8 ms·

The way this is worded is weird: Claim: "In Sweden there are a number of 'no-go zones' where criminality and gangs have taken over and where the emergency serv

by trendia 10y ago

The way this is worded is weird: Claim: "In Sweden there are a number of 'no-go zones' where criminality and gangs have taken over and where the emergency services do not dare to go." Facts: No. In a report published in February 2016, the Swedish Police Authority identified 53 residential areas around the country that have become increasingly marred by crime, social unrest and insecurity. These places have been incorrectly labelled 'no-go zones'. What is true, however, is that in several of these areas the police have experienced difficulties fulfilling their duties; but it is not the case that the police do not go to them or that Swedish law does not apply there

koonsolo 10y ago
Same as in Belgium then. They even throw stones at fire-fighters when they are doing their job. So nothing to worry about, right? And I don't know if it is the same in Sweden, but you are not really politically allowed to say what kind of people live in those neighborhoods. So again, nothing to worry about.
- trendia 10y ago
  Well according to this article, crime across the whole country has gone down, so who really cares if there are pockets where the violence is so bad that police can't do their job? I mean, who cares if there are 30 gernade attacks in Malmo [0] as long as overall deaths in Stockholm habe gone down by more than 30? [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_S...
  - autokad 10y ago
    "The number of confirmed or suspected shootings was 20 per cent higher in 2014 than in 2006. The statistics also show that 17 people were killed with firearms in 2011, while the corresponding figure in 2015 was 33." does anyone else find it strange how they keep jumping around in (what feels like arbitrary) years?
    - hogrammer 10y ago
      It's not strange if you know why they're doing it.
    - Baeocystin 10y ago
      Looks like cherry-picking to me.
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    Exactly. We worry about those pockets of crime/violence and the media attention is disproportionate here too. The international attention is just mind blowing seeing as nothing has changed over the last decade (these areas were shit 10 years ago too!). But all this doesn't mean the country suddenly is on the verge of collapse. Yes it's true: there are pockets where Ambulances are stoned by local kids and need police escorts. That's not a vicious rumor. It's a tiny area (few blocks) of the country though. I'm sure many countries have terrible areas. How our areas somehow turned on ambulance and firefighters is a complete mystery to me though.
- onion2k 10y ago
  Same as in Belgium then. They even throw stones at fire-fighters when they are doing their job. So nothing to worry about, right? I wouldn't be surprised if every country has areas people claim are like that. England: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3647355/Firefighters-attacked-ten-times-week-Britain-including-thugs-throwing-bottles-bricks-paving-stones.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3647355/Firefighters... Scotland: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bonfire-night-marred-attacks-firefighters-9206541 http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bonfire-nigh... Wales: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/youths-attacked-firefighters-fireworks-tried-12113952 http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/youths-attacked... USA: http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2015/12/01/attacks-firefighters-not-rare/76604000/ http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2015/12/01/at... Ireland: http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/watch-sickening-moment-thugs-attack-7882192 http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/watch-sickening-mo... Those links are only to illustrate what people claim happen. They're not necessarily representative of what things are actually like. Talking to people who live in these places is just about the only way to get a good idea.
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
    Reports of youths stoning firemen are in the newspaper every couple of months in my UK city. Firemen report it as truth too, it has been specifically mentioned when I've visited fire stations (Scout visits). The youths are never charged from what I can tell, the police just disperse them. I assume this means the incidents don't go in to crime statistics. That's one way of "bringing down violent crime", don't arrest the perps; that may be over-cynical.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      > my UK city > That's one way of "bringing down violent crime", don't arrest the perps It is overly cynical. The UK has two sets of crime statistics: police recorded crime and the annual crime survey. Even the police recorded crime stats (which aren't regarded as statistically reliable) don't only rely on arrests, but include all reported crimes. So police arresting or not wouldn't affect the numbers. But the annual crime survey (which is statistically reliable) doesn't rely on police recording.
- rmc 10y ago
  > Same as in Belgium then. They even throw stones at fire-fighters when they are doing their job. So nothing to worry about, right? Who reports that people do that? Tabloid newspapers? They've been lying about that for decades. After the 1989 Hillsbourogh disaster (where people died due to health & safety issues, and negligence from the police), tabloid newspaper The Sun wrote a full page headline accusing Liverpool fans of attacking police who were trying to save people. It was a complete fabrication. "Those people" attacking our police/first responders is a common lie that sells tabloid newspapers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster#The_Sun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster#The_Sun
  - reacweb 10y ago
    you mean that the cost issues of bulletproof vest for firefighter were also fabrication ?
    - peteretep 10y ago
      Presumably, as you haven't added any source for your anecfact?
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        Plenty of sources tell us that emergency services in metropolitan areas in Sweden wear protective vests. There are cost issues, and there are image issues, i.e. if the firemen are protected against you stabbing them, it's "militarization" and you'll see them as your enemy. E.g. Svenska Dagbladet (no fringe publication, a major newspaper): https://www.svd.se/ambulanspersonal-far-skyddsvastar https://www.svd.se/ambulanspersonal-far-skyddsvastar Of course, this is not unique. Plenty of American cities have the same: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime-and-courts/madison-firefighters-add-extra-layer-of-protection-with-bulletproof-vests/article_5f0fc4ce-0f08-51ed-8a25-79f99092d08b.html http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime-and-courts/madi...
  - kahrkunne 10y ago
    Not Belgium but the Netherlands, I've seen it myself. Here it's a public issue, even being discussed in parliament.
- threeseed 10y ago
  You can say whatever you want. What's important and this release is trying to demonstrate is that if you're going to make claims then provide the evidence. Sure you could blame Muslims for those no-go areas. But you need to demonstrate it. And demonstrate absent other factors like socioeconomic status, unemployment rate etc.
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  > So nothing to worry about, right Who said there is nothing to worry? > but you are not really politically allowed to say what kind of people live in those neighborhoods. First, source for not allowed to say. Second, what do you want to say?
- piva00 10y ago
  No, not like that at the fucking all. I live in Stockholm, I just came today to my home from a friend's place that is in one of these pesky little maps marking it as a "no-go zone". Seriously, there's nothing alarming there at all, it's a very normal area a little bit outside the center with more affordable housing (compared to the center of Stockholm but not even near "cheap") and that's about it. I've stayed on that friend's house for the whole of January, daily living there and haven't heard about a single crime happening. Asked my friend's flatmates just now and they laughed about it. Same thing for a friend that lives inside what some maps label as "no-go zone" in Kista, nothing happened there at all for the past year. So seriously, the alarmism here is very extrapolated compared to the actual risk. Compare to Belgium as you want but be a bit more honest about your utter ignorance instead of just a "And I don't know about Sweden"-trumpesque discourse.
  - ra1n85 10y ago
    What's with the uptick in "grenade attacks"? Seems like there's been more in 2016 than in the four year period leading up to 2012? Really curious as to how this is a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swe...
    - mikko-apo 10y ago
      I don't know about Sweden, but in Finland the number of firebomb/grenade attacks increased a lot in the past few years. All of them due Finnish born right wing zealots trying to burn down the shelters housing the refugees. Luckily there seems to be less attacks in the last half a year. I think there's been more attacks, but here's a summary of some of them: http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-8517586 http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-8517586 (Dec 2015, in finnish)
    - cfv 10y ago
      Reading your link I counted a hundred and twenty in 19 years. For about 9 million people in Sweden, that's a 120/(19 * 9 * 10^6) change of something happening each year. That's insanely small, compared to, say, the amount of people dying in bathtubs while intoxicated, which works out to 4377/(19 * 9 * 10^6) assuming this is a stagnant problem. (http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-13-216 http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/14...) Look, I'm fully aware you need to panic, and I'm fully aware this need is being satisfied by a bunch of cronies standing to make heaps of money on your panic. Just know your fear is not justified and should not be the reason for aiding the raise of fascism in europe.
- peteretep 10y ago
  > not really politically > allowed to say what kind > of people live in those > neighborhoods Same answer it's been for the last 500 years? Poor people with rampant underemployment? Wonder what America would be like today if they'd cleared out all Italian and Irish immigrants 100 years ago because of immigrant ghettos?
  - koonsolo 10y ago
    Go ask the Native Americans what they think about all those immigrants.
    - peteretep 10y ago
      You appear to have confused the word immigrant and the word invader?
      - chappi42 10y ago
        It might increasingly become difficult to differ: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26329018 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26329018 And you don't think that certainly more than half a billion africans would deserve to live a much better live than what is possible where they live now? Solution imho only can be to 'fix' those countries and 'fix' the birthrates. Globalization also means that certain customs no longer are tolerable...
- paublyrne 10y ago
  There are areas in Dublin where children and teenagers throw stones at fire brigades and they are certainly not immigrants. These are old white Irish areas. What sets them apart is high levels of unemployment, poverty and under employment.
  - anjc 10y ago
    What sets the no-go zones apart in places like Sweden is that, not only are they filled with poor unemployed people, but those people have a different ideology and come from third world countries, and therefore the crimes perpetrated are different from that of the indigenous population. There isn't even a street in Dublin in which that's the case. There are certainly places in Dublin where you might be more likely to get yourself robbed in, but beaten up for drinking alcohol or walking as a white person with a Muslim girl? Nowhere.
    - alkonaut 10y ago
      So the latter is much worse?
      - anjc 10y ago
        Eh, of course it is?
    - paublyrne 10y ago
      but beaten up for drinking alcohol or walking as a white person with a Muslim girl? And where are you suggesting such a place does exist? In Sweden? If you have any links to reports of incidents like you're describing I'd love to see them.
      - anjc 10y ago
        I've seen scores of videos on Youtube showing that these attacks, if not normal, do happen at least in Sweden. You can read the stats in the thread again for proof, or search for videos yourself if you don't believe the stats. And I can anecdotally state that I've witnessed attacks first hand in Muslim areas in both Belgium and France due to ideological reasons (e.g. a girl in my party was assaulted because she touched a man's arm and apparently shouldn't have). I've lived in the worst parts of Dublin and yeah, problems can arise, but they're non-ideological ones. Which means that you can avoid them by using general street smarts.
- ZeroGravitas 10y ago
  The kids near me do that. They even set fire to abandoned buildings in order to ensure the fire-fighters show up. They're not migrants, refugees or any kind of ethnic minority though. Just poor and bored.
- alicorn 10y ago
  I think one of the problems when talking about these issues is the frame of reference. I have lived in the most dangerous part of our town (Linköping) for several years. I come from Latvia where a 'dangerous' part of a town meant that you do not go there because you will be robbed / knifed / shot in broad daylight. It was absolutely not the case with the most dangerous part of Linköping, even though people who had not had a direct experience with the place kept talking about it in the same way as I would talk about a true 'no-go' zone in Latvia. The worst thing that happened to me there was that my bicycle got stolen because I had forgotten to lock it overnight. My kid was playing outside unsupervised every day, I was coming home alone in the middle of night etc. Never had a single unpleasant experience. The same is true about rape. In Sweden, the definition of rape and sexual abuse is incredibly broad. I know a person who got accused of sexual abuse by his wife because she said he had slipped up a finger in her vagina while asleep without her consent. Once. Several years ago. Can you imagine any other country where a case like this would ever be looked at even remotely seriously? Moreover, incidents involving sexual abuse are reported a lot more often, because everyone is a lot more informed about what consent means and what their rights are. It is highly unusual in the global context. So rape in Sweden is nothing like rape pretty much anywhere else in the world. I could talk a lot more about these issues, but these two points are the most important to keep in mind when discussing crime in Sweden relative to crime everywhere else in the world.
  - literallycancer 10y ago
    Exactly, using the Swedish tabloid definition of a "no-go zone", the poorer parts of most US cities would be no-go zones.
    - sundvor 10y ago
      This. The relative safety between Scandinavian countries and most of the US really needs to be brought up more. As far as gun violence goes, the US almost turned into a no-go country as far as myself is concerned.
    - deleted 10y ago
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- glenndebacker 10y ago
  "but you are not really politically allowed to say what kind of people live in those neighborhoods" It would help because those things are mostly done by the youth born there. Most migrants in a small (2sq miles although some like to extrapolate it to the whole country) community like Molenbeek (where most of those problems originate) are second generation or more. We are way past the point where it's a migration problem or where a migration stop would help. I don't know how closing our borders or my absolute favourite "sending them back to their country of origin" (which will result in an infinite loop) will really help. But then again for some we are not allowed to point to socio-economic problems, they pretend that it simply doesn't exist or it's the complete fault of the other side. What I often see in Belgium is the argument that Mohammed should find a job or that most are lazy. But from the moment we the see the name on his resume or he shows up to do our garage door installation, it's a big "no-go" also. It's a vicious circle that works both ways.
  - koonsolo 10y ago
    100% agree with you. It's a problem that is not easily fixed. Taking about the vicious circle, I heard of a company that basically discards any resume with a male Arabic name in it, because they had lots of problems with that group in the past, but not for the women. Too bad for the Mohammed who wants to do a good job of course. Very hard problem, but it all starts with being totally honest about the situation.
- nunobrito 10y ago
  There is a lot to worry about. Most are forced to correlate crime and migration because they can't write online that the real thing bothering Westerners is the virulent growth of an anachronistic religion that makes both men and women subservient to an old book or wizard in the sky. Somehow we'll find a few fellows here defending the increasing percentage of women completely dressed as ninjas as something natural in modern societies. Neglecting the violence that happens to them when they don't dress that way. HN, it's time to be honest. That's the real elephant in the room.
unwind 10y ago
Yeah, I think the wording is unfortunate. It's not the police who are labelling (or, more importantly, treating) these zones as "no go", that label has been applied by other parties, such as tabloid press. Quite happy to see official sources at least trying to put the foot down regarding all this weirdness (I am Swedish).
- theshrike79 10y ago
  Well here's the police speaking about the areas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24PCOMi3QAQ&feature=youtu.be&t=216 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24PCOMi3QAQ&feature=youtu.be... They're not exactly no-go, more like "no-go without bulletproof vest, riot gear and a big set of cojones"
ArmandGrillet 10y ago
You have a few no-go zones in France, e.g. in the Northern districts of Marseille, where the police does not go except for big operations as it is too dangerous. It looks like it is not the case in Sweden as the police can still go everywhere, even if some districts are more dangerous than others.
- arethuza 10y ago
  I remember hearing something similar from a policeman here in Scotland ~30 years ago - to arrest someone who they expected to be violent from a high-rise in a rougher area would need a remarkable number of people involved as they didn't want to let anyone be out of sight of anyone else so that meant someone standing on each landing on the stairs. And that's nothing to do with immigrants just us Scots and our unfortunate propensity for violence (see: radge).
  - threeseed 10y ago
    There are areas like this in most countries. And it's most often linked to poverty, youth unemployment, the stability of the family home and absence of good role models. But instead people like to blame immigrants because it's easier. It's always that faceless person over there who is responsible for your problems.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      > There are areas like this in most countries. But for quite many decades, there didn't use to be areas like that in Sweden.
      - alkonaut 10y ago
        No one is contesting that either. Areas like this become like this because of poverty and unemployment. Sweden has a system of very high entry level wages making the threshold for getting a job very high. If you immigrated from Somalia the chance that you have a job a decade later is around zero. So in a way this comes as an unfortunate result of success rather than failure. We "could afford" having migrants, and we have had the luxury of high entry wages. The fact that this leads to massive segregation and thus integration problems is the downside we haven't figured out.
akerro 10y ago
VICE made a pretty good material about no-go zones in Sweden and anti-racist groups that demolish your car, house, get you fired from job for liking wrong thing on Facebook.
- literallycancer 10y ago
  How about linking the material? >and anti-racist groups that demolish your car, house, get you fired from job for liking wrong thing on Facebook. Yea. It's your prerogative to hold controversial opinions. But you certainly don't have any right to be publicly racist and expect no retaliation. To clarify, I meant legal retaliation using legal means like firing the racist person from their job. Burning down their car is of course, illegal.
  - akerro 10y ago
    > How about linking the material? First result from 4sec googling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MYMVfyHi0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MYMVfyHi0 >But you certainly don't have any right to be publicly racist and expect no retaliation. Seriously, demolishing someone's car/house is not worth mentioning in your comment, but have no right to be publicly racist? I also didn't say it was racist, where did you take this from? Also, what's your address because I disagree and would like to put an axe on your front door.
    - literallycancer 10y ago
      I didn't mean to say that it's ok to burn down someone's car or a house. But retaliation within legal means is to be expected. Not sure about Sweden, but in my country being publicly racist[1] would be viewed as a crime[2]. I don't think anyone expects employers to continue employing active criminals. >I also didn't say it was racist, where did you take this from? >anti-racist groups ... get you fired from job for liking wrong thing on Facebook Presumably, anti-racist group would take offense to people liking racist things on Facebook (otherwise, why describe them as anti-racist as opposed to anti-'whatever it is you like on Facebook that they have issues with')? 1 - defined as: "Who founds, supports or propagates a movement that provably aims to suppress freedoms and rights of man, or preaches racial, ethnic, national, religious or class hatred, or hatred against another group of people, will be punished by 1 to 5 years of prison." 2 - in reality you'd probably be sued for it only if you pissed off someone with the money/time to spend on the legal procedures
deleted 10y ago
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theshrike79 10y ago
A news piece by NRK (Norwegian equivalent of the BBC) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24PCOMi3QAQ&feature=youtu.be&t=216 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24PCOMi3QAQ&feature=youtu.be... Straight from the horse's mouth (cops in this case). tl;dw they wear bulletproof vests and helmes in Malmö (BP vests are really rare on nordic police officers compared to the US)
- SyneRyder 10y ago
  Might be better to link directly to the NRK news story: https://www.nrk.no/urix/svensk-politi_-_-vi-er-i-ferd-med-a-miste-kontrollen-1.12920404 https://www.nrk.no/urix/svensk-politi_-_-vi-er-i-ferd-med-a-... That link includes video interviews with Stockholm police (not Malmö), with one police officer claiming they experience Police Fishing ("polis-fishing"), fake calls designed to bring the police to a specific location, where they are ambushed by locals who attack them by throwing stones at them ("steinkasting"). The report also mentions "no go-zones", but I can't find any mention of that specific phrase in the Swedish Police PDF that NRK link to and use as their reference.
ZeroGravitas 10y ago
It's strangely worded because "no-go area" is a dog-whistle that means a lot more to certain groups than others. There's a whole bunch of people who think Muslims are secretly taking over western nations, and being aided by Jews. As part of that they believe they are literally setting up whole cities under Islamic law. This is why Obama not being born in Kenya can seem like political trivia to one person, but evidence of a wide ranging conspiracy to another. "Sharia" and "Muslim brotherhood" are a couple of other terms that have resonances you're probably not aware of amongst the "counter-jihadi" movement.
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  The threat of Sharia is overrated in parts of the West, but it's a very real thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra45nX9JmW4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra45nX9JmW4 There are parts of Sharia that are not compatible with Western liberal values.
- partisan 10y ago
  So that I can correctly align my world view with yours, under what circumstances can one use the terms "Sharia" and "Muslim brotherhood"?
  - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
    You can use them any way you want, just be aware when you do that some people think Dearborn in Michigan, or Birmingham in the UK are currently no-go areas for anyone who is not a conservative muslim, so any mention of Sharia which isn't a condemnation basically means you approve of this scenario and are part of the conspiracy to bring down the west. And this conspiracy goes right to the top. The current president of the USA accused the previous president of the USA live on national television of helping to organise a terrorist shooting in a Florida nightclub. Hilarious right? What a wacky character. Not so funny when you realise large numbers of people literally believe this to be the case. "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can you make commit atrocities" -- Voltaire.
vermontdevil 10y ago
Same in the US - people actually believe Dearborn Michigan is a no-go zone or 100% Sharia governed area. http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp Yeah Dearborn, the HQ of Ford Motor Company. I've been to Dearborn, it sure is not a no-go zone or anything to be scared of. Beyond ridiculous.
rrock 10y ago
What's weird about it? They deny that there's such a thing as a no-go zone in Sweden. Fits with my experience, as I've never encountered a place in Sweden that felt like that. Contrast that with here in Chicago, where there are neighborhoods where I will not go in broad daylight, even though they are not labeled no-go zones. Seriously, we need to get a sense of perspective. Edit: see also, perspective from Latvia in this thread.
- tropo 10y ago
  Chicago has no-go zones, and no-go zones are always bad. The difference here is that Sweden is creating new no-go zones. However that happens (in this case immigration) it is really bad. If a government policy would create new no-go zones, then that government policy is bad. Stop it! Fixing the older no-go zones is a different problem. It is important, but a lower priority than not creating new no-go zones. It's like... close the plug in the bottom of your boat before worrying about the water that is already there.
yAnonymous 10y ago
>The way this is worded is weird Especially when you consider that "53 residential areas" are way beyond what the Swedish government and law enforcement can control and contain. In a properly ran country, this would pose some kind of state emergency, but they keep ignoring it.

by trendia 10y ago

koonsolo 10y ago

Same as in Belgium then. They even throw stones at fire-fighters when they are doing their job. So nothing to worry about, right? And I don't know if it is the same in Sweden, but you are not really politically allowed to say what kind of people live in those neighborhoods. So again, nothing to worry about.

trendia 10y ago
Well according to this article, crime across the whole country has gone down, so who really cares if there are pockets where the violence is so bad that police can't do their job? I mean, who cares if there are 30 gernade attacks in Malmo [0] as long as overall deaths in Stockholm habe gone down by more than 30? [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_S...
- autokad 10y ago
  "The number of confirmed or suspected shootings was 20 per cent higher in 2014 than in 2006. The statistics also show that 17 people were killed with firearms in 2011, while the corresponding figure in 2015 was 33." does anyone else find it strange how they keep jumping around in (what feels like arbitrary) years?
  - hogrammer 10y ago
    It's not strange if you know why they're doing it.
  - Baeocystin 10y ago
    Looks like cherry-picking to me.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  Exactly. We worry about those pockets of crime/violence and the media attention is disproportionate here too. The international attention is just mind blowing seeing as nothing has changed over the last decade (these areas were shit 10 years ago too!). But all this doesn't mean the country suddenly is on the verge of collapse. Yes it's true: there are pockets where Ambulances are stoned by local kids and need police escorts. That's not a vicious rumor. It's a tiny area (few blocks) of the country though. I'm sure many countries have terrible areas. How our areas somehow turned on ambulance and firefighters is a complete mystery to me though.
onion2k 10y ago
Same as in Belgium then. They even throw stones at fire-fighters when they are doing their job. So nothing to worry about, right? I wouldn't be surprised if every country has areas people claim are like that. England: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3647355/Firefighters-attacked-ten-times-week-Britain-including-thugs-throwing-bottles-bricks-paving-stones.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3647355/Firefighters... Scotland: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bonfire-night-marred-attacks-firefighters-9206541 http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bonfire-nigh... Wales: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/youths-attacked-firefighters-fireworks-tried-12113952 http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/youths-attacked... USA: http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2015/12/01/attacks-firefighters-not-rare/76604000/ http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2015/12/01/at... Ireland: http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/watch-sickening-moment-thugs-attack-7882192 http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/watch-sickening-mo... Those links are only to illustrate what people claim happen. They're not necessarily representative of what things are actually like. Talking to people who live in these places is just about the only way to get a good idea.
- deleted 10y ago
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- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  Reports of youths stoning firemen are in the newspaper every couple of months in my UK city. Firemen report it as truth too, it has been specifically mentioned when I've visited fire stations (Scout visits). The youths are never charged from what I can tell, the police just disperse them. I assume this means the incidents don't go in to crime statistics. That's one way of "bringing down violent crime", don't arrest the perps; that may be over-cynical.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > my UK city > That's one way of "bringing down violent crime", don't arrest the perps It is overly cynical. The UK has two sets of crime statistics: police recorded crime and the annual crime survey. Even the police recorded crime stats (which aren't regarded as statistically reliable) don't only rely on arrests, but include all reported crimes. So police arresting or not wouldn't affect the numbers. But the annual crime survey (which is statistically reliable) doesn't rely on police recording.
rmc 10y ago
> Same as in Belgium then. They even throw stones at fire-fighters when they are doing their job. So nothing to worry about, right? Who reports that people do that? Tabloid newspapers? They've been lying about that for decades. After the 1989 Hillsbourogh disaster (where people died due to health & safety issues, and negligence from the police), tabloid newspaper The Sun wrote a full page headline accusing Liverpool fans of attacking police who were trying to save people. It was a complete fabrication. "Those people" attacking our police/first responders is a common lie that sells tabloid newspapers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster#The_Sun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster#The_Sun
- reacweb 10y ago
  you mean that the cost issues of bulletproof vest for firefighter were also fabrication ?
  - peteretep 10y ago
    Presumably, as you haven't added any source for your anecfact?
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      Plenty of sources tell us that emergency services in metropolitan areas in Sweden wear protective vests. There are cost issues, and there are image issues, i.e. if the firemen are protected against you stabbing them, it's "militarization" and you'll see them as your enemy. E.g. Svenska Dagbladet (no fringe publication, a major newspaper): https://www.svd.se/ambulanspersonal-far-skyddsvastar https://www.svd.se/ambulanspersonal-far-skyddsvastar Of course, this is not unique. Plenty of American cities have the same: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime-and-courts/madison-firefighters-add-extra-layer-of-protection-with-bulletproof-vests/article_5f0fc4ce-0f08-51ed-8a25-79f99092d08b.html http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime-and-courts/madi...
- kahrkunne 10y ago
  Not Belgium but the Netherlands, I've seen it myself. Here it's a public issue, even being discussed in parliament.
threeseed 10y ago
You can say whatever you want. What's important and this release is trying to demonstrate is that if you're going to make claims then provide the evidence. Sure you could blame Muslims for those no-go areas. But you need to demonstrate it. And demonstrate absent other factors like socioeconomic status, unemployment rate etc.
denzil_correa 10y ago
> So nothing to worry about, right Who said there is nothing to worry? > but you are not really politically allowed to say what kind of people live in those neighborhoods. First, source for not allowed to say. Second, what do you want to say?
piva00 10y ago
No, not like that at the fucking all. I live in Stockholm, I just came today to my home from a friend's place that is in one of these pesky little maps marking it as a "no-go zone". Seriously, there's nothing alarming there at all, it's a very normal area a little bit outside the center with more affordable housing (compared to the center of Stockholm but not even near "cheap") and that's about it. I've stayed on that friend's house for the whole of January, daily living there and haven't heard about a single crime happening. Asked my friend's flatmates just now and they laughed about it. Same thing for a friend that lives inside what some maps label as "no-go zone" in Kista, nothing happened there at all for the past year. So seriously, the alarmism here is very extrapolated compared to the actual risk. Compare to Belgium as you want but be a bit more honest about your utter ignorance instead of just a "And I don't know about Sweden"-trumpesque discourse.
- ra1n85 10y ago
  What's with the uptick in "grenade attacks"? Seems like there's been more in 2016 than in the four year period leading up to 2012? Really curious as to how this is a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swe...
  - mikko-apo 10y ago
    I don't know about Sweden, but in Finland the number of firebomb/grenade attacks increased a lot in the past few years. All of them due Finnish born right wing zealots trying to burn down the shelters housing the refugees. Luckily there seems to be less attacks in the last half a year. I think there's been more attacks, but here's a summary of some of them: http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-8517586 http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-8517586 (Dec 2015, in finnish)
  - cfv 10y ago
    Reading your link I counted a hundred and twenty in 19 years. For about 9 million people in Sweden, that's a 120/(19 * 9 * 10^6) change of something happening each year. That's insanely small, compared to, say, the amount of people dying in bathtubs while intoxicated, which works out to 4377/(19 * 9 * 10^6) assuming this is a stagnant problem. (http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-13-216 http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/14...) Look, I'm fully aware you need to panic, and I'm fully aware this need is being satisfied by a bunch of cronies standing to make heaps of money on your panic. Just know your fear is not justified and should not be the reason for aiding the raise of fascism in europe.
peteretep 10y ago
> not really politically > allowed to say what kind > of people live in those > neighborhoods Same answer it's been for the last 500 years? Poor people with rampant underemployment? Wonder what America would be like today if they'd cleared out all Italian and Irish immigrants 100 years ago because of immigrant ghettos?
- koonsolo 10y ago
  Go ask the Native Americans what they think about all those immigrants.
  - peteretep 10y ago
    You appear to have confused the word immigrant and the word invader?
    - chappi42 10y ago
      It might increasingly become difficult to differ: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26329018 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26329018 And you don't think that certainly more than half a billion africans would deserve to live a much better live than what is possible where they live now? Solution imho only can be to 'fix' those countries and 'fix' the birthrates. Globalization also means that certain customs no longer are tolerable...
paublyrne 10y ago
There are areas in Dublin where children and teenagers throw stones at fire brigades and they are certainly not immigrants. These are old white Irish areas. What sets them apart is high levels of unemployment, poverty and under employment.
- anjc 10y ago
  What sets the no-go zones apart in places like Sweden is that, not only are they filled with poor unemployed people, but those people have a different ideology and come from third world countries, and therefore the crimes perpetrated are different from that of the indigenous population. There isn't even a street in Dublin in which that's the case. There are certainly places in Dublin where you might be more likely to get yourself robbed in, but beaten up for drinking alcohol or walking as a white person with a Muslim girl? Nowhere.
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    So the latter is much worse?
    - anjc 10y ago
      Eh, of course it is?
  - paublyrne 10y ago
    but beaten up for drinking alcohol or walking as a white person with a Muslim girl? And where are you suggesting such a place does exist? In Sweden? If you have any links to reports of incidents like you're describing I'd love to see them.
    - anjc 10y ago
      I've seen scores of videos on Youtube showing that these attacks, if not normal, do happen at least in Sweden. You can read the stats in the thread again for proof, or search for videos yourself if you don't believe the stats. And I can anecdotally state that I've witnessed attacks first hand in Muslim areas in both Belgium and France due to ideological reasons (e.g. a girl in my party was assaulted because she touched a man's arm and apparently shouldn't have). I've lived in the worst parts of Dublin and yeah, problems can arise, but they're non-ideological ones. Which means that you can avoid them by using general street smarts.
ZeroGravitas 10y ago
The kids near me do that. They even set fire to abandoned buildings in order to ensure the fire-fighters show up. They're not migrants, refugees or any kind of ethnic minority though. Just poor and bored.
alicorn 10y ago
I think one of the problems when talking about these issues is the frame of reference. I have lived in the most dangerous part of our town (Linköping) for several years. I come from Latvia where a 'dangerous' part of a town meant that you do not go there because you will be robbed / knifed / shot in broad daylight. It was absolutely not the case with the most dangerous part of Linköping, even though people who had not had a direct experience with the place kept talking about it in the same way as I would talk about a true 'no-go' zone in Latvia. The worst thing that happened to me there was that my bicycle got stolen because I had forgotten to lock it overnight. My kid was playing outside unsupervised every day, I was coming home alone in the middle of night etc. Never had a single unpleasant experience. The same is true about rape. In Sweden, the definition of rape and sexual abuse is incredibly broad. I know a person who got accused of sexual abuse by his wife because she said he had slipped up a finger in her vagina while asleep without her consent. Once. Several years ago. Can you imagine any other country where a case like this would ever be looked at even remotely seriously? Moreover, incidents involving sexual abuse are reported a lot more often, because everyone is a lot more informed about what consent means and what their rights are. It is highly unusual in the global context. So rape in Sweden is nothing like rape pretty much anywhere else in the world. I could talk a lot more about these issues, but these two points are the most important to keep in mind when discussing crime in Sweden relative to crime everywhere else in the world.
- literallycancer 10y ago
  Exactly, using the Swedish tabloid definition of a "no-go zone", the poorer parts of most US cities would be no-go zones.
  - sundvor 10y ago
    This. The relative safety between Scandinavian countries and most of the US really needs to be brought up more. As far as gun violence goes, the US almost turned into a no-go country as far as myself is concerned.
  - deleted 10y ago
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glenndebacker 10y ago
"but you are not really politically allowed to say what kind of people live in those neighborhoods" It would help because those things are mostly done by the youth born there. Most migrants in a small (2sq miles although some like to extrapolate it to the whole country) community like Molenbeek (where most of those problems originate) are second generation or more. We are way past the point where it's a migration problem or where a migration stop would help. I don't know how closing our borders or my absolute favourite "sending them back to their country of origin" (which will result in an infinite loop) will really help. But then again for some we are not allowed to point to socio-economic problems, they pretend that it simply doesn't exist or it's the complete fault of the other side. What I often see in Belgium is the argument that Mohammed should find a job or that most are lazy. But from the moment we the see the name on his resume or he shows up to do our garage door installation, it's a big "no-go" also. It's a vicious circle that works both ways.
- koonsolo 10y ago
  100% agree with you. It's a problem that is not easily fixed. Taking about the vicious circle, I heard of a company that basically discards any resume with a male Arabic name in it, because they had lots of problems with that group in the past, but not for the women. Too bad for the Mohammed who wants to do a good job of course. Very hard problem, but it all starts with being totally honest about the situation.
nunobrito 10y ago
There is a lot to worry about. Most are forced to correlate crime and migration because they can't write online that the real thing bothering Westerners is the virulent growth of an anachronistic religion that makes both men and women subservient to an old book or wizard in the sky. Somehow we'll find a few fellows here defending the increasing percentage of women completely dressed as ninjas as something natural in modern societies. Neglecting the violence that happens to them when they don't dress that way. HN, it's time to be honest. That's the real elephant in the room.

unwind 10y ago

Yeah, I think the wording is unfortunate. It's not the police who are labelling (or, more importantly, treating) these zones as "no go", that label has been applied by other parties, such as tabloid press. Quite happy to see official sources at least trying to put the foot down regarding all this weirdness (I am Swedish).

theshrike79 10y ago
Well here's the police speaking about the areas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24PCOMi3QAQ&feature=youtu.be&t=216 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24PCOMi3QAQ&feature=youtu.be... They're not exactly no-go, more like "no-go without bulletproof vest, riot gear and a big set of cojones"

ArmandGrillet 10y ago

You have a few no-go zones in France, e.g. in the Northern districts of Marseille, where the police does not go except for big operations as it is too dangerous. It looks like it is not the case in Sweden as the police can still go everywhere, even if some districts are more dangerous than others.

arethuza 10y ago
I remember hearing something similar from a policeman here in Scotland ~30 years ago - to arrest someone who they expected to be violent from a high-rise in a rougher area would need a remarkable number of people involved as they didn't want to let anyone be out of sight of anyone else so that meant someone standing on each landing on the stairs. And that's nothing to do with immigrants just us Scots and our unfortunate propensity for violence (see: radge).
- threeseed 10y ago
  There are areas like this in most countries. And it's most often linked to poverty, youth unemployment, the stability of the family home and absence of good role models. But instead people like to blame immigrants because it's easier. It's always that faceless person over there who is responsible for your problems.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    > There are areas like this in most countries. But for quite many decades, there didn't use to be areas like that in Sweden.
    - alkonaut 10y ago
      No one is contesting that either. Areas like this become like this because of poverty and unemployment. Sweden has a system of very high entry level wages making the threshold for getting a job very high. If you immigrated from Somalia the chance that you have a job a decade later is around zero. So in a way this comes as an unfortunate result of success rather than failure. We "could afford" having migrants, and we have had the luxury of high entry wages. The fact that this leads to massive segregation and thus integration problems is the downside we haven't figured out.

akerro 10y ago

VICE made a pretty good material about no-go zones in Sweden and anti-racist groups that demolish your car, house, get you fired from job for liking wrong thing on Facebook.

literallycancer 10y ago
How about linking the material? >and anti-racist groups that demolish your car, house, get you fired from job for liking wrong thing on Facebook. Yea. It's your prerogative to hold controversial opinions. But you certainly don't have any right to be publicly racist and expect no retaliation. To clarify, I meant legal retaliation using legal means like firing the racist person from their job. Burning down their car is of course, illegal.
- akerro 10y ago
  > How about linking the material? First result from 4sec googling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MYMVfyHi0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MYMVfyHi0 >But you certainly don't have any right to be publicly racist and expect no retaliation. Seriously, demolishing someone's car/house is not worth mentioning in your comment, but have no right to be publicly racist? I also didn't say it was racist, where did you take this from? Also, what's your address because I disagree and would like to put an axe on your front door.
  - literallycancer 10y ago
    I didn't mean to say that it's ok to burn down someone's car or a house. But retaliation within legal means is to be expected. Not sure about Sweden, but in my country being publicly racist[1] would be viewed as a crime[2]. I don't think anyone expects employers to continue employing active criminals. >I also didn't say it was racist, where did you take this from? >anti-racist groups ... get you fired from job for liking wrong thing on Facebook Presumably, anti-racist group would take offense to people liking racist things on Facebook (otherwise, why describe them as anti-racist as opposed to anti-'whatever it is you like on Facebook that they have issues with')? 1 - defined as: "Who founds, supports or propagates a movement that provably aims to suppress freedoms and rights of man, or preaches racial, ethnic, national, religious or class hatred, or hatred against another group of people, will be punished by 1 to 5 years of prison." 2 - in reality you'd probably be sued for it only if you pissed off someone with the money/time to spend on the legal procedures

deleted 10y ago

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theshrike79 10y ago

A news piece by NRK (Norwegian equivalent of the BBC) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24PCOMi3QAQ&feature=youtu.be&t=216 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24PCOMi3QAQ&feature=youtu.be... Straight from the horse's mouth (cops in this case). tl;dw they wear bulletproof vests and helmes in Malmö (BP vests are really rare on nordic police officers compared to the US)

SyneRyder 10y ago
Might be better to link directly to the NRK news story: https://www.nrk.no/urix/svensk-politi_-_-vi-er-i-ferd-med-a-miste-kontrollen-1.12920404 https://www.nrk.no/urix/svensk-politi_-_-vi-er-i-ferd-med-a-... That link includes video interviews with Stockholm police (not Malmö), with one police officer claiming they experience Police Fishing ("polis-fishing"), fake calls designed to bring the police to a specific location, where they are ambushed by locals who attack them by throwing stones at them ("steinkasting"). The report also mentions "no go-zones", but I can't find any mention of that specific phrase in the Swedish Police PDF that NRK link to and use as their reference.

ZeroGravitas 10y ago

It's strangely worded because "no-go area" is a dog-whistle that means a lot more to certain groups than others. There's a whole bunch of people who think Muslims are secretly taking over western nations, and being aided by Jews. As part of that they believe they are literally setting up whole cities under Islamic law. This is why Obama not being born in Kenya can seem like political trivia to one person, but evidence of a wide ranging conspiracy to another. "Sharia" and "Muslim brotherhood" are a couple of other terms that have resonances you're probably not aware of amongst the "counter-jihadi" movement.

aaron-lebo 10y ago
The threat of Sharia is overrated in parts of the West, but it's a very real thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra45nX9JmW4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra45nX9JmW4 There are parts of Sharia that are not compatible with Western liberal values.
partisan 10y ago
So that I can correctly align my world view with yours, under what circumstances can one use the terms "Sharia" and "Muslim brotherhood"?
- ZeroGravitas 10y ago
  You can use them any way you want, just be aware when you do that some people think Dearborn in Michigan, or Birmingham in the UK are currently no-go areas for anyone who is not a conservative muslim, so any mention of Sharia which isn't a condemnation basically means you approve of this scenario and are part of the conspiracy to bring down the west. And this conspiracy goes right to the top. The current president of the USA accused the previous president of the USA live on national television of helping to organise a terrorist shooting in a Florida nightclub. Hilarious right? What a wacky character. Not so funny when you realise large numbers of people literally believe this to be the case. "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can you make commit atrocities" -- Voltaire.

vermontdevil 10y ago

Same in the US - people actually believe Dearborn Michigan is a no-go zone or 100% Sharia governed area. http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp Yeah Dearborn, the HQ of Ford Motor Company. I've been to Dearborn, it sure is not a no-go zone or anything to be scared of. Beyond ridiculous.

rrock 10y ago

What's weird about it? They deny that there's such a thing as a no-go zone in Sweden. Fits with my experience, as I've never encountered a place in Sweden that felt like that. Contrast that with here in Chicago, where there are neighborhoods where I will not go in broad daylight, even though they are not labeled no-go zones. Seriously, we need to get a sense of perspective. Edit: see also, perspective from Latvia in this thread.

tropo 10y ago
Chicago has no-go zones, and no-go zones are always bad. The difference here is that Sweden is creating new no-go zones. However that happens (in this case immigration) it is really bad. If a government policy would create new no-go zones, then that government policy is bad. Stop it! Fixing the older no-go zones is a different problem. It is important, but a lower priority than not creating new no-go zones. It's like... close the plug in the bottom of your boat before worrying about the water that is already there.

yAnonymous 10y ago

>The way this is worded is weird Especially when you consider that "53 residential areas" are way beyond what the Swedish government and law enforcement can control and contain. In a properly ran country, this would pose some kind of state emergency, but they keep ignoring it.