6 ms·

I have a friend who eats 3000~4000 kcals with no exercise and he is as thin as a stick. I have another friend who is a complete couch potato and eats junk food

by smhost 10y ago

I have a friend who eats 3000~4000 kcals with no exercise and he is as thin as a stick. I have another friend who is a complete couch potato and eats junk food all day with no exercise, and he looks like a gym rat. I think a lot of the magical thinking surrounding weight loss is because there's no one-size-fits-all solution, so people make up patterns in their heads and believe them to be true.

matwood 10y ago
> I have a friend who eats 3000~4000 kcals Does he keep a detailed food log? I have power lifted and worked out for over a decade now. Every single skinny person who has asked for my help to gain weight has told me exactly what you said above, "I eat 3-4k day and just can't seem to get any bigger." As soon as I put them on a food log we find out that nope, they are barely crossing 2k calories and are like most people who severely under/over estimate how much they eat.
- smhost 10y ago
  It's more that we were eating the same things and I was getting bigger while he stayed thin. We were roommates for a summer, and our diet was virtually identical. Usually an omelette with guacamole and salsa in the morning with maybe a mimosa, 6~12 pack of beer throughout the day, california burrito, hors doeuvres with several shots of liquor at night, for about 3 months.
  - NikolaeVarius 10y ago
    Yeah, that's 99% an issue of almost always an issue of snacking or they're actually not eating as much as you think.
  - amag 10y ago
    While you may be eating the _same_ things, did you eat the same _amount_ of the things? In my experience it's very hard to compare the amount of food I eat with how much someone else at the table eats.
- AznHisoka 10y ago
  perhaps it feels like they've eaten 3-4k calories a day. in which case it could be their stomach/digestive system can handle only so much food a day. wouldnt overeating lead to bad health for these people?
- Noumenon72 10y ago
  My food log showed that I legitimately ate 3500 calories in a day as a 140-lb individual... but never two days in a row. The second day was always accompanied by unconsciously skipped meals or second helpings, averaging out to 2700 calories per day over time. I didn't even realize I was doing that, I just focused on my habit of finishing an entire bag of Doritos and thought I must be cheating thermodynamics.
AznHisoka 10y ago
those 2 scenarios are a big reason why people should focus more on general health vs appearance/weight loss. its likely the couch potatoe is unhealthy inside even though he looks fit on the outside. on the other side, if someone is overweight (albeit not very obese) but overall eats a healthy diet, it shouldnt be that worrisome.
dchmiel 10y ago
I don't like to think about my caloric intake (energy input) in relation to what other people's caloric intake is. It's starting from a reference point that doesn't serve me reliably and becomes very easy to say things such as, I like to eat or have a slow metabolism compared to someone else. But if you think about it, what other people can eat and not gain weight shouldn't matter to you one bit. What happens to you when you eat and how much you eat should matter. For example, it's like comparing your fuel efficiency in relation to another vehicle. (Your metabolism) Let's say that you are a small Smart car and the other vehicle is an F-150 pick up truck. Of course these two vehicles have different energy requirements to move the same distance therefore you don't put the same amount of energy (gasoline) in both vehicles otherwise eventually the Smart car will be overflowing with gasoline since isn't burning enough. So someone with a fast metabolism would be like the F-150 truck and someone with the slow metabolism would be like the Smart car. To think that the two should have the same fuel requirement seems silly whereas people always have an example of someone who can eat more and still stay slim. Maybe they are a truck internally and just need a lot more fuel than you or I but it doesn't mean we should eat similarly to them. People just need help to find what works for them and for a majority of people who don't have hormone imbalances starting with energy in = energy used personally is going to get them very far in their weight control and just generally understanding what happens to their bodies in relation to food intake. We focus too much on anything but energy intake (this food is a super food, and this is healthy and that isn't). I'm not saying they are not important but if you want to make quick health improvements to a large group of people, starting from energy input to output is more effective. I used to not be able to put on mass (hard gainer). What I found was that I wasn't eating as much as I thought and really to gain muscle mass and not just mass you then need to not only be in a caloric surplus you need to look a level deeper at your macros and increase your protein in take. If it fits your macros diet would get you close to a body that you are happy with as long as you tweak your macros to what you want to accomplish. Also, healthy foods do have merit with their micros but again if you don't have hormone issues you can eat what is untraditional considered unhealthy foods, such as McDonalds, and not put on weight or even lose weight as long as you control for caloric intake. The hard part with unhealthy foods is controlling your calories. It is really easy to eat your daily total calories in one or two meals eating unhealthy foods (McDonalds in this example) than eating vegetables and healthier proteins and carbs (lean meats and whole grains). The Supersize me guy didn't get fat because he ate McDonalds he got fat because he ate sooo many calories. Fat Head was a bit of a rebuttal showing what happens when you try to control for calories more. Athletes are known to eat a lot of calories and don't become obese but again it's about getting your energy equation to balance or off balanced in the way you'd like. (caloric surplus to gain weight and a caloric deficit to loss weight) There will be a lot of nuance in how everyone's bodies will respond and yes watching some metrics other than weight, like blood pressure and cholesterol , will be important in our health. Starting from a high level of just understand OUR personal energy needs and then working from there will give people a lot of benefit and make discussions easier. Because I hear so often from people that what I'm eating is unhealthy when in reality I'm within my caloric intake and within my macro makeup. Just because you eat a homemade cookie or a homemade cake doesn't make it healthier than my Snickers Bar (ooh I love Snickers). And it is so much easier to keep track of my calories when eating a Snickers bar than something homemade. It really is so easy to overeat on those treats especially during the holidays because you have no idea what the person used to bake those.
Peradine 10y ago
Basic thermodynamics: If inputs > outputs, there is net energy storage (as fat or protein) If inputs < outputs, there is net energy deficit (lost from fat and protein) Inputs = food and drink consumed Outputs = Basal metabolic rate (BMR) + energy used for activity + energy lost in urine and faeces Faeces caloric content varies between 50-350 kcal / day, urine 91–117 kcal / day [1] Basal metabolic rate is primarily decided by fat-free mass, mass, and age, 26% of BMR is not defined by these parameters. Mean BMR is 1500 kcal/day, and 26% of this represents a variability of 1305-1695 kcal per day.[2] (350-50) + (117-91) + (1695-1305) = 716 kcal Therefore two people of identical age, fat-free mass and mass who consume identical caloric intake and perform identical exercise will have, at most, a variance of 716 kcal / day in their energy expenditure from the variance in urinary and faecal caloric loss and BMR [1]: Rose C, Parker A, Jefferson B, Cartmell E. The Characterization of Feces and Urine: A Review of the Literature to Inform Advanced Treatment Technology. Critical Reviews in Environmental Science and Technology. 2015;45(17):1827-1879. doi:10.1080/10643389.2014.1000761. Section 3.2.5 and Section 3.6.4 [2] Factors influencing variation in basal metabolic rate include fat-free mass, fat mass, age, and circulating thyroxine but not sex, circulating leptin, or triiodothyronine. Johnstone AM, Murison SD, Duncan JS, Rance KA, Speakman JR. Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Nov;82(5):941-8.
- criddell 10y ago
  > two people of identical age, fat-free mass and mass who consume identical caloric intake and perform identical exercise His friends may be the same age, but have wildly different amounts of fat and muscle despite similar exercise regimens. I think that's what his point was, not that thermodynamics don't apply.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  Neat. But what if your body is more prone to converting calories into fat than muscle, and/or breaking down muscle tissue when in starvation mode rather than fat?
- lukeschlather 10y ago
  Assuming that 9kcal of fat = 1g, that's about 80g of extra fat stored/lost per day. Over the course of the year, that's 3 kg, or about 6.5 pounds. That kind of variance is enough to mean that if we trust the study, you could raise two different twenty-year-olds and one will die of starvation and the other will be clinically obese despite the same routine and diet.
kmm 10y ago
Unless your friends suffers from extreme malabsorption (which would manifest in serious and constant digestive distress), that is just obviously wrong. If the energy is not leaving his body, it has to be either stored or burned up. And you can't burn 4000 kcals on a small frame, he'd be hot to the touch. People taking DNP [0] to lose weight boost their metabolism by way less than that, and that already leads to serious side effects 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dinitrophenol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dinitrophenol
maxxxxx 10y ago
How old are the guys? I used to not be able to put on weight until I was 35. Then this changed quickly. I am still keeping my weight but I have to be careful.
sambeau 10y ago
Do they fidget? Under lab conditions people who seem to do no exercise but consume lots of calories without putting on weight are found to never actually keep still—they fidget and their legs vibrate. Obese people usually display the opposite: they sit very still. I often wonder how much obesity is a result of telling young children to keep still and stop fidgeting.

by smhost 10y ago

matwood 10y ago

> I have a friend who eats 3000~4000 kcals Does he keep a detailed food log? I have power lifted and worked out for over a decade now. Every single skinny person who has asked for my help to gain weight has told me exactly what you said above, "I eat 3-4k day and just can't seem to get any bigger." As soon as I put them on a food log we find out that nope, they are barely crossing 2k calories and are like most people who severely under/over estimate how much they eat.

smhost 10y ago
It's more that we were eating the same things and I was getting bigger while he stayed thin. We were roommates for a summer, and our diet was virtually identical. Usually an omelette with guacamole and salsa in the morning with maybe a mimosa, 6~12 pack of beer throughout the day, california burrito, hors doeuvres with several shots of liquor at night, for about 3 months.
- NikolaeVarius 10y ago
  Yeah, that's 99% an issue of almost always an issue of snacking or they're actually not eating as much as you think.
- amag 10y ago
  While you may be eating the _same_ things, did you eat the same _amount_ of the things? In my experience it's very hard to compare the amount of food I eat with how much someone else at the table eats.
AznHisoka 10y ago
perhaps it feels like they've eaten 3-4k calories a day. in which case it could be their stomach/digestive system can handle only so much food a day. wouldnt overeating lead to bad health for these people?
Noumenon72 10y ago
My food log showed that I legitimately ate 3500 calories in a day as a 140-lb individual... but never two days in a row. The second day was always accompanied by unconsciously skipped meals or second helpings, averaging out to 2700 calories per day over time. I didn't even realize I was doing that, I just focused on my habit of finishing an entire bag of Doritos and thought I must be cheating thermodynamics.

AznHisoka 10y ago

those 2 scenarios are a big reason why people should focus more on general health vs appearance/weight loss. its likely the couch potatoe is unhealthy inside even though he looks fit on the outside. on the other side, if someone is overweight (albeit not very obese) but overall eats a healthy diet, it shouldnt be that worrisome.

dchmiel 10y ago

I don't like to think about my caloric intake (energy input) in relation to what other people's caloric intake is. It's starting from a reference point that doesn't serve me reliably and becomes very easy to say things such as, I like to eat or have a slow metabolism compared to someone else. But if you think about it, what other people can eat and not gain weight shouldn't matter to you one bit. What happens to you when you eat and how much you eat should matter. For example, it's like comparing your fuel efficiency in relation to another vehicle. (Your metabolism) Let's say that you are a small Smart car and the other vehicle is an F-150 pick up truck. Of course these two vehicles have different energy requirements to move the same distance therefore you don't put the same amount of energy (gasoline) in both vehicles otherwise eventually the Smart car will be overflowing with gasoline since isn't burning enough. So someone with a fast metabolism would be like the F-150 truck and someone with the slow metabolism would be like the Smart car. To think that the two should have the same fuel requirement seems silly whereas people always have an example of someone who can eat more and still stay slim. Maybe they are a truck internally and just need a lot more fuel than you or I but it doesn't mean we should eat similarly to them. People just need help to find what works for them and for a majority of people who don't have hormone imbalances starting with energy in = energy used personally is going to get them very far in their weight control and just generally understanding what happens to their bodies in relation to food intake. We focus too much on anything but energy intake (this food is a super food, and this is healthy and that isn't). I'm not saying they are not important but if you want to make quick health improvements to a large group of people, starting from energy input to output is more effective. I used to not be able to put on mass (hard gainer). What I found was that I wasn't eating as much as I thought and really to gain muscle mass and not just mass you then need to not only be in a caloric surplus you need to look a level deeper at your macros and increase your protein in take. If it fits your macros diet would get you close to a body that you are happy with as long as you tweak your macros to what you want to accomplish. Also, healthy foods do have merit with their micros but again if you don't have hormone issues you can eat what is untraditional considered unhealthy foods, such as McDonalds, and not put on weight or even lose weight as long as you control for caloric intake. The hard part with unhealthy foods is controlling your calories. It is really easy to eat your daily total calories in one or two meals eating unhealthy foods (McDonalds in this example) than eating vegetables and healthier proteins and carbs (lean meats and whole grains). The Supersize me guy didn't get fat because he ate McDonalds he got fat because he ate sooo many calories. Fat Head was a bit of a rebuttal showing what happens when you try to control for calories more. Athletes are known to eat a lot of calories and don't become obese but again it's about getting your energy equation to balance or off balanced in the way you'd like. (caloric surplus to gain weight and a caloric deficit to loss weight) There will be a lot of nuance in how everyone's bodies will respond and yes watching some metrics other than weight, like blood pressure and cholesterol , will be important in our health. Starting from a high level of just understand OUR personal energy needs and then working from there will give people a lot of benefit and make discussions easier. Because I hear so often from people that what I'm eating is unhealthy when in reality I'm within my caloric intake and within my macro makeup. Just because you eat a homemade cookie or a homemade cake doesn't make it healthier than my Snickers Bar (ooh I love Snickers). And it is so much easier to keep track of my calories when eating a Snickers bar than something homemade. It really is so easy to overeat on those treats especially during the holidays because you have no idea what the person used to bake those.

Peradine 10y ago

Basic thermodynamics: If inputs > outputs, there is net energy storage (as fat or protein) If inputs < outputs, there is net energy deficit (lost from fat and protein) Inputs = food and drink consumed Outputs = Basal metabolic rate (BMR) + energy used for activity + energy lost in urine and faeces Faeces caloric content varies between 50-350 kcal / day, urine 91–117 kcal / day [1] Basal metabolic rate is primarily decided by fat-free mass, mass, and age, 26% of BMR is not defined by these parameters. Mean BMR is 1500 kcal/day, and 26% of this represents a variability of 1305-1695 kcal per day.[2] (350-50) + (117-91) + (1695-1305) = 716 kcal Therefore two people of identical age, fat-free mass and mass who consume identical caloric intake and perform identical exercise will have, at most, a variance of 716 kcal / day in their energy expenditure from the variance in urinary and faecal caloric loss and BMR [1]: Rose C, Parker A, Jefferson B, Cartmell E. The Characterization of Feces and Urine: A Review of the Literature to Inform Advanced Treatment Technology. Critical Reviews in Environmental Science and Technology. 2015;45(17):1827-1879. doi:10.1080/10643389.2014.1000761. Section 3.2.5 and Section 3.6.4 [2] Factors influencing variation in basal metabolic rate include fat-free mass, fat mass, age, and circulating thyroxine but not sex, circulating leptin, or triiodothyronine. Johnstone AM, Murison SD, Duncan JS, Rance KA, Speakman JR. Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Nov;82(5):941-8.

criddell 10y ago
> two people of identical age, fat-free mass and mass who consume identical caloric intake and perform identical exercise His friends may be the same age, but have wildly different amounts of fat and muscle despite similar exercise regimens. I think that's what his point was, not that thermodynamics don't apply.
pavel_lishin 10y ago
Neat. But what if your body is more prone to converting calories into fat than muscle, and/or breaking down muscle tissue when in starvation mode rather than fat?
lukeschlather 10y ago
Assuming that 9kcal of fat = 1g, that's about 80g of extra fat stored/lost per day. Over the course of the year, that's 3 kg, or about 6.5 pounds. That kind of variance is enough to mean that if we trust the study, you could raise two different twenty-year-olds and one will die of starvation and the other will be clinically obese despite the same routine and diet.

kmm 10y ago

Unless your friends suffers from extreme malabsorption (which would manifest in serious and constant digestive distress), that is just obviously wrong. If the energy is not leaving his body, it has to be either stored or burned up. And you can't burn 4000 kcals on a small frame, he'd be hot to the touch. People taking DNP [0] to lose weight boost their metabolism by way less than that, and that already leads to serious side effects 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dinitrophenol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dinitrophenol

maxxxxx 10y ago

How old are the guys? I used to not be able to put on weight until I was 35. Then this changed quickly. I am still keeping my weight but I have to be careful.

sambeau 10y ago

Do they fidget? Under lab conditions people who seem to do no exercise but consume lots of calories without putting on weight are found to never actually keep still—they fidget and their legs vibrate. Obese people usually display the opposite: they sit very still. I often wonder how much obesity is a result of telling young children to keep still and stop fidgeting.