6 ms·

> at least for professionals? Professional whats? Executives, salespeople, real estate agents, pediatricians, beer distributors - all of these people are profe

> at least for professionals? Professional whats? Executives, salespeople, real estate agents, pediatricians, beer distributors - all of these people are professionals, and all of them can and do benefit from smaller and lighter computing power. Clearly your idea of a professional is someone who is chained to a desk writing code or processing complex 3D graphics. No question those are professional uses as well, but the idea of a 'professional computer user' covers a lot more ground these days than your insular definition.

nxc18 10y ago
I see no reason why any of those people benefit from the slightly thinner form of the new mbp than they would benefit from better battery life. Everyone wants batteries that last longer. How often did you look at your last generation mbp and wish it was thinner?
- qeternity 10y ago
  These people are lugging their laptop around all day, from meeting to meeting, or airport to airport. If you can keep battery life constant at ca. 10 hours, which covers an extended work day, then beyond that most people would prefer to have lighter/slimmer/cooler (less hot) devices than one that runs for 20 hours.
  - deepGem 10y ago
    Agreed. I think heat dissipation is often overlooked while making a buying decision. Regarding overall portability, I think the 13 inch MacBook air is a good compromise. The new 13 inch MacBook pro is about the same weight, but obviously a lot more powerful, and is smaller in dimensions. It's a breeze to work on planes with this machine. I'd rather see the next iteration of MacBook Pros with better heat dissipation and longer battery life than with 1 mm improvement in thickness.
    - rz2k 10y ago
      Thinner implies a better ratio of surface area to volume for dissipating heat. Though, I suppose a laptop could be thicker by including empty space with fans and airflow to exhaust the heat out the sides rather than conducting it through the surfaces touched by users.
      - deepGem 10y ago
        Right, also heat dissipation is a function of the processors. I don't think Intel has any processor offerings in the i5 and i7 families which will enable fan-less laptop design. Asus seems to have swapped the Core M processors with the i5 and i7 families in their latest Zenbooks. At 700$ this laptop is a steal. https://www.amazon.com/UX330UA-AH54-13-3-inch-Ultra-Slim-Processor-Speakers/dp/B01M18UZF5/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1487056102&sr=1-1&keywords=asus+zenbook https://www.amazon.com/UX330UA-AH54-13-3-inch-Ultra-Slim-Pro...
      - dilemma 10y ago
        Why would thickness matter for heat dissipation? It's not a block of copper so it's not relevant.
      - snovv_crash 10y ago
        You don't increase the surface area of a laptop by making it thinner. Sure the ratio changes, but I'm not sure how that is relevant.
  - tmd83 10y ago
    I can agree on lighter, cooler or even smaller (in length/width) but really slimmer? As I said in another thread, what does a slimmer laptop gives you in present day.
    - spiderfarmer 10y ago
      For a consultancy job I carry two notebooks around. A company provided Lenovo laptop and Macbook pro. Would love to have a lighter laptop, without resorting to cheap plastic. I don't want a smaller screen as I can't connect external monitors there and my eyes are not that great. I love the fact that I don't have to carry a charger for the Macbook, even after 2 years of usage it still runs long enough to last a workday.
      - rusk 10y ago
        > even after 2 years of usage Okay so its not the new Macbook we're talking about here. I think I may have the same one, I bought it in 2014 and I love it. It still takes everything I throw at it, and it connects to everything. Full SSD which I was wary of at first but once you get used to no moving parts - which don't break - it's hard to imagine going back to clunky spinning platters. I'd be hard pressed to go for the new MBPs though. My 2014 is so light it barely registers as it is. I'd prefer to keep the same degree of connectivity and utility. The new one I'm afraid seems a bit much of show pony. I'm concerned with the direction Apple's software is taking as well. Others here mention the abandonment of the high end, with regards to photography, video, music etc. but even the middle-ground is a mess. iTunes keeps getting clunkier and clunkier to the point where I'm seriously considering not getting an iPhone because that's the last reason I need to use it at this stage. I think the Photos app leaves a lot to be desired as well. A lot of people moaned about iPhoto - but to me it seemed way better. Then there was Yosemite, which is actually the only dark period in my MBP's life. Things would just mysteriously stop working, and regular reboots were fairly common. What particularly stands out is that fiasco around mDnsResponder / Discoveryd - which ironically most acutely affected users with a mostly Apple ecosystem. Each of these three instances, as well as other notables such as Apple maps, are cases where Apple just couldn't "leave well enough alone"; took something that worked okay and foisted a big steaming pile of dog poo on us instead. In fairness though the emphasis seems to be on "think different" these days rather than "it just works" but it may as well be "software is hard, lets go shopping". Sorry, I seem to have gone way off on a tangent here. Though I feel the general sentiment is still OT. Thanks!
  - seanp2k2 10y ago
    Sure, if it actually lasted 10 hours in real-life usage, which it doesn't, which they could have prevented by using the 99wh battery instead of the 76wh which was chosen to make it thinner. I'm nearly positive that it would make a 1mm difference in the overall thickness and a small addition weight-wise (LiPo packs are not super heavy). At least give people a choice. The 17" used to be fantastic as well, and I still miss it. It was big and bulky enough that causal users didn't want it and so Apple didn't have to try to appease them with it as much. It'd be great if they licensed MacOS again if they're going to give up on the higher end as we've seen with the Mac Pro 0-upgrades-in-4-years zero-commitment-to-the-platform approach they've taken, as we've seen with killing Xserve, with the dual-core-only Mac minis after the 2012 model, with iMacs using all laptop parts... They message they send is clear: we make computers to do Facebook and some Excel on, not for making movies (FinalCut Pro X dropping tons of pro features), not for photographers (Aperture is discontinued), not for DJs (no more FireWire and 100% USB-C), not for programmers or hacker types (check how old their versions of unix tools are, dtrace locked out with rootless AKA SIP, non-upgradable/repairable hardware, Mac App Store limitations). All the reasons macs sold so well with pros before are basically nonexistent in 2017, and I predict that they'll slowly fade out of the pro scenes. At some point, consumers will notice ("why doesn't every major DJ have the glowing Apple logo on stage anymore???") and they will stop being cool. I'm pretty convinced that all it would take to usurp Apple is a really solid design like an old IBM or a sturdy Dell with a touchpad that doesn't register your palm half the time, and a chassis that doesn't droop a few mm on one side when you pick it near the corner. Sadly, even today, there are not many options for laptops that don't feel like complete crap compared to any MacBook.
- bbgm 10y ago
  Often enough. I've stopped traveling with my MBP in favor of a 12" iPad pro. Likewise, on a day full of meetings, my MBP stays at my desk connected to a giant monitor and I walk around with the iPad Pro. I am not alone from what I have observed.
- ciaranm 10y ago
  I cycle with my MBP on my back every day. I also develop backend apps using VMs and need processing power. I bought the 15" MBP because this time around it was light enough for me. A year ago I would have got the 13", and been sad that I didn't have a bigger screen or faster machine. Make of that what you will, but we exist.
- bluedino 10y ago
  >> How often did you look at your last generation mbp and wish it was thinner? Never. Not once. I almost found it comical how thick the old MacBook Pro was to my Retina MacBook Pro. Then after using a new one for a while and going back to my once-thin rMBP 13", it feels as thick as the old generation.
exergy 10y ago
Please explain to me how complicated and demanding is the workflow of these "salespeople, real estate agents, pediatricians and beer distributors(!)" that you talk about? What exactly is stopping them from getting the smaller 12" MacBook? Or the infinite other ultrabooks available now? Something called the "Pro", and something that costs a pretty penny, shouldn't just cater to the ones out and about and only needing Excel.
- Someone 10y ago
  12" may be too small to show stuff to other people sitting around a table, or too uncomfortable on their eyes.
  - lstamour 10y ago
    So they'll release a 15" version of the 12" soon enough. The point still stands: if Apple is the only ones making Macs, they need to cater to those who would prefer workstations or gaming rigs as the highest end "Pro" market. If it needs a separate graphics card, it's not for Excel...
    - techdragon 10y ago
      Let's be brutally realistic. They don't "need" to... We just really want them to.
      - marcosdumay 10y ago
        Time will tell that. They made their brand exactly by caring about the people they are throwing away now. It's not obvious if their brand will sustain itself without those people.
    - yoz-y 10y ago
      I think the ship on gaming macs has sailed. Apple has shown intermittent interest in high end computing, rendering, compilation and so. But the only "gaming" machine they ever produced is the iPad. None of their PCs was even remotely competitive with the competition and I believe they do not care. I think that the only thing that could "trick" them into making a gaming machine is VR, as it requires similar hardware.
amelius 10y ago
> Professional whats? Executives, salespeople, real estate agents, pediatricians, beer distributors - all of these people are professionals, and all of them can and do benefit from smaller and lighter computing power. You and the OP highlight a problem here: Apple's offerings in the "pro" segment is too limited to satisfy all different users' needs. Apple needs to diversify.
yaseer 10y ago
You're conflating a 'professional' as a white-collar job classification, and a 'professional' computer user. The macbook pro is a computer for professional computer users. A professional philosophy professor has no need of a macbook pro, a professional video-editor does. Being a 'professional; in your white-collar classification, doesn't imply that you're a professional computer user. It's not an insular definition, it's a specific definition.
- glhaynes 10y ago
  A professional philosophy professor has no need of a macbook pro, a professional video-editor does. I don't see why. A philosophy professor might prefer a larger screen and a faster CPU for their web browsing and document editing. And, while a professional video-editor would understandably gripe about it, I have no doubt they could get their work done—if they had to—on a 12" MacBook. Video editors used to get fine work done on Pentiums that offered a small fraction of the performance. It's not an insular definition, it's a specific definition. Set by whom? Where?
  - yaseer 10y ago
    I'm sure you can find some philosophy professors that will appreciate bigger screens and faster computers; that wasn't the point. This is about the semantics of the word 'professional' and avoiding confusing a 'professional' in the white-collar-job sense, and a 'professional computer user'. Set by whom? Where? Well, apple don't define their terms formally in a Dictionary, they're subject to interpretation. I would say they've historically marketed the Macbook pro as a computer for 'professional computer users', not 'professional' in the white-collar vs blue-collar sense of the word.

nxc18 10y ago

I see no reason why any of those people benefit from the slightly thinner form of the new mbp than they would benefit from better battery life. Everyone wants batteries that last longer. How often did you look at your last generation mbp and wish it was thinner?

qeternity 10y ago
These people are lugging their laptop around all day, from meeting to meeting, or airport to airport. If you can keep battery life constant at ca. 10 hours, which covers an extended work day, then beyond that most people would prefer to have lighter/slimmer/cooler (less hot) devices than one that runs for 20 hours.
- deepGem 10y ago
  Agreed. I think heat dissipation is often overlooked while making a buying decision. Regarding overall portability, I think the 13 inch MacBook air is a good compromise. The new 13 inch MacBook pro is about the same weight, but obviously a lot more powerful, and is smaller in dimensions. It's a breeze to work on planes with this machine. I'd rather see the next iteration of MacBook Pros with better heat dissipation and longer battery life than with 1 mm improvement in thickness.
  - rz2k 10y ago
    Thinner implies a better ratio of surface area to volume for dissipating heat. Though, I suppose a laptop could be thicker by including empty space with fans and airflow to exhaust the heat out the sides rather than conducting it through the surfaces touched by users.
    - deepGem 10y ago
      Right, also heat dissipation is a function of the processors. I don't think Intel has any processor offerings in the i5 and i7 families which will enable fan-less laptop design. Asus seems to have swapped the Core M processors with the i5 and i7 families in their latest Zenbooks. At 700$ this laptop is a steal. https://www.amazon.com/UX330UA-AH54-13-3-inch-Ultra-Slim-Processor-Speakers/dp/B01M18UZF5/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1487056102&sr=1-1&keywords=asus+zenbook https://www.amazon.com/UX330UA-AH54-13-3-inch-Ultra-Slim-Pro...
    - dilemma 10y ago
      Why would thickness matter for heat dissipation? It's not a block of copper so it's not relevant.
    - snovv_crash 10y ago
      You don't increase the surface area of a laptop by making it thinner. Sure the ratio changes, but I'm not sure how that is relevant.
- tmd83 10y ago
  I can agree on lighter, cooler or even smaller (in length/width) but really slimmer? As I said in another thread, what does a slimmer laptop gives you in present day.
  - spiderfarmer 10y ago
    For a consultancy job I carry two notebooks around. A company provided Lenovo laptop and Macbook pro. Would love to have a lighter laptop, without resorting to cheap plastic. I don't want a smaller screen as I can't connect external monitors there and my eyes are not that great. I love the fact that I don't have to carry a charger for the Macbook, even after 2 years of usage it still runs long enough to last a workday.
    - rusk 10y ago
      > even after 2 years of usage Okay so its not the new Macbook we're talking about here. I think I may have the same one, I bought it in 2014 and I love it. It still takes everything I throw at it, and it connects to everything. Full SSD which I was wary of at first but once you get used to no moving parts - which don't break - it's hard to imagine going back to clunky spinning platters. I'd be hard pressed to go for the new MBPs though. My 2014 is so light it barely registers as it is. I'd prefer to keep the same degree of connectivity and utility. The new one I'm afraid seems a bit much of show pony. I'm concerned with the direction Apple's software is taking as well. Others here mention the abandonment of the high end, with regards to photography, video, music etc. but even the middle-ground is a mess. iTunes keeps getting clunkier and clunkier to the point where I'm seriously considering not getting an iPhone because that's the last reason I need to use it at this stage. I think the Photos app leaves a lot to be desired as well. A lot of people moaned about iPhoto - but to me it seemed way better. Then there was Yosemite, which is actually the only dark period in my MBP's life. Things would just mysteriously stop working, and regular reboots were fairly common. What particularly stands out is that fiasco around mDnsResponder / Discoveryd - which ironically most acutely affected users with a mostly Apple ecosystem. Each of these three instances, as well as other notables such as Apple maps, are cases where Apple just couldn't "leave well enough alone"; took something that worked okay and foisted a big steaming pile of dog poo on us instead. In fairness though the emphasis seems to be on "think different" these days rather than "it just works" but it may as well be "software is hard, lets go shopping". Sorry, I seem to have gone way off on a tangent here. Though I feel the general sentiment is still OT. Thanks!
- seanp2k2 10y ago
  Sure, if it actually lasted 10 hours in real-life usage, which it doesn't, which they could have prevented by using the 99wh battery instead of the 76wh which was chosen to make it thinner. I'm nearly positive that it would make a 1mm difference in the overall thickness and a small addition weight-wise (LiPo packs are not super heavy). At least give people a choice. The 17" used to be fantastic as well, and I still miss it. It was big and bulky enough that causal users didn't want it and so Apple didn't have to try to appease them with it as much. It'd be great if they licensed MacOS again if they're going to give up on the higher end as we've seen with the Mac Pro 0-upgrades-in-4-years zero-commitment-to-the-platform approach they've taken, as we've seen with killing Xserve, with the dual-core-only Mac minis after the 2012 model, with iMacs using all laptop parts... They message they send is clear: we make computers to do Facebook and some Excel on, not for making movies (FinalCut Pro X dropping tons of pro features), not for photographers (Aperture is discontinued), not for DJs (no more FireWire and 100% USB-C), not for programmers or hacker types (check how old their versions of unix tools are, dtrace locked out with rootless AKA SIP, non-upgradable/repairable hardware, Mac App Store limitations). All the reasons macs sold so well with pros before are basically nonexistent in 2017, and I predict that they'll slowly fade out of the pro scenes. At some point, consumers will notice ("why doesn't every major DJ have the glowing Apple logo on stage anymore???") and they will stop being cool. I'm pretty convinced that all it would take to usurp Apple is a really solid design like an old IBM or a sturdy Dell with a touchpad that doesn't register your palm half the time, and a chassis that doesn't droop a few mm on one side when you pick it near the corner. Sadly, even today, there are not many options for laptops that don't feel like complete crap compared to any MacBook.
bbgm 10y ago
Often enough. I've stopped traveling with my MBP in favor of a 12" iPad pro. Likewise, on a day full of meetings, my MBP stays at my desk connected to a giant monitor and I walk around with the iPad Pro. I am not alone from what I have observed.
ciaranm 10y ago
I cycle with my MBP on my back every day. I also develop backend apps using VMs and need processing power. I bought the 15" MBP because this time around it was light enough for me. A year ago I would have got the 13", and been sad that I didn't have a bigger screen or faster machine. Make of that what you will, but we exist.
bluedino 10y ago
>> How often did you look at your last generation mbp and wish it was thinner? Never. Not once. I almost found it comical how thick the old MacBook Pro was to my Retina MacBook Pro. Then after using a new one for a while and going back to my once-thin rMBP 13", it feels as thick as the old generation.

exergy 10y ago

Please explain to me how complicated and demanding is the workflow of these "salespeople, real estate agents, pediatricians and beer distributors(!)" that you talk about? What exactly is stopping them from getting the smaller 12" MacBook? Or the infinite other ultrabooks available now? Something called the "Pro", and something that costs a pretty penny, shouldn't just cater to the ones out and about and only needing Excel.

Someone 10y ago
12" may be too small to show stuff to other people sitting around a table, or too uncomfortable on their eyes.
- lstamour 10y ago
  So they'll release a 15" version of the 12" soon enough. The point still stands: if Apple is the only ones making Macs, they need to cater to those who would prefer workstations or gaming rigs as the highest end "Pro" market. If it needs a separate graphics card, it's not for Excel...
  - techdragon 10y ago
    Let's be brutally realistic. They don't "need" to... We just really want them to.
    - marcosdumay 10y ago
      Time will tell that. They made their brand exactly by caring about the people they are throwing away now. It's not obvious if their brand will sustain itself without those people.
  - yoz-y 10y ago
    I think the ship on gaming macs has sailed. Apple has shown intermittent interest in high end computing, rendering, compilation and so. But the only "gaming" machine they ever produced is the iPad. None of their PCs was even remotely competitive with the competition and I believe they do not care. I think that the only thing that could "trick" them into making a gaming machine is VR, as it requires similar hardware.

amelius 10y ago

> Professional whats? Executives, salespeople, real estate agents, pediatricians, beer distributors - all of these people are professionals, and all of them can and do benefit from smaller and lighter computing power. You and the OP highlight a problem here: Apple's offerings in the "pro" segment is too limited to satisfy all different users' needs. Apple needs to diversify.

yaseer 10y ago

You're conflating a 'professional' as a white-collar job classification, and a 'professional' computer user. The macbook pro is a computer for professional computer users. A professional philosophy professor has no need of a macbook pro, a professional video-editor does. Being a 'professional; in your white-collar classification, doesn't imply that you're a professional computer user. It's not an insular definition, it's a specific definition.

glhaynes 10y ago
A professional philosophy professor has no need of a macbook pro, a professional video-editor does. I don't see why. A philosophy professor might prefer a larger screen and a faster CPU for their web browsing and document editing. And, while a professional video-editor would understandably gripe about it, I have no doubt they could get their work done—if they had to—on a 12" MacBook. Video editors used to get fine work done on Pentiums that offered a small fraction of the performance. It's not an insular definition, it's a specific definition. Set by whom? Where?
- yaseer 10y ago
  I'm sure you can find some philosophy professors that will appreciate bigger screens and faster computers; that wasn't the point. This is about the semantics of the word 'professional' and avoiding confusing a 'professional' in the white-collar-job sense, and a 'professional computer user'. Set by whom? Where? Well, apple don't define their terms formally in a Dictionary, they're subject to interpretation. I would say they've historically marketed the Macbook pro as a computer for 'professional computer users', not 'professional' in the white-collar vs blue-collar sense of the word.