23 ms·

What happens when you dump the App Store?

183 points by ColanR 10y ago

zitterbewegung 10y ago
Should be macOS App Store title seems to imply the iOS one .
- tiglionabbit 10y ago
  Wow, yeah. This is heavily implied by the header image that's full of iOS app shapes. My first thought was, how do you even get an app on your iPhone without the App store? That's just for developers, right? My next thought was that I generally don't discover things through the iOS App Store. I usually have to be told that they exist first, and even then the search doesn't always give me what I want since the App Store is full of knock-offs that should have been deleted for copyright infringement. But the App Store on desktop? Most folks are still used to the old way of going to a website and downloading a DMG.
- huangc10 10y ago
  Agreed. Title is misleading and is clearly clickbait. Please admin switch this.
  - eriknstr 10y ago
    I'm surprised that the mods still haven't done anything about the title.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    You need to email them.
    - eriknstr 10y ago
      Shouldn't flagging it be sufficient?
      - grzm 10y ago
        Flagging generally means the submission is inappropriate for HN. It affects ranking and, if flagged heavily enough, will kill the submission. Flagging isn't a "call" button for mods. I don't think they generally review a submission just because it's been flagged by a user.
- lucb1e 10y ago
  Oh wow, I skimmed most of the article, mostly looking for how they got the app on iPhones, and did not even catch this. Misleading indeed.
BoorishBears 10y ago
*What happens when you pull a well established app with an extremely well established (and very tech savvy) user base from the macOS App Store in a public fashion.
- dirtae 10y ago
  Piezo, Rogue Amoeba's app, was removed from the Mac App Store with "minimal publicity", according to their blog post: https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2017/02/10/piezos-life-outside-the-app-store/ https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2017/02/10/piezos-life-outsid...
  - paulkafasis 10y ago
    That is quite correct. When we removed Piezo from the Mac App Store a year ago, we didn't send out a press release, nor seek publicity over this move in any way. We simply removed it and explained why on our blog (https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2016/02/12/piezo-1-5-arrives-piezo-exits-the-mac-app-store/ https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2016/02/12/piezo-1-5-arrives-...). That was it. We can certainly debate how well-established or tech-savvy our users are (though I will note that Piezo is by far our simplest application, and used by the least technically savvy among our user base). But to say that we did this in a “public fashion” is just false.
    - zepto 10y ago
      True, but your own brand and storefront is very well established and respected for more than a decade. This makes the story entirely unrepresentative of what happens when developers in general quit the Mac App Store.
      - ivm 10y ago
        We started outside of the App Store because of its sandboxing restriction. It's still 2nd to 3rd page of search results despite having some reviews and only a couple of competitors. So a considerable investment in SEO is required.
spott 10y ago
The value-add of the mac store is just not very good anymore. There are only three reasons people might buy something from the mac store vs. from the developer directly: 1. To keep it getting updates through the app store vs. having to download from the developer when a new update comes out. 2. They found it in the mac store, and thus purchased it in the mac store. 3. They trust apple to reduce the risk of malware when using the mac store vs. a developers web page. The mac store is getting really hard to navigate, and it doesn't give any useful search functionality, so #2 is disappearing as a reason people are buying from the apple store. #1 is nice, but with auto updates, it is disappearing as well. #3 isn't generally an issue for developers or "power users", so it is gone as well. Honestly, I can't think of a reasonable reason to put something in the mac store that is oriented towards developers or power users. The hit in revenue just isn't worth the benefits. Though I would love to hear from someone who came to a different conclusion.
- tiglionabbit 10y ago
  My #1 reason to use it is that it puts the purchase on my record so I can easily re-download it if I happen to lose it somehow. No more searching through ancient emails for activation codes.
  - slantyyz 10y ago
    Also, it's easier (and often cheaper) if you own multiple computers. No complex registration/deregistration of computers to ensure license compliance.
  - jedberg 10y ago
    But if an app is not available on the app store, does that stop you from getting it? That's a consumer benefit but it has no corresponding benefit to the developer, so it's unlikely to be a good argument for a developer to stick with the app store.
    - vkou 10y ago
      It's a developer benefit if consumers feel averse to buying software that they can't re-download/update from a centralized software store (App Store, Steam, etc).
ThomPete 10y ago
I pulled my mac app http://www.ghostnoteapp.com http://www.ghostnoteapp.com from the appstore back in '15 only 5 months after launching it and haven't looked back since. It's still a pretty profitable app for me and I actually enjoy the freedom of not having to have it go through review process. For most mac apps people are googling rather than browsing the app store anyway.
- huangc10 10y ago
  It's smart of you to still use the App Store logo though. ;) I'll give you that.
  - pg_is_a_butt 10y ago
    smart to use the snapchat logo as well. that way when apple sues, you can argue that you steal all your logos. you're all idiots.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    Interesting never thought about it like that. To me the icon indicating it's app store is this: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/marketing/guidelines/#downloadOnAppstore https://developer.apple.com/app-store/marketing/guidelines/#... But now you actually got me wondering if I should change it.
    - huangc10 10y ago
      Nah man, you got a nice looking button there. I'd stick with it unless you get a warning from Apple. Keep up the good work!
    - eridius 10y ago
      You probably should. Your usage of the App Store logo is likely in contradiction with Apple's rules, and since it's their IP, they get to dictate how it's used.
      - eridius 10y ago
exabrial 10y ago
I greatly dislike the osx app store. It's intrusive, slow (even over Google fiber), has an awful UI, and is generally annoying.
- bsaul 10y ago
  Evey single thing of those apple store is a gigantic shame. Interface for browsing content ( itunes) : sucks, absolute disaster. Interface for publishing content ( itunesconnect) : feels like the work of an intern Review process : lottery. Never know for sure if your business isn't going to get killed by an eula update. Development tools ( xcode ) : so bad it becomes embarrassing. Commission : 30% is a total ripoff. Should be half of it, max. Content indexing / discoverability : nonexistant. So bad they had to force developpers to remove working but non updated apps. And I could go on and on, but really, the only reason it remains this bad is because apple is in a de facto monopoly position on everything related to their products.
seanalltogether 10y ago
I really really really wish amazon would just develop a vendor neutral app store already. Valve seems unwilling to branch into apps outside the sphere of the gaming community. Apple and Microsoft seem to not care about the features that would make their stores more attractive to both buyers and sellers.
- lmm 10y ago
  They have a store on android, but I don't get the impression it's been a massive success.
  - fpgeek 10y ago
    It's been good enough to support their Kindle Fire ecosystem without using Google Play (I don't think anyone else has succeeded with something like that outside China), but they're still propping it up on non-Amazon devices by tying Amazon Video to it, so...
- throwaway2048 10y ago
  valve has tried with various creative tools like 3d modelers etc, but few seem to care.
bsaul 10y ago
Wonder if any of those three giant stores ( google, apple and especially amazon) aren't going to be facing the next wave of anti-trust lawsuits in tech.
awalton 10y ago
I wonder if articles like this will hasten non-app-store-apps' demise. Apple has already appeared to be quite itchy to lock down everything and weld the hood shut, throwing vendor kexts out of the kernel left and right and introducing ChromeOS-like OS verification steps, making users jump through several hoops to run downloaded executables... Apple's going to eventually want to stem the outgoing tide before too many apps flee the walled sandbox and have a voice loud enough that they can't simply ignore. (It's only a matter of "when" really; they made the OS free because they fully intend to get their 30% cut on every app sold, moving the iOS model to the Desktop.)
- api 10y ago
  If/when they do this, I'm gone from OSX. This can fly on mobile because ultimately mobile devices are just dumb terms for accessing the cloud. I don't think it'll fly on real computers, especially for the pro market and developers.
i336_ 10y ago
To mods: I flagged this to bring attention to the clickbait title: this is NOT referring to iOS. The post title here is the same as the article title but I would still recommend changing it, even if just to "macOS App Store".
- i336_ 10y ago
  Small edit - I just realized "Mac App Store" could work as well, that's what I understand it's usually called.
arielm 10y ago
I think that without knowing the y-axis of that chart it's hard to judge whether it's really not worth it to even be listed. Mac apps are more niche than their mobile counterparts. Why is a discussion for a different time, but _selling_ niche products is very different than freemium or even paid mobile apps. If sales are low on a daily basis I'd say the downloads came from users who knew what they wanted and just needed a way to get it, which is what I suspect is happening. I'm not trying to defend the Mac App Store here, obviously it leaves a lot to be desired as it related to discovery. I'm not sure if we can blame Apple for that or not though. Desktop app stores never really took off with steam being the only exception. And steam isn't for apps. The only real advantage I see the MAS could have is credibility when it gets to subscriptions. Let's see how Apple will handle that.
- fpgeek 10y ago
  > Desktop app stores never really took off with steam being the only exception. And steam isn't for apps. Mobile app stores aren't for apps (or at least paid apps) either. If you filter out all the games, the frontends for external services and all the other free apps, how much is left? How significant is it?
beezischillin 10y ago
From a user's point of view the App Store (on every Apple platform, from tvOS to the Watch) is an incredibly bad deal, with awesome offerings. * The centralised payment really incentivises users to buy apps (myself included, I find myself thinking about buying something a lot less when only having to trust one source with my information, and that source ensures that their system works well for me). * iCloud Sync is a really big bonus for most of the work-related apps I bought and it's painfully missing when you read that devs pulled their software from the store and you cannot access it anymore. * The fact that I can comfortably download all the software I bought without keeping track of it is a bonus - if I ever have to reset a device, it's a giant bonus. And the negatives: * It stifles innovation -- content discovery is almost impossible! Within two clicks you can arrive at endless lists of shovel-ware - the top lists are almost completely unusable in my region as a way to find new and interesting apps. Same goes for categories (on stores that even have a somewhat OK system of categories). The Watch / TV stores are horrible! For some reason I always seem to run out of content to browse, even tho there are (possibly) hundreds of thousands of apps on that platform. The only half-acceptable way I found to look for new stuff is to browse Apple's curated collections (which almost always are very samey). Now I wouldn't say this is worse than Google Play, for example, I recently browsed through it and had a similar experience, however that should be enough to call attention to the issue, since the Apple app store is usually considered more sophisticated * Search: it's not very good, from the App Store to Apple Music tolerance on misspelling names or searching for approximates is bad. * You're forced to only use their system of delivery, unless you're on macOS (which's future is looking dubious on that front as well), so you're inherently forced to deal with the negatives, without having a choice of other ecosystems. I love my Apple products, I've almost completely switched to their ecosystem within the last two years, but I am really hoping to see as much work on these issues as on the pull-up music player menu on the Control Center. Just because the competition is not on another, better level, it does not mean that having to constantly Google to discover great new apps is acceptable.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
murukesh_s 10y ago
Apple should lower the fees for desktop apps. The developer license, while only 100$, is still a factor that prevents indie developers from considering the App Store. Perhaps make it free for free and open source apps. And only take a commission for paid apps. The mobile app store was different because that was the only option for developers at that time. Apple would ideally like to make it that way even on the desktops eventually, but that would suck.
erikb 10y ago
We should make a clear difference here between any App Store and a computer App store. Sure, people will not care much when it's a computer app store, since they have long experience in installing programs without it. But when it comes to smartphone/tablet app stores, not being in one of them means your program is dead.
mmjaa 10y ago
home-brew is my App Store these days. I only go to the 'official' Mac App Store out of curiosity to see new releases - and then I wait until they show up in 'brew cask'. If they don't: meh. I don't care. If they do, then I happily use home-brew to install new apps. The reason? home-brew is just such an elegant way of administering installed Apps without doing the 'download, mount, drag to ~/Applications, etc.' dance ..
amelius 10y ago
If too many devs flee the app store, then chances are Apple makes the app-store mandatory for installing new apps.
- masklinn 10y ago
  Not really. This is about MAS not iOS appstore. There's no way Apple can require MAS-install, everybody would up and leave the ecosystem entirely (too many useful tools can't even fit in MAS's restrictions) and MAS has never had much value-add for the constraints and cost.
eonw 10y ago
as a mac user, i always prefer to download the dmg directly. i only use the app store for OS updates, xcode and itunes updates.

183 points by ColanR 10y ago

zitterbewegung 10y ago

Should be macOS App Store title seems to imply the iOS one .

tiglionabbit 10y ago
Wow, yeah. This is heavily implied by the header image that's full of iOS app shapes. My first thought was, how do you even get an app on your iPhone without the App store? That's just for developers, right? My next thought was that I generally don't discover things through the iOS App Store. I usually have to be told that they exist first, and even then the search doesn't always give me what I want since the App Store is full of knock-offs that should have been deleted for copyright infringement. But the App Store on desktop? Most folks are still used to the old way of going to a website and downloading a DMG.
huangc10 10y ago
Agreed. Title is misleading and is clearly clickbait. Please admin switch this.
- eriknstr 10y ago
  I'm surprised that the mods still haven't done anything about the title.
- DanBC 10y ago
  You need to email them.
  - eriknstr 10y ago
    Shouldn't flagging it be sufficient?
    - grzm 10y ago
      Flagging generally means the submission is inappropriate for HN. It affects ranking and, if flagged heavily enough, will kill the submission. Flagging isn't a "call" button for mods. I don't think they generally review a submission just because it's been flagged by a user.
lucb1e 10y ago
Oh wow, I skimmed most of the article, mostly looking for how they got the app on iPhones, and did not even catch this. Misleading indeed.

BoorishBears 10y ago

*What happens when you pull a well established app with an extremely well established (and very tech savvy) user base from the macOS App Store in a public fashion.

dirtae 10y ago
Piezo, Rogue Amoeba's app, was removed from the Mac App Store with "minimal publicity", according to their blog post: https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2017/02/10/piezos-life-outside-the-app-store/ https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2017/02/10/piezos-life-outsid...
- paulkafasis 10y ago
  That is quite correct. When we removed Piezo from the Mac App Store a year ago, we didn't send out a press release, nor seek publicity over this move in any way. We simply removed it and explained why on our blog (https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2016/02/12/piezo-1-5-arrives-piezo-exits-the-mac-app-store/ https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2016/02/12/piezo-1-5-arrives-...). That was it. We can certainly debate how well-established or tech-savvy our users are (though I will note that Piezo is by far our simplest application, and used by the least technically savvy among our user base). But to say that we did this in a “public fashion” is just false.
  - zepto 10y ago
    True, but your own brand and storefront is very well established and respected for more than a decade. This makes the story entirely unrepresentative of what happens when developers in general quit the Mac App Store.
    - ivm 10y ago
      We started outside of the App Store because of its sandboxing restriction. It's still 2nd to 3rd page of search results despite having some reviews and only a couple of competitors. So a considerable investment in SEO is required.

spott 10y ago

The value-add of the mac store is just not very good anymore. There are only three reasons people might buy something from the mac store vs. from the developer directly: 1. To keep it getting updates through the app store vs. having to download from the developer when a new update comes out. 2. They found it in the mac store, and thus purchased it in the mac store. 3. They trust apple to reduce the risk of malware when using the mac store vs. a developers web page. The mac store is getting really hard to navigate, and it doesn't give any useful search functionality, so #2 is disappearing as a reason people are buying from the apple store. #1 is nice, but with auto updates, it is disappearing as well. #3 isn't generally an issue for developers or "power users", so it is gone as well. Honestly, I can't think of a reasonable reason to put something in the mac store that is oriented towards developers or power users. The hit in revenue just isn't worth the benefits. Though I would love to hear from someone who came to a different conclusion.

tiglionabbit 10y ago
My #1 reason to use it is that it puts the purchase on my record so I can easily re-download it if I happen to lose it somehow. No more searching through ancient emails for activation codes.
- slantyyz 10y ago
  Also, it's easier (and often cheaper) if you own multiple computers. No complex registration/deregistration of computers to ensure license compliance.
- jedberg 10y ago
  But if an app is not available on the app store, does that stop you from getting it? That's a consumer benefit but it has no corresponding benefit to the developer, so it's unlikely to be a good argument for a developer to stick with the app store.
  - vkou 10y ago
    It's a developer benefit if consumers feel averse to buying software that they can't re-download/update from a centralized software store (App Store, Steam, etc).

ThomPete 10y ago

I pulled my mac app http://www.ghostnoteapp.com http://www.ghostnoteapp.com from the appstore back in '15 only 5 months after launching it and haven't looked back since. It's still a pretty profitable app for me and I actually enjoy the freedom of not having to have it go through review process. For most mac apps people are googling rather than browsing the app store anyway.

huangc10 10y ago
It's smart of you to still use the App Store logo though. ;) I'll give you that.
- pg_is_a_butt 10y ago
  smart to use the snapchat logo as well. that way when apple sues, you can argue that you steal all your logos. you're all idiots.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  Interesting never thought about it like that. To me the icon indicating it's app store is this: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/marketing/guidelines/#downloadOnAppstore https://developer.apple.com/app-store/marketing/guidelines/#... But now you actually got me wondering if I should change it.
  - huangc10 10y ago
    Nah man, you got a nice looking button there. I'd stick with it unless you get a warning from Apple. Keep up the good work!
  - eridius 10y ago
    You probably should. Your usage of the App Store logo is likely in contradiction with Apple's rules, and since it's their IP, they get to dictate how it's used.
    - eridius 10y ago

exabrial 10y ago

I greatly dislike the osx app store. It's intrusive, slow (even over Google fiber), has an awful UI, and is generally annoying.

bsaul 10y ago
Evey single thing of those apple store is a gigantic shame. Interface for browsing content ( itunes) : sucks, absolute disaster. Interface for publishing content ( itunesconnect) : feels like the work of an intern Review process : lottery. Never know for sure if your business isn't going to get killed by an eula update. Development tools ( xcode ) : so bad it becomes embarrassing. Commission : 30% is a total ripoff. Should be half of it, max. Content indexing / discoverability : nonexistant. So bad they had to force developpers to remove working but non updated apps. And I could go on and on, but really, the only reason it remains this bad is because apple is in a de facto monopoly position on everything related to their products.

seanalltogether 10y ago

I really really really wish amazon would just develop a vendor neutral app store already. Valve seems unwilling to branch into apps outside the sphere of the gaming community. Apple and Microsoft seem to not care about the features that would make their stores more attractive to both buyers and sellers.

lmm 10y ago
They have a store on android, but I don't get the impression it's been a massive success.
- fpgeek 10y ago
  It's been good enough to support their Kindle Fire ecosystem without using Google Play (I don't think anyone else has succeeded with something like that outside China), but they're still propping it up on non-Amazon devices by tying Amazon Video to it, so...
throwaway2048 10y ago
valve has tried with various creative tools like 3d modelers etc, but few seem to care.

bsaul 10y ago

Wonder if any of those three giant stores ( google, apple and especially amazon) aren't going to be facing the next wave of anti-trust lawsuits in tech.

awalton 10y ago

I wonder if articles like this will hasten non-app-store-apps' demise. Apple has already appeared to be quite itchy to lock down everything and weld the hood shut, throwing vendor kexts out of the kernel left and right and introducing ChromeOS-like OS verification steps, making users jump through several hoops to run downloaded executables... Apple's going to eventually want to stem the outgoing tide before too many apps flee the walled sandbox and have a voice loud enough that they can't simply ignore. (It's only a matter of "when" really; they made the OS free because they fully intend to get their 30% cut on every app sold, moving the iOS model to the Desktop.)

api 10y ago
If/when they do this, I'm gone from OSX. This can fly on mobile because ultimately mobile devices are just dumb terms for accessing the cloud. I don't think it'll fly on real computers, especially for the pro market and developers.

i336_ 10y ago

To mods: I flagged this to bring attention to the clickbait title: this is NOT referring to iOS. The post title here is the same as the article title but I would still recommend changing it, even if just to "macOS App Store".

i336_ 10y ago
Small edit - I just realized "Mac App Store" could work as well, that's what I understand it's usually called.

arielm 10y ago

I think that without knowing the y-axis of that chart it's hard to judge whether it's really not worth it to even be listed. Mac apps are more niche than their mobile counterparts. Why is a discussion for a different time, but _selling_ niche products is very different than freemium or even paid mobile apps. If sales are low on a daily basis I'd say the downloads came from users who knew what they wanted and just needed a way to get it, which is what I suspect is happening. I'm not trying to defend the Mac App Store here, obviously it leaves a lot to be desired as it related to discovery. I'm not sure if we can blame Apple for that or not though. Desktop app stores never really took off with steam being the only exception. And steam isn't for apps. The only real advantage I see the MAS could have is credibility when it gets to subscriptions. Let's see how Apple will handle that.

fpgeek 10y ago
> Desktop app stores never really took off with steam being the only exception. And steam isn't for apps. Mobile app stores aren't for apps (or at least paid apps) either. If you filter out all the games, the frontends for external services and all the other free apps, how much is left? How significant is it?

beezischillin 10y ago

From a user's point of view the App Store (on every Apple platform, from tvOS to the Watch) is an incredibly bad deal, with awesome offerings. * The centralised payment really incentivises users to buy apps (myself included, I find myself thinking about buying something a lot less when only having to trust one source with my information, and that source ensures that their system works well for me). * iCloud Sync is a really big bonus for most of the work-related apps I bought and it's painfully missing when you read that devs pulled their software from the store and you cannot access it anymore. * The fact that I can comfortably download all the software I bought without keeping track of it is a bonus - if I ever have to reset a device, it's a giant bonus. And the negatives: * It stifles innovation -- content discovery is almost impossible! Within two clicks you can arrive at endless lists of shovel-ware - the top lists are almost completely unusable in my region as a way to find new and interesting apps. Same goes for categories (on stores that even have a somewhat OK system of categories). The Watch / TV stores are horrible! For some reason I always seem to run out of content to browse, even tho there are (possibly) hundreds of thousands of apps on that platform. The only half-acceptable way I found to look for new stuff is to browse Apple's curated collections (which almost always are very samey). Now I wouldn't say this is worse than Google Play, for example, I recently browsed through it and had a similar experience, however that should be enough to call attention to the issue, since the Apple app store is usually considered more sophisticated * Search: it's not very good, from the App Store to Apple Music tolerance on misspelling names or searching for approximates is bad. * You're forced to only use their system of delivery, unless you're on macOS (which's future is looking dubious on that front as well), so you're inherently forced to deal with the negatives, without having a choice of other ecosystems. I love my Apple products, I've almost completely switched to their ecosystem within the last two years, but I am really hoping to see as much work on these issues as on the pull-up music player menu on the Control Center. Just because the competition is not on another, better level, it does not mean that having to constantly Google to discover great new apps is acceptable.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

murukesh_s 10y ago

Apple should lower the fees for desktop apps. The developer license, while only 100$, is still a factor that prevents indie developers from considering the App Store. Perhaps make it free for free and open source apps. And only take a commission for paid apps. The mobile app store was different because that was the only option for developers at that time. Apple would ideally like to make it that way even on the desktops eventually, but that would suck.

erikb 10y ago

We should make a clear difference here between any App Store and a computer App store. Sure, people will not care much when it's a computer app store, since they have long experience in installing programs without it. But when it comes to smartphone/tablet app stores, not being in one of them means your program is dead.

mmjaa 10y ago

home-brew is my App Store these days. I only go to the 'official' Mac App Store out of curiosity to see new releases - and then I wait until they show up in 'brew cask'. If they don't: meh. I don't care. If they do, then I happily use home-brew to install new apps. The reason? home-brew is just such an elegant way of administering installed Apps without doing the 'download, mount, drag to ~/Applications, etc.' dance ..

amelius 10y ago

If too many devs flee the app store, then chances are Apple makes the app-store mandatory for installing new apps.

masklinn 10y ago
Not really. This is about MAS not iOS appstore. There's no way Apple can require MAS-install, everybody would up and leave the ecosystem entirely (too many useful tools can't even fit in MAS's restrictions) and MAS has never had much value-add for the constraints and cost.

eonw 10y ago

as a mac user, i always prefer to download the dmg directly. i only use the app store for OS updates, xcode and itunes updates.