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I'm really surprised to see so many from the HN audience against scalpers, considering how libertarian the site leans. If there's any market where a completely

I'm really surprised to see so many from the HN audience against scalpers, considering how libertarian the site leans. If there's any market where a completely free market approach is applicable and actually desirable, it's this one. I've bought maybe 40-50 tickets for various events (gaming, concerts, sports) over the last 5 years, and 99% of the time, the price of the ticket was negligible next to all the other expenses (travel and lodging mostly, but also food). And yes, most of those tickets had scalpers operating on them, pricing 2-3x higher than the nominal sale price. Even at 2-3x price, the price of the ticket is a relatively small portion of the total cost of attending. People without money get screwed out of entertainment? Boo Hoo. How about Healthcare or housing? You know, actual essential things. Thinking that being a hardcore fan makes you somehow more deserving to attend is entitled child mentality, plain and simple. It's one of those concepts that make you feel good, but in reality no one cares, and certainly not going to cry over 1 fan attending over another. If you can't afford the auction price of the ticket, sit at home and watch their live youtube videos. It's arguably not even much worse and you won't have to deal with the smelly crowds.

nradov 10y ago
You're logically and economically correct, but people have a visceral negative emotional reaction to arbitrageurs since they didn't do anything to "earn" their profits. The only way to eliminate scalping would be for the original sellers to raise prices to match the clearing price (perhaps with auctions) but the optics on that are also bad since artists don't like to seem too greedy.
- ue_ 10y ago
  >but people have a visceral negative reaction to arbitrageurs since they didn't do anything to "earn" their profits I don't think there's anything wrong with getting money that you didn't earn (so long as you're not exploiting people, as the bourgeoisie do); I do think there is something ethically questionable about forcing (I use the word 'forcing' to refer to the idea that within the confines of show-going, it is the only available choice) people to pay 3x more for something out of greed.
  - lixquid 10y ago
    But.. they are exploiting people. That's literally what they are doing; expecting people to purchase these tickets at a higher cost for the simple reason that supply is short.
    - pitt1980 10y ago
      that's every market you purchase anything in
    - chillwaves 10y ago
      Artificially short by scalpers driving up demand.
      - r7000 10y ago
        Scalpers neither increase nor reduce total demand. Scalpers are not going to the event themselves.
    - metaphorm 10y ago
      the supply is short is the reason the price is high. that's not really exploitation of the people buying. they get what they paid for at the price that they were willing to pay. there's a structural issue here, which is that the world isn't a very fair place and it sucks to be poor. this ticket market situation is not really an example of exploitation though. nobody is being coerced into buying something they don't want, or not getting what they pay for.
- pitt1980 10y ago
  "people have a visceral negative reaction to arbitrageurs" I think you're right that people have a visceral reaction to people they perceive as arbitrageurs ------------------- like arbitrageurs in nearly every domain where they exist, they "earn" their profits by providing liquidity and handling risk I don't think the model where ticket sellers are leaving profits on the table for fear of seeming greedy makes much sense the model that makes better sense (to me at least) is that they want to set a price where the tickets clear earlier than 5 minutes before the show (also, like all endeavors where you're setting a price, its hard to precisely predict demand) the difficulty setting a price, and the preference for early sellout, create an opportunity for scalpers who are willing to buy the risk that they won't be able to selling the tickets for more than they bought them for ---------- ---------- ---------- also venues make money off non ticket revenues, so they price the tickets at price that maximizes the profits from ticket revenue + plus other revenue streams (concession, parking, etc), so they will price it lower than scalpers, who don't have access to non ticket revenue, so they're pricing to maximize just ticket revenue
illvm 10y ago
Look, if the box office said "we're auctioning off all the tickets, there is no set price" then I would be inclined to agree with you. But that's not what happens here. Scalping with bots is someone profiting off of the work of others. It's borderline theft. Moreover, it's already illegal in many states and further widens the chasm between the rich and the poor. I don't understand why you would defend such practice.
- conjectures 10y ago
  What cheeses me off is that the artists aren't making that money. Under an auction system more of the money would go into artists' pockets rather than scalpers - which is surely something hardcore fans would want.
  - r7000 10y ago
    That is not correct. Some artists sign deals guaranteeing them more than 100% of total face value. Others put tickets on the secondary markets themselves. If any system does not funnel a huge amount of cash to the artists it would be changed immediately.
- antisthenes 10y ago
  I'm merely saying that scalping wouldn't happen if tickets were priced closer to their actual value - aka what people are willing to pay. Scalpers (and all the technology behind them) would not exist, or exist in very limited capacity if people were not willing to pay whatever the amount is. > we're auctioning off all the tickets, there is no set price That includes an insane amount of overhead, on both the part of the venue and the end user. Perhaps one of you programmers can come up with some machine learning algo to more correctly price tickets in the first place so artists get more money? Isn't that the end goal?
ue_ 10y ago
>Even at 2-3x price, the price of the ticket is a relatively small portion of the total cost of attending. This is irrelevant. The fact is that it's 2-3x the cost because someone decided to be greedy and purchase lots of tickets that people would have bought. Imagine if you go to buy a bar of chocolate, and it's $1 as it usually is. Then one day you've found out that the only way to buy it is from the weird guy outside the shop, who has purchased the entire supply of chocolate and is selling them at $3. I would be upset about it. The actual original price it irrelevant, no matter how cheap it is to get it. The fact is that you're making someone pay 3x as much which is frankly horrible behaviour. >People without money get screwed out of entertainment? Boo Hoo. How about Healthcare or housing? You know, actual essential things. So you think it's okay for someone to do something bad, so long as it's trivial and not related to one's bare survival? >Thinking that being a hardcore fan makes you somehow more deserving to attend is entitled child mentality, plain and simple. I agree. But being so greedy as to purchase thousands of tickets in order to sell them at a significant markup later on is also childishly greedy, moreso in fact than the child who believes he deserves to see something he likes without having to pay 3x the cost beacuse some guy has decided to be greedy. >If you can't afford the auction price of the ticket, sit at home and watch their live youtube videos. That's totally fine. But being denied a service because of someone else's greed is extremely ethically and morally questionable in my opinion. I'm a social anarchist. I don't have any problem if you decide to sell something at whatever price you want. But I maintain that it's abhorrent, greedy, disgusting, horrible, childish and at the least questionable for one to force this practice upon others who would have no problem affording the original product. Whether it's a ticket or a chocolate bar or food or even hospital or housing, it's the same principle, and I fail to see why it does not apply to those but it does apply to tickets. >It's arguably not even much worse and you won't have to deal with the smelly crowds. Don't try and undersell something that people would have otherwise wanted in order to make yourself feel better about supporting abhorrent and greedy behaviour please.
- saosebastiao 10y ago
  > So you think it's okay for someone to do something bad, so long as it's trivial and not related to one's bare survival? If buying low and selling high is so bad that it should be outlawed, you can kiss everything you know goodbye.
rhcom2 10y ago
> People without money get screwed out of entertainment? Boo Hoo. How about Healthcare or housing? You know, actual essential things. These things aren't mutually exclusive. I think most people would think it is unfair if only people who can pay 2-4x the ticket price are able to see an event. Hell scalping for more than the original price isn't even legal some places.
- antisthenes 10y ago
  They aren't exclusive, but one is essential and the other is not. Especially in the age of internet, no one owes you a very specific particular type of entertainment. I would argue, however, that the social contract does owe you at least some modicum of healthcare and housing assistance, which is why I see absolutely no problem with scalping, but for-profit healthcare abhorrent. > I think most people would think it is unfair if only people who can pay 2-4x the ticket price are able to see an event. It is still possible to get tickets by buying them as early as you possibly can. You trade your time for money that you would have otherwise paid the scalper.
  - rhcom2 10y ago
    > It is still possible to get tickets by buying them as early as you possibly can. You trade your time for money that you would have otherwise paid the scalper. That's what this article is about though, that it isn't possible to compete when scalpers have bots, no matter how early you try to buy them.
LordKano 10y ago
All of the convoluted reasons why scalping must be stomped out have never made sense to me. If people would let the market handle it, things would sort themselves out naturally. If scalpers have to spend more money buying tickets than they can make by selling them, they'll stop buying so many tickets. Also, maybe venues should have some method of selling unredeemed tickets at the door. For example, if a ticked hasn't been redeemed by one hour after the start of the show, the venue gets to re-sell that space to someone who is there in person with cash in hand. Scalper spent $50 on the ticket that s/he couldn't sell so an hour after the show, the venue can re-sell that space for $30 cash. I'm sure I have overlooked something here but I'm just brainstorming. Instead of trying to fight technological battles that you're not going to win, revamp the ecosystem.
- criddell 10y ago
  Let the market handle it? You mean sell to those willing to pay the most? If you are a performer, sometimes you want to sell to the biggest fans. What's the market mechanism for that?
  - LordKano 10y ago
    Yes. That's how things have always been. As long as we live in a capitalist society, that's how they'll always be. The market value of a thing is not just what someone tries to sell it for, it's what someone else is willing to pay for it. There have long been mechanisms by which the most dedicated fans have access to some of the tickets for less than market rates. Call it old fashioned if you like but fan clubs or the 21st century analog. FB Groups, mailing lists, private websites, actual in person box-office ticket sales, whatever... 14 months ago, I got to meet my all time favorite musician. I purchased my ticket at a beauty parlor and I talked to the concert promoter on the telephone to ask him if he could help me make it happen.
    - criddell 10y ago
      Right. The market doesn't work very well except for the very simple scenario of maximizing revenue.
harryh 10y ago
I think you overestimate the libertarian leanings of the site.
criddell 10y ago
Not everybody that sells tickets has as their goal maximizing revenue. For example, lots of bands work very hard to put on shows that are affordable for their fans. Scalpers taking advantage of the situation is an example of this-is-why-we-can't-have-nice-things. And I agree that access to affordable shows isn't as important as housing or healthcare, but I think you are very much underestimating the value and importance of the arts in many peoples' lives.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  >"For example, lots of bands work very hard to put on shows that are affordable for their fans." I am not doubting that but there's enough blame to go around on ticket prices. Bands no longer make money selling records. The model of the touring business back when the public bought records was that the tours were used to sell records and except for a small handful of acts artists mostly didn't make money from touring. A concert would generate sales of records in that market, it was a tool to sell records. Now that there is no longer money in records the bands themselves have increased ticket prices extortionately so in many acts cases because this their source of income now and not album sales.
- matwood 10y ago
  > For example, lots of bands work very hard to put on shows that are affordable for their fans. Scalpers taking advantage of the situation is an example of this-is-why-we-can't-have-nice-things. Don't believe their hype. If bands wanted to make shows cheaper they only have to do more shows.
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    >"If bands wanted to make shows cheaper they only have to do more shows." That's often not feasible. Booking dates depends on a venues schedule. Its often not possible to book a venue for 2 or even 3 nights in a row, especially in primary markets.
    - criddell 10y ago
      Plus artists would probably like to put on better shows (of which the audience is a key part) rather than more shows. Quality over quantity.
gpawl 10y ago
Some people are libertarian, some are not. They argue. It's not complicated, it's the free market of ideas.

nradov 10y ago

You're logically and economically correct, but people have a visceral negative emotional reaction to arbitrageurs since they didn't do anything to "earn" their profits. The only way to eliminate scalping would be for the original sellers to raise prices to match the clearing price (perhaps with auctions) but the optics on that are also bad since artists don't like to seem too greedy.

ue_ 10y ago
>but people have a visceral negative reaction to arbitrageurs since they didn't do anything to "earn" their profits I don't think there's anything wrong with getting money that you didn't earn (so long as you're not exploiting people, as the bourgeoisie do); I do think there is something ethically questionable about forcing (I use the word 'forcing' to refer to the idea that within the confines of show-going, it is the only available choice) people to pay 3x more for something out of greed.
- lixquid 10y ago
  But.. they are exploiting people. That's literally what they are doing; expecting people to purchase these tickets at a higher cost for the simple reason that supply is short.
  - pitt1980 10y ago
    that's every market you purchase anything in
  - chillwaves 10y ago
    Artificially short by scalpers driving up demand.
    - r7000 10y ago
      Scalpers neither increase nor reduce total demand. Scalpers are not going to the event themselves.
  - metaphorm 10y ago
    the supply is short is the reason the price is high. that's not really exploitation of the people buying. they get what they paid for at the price that they were willing to pay. there's a structural issue here, which is that the world isn't a very fair place and it sucks to be poor. this ticket market situation is not really an example of exploitation though. nobody is being coerced into buying something they don't want, or not getting what they pay for.
pitt1980 10y ago
"people have a visceral negative reaction to arbitrageurs" I think you're right that people have a visceral reaction to people they perceive as arbitrageurs ------------------- like arbitrageurs in nearly every domain where they exist, they "earn" their profits by providing liquidity and handling risk I don't think the model where ticket sellers are leaving profits on the table for fear of seeming greedy makes much sense the model that makes better sense (to me at least) is that they want to set a price where the tickets clear earlier than 5 minutes before the show (also, like all endeavors where you're setting a price, its hard to precisely predict demand) the difficulty setting a price, and the preference for early sellout, create an opportunity for scalpers who are willing to buy the risk that they won't be able to selling the tickets for more than they bought them for ---------- ---------- ---------- also venues make money off non ticket revenues, so they price the tickets at price that maximizes the profits from ticket revenue + plus other revenue streams (concession, parking, etc), so they will price it lower than scalpers, who don't have access to non ticket revenue, so they're pricing to maximize just ticket revenue

illvm 10y ago

Look, if the box office said "we're auctioning off all the tickets, there is no set price" then I would be inclined to agree with you. But that's not what happens here. Scalping with bots is someone profiting off of the work of others. It's borderline theft. Moreover, it's already illegal in many states and further widens the chasm between the rich and the poor. I don't understand why you would defend such practice.

conjectures 10y ago
What cheeses me off is that the artists aren't making that money. Under an auction system more of the money would go into artists' pockets rather than scalpers - which is surely something hardcore fans would want.
- r7000 10y ago
  That is not correct. Some artists sign deals guaranteeing them more than 100% of total face value. Others put tickets on the secondary markets themselves. If any system does not funnel a huge amount of cash to the artists it would be changed immediately.
antisthenes 10y ago
I'm merely saying that scalping wouldn't happen if tickets were priced closer to their actual value - aka what people are willing to pay. Scalpers (and all the technology behind them) would not exist, or exist in very limited capacity if people were not willing to pay whatever the amount is. > we're auctioning off all the tickets, there is no set price That includes an insane amount of overhead, on both the part of the venue and the end user. Perhaps one of you programmers can come up with some machine learning algo to more correctly price tickets in the first place so artists get more money? Isn't that the end goal?

ue_ 10y ago

>Even at 2-3x price, the price of the ticket is a relatively small portion of the total cost of attending. This is irrelevant. The fact is that it's 2-3x the cost because someone decided to be greedy and purchase lots of tickets that people would have bought. Imagine if you go to buy a bar of chocolate, and it's $1 as it usually is. Then one day you've found out that the only way to buy it is from the weird guy outside the shop, who has purchased the entire supply of chocolate and is selling them at $3. I would be upset about it. The actual original price it irrelevant, no matter how cheap it is to get it. The fact is that you're making someone pay 3x as much which is frankly horrible behaviour. >People without money get screwed out of entertainment? Boo Hoo. How about Healthcare or housing? You know, actual essential things. So you think it's okay for someone to do something bad, so long as it's trivial and not related to one's bare survival? >Thinking that being a hardcore fan makes you somehow more deserving to attend is entitled child mentality, plain and simple. I agree. But being so greedy as to purchase thousands of tickets in order to sell them at a significant markup later on is also childishly greedy, moreso in fact than the child who believes he deserves to see something he likes without having to pay 3x the cost beacuse some guy has decided to be greedy. >If you can't afford the auction price of the ticket, sit at home and watch their live youtube videos. That's totally fine. But being denied a service because of someone else's greed is extremely ethically and morally questionable in my opinion. I'm a social anarchist. I don't have any problem if you decide to sell something at whatever price you want. But I maintain that it's abhorrent, greedy, disgusting, horrible, childish and at the least questionable for one to force this practice upon others who would have no problem affording the original product. Whether it's a ticket or a chocolate bar or food or even hospital or housing, it's the same principle, and I fail to see why it does not apply to those but it does apply to tickets. >It's arguably not even much worse and you won't have to deal with the smelly crowds. Don't try and undersell something that people would have otherwise wanted in order to make yourself feel better about supporting abhorrent and greedy behaviour please.

saosebastiao 10y ago
> So you think it's okay for someone to do something bad, so long as it's trivial and not related to one's bare survival? If buying low and selling high is so bad that it should be outlawed, you can kiss everything you know goodbye.

rhcom2 10y ago

> People without money get screwed out of entertainment? Boo Hoo. How about Healthcare or housing? You know, actual essential things. These things aren't mutually exclusive. I think most people would think it is unfair if only people who can pay 2-4x the ticket price are able to see an event. Hell scalping for more than the original price isn't even legal some places.

antisthenes 10y ago
They aren't exclusive, but one is essential and the other is not. Especially in the age of internet, no one owes you a very specific particular type of entertainment. I would argue, however, that the social contract does owe you at least some modicum of healthcare and housing assistance, which is why I see absolutely no problem with scalping, but for-profit healthcare abhorrent. > I think most people would think it is unfair if only people who can pay 2-4x the ticket price are able to see an event. It is still possible to get tickets by buying them as early as you possibly can. You trade your time for money that you would have otherwise paid the scalper.
- rhcom2 10y ago
  > It is still possible to get tickets by buying them as early as you possibly can. You trade your time for money that you would have otherwise paid the scalper. That's what this article is about though, that it isn't possible to compete when scalpers have bots, no matter how early you try to buy them.

LordKano 10y ago

All of the convoluted reasons why scalping must be stomped out have never made sense to me. If people would let the market handle it, things would sort themselves out naturally. If scalpers have to spend more money buying tickets than they can make by selling them, they'll stop buying so many tickets. Also, maybe venues should have some method of selling unredeemed tickets at the door. For example, if a ticked hasn't been redeemed by one hour after the start of the show, the venue gets to re-sell that space to someone who is there in person with cash in hand. Scalper spent $50 on the ticket that s/he couldn't sell so an hour after the show, the venue can re-sell that space for $30 cash. I'm sure I have overlooked something here but I'm just brainstorming. Instead of trying to fight technological battles that you're not going to win, revamp the ecosystem.

criddell 10y ago
Let the market handle it? You mean sell to those willing to pay the most? If you are a performer, sometimes you want to sell to the biggest fans. What's the market mechanism for that?
- LordKano 10y ago
  Yes. That's how things have always been. As long as we live in a capitalist society, that's how they'll always be. The market value of a thing is not just what someone tries to sell it for, it's what someone else is willing to pay for it. There have long been mechanisms by which the most dedicated fans have access to some of the tickets for less than market rates. Call it old fashioned if you like but fan clubs or the 21st century analog. FB Groups, mailing lists, private websites, actual in person box-office ticket sales, whatever... 14 months ago, I got to meet my all time favorite musician. I purchased my ticket at a beauty parlor and I talked to the concert promoter on the telephone to ask him if he could help me make it happen.
  - criddell 10y ago
    Right. The market doesn't work very well except for the very simple scenario of maximizing revenue.

harryh 10y ago

I think you overestimate the libertarian leanings of the site.

criddell 10y ago

Not everybody that sells tickets has as their goal maximizing revenue. For example, lots of bands work very hard to put on shows that are affordable for their fans. Scalpers taking advantage of the situation is an example of this-is-why-we-can't-have-nice-things. And I agree that access to affordable shows isn't as important as housing or healthcare, but I think you are very much underestimating the value and importance of the arts in many peoples' lives.

bogomipz 10y ago
>"For example, lots of bands work very hard to put on shows that are affordable for their fans." I am not doubting that but there's enough blame to go around on ticket prices. Bands no longer make money selling records. The model of the touring business back when the public bought records was that the tours were used to sell records and except for a small handful of acts artists mostly didn't make money from touring. A concert would generate sales of records in that market, it was a tool to sell records. Now that there is no longer money in records the bands themselves have increased ticket prices extortionately so in many acts cases because this their source of income now and not album sales.
matwood 10y ago
> For example, lots of bands work very hard to put on shows that are affordable for their fans. Scalpers taking advantage of the situation is an example of this-is-why-we-can't-have-nice-things. Don't believe their hype. If bands wanted to make shows cheaper they only have to do more shows.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  >"If bands wanted to make shows cheaper they only have to do more shows." That's often not feasible. Booking dates depends on a venues schedule. Its often not possible to book a venue for 2 or even 3 nights in a row, especially in primary markets.
  - criddell 10y ago
    Plus artists would probably like to put on better shows (of which the audience is a key part) rather than more shows. Quality over quantity.

gpawl 10y ago

Some people are libertarian, some are not. They argue. It's not complicated, it's the free market of ideas.