13 ms·

Who Needs GPS? The Story of Etak's 1985 Car Navigation System

391 points by dirwiz 10y ago

teddyh 10y ago
Interesting to read about alternative, non-centralized, forms of navigation. I wish modern cars which already have all the necessary sensors would use this method as a fallback, since GPS reception is not always available.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  It would also be helpful in case of a hacking event: if the car's local sensors deviate from the gps data significantly, that should throw up a red flag to the car and driver.
  - DaiPlusPlus 10y ago
    > if the car's local sensors deviate from the gps data significantly, that should throw up a red flag to the car and driver. This happens too often for benign reasons (and GPS hacking too rare) for it to be useful. The GPS system in my Ford Focus jumps around wildly if I start the car in an enclosed space before it gets a good lock, and it can be thrown-off under bridges and around tall buildings as it doesn't have A-GPS (does any car have A-GPS?). The worst is when a poor signal is combined with road-snapping - I've had a lot of trouble with off-ramps on partially submerged urban highways, the I-5 in downtown Seattle, for example.
- TYPE_FASTER 10y ago
  I think some smartphone navigation apps do temporary dead reckoning, using the accelerometers that are built into the phone. Dead reckoning using just acceleration data loses accuracy quickly. Using turns to reset position is a really good idea. I think I've seen my iPhone do a similar "recovery" procedure when it gets a little off track.
  - LordKano 10y ago
    I have had my Android phone continues to plot my travel through a tunnel when it couldn't receive GPS signal. It's usually off by a small margin when I reach the end of the tunnel but everything syncs once the signal is acquired again.
    - nix0n 10y ago
      Is your car connected to your Android in some way?
      - LordKano 10y ago
        Just providing power.
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    I've used navigation apps that do this on iPhone, but the navigation portion of the app didn't realize I was in the tunnel, so it kept telling me to make turns on surface roads...
- nradov 10y ago
  Vehicle speed and steering position are available through OBDII. And inexpensive Bluetooth OBDII interfaces are available. But I don't think that navigation app developers have done anything to take advantage of that data for dead reckoning input. http://www.plxdevices.com/category-s/195.htm http://www.plxdevices.com/category-s/195.htm
  - mrpippy 10y ago
    I believe Apple requires CarPlay radios to provide wheel speed and compass readings (along with GPS) to the iPhone, and it gets used by CoreLocation to report location to apps.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Telenav implemented ODBII in their OpenStreetCam software: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetCam http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetCam
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- Lx1oG-AWb6h_ZG0 10y ago
  Every single mapping app has to implement some kind of mapmatching, since you can't rely on the GPS sensors to always be accurate: the GPS position is frequently wrong when you're moving between cell towers , and can be lost for several seconds in cities. Nokia/HERE's implementation (which I was told was very similar to tomtom/garmin's implementation) was written more than a decade ago, and IIRC, every time it encounters a fork in your path, it projects your position on every alternate for a few seconds and chooses the one that best matches the current gps+compass+accelerometer data as your "current" route. The output of this algorithm (which btw is hideously incomprehensible -- I'm talking old c++ with almost no comments) is what is used for map viewing/routing/guidance... the pure gps signal is never used as-is.
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    >which btw is hideously incomprehensible -- I'm talking old c++ with almost no comments What does "old" have to do with it? Modern code is all like that too. Every time I complain about it, including just a day or two right here on HN, I get a bunch of responses saying "I don't need comments, my code is self-documenting". In my experience, most programmers do not use comments much at all, and it's entirely incomprehensible to anyone new to the project.
  - wolfgang42 10y ago
    > the GPS position is frequently wrong when you're moving between cell towers , and can be lost for several seconds in cities. You seem to be thinking of cell tower triangulation, not GPS. I do agree that GPS also does not do particularly well in areas with large buildings: it needs a clear view of the sky which can be hard to come by when there's skyscrapers everywhere.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      Actually, nowadays GPS rarely is used by itself. Instead, you use A-GPS, which is GPS with additionally communication with a server for accuracy.
- DonHopkins 10y ago
  Some of TomTom's high-end devices like the TomTom GO 920 have built-in accelerometers and gyros, and use "Enhanced Positioning Technology" to perform augmented dead reckoning when GPS signals are not available, like in tunnels and highly built-up areas. http://corporate.tomtom.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=318538 http://corporate.tomtom.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=3185... Best navigation with Enhanced Positioning Technology TomTom’s new Enhanced Positioning Technology uses movement and gravity sensors to calculate drivers’ positions when GPS signals are unavailable. TomTom GO 920 T users will have a much more continuous navigation experience as the Enhanced Positioning Technology ensures the device continues to navigate to its destination, even in circumstances where there may not be a direct line-of-sight connection to a satellite. For example, when driving in a city with tall buildings, underpasses or bridges. http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/tomtom-go-930-review-a1042.php http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/tomtom-go-930-review-a1042.php As you drive along you will often encounter places where the Satellite signal is blocked such as tunnels and underground parking lots. TomTom has introduced a system called EPT (Enhanced Position Technology) to keep track of your position using accelerometers. This is not as accurate as GPS but will help guide you in places like Boston where the Big Dig has created a network of underground roads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TomTom#Enhanced_Positioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TomTom#Enhanced_Positioning 2008: Enhanced Positioning TomTom released the GO x30 range in April 2008 based on NavCore 8. New features included IQ Routes, which estimated journey times based on average recorded speeds, rather than speed limits, and Advanced Lane Guidance, an on-screen representation of the correct lane to take. The 930, like the x20, had Enhanced Positioning Technology. GSM HD Traffic receivers, plugging into the car's cigarette lighter, added HD Traffic to the GO range. Refreshed ONE and XL models were released in May 2008, still based on NavCore 7, with an improved speaker. NavCore 8 updates for NavCore 7 devices, including the ONE v3 and v4, were released in June 2008, giving x20 users (only) IQ Routes and Advanced Lane Guidance, with the purchase of new maps.
mzs 10y ago
There was also Honda's Gyrocator a few years earlier: http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1981navigationsystem/page04.html http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1981navigationsyste...
- S_A_P 10y ago
  I remember Alpine electronics had something very similar. I wonder if it was a joint effort?
  - mzs 10y ago
    It was.
- Baeocystin 10y ago
  I'd never seen that before. Neat. Honda has always impressed me as an engineering company.
theamk 10y ago
FYI, here is a part which is still relevant today: "the system continuously ironed out accumulated errors over time by comparing actual distances driven and turns made with road shapes on the map. Honey calls the technique "augmented dead reckoning." That means driving through a long stretch of straight highway could begin to trip up Etak's system, since there were no turns and no distinct roads for the computer to algorithmically seize upon. If that happened, the driver could manually reposition the car cursor onto a location on the map using controls on the display." Those things work, but they are barely "good enough". The biggest problem is, it is easy to lose your position if you are in the city -- maybe you had a few sharp turns, went around the parking cars a couple of times. And once this happens, the system is unlikely to correct itself, your only way will be to manually set position, which most people will not do.
- Animats 10y ago
  No, Etak could recover position after you made a few turns, unless you were in a city with a very regular grid. The recent path would be matched against the map to find the best match. When Honey demoed the system to me, he drove around a vacant lot in Menlo Park to force it to lose position, and then it recovered after a few turns.
  - theamk 10y ago
    I am sure it could recover most of the time, in some places. I am not so sure it would work well in all places -- regular grid is pretty common for example in New York City. You could actually see it in use if you used older GPS units -- back in SA time, the GPS was low precision (~100 meters), but still provided mostly accurate heading/velocitry information. Thus, many GPS navigators required mapmatching (see other thread for details). It would always fail on me in the most annoying moments, and would take quite a while to recover.
- jmcdiesel 10y ago
  Airliners used the same basic system for a long time... and it was, in fact, an airline incident that lead the US gov't to declassify GPS so trans-oceanic flights could be tracked better. To this day though, when I pilot starts up an airliner, they fire up that old system as a backup, its programed down to the gates at the airports, so they set their departure gate and as soon as they start moving, it tracks, through gyros, the whole flight. There can be a lot of drift in the system though, which is what lead to KAL007 being shot down by the soviets, killing almost 300 and prompting Reagan to declassify GPS to prevent that same kind of thing from happening again...
Animats 10y ago
I saw Etak back in its early days, and Stan Honey gave me a demo. I still have one of their rate gyro/2D level units, and a compass unit. There's a motor driving a spinning disk, which warps slightly when the unit is turned, and sensors to detect the warp. The level, for sensing which way is down, is a sealed cup of liquid with the liquid height sensed with four capacitor plates outside the cup. The liquid was proprietary, chosen to not slosh under automotive movement. The whole thing is the size of a soda can. The compass is a 2-axis magnetometer, about 2 inches square. It wasn't mounted on a window; it had to be mounted in the horizontal plane, preferably far from metal. The original Etak units always had the map oriented with north at the top. That was the way sailors used maps. Honey said they'd discovered that about 20% of the population could not cope with a map that wasn't aligned with the direction they were going, which is why they started rotating the map based on vehicle travel. Now everybody does that, and that's why.
- mmastrac 10y ago
  > about 20% of the population could not cope with a map that wasn't aligned with the direction they were going That's me. I have a tough time orienting maps in my head. I still use a mnemonic for compass directions and (occasionally) use my left hand as an L to make sure I'm not screwing it up. I don't know if there is any research into what the structural differences of brains that suffer from this might be, let alone if there is a name for it.
  - callinyouin 10y ago
    I have a problem with directions / general spatial awareness that sounds similar to what you have. I have a hard time plotting a route to a known location in my head in the city I've lived in for 10+ years, but strangely have no problem getting there once I start driving/biking/walking (depending on how familiar I am with the destination, obviously). I've made it a point to study maps and randomly test whether or not I can point out cardinal directions when I'm out and about and that seems to have helped a bit, but I have a hard time navigating new and unfamiliar places. Truly big cities like Chicago are impossible to navigate. I don't know what I'd do without GPS.
  - 10y ago
guyzero 10y ago
Pretty amazing that they did all this before the current generation of MEMS sensors.
anfractuosity 10y ago
Regarding dead reckoning - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/10833087/MoD-creates-coldest-object-in-the-universe-to-trump-GPS.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/10833087/MoD-crea... seems very interesting. If anyone has any up to date information or papers on this approach, I'd be very interested. (It seems to be also known as a quantum compass)
kilroy123 10y ago
I would love to see a video of this thing in action. Never heard about this system before.
- mzs 10y ago
  very good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHCCjlSWbHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHCCjlSWbHE
oh_sigh 10y ago
A little side note Stan Honey is also the person who spearheaded the virtual 'yellow line' visible on every NFL game.
- sidegrid 10y ago
  This is stated in the article.
  - oh_sigh 10y ago
    Yes, but not until the very end(which is why I called it a side note). I'm assuming this article follows the journalistic inverted pyramid paradigm.
DonHopkins 10y ago
"Etak eventually became a part of TomTom, ensuring that its map data, some of which was first digitized back during the Navigator's development in 1984, would live on to this day." The story of how TomTom and not Garmin ended up owning the data originally digitized at Etak is interesting. At the time, there were only two digital map companies: Tele Atlas (from which TomTom got their map data) and Navteq (from which Garmin got their map data). From Wikipedia [1]: "On July 23, 2007, a €2 billion offer for the company by navigation system maker TomTom was accepted by the Tele Atlas board. This was then trumped by a €2.3 billion offer from United States-based rival Garmin on October 31, 2007 initiating a bidding war for Tele Atlas. TomTom responded by upping their bid to €2.9 billion, an offer which was again approved by the board of Tele Atlas. Garmin had been expected to counterbid once again: with Tele Atlas' main global rival Navteq subject to a takeover bid from Nokia, the company had stated that it did not wish both companies to fall into the hands of rivals. However, after striking a content agreement with Navteq through the year 2015, Garmin withdrew its takeover offer, clearing the way for TomTom. On December 4, 2007, TomTom shareholders approved the takeover. The European Commissioner for Competition cleared the takeover in May 2008, and it closed in June." TomTom (where I worked at the time) was shocked and dismayed that Garmin outbid them by €300 million on Tele Atlas, because while it made a lot of sense for TomTom to buy their own map data supplier, it would have been prohibitively complex and expensive for Garmin, who used Navteq data, to switch map data sources and retool their entire map data digestion, distribution and error correction pipelines. TomTom was so determined to buy Tele Atlas and keep it out of Garmin's hands, that they raised their bid by €900 million. In the meantime, Garmin renegotiated their deal with Navteq, so they didn't have to pay as much for the data, and didn't have to switch map suppliers. The stunt that Garmin pulled of was, in my opinion, an ingenious head-fake that cost TomTom an enormous amount of money, almost a billion euros, and at the same time saved Garmin a whole lot of money by enabling them to renegotiate a better deal with Navteq, who was faced with losing their major customer if they didn't lower their prices. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tele_Atlas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tele_Atlas
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  That sounds like it would be an amazing plot point for a show like Billions. Garmin basically did the impossible: force a supplier of a scarce product to renegotiate their position. Amazing story, thanks for posting.
strictnein 10y ago
Surprised no one has mentioned its similarity to a Pip Boy: https://b.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagecache/inline-small/inline/2015/06/3047828-inline-newetak-screen3.jpg https://b.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagec... And a Fallout Pip Boy for reference: https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/120/images/16096-1-1334124058.jpg https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/120/images/16096-1...
- martin-adams 10y ago
  I'm not surprised because someone just did
- platz 10y ago
  it also looks like a "multi function display" in the cockpit of an F-15, for controlling radar, weapons, etc..
- feintruled 10y ago
  The Fallout similarities struck me too - in that universe technology diverged well before the micro-processor stage, with some of our current technology reimagined with a 1950s spin. This gadget fits the bill superbly!
- hvidgaard 10y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if that was the inspiration for the Pip Boy. Fallout is absolutely loaded with obscure references in a Mad Max inspired world.
yvsong 10y ago
This seems a great story of technical ingenuity without top notch business execution. Would like to see an analysis on how the business should or could have been developed.
twic 10y ago
> That "heading-up" technique reminded Honey of ancient Polynesian navigation concepts that he had read about during his studies of navigation in previous years. The ancient mariners of that region navigated the seas by relying on a series of environmental cues, such as the positions of islands around them, combined with a mental perception of themselves in the center of the conceptual navigational space in their heads. With that in mind, Honey decided to call his new company Etak, which is a Polynesian term for moving navigational reference points. Ah yes, the Polynesian stick charts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11522372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11522372
shagie 10y ago
Another system from back in the days of pre-very accurate gps: The advanced snowplow program http://www.path.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/documents/intel74.pdf http://www.path.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/documents/i... and from archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/20070112182654/http://www.path.berkeley.edu/PATH/Research/snowplow/ http://web.archive.org/web/20070112182654/http://www.path.be... Picture driving a snow plow in the California sierras in whiteout conditions. On one side of you is a steep cliff with no guard rails (not that guard rails would - the snow is higher than the rails). So, they embedded magnets in the road that had data in them (the way they were organized): > Two primary technologies are being used in the ASP: detecting the plow's position relative to the center of the lane, to assist the operator in steering; and detecting obstacles, for collision warning. PATH's magnetic marker guidance system provides guidance information. This system was developed for automated vehicle guidance and control applications. A single magnetometer array comprised of seven magnetic sensors was installed at the front of the snowplow. Signal processing of the magnetometers provides lateral position measurement relative to the center of the lane, longitudinal position relative to mileposts, and yaw angle estimate. Binary coding of the magnetic markers when installed (north pole up vs. south pole up) also provides information about roadway characteristics, e.g. the direction and radius of the curves. The obstacle detection system uses a commercially available Eaton-Vorad radar, incorporating a digital interface developed by AHMCT in conjunction with Eaton Vorad.
CalChris 10y ago
Stan Honey is a legend in sailing as well as in technology. He's won the Jules Verne trophy as navigator, fastest round the world (48 days). He's won the Volvo. PacCup with Nolan Bushnell. Rolex Yachtsman of the year (his wife Sally has won twice). He did the NFL line effects, same for NASCAR and NHL. He did the Americas Cup effects. He did Sailmail. Multiple patents. And he's an incredibly nice guy. Dennis Connor is the best American yachtsman, but Honey ain't far behind.
- smackdabby 10y ago
  So he's responsible for those annoying digital ads on the glass during NHL broadcasts? Yuck.
neotek 10y ago
Bushnell is one of my all-time heroes. He struck the motherlode with Atari, and then parlayed that success into a bunch of different ventures that were way ahead of their time, most of which failed spectacularly, none of which failed spectacularly enough to dissuade him from pressing on to the next thing. I truly believe he is as much a visionary as Steve Jobs ever was, the difference being that Jobs had the patience to wait for technology to catch up to his vision, whereas Bushnell did his level best to invent it.
squarefoot 10y ago
The way it kept the positioning looks really complicated, why not reuse one of the old LORAN technologies? By that time it should have been already demilitarized and transmitters were probably a lot less expensive to build.

391 points by dirwiz 10y ago

Interesting to read about alternative, non-centralized, forms of navigation. I wish modern cars which already have all the necessary sensors would use this method as a fallback, since GPS reception is not always available.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
It would also be helpful in case of a hacking event: if the car's local sensors deviate from the gps data significantly, that should throw up a red flag to the car and driver.
- DaiPlusPlus 10y ago
  > if the car's local sensors deviate from the gps data significantly, that should throw up a red flag to the car and driver. This happens too often for benign reasons (and GPS hacking too rare) for it to be useful. The GPS system in my Ford Focus jumps around wildly if I start the car in an enclosed space before it gets a good lock, and it can be thrown-off under bridges and around tall buildings as it doesn't have A-GPS (does any car have A-GPS?). The worst is when a poor signal is combined with road-snapping - I've had a lot of trouble with off-ramps on partially submerged urban highways, the I-5 in downtown Seattle, for example.
TYPE_FASTER 10y ago
I think some smartphone navigation apps do temporary dead reckoning, using the accelerometers that are built into the phone. Dead reckoning using just acceleration data loses accuracy quickly. Using turns to reset position is a really good idea. I think I've seen my iPhone do a similar "recovery" procedure when it gets a little off track.
- LordKano 10y ago
  I have had my Android phone continues to plot my travel through a tunnel when it couldn't receive GPS signal. It's usually off by a small margin when I reach the end of the tunnel but everything syncs once the signal is acquired again.
  - nix0n 10y ago
    Is your car connected to your Android in some way?
    - LordKano 10y ago
      Just providing power.
- kalleboo 10y ago
  I've used navigation apps that do this on iPhone, but the navigation portion of the app didn't realize I was in the tunnel, so it kept telling me to make turns on surface roads...
nradov 10y ago
Vehicle speed and steering position are available through OBDII. And inexpensive Bluetooth OBDII interfaces are available. But I don't think that navigation app developers have done anything to take advantage of that data for dead reckoning input. http://www.plxdevices.com/category-s/195.htm http://www.plxdevices.com/category-s/195.htm
- mrpippy 10y ago
  I believe Apple requires CarPlay radios to provide wheel speed and compass readings (along with GPS) to the iPhone, and it gets used by CoreLocation to report location to apps.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Telenav implemented ODBII in their OpenStreetCam software: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetCam http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetCam
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Lx1oG-AWb6h_ZG0 10y ago
Every single mapping app has to implement some kind of mapmatching, since you can't rely on the GPS sensors to always be accurate: the GPS position is frequently wrong when you're moving between cell towers , and can be lost for several seconds in cities. Nokia/HERE's implementation (which I was told was very similar to tomtom/garmin's implementation) was written more than a decade ago, and IIRC, every time it encounters a fork in your path, it projects your position on every alternate for a few seconds and chooses the one that best matches the current gps+compass+accelerometer data as your "current" route. The output of this algorithm (which btw is hideously incomprehensible -- I'm talking old c++ with almost no comments) is what is used for map viewing/routing/guidance... the pure gps signal is never used as-is.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  >which btw is hideously incomprehensible -- I'm talking old c++ with almost no comments What does "old" have to do with it? Modern code is all like that too. Every time I complain about it, including just a day or two right here on HN, I get a bunch of responses saying "I don't need comments, my code is self-documenting". In my experience, most programmers do not use comments much at all, and it's entirely incomprehensible to anyone new to the project.
- wolfgang42 10y ago
  > the GPS position is frequently wrong when you're moving between cell towers , and can be lost for several seconds in cities. You seem to be thinking of cell tower triangulation, not GPS. I do agree that GPS also does not do particularly well in areas with large buildings: it needs a clear view of the sky which can be hard to come by when there's skyscrapers everywhere.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    Actually, nowadays GPS rarely is used by itself. Instead, you use A-GPS, which is GPS with additionally communication with a server for accuracy.
DonHopkins 10y ago
Some of TomTom's high-end devices like the TomTom GO 920 have built-in accelerometers and gyros, and use "Enhanced Positioning Technology" to perform augmented dead reckoning when GPS signals are not available, like in tunnels and highly built-up areas. http://corporate.tomtom.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=318538 http://corporate.tomtom.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=3185... Best navigation with Enhanced Positioning Technology TomTom’s new Enhanced Positioning Technology uses movement and gravity sensors to calculate drivers’ positions when GPS signals are unavailable. TomTom GO 920 T users will have a much more continuous navigation experience as the Enhanced Positioning Technology ensures the device continues to navigate to its destination, even in circumstances where there may not be a direct line-of-sight connection to a satellite. For example, when driving in a city with tall buildings, underpasses or bridges. http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/tomtom-go-930-review-a1042.php http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/tomtom-go-930-review-a1042.php As you drive along you will often encounter places where the Satellite signal is blocked such as tunnels and underground parking lots. TomTom has introduced a system called EPT (Enhanced Position Technology) to keep track of your position using accelerometers. This is not as accurate as GPS but will help guide you in places like Boston where the Big Dig has created a network of underground roads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TomTom#Enhanced_Positioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TomTom#Enhanced_Positioning 2008: Enhanced Positioning TomTom released the GO x30 range in April 2008 based on NavCore 8. New features included IQ Routes, which estimated journey times based on average recorded speeds, rather than speed limits, and Advanced Lane Guidance, an on-screen representation of the correct lane to take. The 930, like the x20, had Enhanced Positioning Technology. GSM HD Traffic receivers, plugging into the car's cigarette lighter, added HD Traffic to the GO range. Refreshed ONE and XL models were released in May 2008, still based on NavCore 7, with an improved speaker. NavCore 8 updates for NavCore 7 devices, including the ONE v3 and v4, were released in June 2008, giving x20 users (only) IQ Routes and Advanced Lane Guidance, with the purchase of new maps.

mzs 10y ago

There was also Honda's Gyrocator a few years earlier: http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1981navigationsystem/page04.html http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1981navigationsyste...

S_A_P 10y ago
I remember Alpine electronics had something very similar. I wonder if it was a joint effort?
- mzs 10y ago
  It was.
Baeocystin 10y ago
I'd never seen that before. Neat. Honda has always impressed me as an engineering company.

theamk 10y ago

FYI, here is a part which is still relevant today: "the system continuously ironed out accumulated errors over time by comparing actual distances driven and turns made with road shapes on the map. Honey calls the technique "augmented dead reckoning." That means driving through a long stretch of straight highway could begin to trip up Etak's system, since there were no turns and no distinct roads for the computer to algorithmically seize upon. If that happened, the driver could manually reposition the car cursor onto a location on the map using controls on the display." Those things work, but they are barely "good enough". The biggest problem is, it is easy to lose your position if you are in the city -- maybe you had a few sharp turns, went around the parking cars a couple of times. And once this happens, the system is unlikely to correct itself, your only way will be to manually set position, which most people will not do.

Animats 10y ago
No, Etak could recover position after you made a few turns, unless you were in a city with a very regular grid. The recent path would be matched against the map to find the best match. When Honey demoed the system to me, he drove around a vacant lot in Menlo Park to force it to lose position, and then it recovered after a few turns.
- theamk 10y ago
  I am sure it could recover most of the time, in some places. I am not so sure it would work well in all places -- regular grid is pretty common for example in New York City. You could actually see it in use if you used older GPS units -- back in SA time, the GPS was low precision (~100 meters), but still provided mostly accurate heading/velocitry information. Thus, many GPS navigators required mapmatching (see other thread for details). It would always fail on me in the most annoying moments, and would take quite a while to recover.
jmcdiesel 10y ago
Airliners used the same basic system for a long time... and it was, in fact, an airline incident that lead the US gov't to declassify GPS so trans-oceanic flights could be tracked better. To this day though, when I pilot starts up an airliner, they fire up that old system as a backup, its programed down to the gates at the airports, so they set their departure gate and as soon as they start moving, it tracks, through gyros, the whole flight. There can be a lot of drift in the system though, which is what lead to KAL007 being shot down by the soviets, killing almost 300 and prompting Reagan to declassify GPS to prevent that same kind of thing from happening again...

Animats 10y ago

I saw Etak back in its early days, and Stan Honey gave me a demo. I still have one of their rate gyro/2D level units, and a compass unit. There's a motor driving a spinning disk, which warps slightly when the unit is turned, and sensors to detect the warp. The level, for sensing which way is down, is a sealed cup of liquid with the liquid height sensed with four capacitor plates outside the cup. The liquid was proprietary, chosen to not slosh under automotive movement. The whole thing is the size of a soda can. The compass is a 2-axis magnetometer, about 2 inches square. It wasn't mounted on a window; it had to be mounted in the horizontal plane, preferably far from metal. The original Etak units always had the map oriented with north at the top. That was the way sailors used maps. Honey said they'd discovered that about 20% of the population could not cope with a map that wasn't aligned with the direction they were going, which is why they started rotating the map based on vehicle travel. Now everybody does that, and that's why.

mmastrac 10y ago
> about 20% of the population could not cope with a map that wasn't aligned with the direction they were going That's me. I have a tough time orienting maps in my head. I still use a mnemonic for compass directions and (occasionally) use my left hand as an L to make sure I'm not screwing it up. I don't know if there is any research into what the structural differences of brains that suffer from this might be, let alone if there is a name for it.
- callinyouin 10y ago
  I have a problem with directions / general spatial awareness that sounds similar to what you have. I have a hard time plotting a route to a known location in my head in the city I've lived in for 10+ years, but strangely have no problem getting there once I start driving/biking/walking (depending on how familiar I am with the destination, obviously). I've made it a point to study maps and randomly test whether or not I can point out cardinal directions when I'm out and about and that seems to have helped a bit, but I have a hard time navigating new and unfamiliar places. Truly big cities like Chicago are impossible to navigate. I don't know what I'd do without GPS.
- 10y ago

guyzero 10y ago

Pretty amazing that they did all this before the current generation of MEMS sensors.

anfractuosity 10y ago

Regarding dead reckoning - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/10833087/MoD-creates-coldest-object-in-the-universe-to-trump-GPS.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/10833087/MoD-crea... seems very interesting. If anyone has any up to date information or papers on this approach, I'd be very interested. (It seems to be also known as a quantum compass)

kilroy123 10y ago

I would love to see a video of this thing in action. Never heard about this system before.

mzs 10y ago
very good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHCCjlSWbHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHCCjlSWbHE

oh_sigh 10y ago

A little side note Stan Honey is also the person who spearheaded the virtual 'yellow line' visible on every NFL game.

sidegrid 10y ago
This is stated in the article.
- oh_sigh 10y ago
  Yes, but not until the very end(which is why I called it a side note). I'm assuming this article follows the journalistic inverted pyramid paradigm.

DonHopkins 10y ago

"Etak eventually became a part of TomTom, ensuring that its map data, some of which was first digitized back during the Navigator's development in 1984, would live on to this day." The story of how TomTom and not Garmin ended up owning the data originally digitized at Etak is interesting. At the time, there were only two digital map companies: Tele Atlas (from which TomTom got their map data) and Navteq (from which Garmin got their map data). From Wikipedia [1]: "On July 23, 2007, a €2 billion offer for the company by navigation system maker TomTom was accepted by the Tele Atlas board. This was then trumped by a €2.3 billion offer from United States-based rival Garmin on October 31, 2007 initiating a bidding war for Tele Atlas. TomTom responded by upping their bid to €2.9 billion, an offer which was again approved by the board of Tele Atlas. Garmin had been expected to counterbid once again: with Tele Atlas' main global rival Navteq subject to a takeover bid from Nokia, the company had stated that it did not wish both companies to fall into the hands of rivals. However, after striking a content agreement with Navteq through the year 2015, Garmin withdrew its takeover offer, clearing the way for TomTom. On December 4, 2007, TomTom shareholders approved the takeover. The European Commissioner for Competition cleared the takeover in May 2008, and it closed in June." TomTom (where I worked at the time) was shocked and dismayed that Garmin outbid them by €300 million on Tele Atlas, because while it made a lot of sense for TomTom to buy their own map data supplier, it would have been prohibitively complex and expensive for Garmin, who used Navteq data, to switch map data sources and retool their entire map data digestion, distribution and error correction pipelines. TomTom was so determined to buy Tele Atlas and keep it out of Garmin's hands, that they raised their bid by €900 million. In the meantime, Garmin renegotiated their deal with Navteq, so they didn't have to pay as much for the data, and didn't have to switch map suppliers. The stunt that Garmin pulled of was, in my opinion, an ingenious head-fake that cost TomTom an enormous amount of money, almost a billion euros, and at the same time saved Garmin a whole lot of money by enabling them to renegotiate a better deal with Navteq, who was faced with losing their major customer if they didn't lower their prices. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tele_Atlas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tele_Atlas

Cyph0n 10y ago
That sounds like it would be an amazing plot point for a show like Billions. Garmin basically did the impossible: force a supplier of a scarce product to renegotiate their position. Amazing story, thanks for posting.

strictnein 10y ago

Surprised no one has mentioned its similarity to a Pip Boy: https://b.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagecache/inline-small/inline/2015/06/3047828-inline-newetak-screen3.jpg https://b.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagec... And a Fallout Pip Boy for reference: https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/120/images/16096-1-1334124058.jpg https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/120/images/16096-1...

martin-adams 10y ago
I'm not surprised because someone just did
platz 10y ago
it also looks like a "multi function display" in the cockpit of an F-15, for controlling radar, weapons, etc..
feintruled 10y ago
The Fallout similarities struck me too - in that universe technology diverged well before the micro-processor stage, with some of our current technology reimagined with a 1950s spin. This gadget fits the bill superbly!
hvidgaard 10y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if that was the inspiration for the Pip Boy. Fallout is absolutely loaded with obscure references in a Mad Max inspired world.

yvsong 10y ago

This seems a great story of technical ingenuity without top notch business execution. Would like to see an analysis on how the business should or could have been developed.

twic 10y ago

> That "heading-up" technique reminded Honey of ancient Polynesian navigation concepts that he had read about during his studies of navigation in previous years. The ancient mariners of that region navigated the seas by relying on a series of environmental cues, such as the positions of islands around them, combined with a mental perception of themselves in the center of the conceptual navigational space in their heads. With that in mind, Honey decided to call his new company Etak, which is a Polynesian term for moving navigational reference points. Ah yes, the Polynesian stick charts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11522372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11522372

shagie 10y ago

Another system from back in the days of pre-very accurate gps: The advanced snowplow program http://www.path.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/documents/intel74.pdf http://www.path.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/documents/i... and from archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/20070112182654/http://www.path.berkeley.edu/PATH/Research/snowplow/ http://web.archive.org/web/20070112182654/http://www.path.be... Picture driving a snow plow in the California sierras in whiteout conditions. On one side of you is a steep cliff with no guard rails (not that guard rails would - the snow is higher than the rails). So, they embedded magnets in the road that had data in them (the way they were organized): > Two primary technologies are being used in the ASP: detecting the plow's position relative to the center of the lane, to assist the operator in steering; and detecting obstacles, for collision warning. PATH's magnetic marker guidance system provides guidance information. This system was developed for automated vehicle guidance and control applications. A single magnetometer array comprised of seven magnetic sensors was installed at the front of the snowplow. Signal processing of the magnetometers provides lateral position measurement relative to the center of the lane, longitudinal position relative to mileposts, and yaw angle estimate. Binary coding of the magnetic markers when installed (north pole up vs. south pole up) also provides information about roadway characteristics, e.g. the direction and radius of the curves. The obstacle detection system uses a commercially available Eaton-Vorad radar, incorporating a digital interface developed by AHMCT in conjunction with Eaton Vorad.

CalChris 10y ago

Stan Honey is a legend in sailing as well as in technology. He's won the Jules Verne trophy as navigator, fastest round the world (48 days). He's won the Volvo. PacCup with Nolan Bushnell. Rolex Yachtsman of the year (his wife Sally has won twice). He did the NFL line effects, same for NASCAR and NHL. He did the Americas Cup effects. He did Sailmail. Multiple patents. And he's an incredibly nice guy. Dennis Connor is the best American yachtsman, but Honey ain't far behind.

smackdabby 10y ago
So he's responsible for those annoying digital ads on the glass during NHL broadcasts? Yuck.

neotek 10y ago

Bushnell is one of my all-time heroes. He struck the motherlode with Atari, and then parlayed that success into a bunch of different ventures that were way ahead of their time, most of which failed spectacularly, none of which failed spectacularly enough to dissuade him from pressing on to the next thing. I truly believe he is as much a visionary as Steve Jobs ever was, the difference being that Jobs had the patience to wait for technology to catch up to his vision, whereas Bushnell did his level best to invent it.

squarefoot 10y ago

The way it kept the positioning looks really complicated, why not reuse one of the old LORAN technologies? By that time it should have been already demilitarized and transmitters were probably a lot less expensive to build.