y ago
      A lot of them were in the military too. Guess what, soldiers swear.
- allemagne 10y ago
  Sure it was inappropriate. Many educated people swear like sailors exactly because it's inappropriate. His profanity was part of his character, and other characters reacted exactly as though it was inappropriate.
- 27182818284 10y ago
  I'm with you. At times it seemed too forced--as if the author thought, "Oops, I forgot to add something to this sentence...a period? No, it needs a 'shit!'" In some cases it really felt like they were just going back over text and adding them in as an afterthought.
- saycheese 10y ago
  “The consistent findings across the studies suggest that the positive relation between profanity and honesty is robust, and that the relationship found at the individual level indeed translates to the society level,” concludes the final paper, set to be published in the journal of Psychological and Personality Science: https://4f46691c-a-dbcb5f65-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/michalkosinski.com/michalkosinski/Profanity.pdf https://4f46691c-a-dbcb5f65-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/micha...
nsxwolf 10y ago
I don't think America as a country is particularly uptight about swearing. I hear swearing all the time, everywhere I go. We have a cultural norm that adult authority figures do not swear in front of children or provide them with educational materials containing profanity. I can see why this norm may be irksome to some people but I don't see how it is harmful.
rhino369 10y ago
Obviously there is no damage, but part of schooling is teaching children how to behave in our culture. Our culture believes swears are unprofessional and crass. I certainly wouldn't have any problems with it for 13-18 years olds, but I can see why there is some push back. Especially in an age where saying "son of bitch" could be construed as a perpetuating hostile workplace environment for women. I've got a filthy mouth and I sort of wish I didn't. I'd also be against cleaning up important classic works that use language that isn't really allowed anymore. That is whitewashing history.
- matwood 10y ago
  > Our culture believes swears are unprofessional and crass. Who is 'our' here? Cursing is part of the language in many industries. They are just words with added emphasis. Saying something like 'crap' is akin to saying 'awe shucks' and does a bad job conveying the seriousness of the situation. Using a word like 'fuck' in the same context does convey an additional seriousness of no other word. I don't curse that much, but when I do it is to make a point. If I was stranded on Mars looking at the road ahead as this character did, I absolutely would be cursing.
dragonwriter 10y ago
It's not so much that "America" is uptight about swearing is that the minority that is uptight about it cares very intensely, and the people that aren't also aren't nearly as upset about what needs to be done to placate that minority as the minority is if not placated, and the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
- corybrown 10y ago
  Relevant: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
deleted 10y ago
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djrogers 10y ago
I don't know what age the coursework around the book will be targeted at, but my son could absolutely devour the book at 8 - I held off due to the language. I will be getting him a copy of the friendly version as soon as he's done with the series he's reading now.
- youngtaff 10y ago
  My son read it a couple of times when he was ten and loved it (he'd seen the film first and we wouldn't let him read the book until I'd read it first) Yeh, there's some swearing but ultimately it's partly about context, and partly about parents expectations of their kids and he knows we wouldn't accept the same language from him.
zeveb 10y ago
Well, if parents got to choose their kids' schools rather than being forced to accept what the State gives them, then this wouldn't be an issue (or, rather, it'd be an issue for each school to consider on its own).

mudil 10y ago

I believe that constant swearing is inappropriate. As a matter of fact, in that book it decreased believability for me. An educated astronaut, faced with a possible extinction, would want to leave a worthy testament/diary, and not an expletive-riddled notes.

imode 10y ago
no matter how intelligent or educated you may be, words are just words. if they harm your sensibilities, perhaps try ignoring people. besides, a loud expletive is sometimes required in certain situations. :P
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  Why do we require shirts and shoes at work? Why do we tell our children to say "Yes, sir" and "No, ma'am"? Why do we not wear hats indoors? Yes, words are just words. It doesn't matter if you replace Fuck with shit or damn or pussy. The expression of the word is, in some situations, completely disrespectful of those around you. Respect. There's a severe LACK of it now-a-days.
  - imode 10y ago
    I don't really want to be seeing some person's genitals, mainly because we live in a culture based around hiding your junk (which I'm not opposed to). someone's words, however, are totally transient and I'm free to tune them out. I'm not exactly free to not look at somebody. I can put headphones on. I can't put a blindfold on. hats indoors? really? you think that's disrespectful? there's a severe lack of common sense nowadays, and uppity folks are proof of it. fuck words. :P
    - JustSomeNobody 10y ago
      Yes, hats indoors are disrespectful. Every been to a movie theater?
      - khedoros1 10y ago
        Yes, clothes in public are disrespectful. Ever been to a public bath house? "Hats indoors" is a superset of "hats in a theater" (ignoring outdoor theaters). Saying that something applies to a subset isn't an argument for why it should apply to a superset. There might be a good argument for them being rude. The theater isn't that argument.
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    Having expected patterns of behavior smooths interaction between people. Bringing things back to the book: The dude's in a tough situation, with much less reason to self-censor thoughts he might be having. It makes sense that social niceties would be out the window.
    - JustSomeNobody 10y ago
      But the argument here isn't about the character's situation. It's about swear words in schools. It's less censoring and more of an abridgment.
      - khedoros1 10y ago
        Used in a science curriculum, you're studying the science, and may as well get rid of distracting elements. Bowdlerizing it in the context of a language arts curriculum would still be "in schools", and I'd go the opposite direction there. In that context, I'd say they're an important part of the book, establishing the character that the author wanted to portray, and that you'd be losing lessons on contextual appropriateness of different registers of language. The fact that both situations would occur in a school setting is completely irrelevant to me. I don't think that it should play a part in the "abridgement" decision (although I recognize that it would, and that my opinion on the matter is likely to be controversial). It's more important to me how closely it fits the purpose that it's being put to. In the case of my two examples, scientific vs artistic truths.
dceddia 10y ago
I felt the opposite actually. To me, the swearing made it more believable -- sure, the guy is leaving a diary, but for all he knows, nobody will ever find it. Being stranded on Mars and facing one's own death seems like the perfect occasion for swearing. I thought the swearing in that book was very tastefully done. For me it added a bit of lightness and humor to the whole thing. I'm actually pretty disappointed that they cut so many of the swears from the movie.
- libeclipse 10y ago
  This. The profanity, in my opinion, is really well used in the book. It gives it a raw and authentic feel that you wouldn't otherwise get. You can really see yourself there because he's talking like a human, not some politically correct ideal of a person.
  - jat850 10y ago
    I think your point is fair, but there are also some humans (who are not just politically correct ideals) who don't lace their speech or writing with swears, even under duress or stressful conditions - they're still talking like humans, too. It would be no less raw or authentic if the character was one of these people. To be clear, the character is a foul-mouthed variety of person. But if he weren't, and the book were absent of swearing, it would not seem any less authentic to me.
crooked-v 10y ago
Literally the central point of Watney's character through the whole book is that he refuses to accept he's going to die there and does whatever he can to prevent it.
JustSomeNobody 10y ago
I don't think it's inappropriate as much as I think it's just pure laziness. Can't find a more descriptive word? Drop an F-bomb. Yeah... get on with your bad self!.
lawless123 10y ago
They curse like sailors http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-nasa-censored-dirty-mouthed-astronauts-180953470/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-nasa-censored-d... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msIUMu2PjBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msIUMu2PjBM
- wadetandy 10y ago
  Technically they are sailors.
  - thefalcon 10y ago
    Plus, he's a pirate.
karthikb 10y ago
Have you read the transcripts from the Apollo missions? http://m.imgur.com/Y1klGHr?r http://m.imgur.com/Y1klGHr?r
chaosite 10y ago
Astronauts are people too. Some people swear. See the Apollo 10 logs: https://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/AS10_CM.PDF https://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/AS10_CM.PDF
- gcb0 10y ago
  more relevant, astronauts mostly grow up outside of the Bible belt, hence they swear. People in the Bible belt pass this kind of laws to warp reality and make the big city seem like a dangerous lawles place.
  - aanm1988 10y ago
    A lot of them were in the military too. Guess what, soldiers swear.
allemagne 10y ago
Sure it was inappropriate. Many educated people swear like sailors exactly because it's inappropriate. His profanity was part of his character, and other characters reacted exactly as though it was inappropriate.
27182818284 10y ago
I'm with you. At times it seemed too forced--as if the author thought, "Oops, I forgot to add something to this sentence...a period? No, it needs a 'shit!'" In some cases it really felt like they were just going back over text and adding them in as an afterthought.
saycheese 10y ago
“The consistent findings across the studies suggest that the positive relation between profanity and honesty is robust, and that the relationship found at the individual level indeed translates to the society level,” concludes the final paper, set to be published in the journal of Psychological and Personality Science: https://4f46691c-a-dbcb5f65-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/michalkosinski.com/michalkosinski/Profanity.pdf https://4f46691c-a-dbcb5f65-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/micha...

nsxwolf 10y ago

I don't think America as a country is particularly uptight about swearing. I hear swearing all the time, everywhere I go. We have a cultural norm that adult authority figures do not swear in front of children or provide them with educational materials containing profanity. I can see why this norm may be irksome to some people but I don't see how it is harmful.

rhino369 10y ago

Obviously there is no damage, but part of schooling is teaching children how to behave in our culture. Our culture believes swears are unprofessional and crass. I certainly wouldn't have any problems with it for 13-18 years olds, but I can see why there is some push back. Especially in an age where saying "son of bitch" could be construed as a perpetuating hostile workplace environment for women. I've got a filthy mouth and I sort of wish I didn't. I'd also be against cleaning up important classic works that use language that isn't really allowed anymore. That is whitewashing history.

matwood 10y ago
> Our culture believes swears are unprofessional and crass. Who is 'our' here? Cursing is part of the language in many industries. They are just words with added emphasis. Saying something like 'crap' is akin to saying 'awe shucks' and does a bad job conveying the seriousness of the situation. Using a word like 'fuck' in the same context does convey an additional seriousness of no other word. I don't curse that much, but when I do it is to make a point. If I was stranded on Mars looking at the road ahead as this character did, I absolutely would be cursing.

dragonwriter 10y ago

It's not so much that "America" is uptight about swearing is that the minority that is uptight about it cares very intensely, and the people that aren't also aren't nearly as upset about what needs to be done to placate that minority as the minority is if not placated, and the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

corybrown 10y ago
Relevant: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

deleted 10y ago

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djrogers 10y ago

I don't know what age the coursework around the book will be targeted at, but my son could absolutely devour the book at 8 - I held off due to the language. I will be getting him a copy of the friendly version as soon as he's done with the series he's reading now.

youngtaff 10y ago
My son read it a couple of times when he was ten and loved it (he'd seen the film first and we wouldn't let him read the book until I'd read it first) Yeh, there's some swearing but ultimately it's partly about context, and partly about parents expectations of their kids and he knows we wouldn't accept the same language from him.

zeveb 10y ago

Well, if parents got to choose their kids' schools rather than being forced to accept what the State gives them, then this wouldn't be an issue (or, rather, it'd be an issue for each school to consider on its own).