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> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, an

by csallen 10y ago

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-elected government in favor of the opposition, because their citizens didn't want BP to have control of their oil. We bribed politicians, street thugs, and demonstrators; incited deadly riots; bombed houses; etc. BP actually contributed funds to help out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état Or you've probably never heard of Iran Flight 655, where in 1988 a reckless US cruiser drifted into Iranian waters and shot down an Iranian commercial airplane in Iranian airspace. 290 fatalities, including women and children. 8th deadliest disaster in aviation history, nary a peep in the US media: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655. But they are the reckless terrorists to watch out for. And it gets worse, much much worse. Look into our activities in South America, especially Guatemala. Our terrorist activities in Cuba. Our "defense" of Vietnam. Our thinly-justified and roundly-condemned embargoes. (Quite common to see UN votes that are 190-1, everyone vs the US. Or the US and Israel.) We've killed hundreds of thousands, millions of people in many cases. Often explicitly for US business interests. Honestly, I somewhat doubt a thread like this could make it to the top of HN at a time when most Americans aren't sleeping. Americans don't want to read this stuff.

3131s 10y ago
> Our "defense" of Vietnam. And most people only think of Vietnam itself regarding that conflict, yet Cambodia and Laos were absolutely decimated too. The US dropped more tons of bombs on Laos and Cambodia individually than the combined amount dropped by the allied forces in WWII. There are still 80 million unexploded bombs in the Laos countryside. Landmines sold by the US and China to the Lon Nol government and the Khmer Rouge respectively were up until recently killing 1000+ Cambodians a year. If you've seen these places and met the people there, it's hard to imagine.
- jahnu 10y ago
  What's even sadder is with a few billion much of that uxo could be cleaned up but they struggle for basic funding to clear some each year. In my mind that displays there is little remorse for past actions.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    Here' an example of landmine clearance in Cambodia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWfNZoXr6rQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWfNZoXr6rQ (From CmdrFred's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12187512#12190918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12187512#12190918)
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      Holy hell. Filming that takes guts. Doing the disarming is the next level of courage. I just wonder how much deaths did it cost them to get the knowledge and proficiency in clearing those mines.
      - brianwawok 10y ago
        I suspect by hand land-mine disarming has a very strong survivor bias... I.e. you don't make it to week 2 of your job if you are clumsy
        ouid 10y ago
        There are some situations when the mine could be in either of 2 locations, though.
    - saganus 10y ago
      WOW.... that's some brass courage right there. And to think there are so many of them buried around. It's just heart-breaking.
- wallace_f 10y ago
  That's awful. I thought I knew of a lot of the "unreported war crimes" we've done, but I did not know of this.
cyberferret 10y ago
I was living in South East Asia when the USS Vincennes incident took place, and it was widely reported there. But I do remember when I returned to Australia, hardly anybody knew about what had happened. That was my first introduction to 'curated news' by various countries. Of course, a few years later when the family of the Captain of the Vincennes was targeted in a failed car bomb attack, we heard a bit about this 'terrorist' activity. I thought it interesting that when Western forces eradicate an entire family of a suspected 'terrorist' via anonymous drone strikes, it is considered merely collateral damage, a byproduct of a dutiful and patriotic thing to do, but when Iranian operatives attempt to retaliate against someone who murdered 290 of its citizens in their own airspace, it is an underhanded terrorist activity.
- linuxkerneldev 10y ago
  > the USS Vincennes incident took place Summary for those who like me didn't know about the incident. Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. " Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai. On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes under the command of William C. Rogers III. The incident took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from Vincennes. All 290 people on board died ... As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran but agreed to pay on an ex gratia basis US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims. ... Commander David Carlson, commanding officer of USS Sides, the warship stationed nearest to Vincennes at the time of the incident, is reported to have said that the destruction of the aircraft "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago". ... In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
starik36 10y ago
I am not sure what your point is in bringing Iran, maybe its to blame the US for the current situation there. Keep in mind that 1953 was over 60 years ago. To keep on blaming US for acts committed that long ago and apply to today...well, it's ridiculous.
- chinathrow 10y ago
  I strongly disagree: it's not ridiculous at all when it comes to war crimes or crimes against humanity. Also, Iran was one example, the list of U.S. aggressions against sovereign nations without U.N. mandate goes on up to very recent times (Syria).
  - bayesian_horse 10y ago
    The system of getting UN mandates has become useless because Russia is both on the security council and an offender of the rules it was supposed to defend. By all rights, there should be a UN mandate to fight IS in Syria. There should have been a UN mandate to fight the Assad regime, for that matter. Not intervening did not lead to less destabilization, just to more war crimes by the original regime.
    - jacobush 10y ago
      Make that Russia and the US. Still, it's better that they divide at least some spoils at the table in the UN. The alternative could be on the battlefield :-/
      - bayesian_horse 10y ago
        The US isn't getting any "spoils" from the wars it fought. At best they are keeping trade lines open. In no sense did they profit from their actions. Russia, maybe. The invasion of Crimea may have been profitable, if it weren't for the sanctions. Which is one of the best arguments in favor of these sanctions.
        10y ago
wallace_f 10y ago
> Honestly, I somewhat doubt a thread like this could make it to the top of HN at a time when most Americans aren't sleeping. Americans don't want to read this stuff. Americans are finally waking up and realizing we need to do something to protect justice, or we'll be next. First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out... We're well past the time to speak out. The time to speak out is now. It's not against Trump. It's not against Clinton. Nor Obama. It's against all of them. It's against a broken system.
jameslk 10y ago
> Honestly, I somewhat doubt a thread like this could make it to the top of HN at a time when most Americans aren't sleeping. Americans don't want to read this stuff. I completely agree with you, and I'm an American. To claim that Americans are the only ones that need to wake up is a bit disingenuous though. Perhaps we need a wakeup call from the outside. The nations that have allied with the US, or benefit from friendly relations with the US are also complicit in what the US is doing. Where's the sanctions on the US? There aren't as many because sadly others benefit from the actions of the US by simply turning a blind eye.
- 3131s 10y ago
  I'm American too (and I posted this) and I fear that you two are correct. I live on the other side of the world though, hence the posting hours. I was totally surprised to see this at #1 for a bit, though I am just happy that it's getting discussed. No candidate for president will ever get my vote unless they talk seriously about scaling back the American military-industrial complex.
  - jasonkostempski 10y ago
    Do you think the HN crowd is the type to bury their heads in the sand? I don't get that impression. I'm on here all hours of the day and I see things like this hit the front page pretty regularly. They don't stay up long, I think, because they're a bit outside the targeted topics for this site.
    - pjc50 10y ago
      You can't downvote things off the front page, but people can and do abuse the flag button for this. There's also an algorithmic penalty for "too controversial" topics with too many comments, I believe.
      - grzm 10y ago
        people can and do abuse the flag button for this The flag link and the upvote button are both legitimate means for HN members to express whether they feel a submission is appropriate for HN.
maxerickson 10y ago
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/world/downing-flight-655-us-downs-iran-airliner-mistaken-for-f-14-290-reported-dead.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/world/downing-flight-655-u... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/flight801/stories/july88crash.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/flight80... The "Page A01" on the WaPo article is the front page. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuWOCLEuXu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuWOCLEuXu4 Which is not to say that such events are prominent in the memory of Americans, but it's just not true that they don't get put on the news. 2 of the biggest papers in the country (and I'm sure many others) and major TV news operations covered the event.
- csallen 10y ago
  You are correct, they are reported, I was overly hyperbolic to say "nary a peep". They are just drastically underreported compared to attacks no the US and its allies.
  - dhimes 10y ago
    Very hyperbolic. There was an entire investigation. It was scandalous.
pizza 10y ago
And then there is the shitshow of the Lockerbie bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103_conspiracy_theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103_conspiracy_t...
JackFr 10y ago
>Or you've probably never heard of Iran Flight 655, where in 1988 a reckless US cruiser drifted into Iranian waters and shot down an Iranian commercial airplane in Iranian airspace. 290 fatalities, including women and children. 8th deadliest disaster in aviation history, nary a peep in the US media: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655. But they are the reckless terrorists to watch out for. 'Nary a peep in the US media'? Front page in the New York Times and Washington Post? http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/world/downing-flight-655-us-downs-iran-airliner-mistaken-for-f-14-290-reported-dead.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/world/downing-flight-655-u... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/flight801/stories/july88crash.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/flight80... I'm not sure what a would constitute 'a peep' for you.
- csallen 10y ago
  Compare it to the Soviets shooting down Korean Air Lines Flight 007 in 1983. Chomsky writes, "For the month of September 1983 alone, the New York Times index—the very densely printed index of articles that have appeared in the Times—has seven full pages devoted to this story. That's the index, for one month alone. The liberal Boston Globe on the first day of coverage had its first ten full pages devoted to that story and nothing else." That's what a peep looks like. What do you think would happen if Iran were to shoot down an American commercial flight in US waters/airspace with hundreds of families on board?
  - akamaka 10y ago
    The phrase "nary a peep" means "never one single small sound". The context of this discussion is about entirely unreported drone strikes, not the number of pages devoted to a front page incident. Your points are fair, but there's no need to start an argument over misreading what the parent comment what trying to say.
    - mistermann 10y ago
      This seems a bit disingenuous to me, without your parent's comment I for one would have had a misleading perception of the reality (assuming that comment is true, is it not?).
johnflan 10y ago
I think much of this 'freedom' has come from The USA's overly elevated global position coming out of WW2. The USA prospered economically, scientifically and socially all while Western Europe was on its knees. The EU has been, in my eyes at least an attempt at rebalancing of Western Power.
- rad_gruchalski 10y ago
  How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworl...
wtbob 10y ago
> In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-elected government in favor of the opposition No, we didn't: the rightful government (the Shah's) overthrew an attempted dictator. Mossadegh lived out the rest of his life in peace, and died in bed. > Or you've probably never heard of Iran Flight 655, where in 1988 a reckless US cruiser drifted into Iranian waters and shot down an Iranian commercial airplane in Iranian airspace. No, it wasn't reckless: the electronic data gave Vincennes good reason to believe that it was being attacked by an Iranian fighter. > Our "defense" of Vietnam. The 2 million South Vietnamese who fled their country after North Vietnam conquered sure seemed to have appreciated our defence: while we were there, they didn't take to the sea in boats, fleeing for their lives.
- csallen 10y ago
  > No, we didn't: the rightful government (the Shah's) overthrew an attempted dictator. Mossadegh lived out the rest of his life in peace, and died in bed. Only if you define "rightful" as the government that the UK and US decided was favorable to them, and not the one supported consistently by the Iranian people via elections. I don't see how you can argue this point — both the US and UK have outright admitted to their actions (fomenting and supporting the coup) and to their reasons for doing so (oil). And Mossadegh was sentenced to execution, but his life was personally spared by the Shah. > No, it wasn't reckless: the electronic data gave Vincennes good reason to believe that it was being attacked by an Iranian fighter. "Three years after the incident, Admiral William J. Crowe admitted on American television show Nightline that Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles." Is this not reckless? "Commander David Carlson, commanding officer of USS Sides, the warship stationed nearest to Vincennes at the time of the incident, is reported to have said that the destruction of the aircraft 'marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago'." Reckless according to his own colleague. "Throughout its final flight, IR655 was in radio contact with various air traffic control services using standard civil aviation frequencies, and had spoken in English to Bandar Abbas Approach Control seconds before Vincennes launched its missiles. According to the U.S. Navy investigation Vincennes at that time had no equipment suitable for monitoring civil aviation frequencies, other than the International Air Distress frequency." Obviously the Vincennes didn't commit a brazen attack for no reason at all. They had some reason to believe they might be attacked. But sailing into another country's waters and airspace with no ability to differentiate between fighter and commercial jet is reckless, and furthermore it was done by a captain with a history of reckless behavior. > The 2 million South Vietnamese who fled their country after North Vietnam conquered sure seemed to have appreciated our defense: while we were there, they didn't take to the sea in boats, fleeing for their lives. They were forced to fight a war they didn't support for decades, under a brutal and unpopular autocratic leader, Diem. He forced his pro-Christian and anti-Communist sentiments on his people and oppressed those who disagreed until he was eventually assassinated. Meanwhile the US devastated the country and drove the North into a fight-or-flight state of desperation. Of course the people of the South didn't want to stick around to face their vengeance.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
refurb 10y ago
You're making the same mistake as the people you're chastizing. You're filtering this historical events through your own filter to create a good guy and bad guy. It's more complicated then that. I encourage you to dive into the details of Mossadegh's overthrow. Did the US and British encourage the coup? Sure. Was there significant opposition to his rule among Iranians? Definitely. I argue he would have been disposed regardless of US or British involvement.
- exodust 10y ago
  I was going to say the same thing as your first point. Parent poster 'csallen' is embracing the exact behavior he/she objects to. There's apparently a clear line of good and evil, and csallen can tell us exactly where that like is. We wouldn't know because we're brainwashed zombies who get our information from the nightly news. Since the internet, hopefully the average person is getting more information, and appreciates the depth of issues and history not to be so black and white on these matters. With all this protesting about Trump, I was very surprised to hear him admit that America is no better than the "killers" like Putin. Has a president ever admitted to such a thing? He just comes out and says it. I'm surprised that didn't get talked about more.. perhaps it was. "You think our country is so innocent?... A lot of Killers around believe me". https://youtu.be/74DAI2hr9Kk?t=2m35s https://youtu.be/74DAI2hr9Kk?t=2m35s
- csallen 10y ago
  I have, actually. Mossadegh was extremely popular, and actually had to be reinstated due to public outcry after his temporary removal. Did he eventually do some crazy things? Yes. But would that have happened without major foreign powers spending tons of money funding agitators and rebellion? Doubtful. Regardless, my initial point wasn't that the Iranian government under Mossadegh were the "good guys". It's that average American's aren't aware of the kinds of operations our country runs and why we carry them out.
  - refurb 10y ago
    I don't think we're going to solve this here. A few thoughts: first off it wasn't a coup since the Shah had the power to dismiss Prime Ministers. Second, Iran had gone through more than a dozen Prime Ministers in that time period. Mossadegh was one of many who were booted out of office. Claiming that if it weren't for the CIA that Mossadegh would have stayed in office and led a gov't with the confidence is the people is stretching it.
Agustus 10y ago
Accidents do not make terrorists. In the Iranian Air Flight incident, a gung-ho boat captain could not get a positive identification after being fired upon. There was no terroristic intent. Bad judgment, but not to the point where the captain intentionally fired upon a commercial aircraft. As for your comment about media notes, the Wikipedia article has a lot of notes. The 1940's through 1960's actions of the military were in a period of United States of America's mercantilism that was fighting against a sea of red dominoes that were showing up daily. Does this make it right, one cannot say based on the information available at the time. The fog of war is not easy and that is why the United States of America from the 80's on is so great, we have actively tried to be a better nation. I want to read about this stuff and see that after the cruiser incident happened, there was an investigation and a new approach put in place.
exodust 10y ago
And I bet Iranian commercial pilots always remembered to monitor civilian frequencies from that day forward. Lesson learned. Prevention is better than the cure. Same with Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 shot down over eastern Ukraine in 2014. Very bad, Russia probably to blame, 298 fatalities. If only some common sense were applied prior to planning a flight route over a known conflict zone, the lives would have been spared. Civil aviation is not exempt from negligence in these matters. In the case of the Malaysian Airlines flight, 16 military aircraft had been shot down in eastern Ukraine in the weeks prior to the commercial flight. In the report, Ukraine was also criticized for not closing its airspace to commercial traffic. Another hard lesson learned.
dionidium 10y ago
One should be capable of criticizing U.S. atrocities while maintaining perfect moral clarity regarding, for example, anyone whose religion compels them to murder cartoonists. The world isn't black and white, indeed.
Taek 10y ago
Embargoes and sanctions aren't often realized to be the tools of death that they are. People don't realize, but economic stress increases the mortality rate of a nation. Less money for hospitals, unexpected expenses, more stress overall (bad for health). I think it's something like 40,000 deaths per year for every percentage point of unemployment. Economic warfare is murder all the same as gun and tank warfare. You cripple a nations ability to contribute to global society.

by csallen 10y ago

3131s 10y ago

> Our "defense" of Vietnam. And most people only think of Vietnam itself regarding that conflict, yet Cambodia and Laos were absolutely decimated too. The US dropped more tons of bombs on Laos and Cambodia individually than the combined amount dropped by the allied forces in WWII. There are still 80 million unexploded bombs in the Laos countryside. Landmines sold by the US and China to the Lon Nol government and the Khmer Rouge respectively were up until recently killing 1000+ Cambodians a year. If you've seen these places and met the people there, it's hard to imagine.

jahnu 10y ago
What's even sadder is with a few billion much of that uxo could be cleaned up but they struggle for basic funding to clear some each year. In my mind that displays there is little remorse for past actions.
- DanBC 10y ago
  Here' an example of landmine clearance in Cambodia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWfNZoXr6rQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWfNZoXr6rQ (From CmdrFred's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12187512#12190918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12187512#12190918)
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Holy hell. Filming that takes guts. Doing the disarming is the next level of courage. I just wonder how much deaths did it cost them to get the knowledge and proficiency in clearing those mines.
    - brianwawok 10y ago
      I suspect by hand land-mine disarming has a very strong survivor bias... I.e. you don't make it to week 2 of your job if you are clumsy
      - ouid 10y ago
        There are some situations when the mine could be in either of 2 locations, though.
  - saganus 10y ago
    WOW.... that's some brass courage right there. And to think there are so many of them buried around. It's just heart-breaking.
wallace_f 10y ago
That's awful. I thought I knew of a lot of the "unreported war crimes" we've done, but I did not know of this.

cyberferret 10y ago

I was living in South East Asia when the USS Vincennes incident took place, and it was widely reported there. But I do remember when I returned to Australia, hardly anybody knew about what had happened. That was my first introduction to 'curated news' by various countries. Of course, a few years later when the family of the Captain of the Vincennes was targeted in a failed car bomb attack, we heard a bit about this 'terrorist' activity. I thought it interesting that when Western forces eradicate an entire family of a suspected 'terrorist' via anonymous drone strikes, it is considered merely collateral damage, a byproduct of a dutiful and patriotic thing to do, but when Iranian operatives attempt to retaliate against someone who murdered 290 of its citizens in their own airspace, it is an underhanded terrorist activity.

linuxkerneldev 10y ago
> the USS Vincennes incident took place Summary for those who like me didn't know about the incident. Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. " Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai. On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes under the command of William C. Rogers III. The incident took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from Vincennes. All 290 people on board died ... As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran but agreed to pay on an ex gratia basis US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims. ... Commander David Carlson, commanding officer of USS Sides, the warship stationed nearest to Vincennes at the time of the incident, is reported to have said that the destruction of the aircraft "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago". ... In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

starik36 10y ago

I am not sure what your point is in bringing Iran, maybe its to blame the US for the current situation there. Keep in mind that 1953 was over 60 years ago. To keep on blaming US for acts committed that long ago and apply to today...well, it's ridiculous.

chinathrow 10y ago
I strongly disagree: it's not ridiculous at all when it comes to war crimes or crimes against humanity. Also, Iran was one example, the list of U.S. aggressions against sovereign nations without U.N. mandate goes on up to very recent times (Syria).
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  The system of getting UN mandates has become useless because Russia is both on the security council and an offender of the rules it was supposed to defend. By all rights, there should be a UN mandate to fight IS in Syria. There should have been a UN mandate to fight the Assad regime, for that matter. Not intervening did not lead to less destabilization, just to more war crimes by the original regime.
  - jacobush 10y ago
    Make that Russia and the US. Still, it's better that they divide at least some spoils at the table in the UN. The alternative could be on the battlefield :-/
    - bayesian_horse 10y ago
      The US isn't getting any "spoils" from the wars it fought. At best they are keeping trade lines open. In no sense did they profit from their actions. Russia, maybe. The invasion of Crimea may have been profitable, if it weren't for the sanctions. Which is one of the best arguments in favor of these sanctions.
      - 10y ago

wallace_f 10y ago

> Honestly, I somewhat doubt a thread like this could make it to the top of HN at a time when most Americans aren't sleeping. Americans don't want to read this stuff. Americans are finally waking up and realizing we need to do something to protect justice, or we'll be next. First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out... We're well past the time to speak out. The time to speak out is now. It's not against Trump. It's not against Clinton. Nor Obama. It's against all of them. It's against a broken system.

jameslk 10y ago

> Honestly, I somewhat doubt a thread like this could make it to the top of HN at a time when most Americans aren't sleeping. Americans don't want to read this stuff. I completely agree with you, and I'm an American. To claim that Americans are the only ones that need to wake up is a bit disingenuous though. Perhaps we need a wakeup call from the outside. The nations that have allied with the US, or benefit from friendly relations with the US are also complicit in what the US is doing. Where's the sanctions on the US? There aren't as many because sadly others benefit from the actions of the US by simply turning a blind eye.

3131s 10y ago
I'm American too (and I posted this) and I fear that you two are correct. I live on the other side of the world though, hence the posting hours. I was totally surprised to see this at #1 for a bit, though I am just happy that it's getting discussed. No candidate for president will ever get my vote unless they talk seriously about scaling back the American military-industrial complex.
- jasonkostempski 10y ago
  Do you think the HN crowd is the type to bury their heads in the sand? I don't get that impression. I'm on here all hours of the day and I see things like this hit the front page pretty regularly. They don't stay up long, I think, because they're a bit outside the targeted topics for this site.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    You can't downvote things off the front page, but people can and do abuse the flag button for this. There's also an algorithmic penalty for "too controversial" topics with too many comments, I believe.
    - grzm 10y ago
      people can and do abuse the flag button for this The flag link and the upvote button are both legitimate means for HN members to express whether they feel a submission is appropriate for HN.

maxerickson 10y ago

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/world/downing-flight-655-us-downs-iran-airliner-mistaken-for-f-14-290-reported-dead.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/world/downing-flight-655-u... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/flight801/stories/july88crash.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/flight80... The "Page A01" on the WaPo article is the front page. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuWOCLEuXu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuWOCLEuXu4 Which is not to say that such events are prominent in the memory of Americans, but it's just not true that they don't get put on the news. 2 of the biggest papers in the country (and I'm sure many others) and major TV news operations covered the event.

csallen 10y ago
You are correct, they are reported, I was overly hyperbolic to say "nary a peep". They are just drastically underreported compared to attacks no the US and its allies.
- dhimes 10y ago
  Very hyperbolic. There was an entire investigation. It was scandalous.

pizza 10y ago

And then there is the shitshow of the Lockerbie bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103_conspiracy_theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103_conspiracy_t...

JackFr 10y ago

>Or you've probably never heard of Iran Flight 655, where in 1988 a reckless US cruiser drifted into Iranian waters and shot down an Iranian commercial airplane in Iranian airspace. 290 fatalities, including women and children. 8th deadliest disaster in aviation history, nary a peep in the US media: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655. But they are the reckless terrorists to watch out for. 'Nary a peep in the US media'? Front page in the New York Times and Washington Post? http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/world/downing-flight-655-us-downs-iran-airliner-mistaken-for-f-14-290-reported-dead.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/world/downing-flight-655-u... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/flight801/stories/july88crash.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/flight80... I'm not sure what a would constitute 'a peep' for you.

csallen 10y ago
Compare it to the Soviets shooting down Korean Air Lines Flight 007 in 1983. Chomsky writes, "For the month of September 1983 alone, the New York Times index—the very densely printed index of articles that have appeared in the Times—has seven full pages devoted to this story. That's the index, for one month alone. The liberal Boston Globe on the first day of coverage had its first ten full pages devoted to that story and nothing else." That's what a peep looks like. What do you think would happen if Iran were to shoot down an American commercial flight in US waters/airspace with hundreds of families on board?
- akamaka 10y ago
  The phrase "nary a peep" means "never one single small sound". The context of this discussion is about entirely unreported drone strikes, not the number of pages devoted to a front page incident. Your points are fair, but there's no need to start an argument over misreading what the parent comment what trying to say.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    This seems a bit disingenuous to me, without your parent's comment I for one would have had a misleading perception of the reality (assuming that comment is true, is it not?).

johnflan 10y ago

I think much of this 'freedom' has come from The USA's overly elevated global position coming out of WW2. The USA prospered economically, scientifically and socially all while Western Europe was on its knees. The EU has been, in my eyes at least an attempt at rebalancing of Western Power.

rad_gruchalski 10y ago
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworl...

wtbob 10y ago

> In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-elected government in favor of the opposition No, we didn't: the rightful government (the Shah's) overthrew an attempted dictator. Mossadegh lived out the rest of his life in peace, and died in bed. > Or you've probably never heard of Iran Flight 655, where in 1988 a reckless US cruiser drifted into Iranian waters and shot down an Iranian commercial airplane in Iranian airspace. No, it wasn't reckless: the electronic data gave Vincennes good reason to believe that it was being attacked by an Iranian fighter. > Our "defense" of Vietnam. The 2 million South Vietnamese who fled their country after North Vietnam conquered sure seemed to have appreciated our defence: while we were there, they didn't take to the sea in boats, fleeing for their lives.

csallen 10y ago
> No, we didn't: the rightful government (the Shah's) overthrew an attempted dictator. Mossadegh lived out the rest of his life in peace, and died in bed. Only if you define "rightful" as the government that the UK and US decided was favorable to them, and not the one supported consistently by the Iranian people via elections. I don't see how you can argue this point — both the US and UK have outright admitted to their actions (fomenting and supporting the coup) and to their reasons for doing so (oil). And Mossadegh was sentenced to execution, but his life was personally spared by the Shah. > No, it wasn't reckless: the electronic data gave Vincennes good reason to believe that it was being attacked by an Iranian fighter. "Three years after the incident, Admiral William J. Crowe admitted on American television show Nightline that Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles." Is this not reckless? "Commander David Carlson, commanding officer of USS Sides, the warship stationed nearest to Vincennes at the time of the incident, is reported to have said that the destruction of the aircraft 'marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago'." Reckless according to his own colleague. "Throughout its final flight, IR655 was in radio contact with various air traffic control services using standard civil aviation frequencies, and had spoken in English to Bandar Abbas Approach Control seconds before Vincennes launched its missiles. According to the U.S. Navy investigation Vincennes at that time had no equipment suitable for monitoring civil aviation frequencies, other than the International Air Distress frequency." Obviously the Vincennes didn't commit a brazen attack for no reason at all. They had some reason to believe they might be attacked. But sailing into another country's waters and airspace with no ability to differentiate between fighter and commercial jet is reckless, and furthermore it was done by a captain with a history of reckless behavior. > The 2 million South Vietnamese who fled their country after North Vietnam conquered sure seemed to have appreciated our defense: while we were there, they didn't take to the sea in boats, fleeing for their lives. They were forced to fight a war they didn't support for decades, under a brutal and unpopular autocratic leader, Diem. He forced his pro-Christian and anti-Communist sentiments on his people and oppressed those who disagreed until he was eventually assassinated. Meanwhile the US devastated the country and drove the North into a fight-or-flight state of desperation. Of course the people of the South didn't want to stick around to face their vengeance.

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refurb 10y ago

You're making the same mistake as the people you're chastizing. You're filtering this historical events through your own filter to create a good guy and bad guy. It's more complicated then that. I encourage you to dive into the details of Mossadegh's overthrow. Did the US and British encourage the coup? Sure. Was there significant opposition to his rule among Iranians? Definitely. I argue he would have been disposed regardless of US or British involvement.

exodust 10y ago
I was going to say the same thing as your first point. Parent poster 'csallen' is embracing the exact behavior he/she objects to. There's apparently a clear line of good and evil, and csallen can tell us exactly where that like is. We wouldn't know because we're brainwashed zombies who get our information from the nightly news. Since the internet, hopefully the average person is getting more information, and appreciates the depth of issues and history not to be so black and white on these matters. With all this protesting about Trump, I was very surprised to hear him admit that America is no better than the "killers" like Putin. Has a president ever admitted to such a thing? He just comes out and says it. I'm surprised that didn't get talked about more.. perhaps it was. "You think our country is so innocent?... A lot of Killers around believe me". https://youtu.be/74DAI2hr9Kk?t=2m35s https://youtu.be/74DAI2hr9Kk?t=2m35s
csallen 10y ago
I have, actually. Mossadegh was extremely popular, and actually had to be reinstated due to public outcry after his temporary removal. Did he eventually do some crazy things? Yes. But would that have happened without major foreign powers spending tons of money funding agitators and rebellion? Doubtful. Regardless, my initial point wasn't that the Iranian government under Mossadegh were the "good guys". It's that average American's aren't aware of the kinds of operations our country runs and why we carry them out.
- refurb 10y ago
  I don't think we're going to solve this here. A few thoughts: first off it wasn't a coup since the Shah had the power to dismiss Prime Ministers. Second, Iran had gone through more than a dozen Prime Ministers in that time period. Mossadegh was one of many who were booted out of office. Claiming that if it weren't for the CIA that Mossadegh would have stayed in office and led a gov't with the confidence is the people is stretching it.

Agustus 10y ago

Accidents do not make terrorists. In the Iranian Air Flight incident, a gung-ho boat captain could not get a positive identification after being fired upon. There was no terroristic intent. Bad judgment, but not to the point where the captain intentionally fired upon a commercial aircraft. As for your comment about media notes, the Wikipedia article has a lot of notes. The 1940's through 1960's actions of the military were in a period of United States of America's mercantilism that was fighting against a sea of red dominoes that were showing up daily. Does this make it right, one cannot say based on the information available at the time. The fog of war is not easy and that is why the United States of America from the 80's on is so great, we have actively tried to be a better nation. I want to read about this stuff and see that after the cruiser incident happened, there was an investigation and a new approach put in place.

exodust 10y ago

And I bet Iranian commercial pilots always remembered to monitor civilian frequencies from that day forward. Lesson learned. Prevention is better than the cure. Same with Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 shot down over eastern Ukraine in 2014. Very bad, Russia probably to blame, 298 fatalities. If only some common sense were applied prior to planning a flight route over a known conflict zone, the lives would have been spared. Civil aviation is not exempt from negligence in these matters. In the case of the Malaysian Airlines flight, 16 military aircraft had been shot down in eastern Ukraine in the weeks prior to the commercial flight. In the report, Ukraine was also criticized for not closing its airspace to commercial traffic. Another hard lesson learned.

dionidium 10y ago

One should be capable of criticizing U.S. atrocities while maintaining perfect moral clarity regarding, for example, anyone whose religion compels them to murder cartoonists. The world isn't black and white, indeed.

Taek 10y ago

Embargoes and sanctions aren't often realized to be the tools of death that they are. People don't realize, but economic stress increases the mortality rate of a nation. Less money for hospitals, unexpected expenses, more stress overall (bad for health). I think it's something like 40,000 deaths per year for every percentage point of unemployment. Economic warfare is murder all the same as gun and tank warfare. You cripple a nations ability to contribute to global society.