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This is not a scalable model of software funding. People may send you money today, because its on their minds, but bills will have to be paid again next month,

This is not a scalable model of software funding. People may send you money today, because its on their minds, but bills will have to be paid again next month, and next year. Please get yourself, a Patreon account, or something similar. Meanwhile, I'm sure MathWorks is looking for people with exactly your domain knowledge[0]. https://www.mathworks.com/company/jobs/opportunities/?s_tid=hp_ff_a_careers https://www.mathworks.com/company/jobs/opportunities/?s_tid=...

pinewurst 10y ago
Working there, though, might preclude further work on Octave.
- StavrosK 10y ago
  I'm guessing that when you're the BDFL of Octave you can negotiate a compromise.
  - jlarocco 10y ago
    No way. I don't know what the relationship between MathWorks and Octave is, but probably the last thing MathWorks wants to do is give the creator their biggest competitor access to their trade secrets and proprietary information.
    - gech 10y ago
      Maybe as humans we should be thinking bigger than things like secrets
      - arjie 10y ago
        Well, maybe if you convince the MathWorks guys of that they'll hire this dude, but otherwise he's not going to get to do both things.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
  - jordigh 10y ago
    The Mathworks is not our friend. They view Octave with disdain, and our entire purpose for working on Octave is to make sure people don't have to use Matlab. I think jwe would be miserable working at TMW. It would be the ultimate insult to his life's work.
    - fsloth 10y ago
      Why such acidity towards Mathworks? I've use Matlab decades ago with someone elses licensing so I don't really know the details. "our entire purpose for working on Octave is to make sure people don't have to use Matlab." That's a really negative way to put it. Isn't Scilab a viable Matlab alternative as well. Are you hoping to block people from using that as well? What about Intel's fortan compiler... The point is, it's much more approachable to describe things in positive terms rather than negative when all you are essentially doing is offering a product in a not-ruled-by-monopoly market.
      - Nullabillity 10y ago
        Perhaps it would be better to put it as "is to make sure people who are already stuck with Matlab scripts don't have to deal with Mathworks". Scilab is already open source, and GCC has a Fortran backend, so I don't see how those are relevant
      - jordigh 10y ago
        The reason for the acidity is quite simple: we believe non-free software like Matlab to be unethical. You should not be restricted by a license manager, there should not be any restrictions on who you can share your software with (Matlab's license says you can only share Matlab's own source code with other Matlab users), you should have complete access to the source code (Matlab hides a lot of juicy secrets in its hidden source code, such as the exact algorithm of its backslash operator, or virtually everything interesting in its image processing package). You deserve better than this. You deserve free software. This is why Octave is part of GNU, and why it's GPLed. As for Scilab, they don't have quite the same aim as Octave. They don't aim to implement the same language so you can take your Matlab scripts away from Matlab, without change. They have a compatibility layer that does it partly, but there is still a need for implementing the same language. Imagine if the only way to run Javascript or Python was to sign away your rights to some company. Freemat is a bit more comparable in aim to Octave, but it has a smaller contributor pool.
jlarocco 10y ago
I agree this type of plea isn't sustainable, but going to work for MathWorks is just a ridiculous suggestion. I can't believe you even seriously suggested it. There's such a giant conflict of interest you might as well suggest RMS go work for one of the remaining legacy UNIX vendors.
- mhermher 10y ago
  Obviously he/she would have to stop contributing to Octave.
- lazarus101 10y ago
  I'm sure Apple or Microsoft are looking for people with exactly his domain knowledge. Just imagine RMS as the Keynote Speaker for the next WWDC
  - tehlike 10y ago
    Funny you should say that, as a joke i put a flyer on rms' door one day that read: proudly funded by apple. He was not amused :)
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
tomphoolery 10y ago
Patreon is awesome, but it's not enough to pay the bills full-time for most people. That said...anyone who owns an open-source project, is the primary contributor of said project and sacrifices a significant amount of possible revenue at their job to contribute to the project should have a Patreon page where anyone who feels like they want to contribute can do so. It may not be your primary source of income, but getting any income from your open-source work is a good motivator to keep working hard at making stellar software.
- astrodust 10y ago
  It's a component of your income stream, not a complete solution. If you're doing open-source software as a living it's essential you have: 1. Books: You should at the very least write the canonical book on using a package, tool or application you've written. Amazon residuals might not be high, but they're non-zero. The effort involved in writing a book is considerable but they can pay dividends for a long time. It's also something you can chip away at over time. 2. Patreon: You need some way of measuring community enthusiasm for your project and what better way than to see how much they're willing to pay for it. Reward tiers can also help by allowing more generous patrons to help with advice, like feature requests, early code review and so on. This builds engagement. 3. Support Contracts: These might be super obnoxious, customers can be very difficult, but if you're in it to win it you absolutely need to cover this off. At the very least offer incident-level consulting to get people out of a jam. Figure out what the hassle's worth and price accordingly. $200/hr? $500/hr? 4. Corporate Sponsorship: I like it when companies step up and help fund open-source software directly, like how Redis has been supported by various companies along its lifepan (https://redis.io/topics/sponsors https://redis.io/topics/sponsors). If you find a good partner it's not "selling out", it's validation that your project is meaningful. They'll respect your decisions and not interfere. 5. Talks: Get out there and talk about your project. At the very least make videos, or get people to make them for you, that introduce how your tools work, how they can be used, and where you're going with the project. Being a speaker at an event might be daunting for some, but it's a great way to make connections and find opportunities. Too many developers want to focus on nothing but the code. That's not how the world works.
  - 10y ago
bravura 10y ago
Would you donate a recurring amount monthly to open-source software development? Imagine a site that auto-bills your credit card every month. You can specify projects you want to support, or just support a portfolio of projects that someone else has devised. If so, please fill out this quick survey. I'm curious if this idea has legs: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfXIqUqsfDoUplWeWYsxdmW04G2gQ1tO5o179fu5Eom75tohg/viewform https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfXIqUqsfDoUplWeWYs...
- dflock 10y ago
  You mean like this: https://salt.bountysource.com/ https://salt.bountysource.com/ Obviously, there are also lots of open source people earning income from Patreon and the traditional bountysource too - but salt is the Bountysource clone of Patreon, specifically for OSS.
  - nathancahill 10y ago
    The idea is a good one. But see how none of the projects break $3k/month? And how drastically it drops down to $500? There just isn't that much money moving in that model. Period. The Open Collective project mentioned in your sibling looks even nicer, but tops out at $5k/year.
    - dflock 10y ago
      It's not the model, it's the audience size. These guys are making $24k per month on Patreon, for example: https://www.patreon.com/Kurzgesagt https://www.patreon.com/Kurzgesagt - I would guess it's just a function of their audience size and the amount of work they put into fundraising - actually asking people to contribute. ElementaryOS have actually been working at this a little bit (unlike almost all other open source projects) - and they've built up to $1k a month on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/elementary https://www.patreon.com/elementary - plus ~$200 a month on salt/bountysource, plus direct donations, etc...
- jonas21 10y ago
  Check out Open Collective https://opencollective.com https://opencollective.com. They use the sort of model that you're describing.
joshlemer 10y ago
Although Patreon is nice, it seems to be more focused on artists and the like. A similar project focused on Open Source Software is Bounty Source Salt (https://salt.bountysource.com/ https://salt.bountysource.com/)
- yazaddaruvala 10y ago
  While I do agree, an unrelated philosophy question: Is a piece of software not art? Are its creator/creators not artists, expressing their vision?
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > Is a piece of software not art? Are its creator/creators not artists, expressing their vision? Indeed this can happen (though not always - I, for example would not describe, say, some business applications as "art"). But nevertheless the markets for art and software are IMHO rather different, so I would be cautious when lumping these two markets together.
upofadown 10y ago
Does it have to be scalable or ongoing for a situation like this one? I kicked in $100 simply to acknowledge past work. I don't care if the person involved takes the money, spends it on a nice vacation and never touches Octave again.

pinewurst 10y ago

Working there, though, might preclude further work on Octave.

StavrosK 10y ago
I'm guessing that when you're the BDFL of Octave you can negotiate a compromise.
- jlarocco 10y ago
  No way. I don't know what the relationship between MathWorks and Octave is, but probably the last thing MathWorks wants to do is give the creator their biggest competitor access to their trade secrets and proprietary information.
  - gech 10y ago
    Maybe as humans we should be thinking bigger than things like secrets
    - arjie 10y ago
      Well, maybe if you convince the MathWorks guys of that they'll hire this dude, but otherwise he's not going to get to do both things.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- jordigh 10y ago
  The Mathworks is not our friend. They view Octave with disdain, and our entire purpose for working on Octave is to make sure people don't have to use Matlab. I think jwe would be miserable working at TMW. It would be the ultimate insult to his life's work.
  - fsloth 10y ago
    Why such acidity towards Mathworks? I've use Matlab decades ago with someone elses licensing so I don't really know the details. "our entire purpose for working on Octave is to make sure people don't have to use Matlab." That's a really negative way to put it. Isn't Scilab a viable Matlab alternative as well. Are you hoping to block people from using that as well? What about Intel's fortan compiler... The point is, it's much more approachable to describe things in positive terms rather than negative when all you are essentially doing is offering a product in a not-ruled-by-monopoly market.
    - Nullabillity 10y ago
      Perhaps it would be better to put it as "is to make sure people who are already stuck with Matlab scripts don't have to deal with Mathworks". Scilab is already open source, and GCC has a Fortran backend, so I don't see how those are relevant
    - jordigh 10y ago
      The reason for the acidity is quite simple: we believe non-free software like Matlab to be unethical. You should not be restricted by a license manager, there should not be any restrictions on who you can share your software with (Matlab's license says you can only share Matlab's own source code with other Matlab users), you should have complete access to the source code (Matlab hides a lot of juicy secrets in its hidden source code, such as the exact algorithm of its backslash operator, or virtually everything interesting in its image processing package). You deserve better than this. You deserve free software. This is why Octave is part of GNU, and why it's GPLed. As for Scilab, they don't have quite the same aim as Octave. They don't aim to implement the same language so you can take your Matlab scripts away from Matlab, without change. They have a compatibility layer that does it partly, but there is still a need for implementing the same language. Imagine if the only way to run Javascript or Python was to sign away your rights to some company. Freemat is a bit more comparable in aim to Octave, but it has a smaller contributor pool.

jlarocco 10y ago

I agree this type of plea isn't sustainable, but going to work for MathWorks is just a ridiculous suggestion. I can't believe you even seriously suggested it. There's such a giant conflict of interest you might as well suggest RMS go work for one of the remaining legacy UNIX vendors.

mhermher 10y ago
Obviously he/she would have to stop contributing to Octave.
lazarus101 10y ago
I'm sure Apple or Microsoft are looking for people with exactly his domain knowledge. Just imagine RMS as the Keynote Speaker for the next WWDC
- tehlike 10y ago
  Funny you should say that, as a joke i put a flyer on rms' door one day that read: proudly funded by apple. He was not amused :)
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

tomphoolery 10y ago

Patreon is awesome, but it's not enough to pay the bills full-time for most people. That said...anyone who owns an open-source project, is the primary contributor of said project and sacrifices a significant amount of possible revenue at their job to contribute to the project should have a Patreon page where anyone who feels like they want to contribute can do so. It may not be your primary source of income, but getting any income from your open-source work is a good motivator to keep working hard at making stellar software.

astrodust 10y ago
It's a component of your income stream, not a complete solution. If you're doing open-source software as a living it's essential you have: 1. Books: You should at the very least write the canonical book on using a package, tool or application you've written. Amazon residuals might not be high, but they're non-zero. The effort involved in writing a book is considerable but they can pay dividends for a long time. It's also something you can chip away at over time. 2. Patreon: You need some way of measuring community enthusiasm for your project and what better way than to see how much they're willing to pay for it. Reward tiers can also help by allowing more generous patrons to help with advice, like feature requests, early code review and so on. This builds engagement. 3. Support Contracts: These might be super obnoxious, customers can be very difficult, but if you're in it to win it you absolutely need to cover this off. At the very least offer incident-level consulting to get people out of a jam. Figure out what the hassle's worth and price accordingly. $200/hr? $500/hr? 4. Corporate Sponsorship: I like it when companies step up and help fund open-source software directly, like how Redis has been supported by various companies along its lifepan (https://redis.io/topics/sponsors https://redis.io/topics/sponsors). If you find a good partner it's not "selling out", it's validation that your project is meaningful. They'll respect your decisions and not interfere. 5. Talks: Get out there and talk about your project. At the very least make videos, or get people to make them for you, that introduce how your tools work, how they can be used, and where you're going with the project. Being a speaker at an event might be daunting for some, but it's a great way to make connections and find opportunities. Too many developers want to focus on nothing but the code. That's not how the world works.
- 10y ago

bravura 10y ago

Would you donate a recurring amount monthly to open-source software development? Imagine a site that auto-bills your credit card every month. You can specify projects you want to support, or just support a portfolio of projects that someone else has devised. If so, please fill out this quick survey. I'm curious if this idea has legs: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfXIqUqsfDoUplWeWYsxdmW04G2gQ1tO5o179fu5Eom75tohg/viewform https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfXIqUqsfDoUplWeWYs...

dflock 10y ago
You mean like this: https://salt.bountysource.com/ https://salt.bountysource.com/ Obviously, there are also lots of open source people earning income from Patreon and the traditional bountysource too - but salt is the Bountysource clone of Patreon, specifically for OSS.
- nathancahill 10y ago
  The idea is a good one. But see how none of the projects break $3k/month? And how drastically it drops down to $500? There just isn't that much money moving in that model. Period. The Open Collective project mentioned in your sibling looks even nicer, but tops out at $5k/year.
  - dflock 10y ago
    It's not the model, it's the audience size. These guys are making $24k per month on Patreon, for example: https://www.patreon.com/Kurzgesagt https://www.patreon.com/Kurzgesagt - I would guess it's just a function of their audience size and the amount of work they put into fundraising - actually asking people to contribute. ElementaryOS have actually been working at this a little bit (unlike almost all other open source projects) - and they've built up to $1k a month on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/elementary https://www.patreon.com/elementary - plus ~$200 a month on salt/bountysource, plus direct donations, etc...
jonas21 10y ago
Check out Open Collective https://opencollective.com https://opencollective.com. They use the sort of model that you're describing.

joshlemer 10y ago

Although Patreon is nice, it seems to be more focused on artists and the like. A similar project focused on Open Source Software is Bounty Source Salt (https://salt.bountysource.com/ https://salt.bountysource.com/)

yazaddaruvala 10y ago
While I do agree, an unrelated philosophy question: Is a piece of software not art? Are its creator/creators not artists, expressing their vision?
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > Is a piece of software not art? Are its creator/creators not artists, expressing their vision? Indeed this can happen (though not always - I, for example would not describe, say, some business applications as "art"). But nevertheless the markets for art and software are IMHO rather different, so I would be cautious when lumping these two markets together.

upofadown 10y ago

Does it have to be scalable or ongoing for a situation like this one? I kicked in $100 simply to acknowledge past work. I don't care if the person involved takes the money, spends it on a nice vacation and never touches Octave again.