20 ms·

To Live Your Best Life, Do Mathematics

538 points by digital55 10y ago

nojvek 10y ago
I wonder if inmates have access to computers, would they become good programmers?
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  Give anyone (not just inmates) a computer and they are much more likely to become good Candy Crush players, Facebook users, and Buzzfeed readers than good programmers.
  - ccvannorman 10y ago
    Give a man a computer, feed his mind for a day. teach a man to computer ...
    - koolba 10y ago
      More like give a man a computer and he'll start looking at porn.
      - state_less 10y ago
        What if s/he had to write a perl script to download it though?
        koolba 10y ago
        Well funny story because that's how I learned perl ...
        state_less 10y ago
        The old man likes to jerk us around sometimes ;) Be good koolba, hope you're happy as Larry.
    - henrik_w 10y ago
      "Give someone a program, you frustrate them for a day; teach them how to program, you frustrate them for a lifetime." - David Leinweber
      - catnaroek 10y ago
        It's a good kind of frustration, though. It reminds me of Terence Parr's motto: > “Why program by hand in five days what you can spend five years of your life automating?” Link: http://parrt.cs.usfca.edu/ http://parrt.cs.usfca.edu/
  - grogenaut 10y ago
    What if they have an computer with no games and no internet. As to your response... Should inmates be deprived of all distractions, especially trivial ones? How often do you BuzzFeed or candy crush or Facebook?
    - Hydraulix989 10y ago
      > How often do you BuzzFeed or candy crush or Facebook? I'm definitely an outlier here, sample size one. :-)
      - grogenaut 10y ago
        So all day cc or never
    - kzisme 10y ago
      I would assume they would being writing. That would likely be the first step most would take. After that their abilities in mathematics, or just a general interest in problem solving would take them pretty far (barring games and internet)
  - GuiA 10y ago
    Sure, just like give anyone access to a library and they are much more likely to read magazines and romance novels than 19th century French literature. That's missing the point though. The point is access and opportunity. Even if only 5% become programmers, it's a net win overall (and that's not even counting the people who might play Candy Crush but still use the computer to better themselves in other ways - learning, filing taxes, etc.).
    - xor1 10y ago
      There's nothing wrong with his response given how the original post was worded...
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - curiousgal 10y ago
      >they are much more likely to read magazines and romance novels than 19th century French literature. Unless you count Madame Bovary.
    - Hydraulix989 10y ago
      Sure I agree, but remember, parent was wondering "if inmates have access to computers, would they become good programmers?"
      - rhizome 10y ago
        A conversation based on competing generalizations is pretty thin gruel.
  - stOneskull 10y ago
    without internet or games maybe. could be a linux install with no desktop, and a book about python.
    - lineindc 10y ago
      They'll learn how to install Xorg and import a WebKit library so they can browse Facebook.
    - ashark 10y ago
      ... and a device that lets them play a handful of games like tetris, but only 1 minute/hour. They'll get to work re-implementing their favorites (without the time limit) on the computer before long.
  - sn9 10y ago
    Or you could just give them a Commodore 64 or Unix box with some good CS books and no internet access. (Or a Raspberry Pi, to be more realistic.)
- ichamo 10y ago
  As a former inmate who found solace in studying math, yes. I wish I had done the same with computer science.
primodemus 10y ago
Francis is a great lecturer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqEyWLGvvdw&list=PL04BA7A9EB907EDAF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqEyWLGvvdw&list=PL04BA7A9EB...
- 0xFFC 10y ago
  I literally start to love mathematics with him. Before watching his lectures I always afraid of mathematics, but watching his Real Analysis class, developed a new sense in me about mathematics. From that point I always liked mathematics.
- kzisme 10y ago
  Thanks for the link! I'm going to try to set aside some time to watch these lectures in the future. I've always wanted to learn more math in my spare time, but I've been unsure how to approach it outside of a classroom.
- mcshicks 10y ago
  I agree, I watched his lectures when trying to teach myself real analysis. He also has a website with lots of useful info including links to the videos organized by lecture number/subject and some other interesting links http://analysisyawp.blogspot.com/ http://analysisyawp.blogspot.com/
- dbcurtis 10y ago
  Francis Su is a great person. I've had the privilege of meeting him and having a couple of quality conversations with him. He is (or at least used to be) a regular part of the faculty at the MathPath camp, a summer camp for 11-14 year old kids. My daughter absolutely loved that camp, and attended for three years. Su taught some very fun sessions there that my daughter (now college freshman) still talks about. (BTW I highly recommend the camp.) I found it amusing that the article referred to Harvey Mudd as a "liberal arts" college. I think of it as a butt-kicking engineering school.
stablemap 10y ago
Everyone I know who went to his MAA farewell address said it was wonderful. Definitely follow their link to read or hear the whole thing: https://mathyawp.wordpress.com/2017/01/08/mathematics-for-human-flourishing/ https://mathyawp.wordpress.com/2017/01/08/mathematics-for-hu...
- danielahn 10y ago
  There's a link at the top of your linked site to an audio recording - maybe it was recently edited in
  - stablemap 10y ago
    The Wayback machine does not absolve me—probably I just missed it twice. Thank you.
- ndh2 10y ago
  I find the headline and the article in the OP to be a bit misleading. This is not about the general public, or the relationship of individuals to mathematics. It's not a "hey, you should do more maths!" type of motivational speech. The whole speech is addressed to the leaders of the math community, i. e. the teachers. It's a well-crafted plea for introspection, to find the humanity that was somehow lost along the way.
gthtjtkt 10y ago
Based on all the supposed benefits of doing math, it sounds like people would be better off studying philosophy. Same benefits but a much broader appeal, and far more applicable to most people's everyday lives. When I finally "discovered" philosophy in college, I was angry that we hadn't been exposed to it at all in middle or high school. Instead, I'd been forced to waste years on things like math, biology, etc. that I had no interest in and no use for. Our history / social studies classes would be greatly improved if they incorporated more philosophy.
- xor1 10y ago
  Could you expand on this? I'm curious what you mean. My only exposure to philosophy was an intro course in college.
  - irrational 10y ago
    What is the philosophy behind arrow functions in JavaScript? Should I just use them blindly, or should I understand why this exists and why/when I should use it? What problem does it solve? Why?! In my opinion every article about some aspect of programming should begin what an explanation of the philosophy behind it's development. Why does this exist? What problem does it solve? When should it be used/not used?
    - dbancajas 10y ago
      sounds a lot like being a grad student.
  - gthtjtkt 10y ago
    The way I see it, most subjects in school focus on teaching you what to think. Philosophy focuses more on how to think. That's obviously not true in all cases (there are plenty of dogmatic philosophies) but in my opinion it's much more common for people to teach things like math, biology, history, etc. as a series of objective, memorized facts and formulas. Doing that with philosophy is far more difficult because so much of it is subjective and relies on criticism and analysis. In that regard, learning philosophy serves as a foundation for learning all other subjects, or learning anything in life, for that matter. I also personally believe there's more beauty in great philosophy than in any poem or song. There are plenty of Socratic dialogues, stoic passages, and political pamphlets that still give me chills when I read them. Chapter VI in this short book of dialogues, for example: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17490/17490-h/17490-h.htm http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17490/17490-h/17490-h.htm
stOneskull 10y ago
it reminds me of the awesome team who get involved with the numberphile youtube series. guys like james grimes and matt parker. inspiring the love.
recycleme 10y ago
Interesting. Anyone have a recommendation on a Math app for everyday use?
- tunesmith 10y ago
  Khan Academy can get you pretty far, if you like going through the remedial stuff then you can even take the quizzes to get "Mastery" in various subjects like Algebra, Trig, I think Calculus too. But I'd love something else that is more adaptive and gives you exercises and education as you go. As a hobbyist one of the hardest part is figuring out where to jump in so you're neither bored nor overwhelmed.
- throwaway26960 10y ago
  I'm sure an app would defeat the purpose...
- abecedarius 10y ago
  Euclidea is fun. I'm not sure if that's the sort of use you mean.
- sn9 10y ago
  The level of math amenable to apps isn't really what Su is talking about. I would suggest learning proofs, and maybe pick up some Art of Problem Solving books. Or perhaps working through the foundational curriculum of any decent math program (e.g., algebra, analysis, topology, number theory, etc.).
  - dllthomas 10y ago
    http://incredible.pm http://incredible.pm is perhaps relevant, albeit shallow and localized.
Koshkin 10y ago
Well, mathematics is hard. It takes a lot of effort to really learn it, a lot of dedication and (self-)motivation. Not everyone can do it, and, frankly, very few people - even among those who have spent many years studying mathematics - could say that it is the best way to live your life.
- afterburner 10y ago
  This reminds me of when people say the best career is the one they happen to have, and everyone should do what they do. But... people are different.
  - SilasX 10y ago
    It's the fallacy that has led to the extreme oversupply of post-graduate academic job seekers: far too many people are in college, getting advice from professors who think, "well, it worked for me, you should do it too!"
- macawfish 10y ago
  I profoundly disagree. I believe that mathematics can be learned and appreciated by many, because mathematics is a language for articulating inner urges and perceptions that are common to a wide range of creatures, not only humans. This idea that mathematics is only for the few is self fulfilling, and perpetuated by narrow ideas of what it constitutes.
  - 110011 10y ago
    There is a huge difference between the pursuit of new mathematics and the appreciation and understanding of existing work. I think OP is talking about the former and it certainly isn't for everyone, at least not the way it is currently implemented. To understand this you need to look at the career track of newly minted math PhDs and what one needs to do to secure tenure. I do agree that math can and should be widely appreciated.
    - mlmlmasd 10y ago
wnevets 10y ago
> In 2015 he became the first person of color to lead the MAA. I didn't realize chinese was a person of color.
- eru 10y ago
  Compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7819625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7819625
110011 10y ago
As a counterpoint to the overly exuberant article let me chime in as a graduating theoretical computer scientist. Math is hard and despite its beauty and allure academic life doesn't take place in a vacuum- ergo there's a lot of politics and pettiness from your peers. You should expect to invest years of your life into making progress on some hard problem with little encouragement in the meantime, this takes a tremendous toll on the mind and not for someone who falls easy prey to self doubt. Sometimes even after you publish your top result that took a lot out of you, it may take many years before people appreciate, let alone understand, your work- the vast majority of papers are never going to be read. To compensate for this horrible feedback mechanism you need to basically play the popularity game and try to give many talks and talk up your result when you meet people, so there's a lot of salesmanship involved here as well. So the career path of a junior scientist is pretty crushing mentally and I couldn't stomach it in the long run. In an ideal world I might have continued in academia but the career path is so twisted you have to either be insanely good (at math and at managing time) or just hate yourself enough to sacrifice your best years working essentially in the metaphorical darkness well outside the spotlight and most likely alone and poorly paid.
- cryoshon 10y ago
  >So the career path of a junior scientist is pretty crushing mentally this is true throughout the sciences. it's a big issue.
  - searine 10y ago
    Do you think it's the culture of science or the inherent uncertainty? From my own experience I think it's the latter. Jumping off the edge of human knowledge and hoping there was a result to catch my fall was very mentally taxing. Not many other careers force you to grabble with the uncertainty of creating knowledge, and I think it takes a toll.
    - Obi_Juan_Kenobi 10y ago
      The uncertainty of investigation pales to the uncertainty of funding. The former is a thrill to many, and the latter is at best a chore for all.
cosinetau 10y ago
The Greeks also drank hemlock. Just saying.
king_panic 10y ago
Elementary math skills, which many of us reading and writing on Hacker News know, would change the lives of many millions of people in ways we take for granted.
- acqq 10y ago
  "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI1C9DyIi_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI1C9DyIi_8
westoncb 10y ago
It seems like a lot of the benefits mentioned could arise from many other activities with similar likelihood. I think a lot of it has to do with developing expertise at something you believe is important, and which you are (or can become) comfortable doing. Totally agree that for people working in abstract technical areas (e.g. software architecture, philosophy, inventing things), however, mathematics has a special sort of value over other subjects. It deals in these super distilled concepts which have very general applicability; so, the concepts you learn end up expanding this pool you can draw from for coming up with new, related ideas, in a wide range of fields. It's also important to learn it as a sort of literacy, to widen the range of technical material you can read.
andrewflnr 10y ago
Su seems almost blind to the fact that you can do math outside an academic environment. You don't need to go to school for math to experience truth, beauty, play, etc in the context of math. You can read books, play around with the results, read articles on places like Quanta. You probably won't discover new things this way, but it will enrich your life. If your goal is for math to make people's lives better, then assuming school is involved at all is another unnecessary restriction.
- drakenot 10y ago
  Su opened his talk with the story of Christopher, an inmate serving a long sentence for armed robbery who had begun to teach himself math from textbooks he had ordered. After seven years in prison, during which he studied algebra, trigonometry, geometry and calculus, he wrote to Su asking for advice on how to continue his work. After Su told this story, he asked the packed ballroom at the Marriott Marquis, his voice breaking: “When you think of who does mathematics, do you think of Christopher?” It doesn't sound like he has that bias to me. He opens his talk speaking about someone who is a non-traditional student doing match outside an academic environment.
- FabHK 10y ago
  Many commenters here seem to be blind to that fact, but emphatically not Su.
sametmax 10y ago
The problem with this theory, is that it completely ignores that a lot of people good at math have poor people skills. And you need people to be happy and improve your life opportunities. So yeah, math is beautiful, and if you like it, go for it. But if you look for a skill to acquire or practice, your taste no withstanding, this may not be the best investment. Sport, social skills, languages, time management, self introspection and cooking are examples of things that usually pay off better than math in your life. It brings more people, opportunities, health, money, etc. Again, not saying math is not a good thing to practice. We need math as a specie. And an individual may need it for his or her happiness. But as a strategy I don't think so.
- ekm2 10y ago
  >a lot of people good at math have poor people skills All the more reason to open the floodgates so we can get the few people with both skillsets.
  - sametmax 10y ago
    You won't achieve that by encouraging people at doing math, it's not attractive enough. Just like it's hard to sell vegetable to somebody eating chocolate. And I LOOOOVE vegetables. You can, however, achieve this by encouraging nerds to get people skills. Double benefit : - they will have an easier life - nerds will be less stigmatized, linked topics will so be more appealing and math more successful I agree though that putting more kids in contact with math sooner will help a lot. A lot of kids like maths if it's shown to them with passion before they are exposed to the social stereotype or nerdiness.
- RandomInteger4 10y ago
  Maybe people good at math are actually great at people skills and you're just repeating a bias spread by a banality driven media.
  - ianai 10y ago
    In my experience, people are all equally bad at math. There are just people who have spent longer with the problem(s)/domain(s) and have developed a skill set around it. They start from the same beginnings, though. If you take them out of their usual 'watering hole' they go straight back to beginner status (and of course the degree of it varies by how far it is from their usual routine).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
RA_Fisher 10y ago
Being math with different syntaxes, this is true for programming as well.
- sn9 10y ago
  That's certainly the contention of the authors of How to Design Programs. http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/part_preface.html http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/part_preface.htm...
norcimo5 10y ago
"To Live Your Best Life, Do +Applied+ Mathematics". There's something delightful about using mathematics as a mean to an end...
wallace_f 10y ago
When you're not good enough to do, teach. When you're not strong enough to lead, follow. This article is just a bunch of exuberance and politically correct speech.
EternalData 10y ago
I took this to be a general call to learn and practice mathematics, and not as a summons to a career in academia, so perhaps I'm seeing it a bit differently. I have to say as somebody who through attrition always feared math in university that it is meaningful to think about reasons why people fear embracing certain types of knowledge. It's only after the fact that I realize how useful and even how romantic applications of mathematics might be. I might never be a starry-eyed or an often-drunk academic, but I've grown to really see my initial lack of mathematical learning to be an immensely high opportunity cost. So I can relate to anybody who thinks of structural reasons people might shy away from math and indeed all forms of intimidating knowledge.
- posterboy 10y ago
  >how romantic applications of mathematics might be. like, in the dating market or do you mean a philosophical potential? The philosophical aspect is huge, eg. to tell once meant counting, or logic and language having a common Greek root.
  - ihaveahadron 10y ago
    He means in the dating market, he's in love with math, women just aren't doing it for him.
  - EternalData 10y ago
    I mean, I was thinking more of romance as "imbued with idealism", but if differential equations can help me find true love, even better.
- ihaveahadron 10y ago
  Get a girlfriend dude, you've been jerking it or something too long if you are calling math "romantic". I don't know how to put it, but something's wrong when people get emotional about math and science. Maybe your a homo, I don't know man figure it out, but don't call math romantic again stupidass.
katehall 10y ago
I would rather say "to live your best life, make art"
jwtadvice 10y ago
While I can not claim to have made any imporant progress on the sorts of toy problems I like to work on (e.g. counting/bounding the number of strings two regular expressions both accept, counting the number of ways to represent integers using polynomials), I find the mere process of working on them, inventing new notation to succinctly express ideas and read relevant (and completely irrelevant) mathematical textbooks and articles a way to keep an "active brain" but relax: probably because nobody expects me to produce anything and my career doesn't depend on it.
sillypuddy 10y ago
Frank Su is a great teacher. I had him in ~2000 Teaching Game theory at Cornell, and I still remember the Math Fun Facts he used to start the class.
KennyCason 10y ago
I was recently explaining to a group the radiance of learning math for many years. It is really hard to convey the beauty that you see in things after years of studying math/logic. That amazing feeling through your mind when you solve something new. I can sometimes only best describe it as a lens that allows you to sense a previously imperceivable part of the universe and self. I can't even imagine walking around without this lens. Perhaps that sounds a bit hyperbolic or mystical, but this is my feeling.
dgotrik 10y ago
Here's the video: https://www.facebook.com/maanews/videos/10154879169165419/ https://www.facebook.com/maanews/videos/10154879169165419/
n0mad01 10y ago
and also take your vitamin d.
losteverything 10y ago
Surprised no mention of music. <play, beauty, truth, justice and love. Math and music gives me all those. My Math inclination brings tears To binary situations and lasts (as in the last time I'll ....) Truth is a set. Justice is relativity (<,>,=) Play is math humor with the pun as king. And love is random uncontrolable feeling.
SZJX 10y ago
Well maths always sounds good with all its allure of "purity" and "intellect". However I think one should remember that maths is basically some very-high level abstractions on our analog, chaotic world. Just like rigid linguistics/grammatical rules fail miserably in representing actual human languages, abstract maths probably also cannot claim to represent the real essence of the world that well. Even a statistical/neural network-style approach does it so much better. So yeah, if you're so into constructing and deconstructing abstruse abstractions, maybe do maths very seriously. But does it really represent the "truth" of life? I think that might be a bit dubious.

538 points by digital55 10y ago

nojvek 10y ago

I wonder if inmates have access to computers, would they become good programmers?

Hydraulix989 10y ago
Give anyone (not just inmates) a computer and they are much more likely to become good Candy Crush players, Facebook users, and Buzzfeed readers than good programmers.
- ccvannorman 10y ago
  Give a man a computer, feed his mind for a day. teach a man to computer ...
  - koolba 10y ago
    More like give a man a computer and he'll start looking at porn.
    - state_less 10y ago
      What if s/he had to write a perl script to download it though?
      - koolba 10y ago
        Well funny story because that's how I learned perl ...
        state_less 10y ago
        The old man likes to jerk us around sometimes ;) Be good koolba, hope you're happy as Larry.
  - henrik_w 10y ago
    "Give someone a program, you frustrate them for a day; teach them how to program, you frustrate them for a lifetime." - David Leinweber
    - catnaroek 10y ago
      It's a good kind of frustration, though. It reminds me of Terence Parr's motto: > “Why program by hand in five days what you can spend five years of your life automating?” Link: http://parrt.cs.usfca.edu/ http://parrt.cs.usfca.edu/
- grogenaut 10y ago
  What if they have an computer with no games and no internet. As to your response... Should inmates be deprived of all distractions, especially trivial ones? How often do you BuzzFeed or candy crush or Facebook?
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    > How often do you BuzzFeed or candy crush or Facebook? I'm definitely an outlier here, sample size one. :-)
    - grogenaut 10y ago
      So all day cc or never
  - kzisme 10y ago
    I would assume they would being writing. That would likely be the first step most would take. After that their abilities in mathematics, or just a general interest in problem solving would take them pretty far (barring games and internet)
- GuiA 10y ago
  Sure, just like give anyone access to a library and they are much more likely to read magazines and romance novels than 19th century French literature. That's missing the point though. The point is access and opportunity. Even if only 5% become programmers, it's a net win overall (and that's not even counting the people who might play Candy Crush but still use the computer to better themselves in other ways - learning, filing taxes, etc.).
  - xor1 10y ago
    There's nothing wrong with his response given how the original post was worded...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - curiousgal 10y ago
    >they are much more likely to read magazines and romance novels than 19th century French literature. Unless you count Madame Bovary.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    Sure I agree, but remember, parent was wondering "if inmates have access to computers, would they become good programmers?"
    - rhizome 10y ago
      A conversation based on competing generalizations is pretty thin gruel.
- stOneskull 10y ago
  without internet or games maybe. could be a linux install with no desktop, and a book about python.
  - lineindc 10y ago
    They'll learn how to install Xorg and import a WebKit library so they can browse Facebook.
  - ashark 10y ago
    ... and a device that lets them play a handful of games like tetris, but only 1 minute/hour. They'll get to work re-implementing their favorites (without the time limit) on the computer before long.
- sn9 10y ago
  Or you could just give them a Commodore 64 or Unix box with some good CS books and no internet access. (Or a Raspberry Pi, to be more realistic.)
ichamo 10y ago
As a former inmate who found solace in studying math, yes. I wish I had done the same with computer science.

primodemus 10y ago

Francis is a great lecturer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqEyWLGvvdw&list=PL04BA7A9EB907EDAF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqEyWLGvvdw&list=PL04BA7A9EB...

0xFFC 10y ago
I literally start to love mathematics with him. Before watching his lectures I always afraid of mathematics, but watching his Real Analysis class, developed a new sense in me about mathematics. From that point I always liked mathematics.
kzisme 10y ago
Thanks for the link! I'm going to try to set aside some time to watch these lectures in the future. I've always wanted to learn more math in my spare time, but I've been unsure how to approach it outside of a classroom.
mcshicks 10y ago
I agree, I watched his lectures when trying to teach myself real analysis. He also has a website with lots of useful info including links to the videos organized by lecture number/subject and some other interesting links http://analysisyawp.blogspot.com/ http://analysisyawp.blogspot.com/
dbcurtis 10y ago
Francis Su is a great person. I've had the privilege of meeting him and having a couple of quality conversations with him. He is (or at least used to be) a regular part of the faculty at the MathPath camp, a summer camp for 11-14 year old kids. My daughter absolutely loved that camp, and attended for three years. Su taught some very fun sessions there that my daughter (now college freshman) still talks about. (BTW I highly recommend the camp.) I found it amusing that the article referred to Harvey Mudd as a "liberal arts" college. I think of it as a butt-kicking engineering school.

stablemap 10y ago

Everyone I know who went to his MAA farewell address said it was wonderful. Definitely follow their link to read or hear the whole thing: https://mathyawp.wordpress.com/2017/01/08/mathematics-for-human-flourishing/ https://mathyawp.wordpress.com/2017/01/08/mathematics-for-hu...

danielahn 10y ago
There's a link at the top of your linked site to an audio recording - maybe it was recently edited in
- stablemap 10y ago
  The Wayback machine does not absolve me—probably I just missed it twice. Thank you.
ndh2 10y ago
I find the headline and the article in the OP to be a bit misleading. This is not about the general public, or the relationship of individuals to mathematics. It's not a "hey, you should do more maths!" type of motivational speech. The whole speech is addressed to the leaders of the math community, i. e. the teachers. It's a well-crafted plea for introspection, to find the humanity that was somehow lost along the way.

gthtjtkt 10y ago

Based on all the supposed benefits of doing math, it sounds like people would be better off studying philosophy. Same benefits but a much broader appeal, and far more applicable to most people's everyday lives. When I finally "discovered" philosophy in college, I was angry that we hadn't been exposed to it at all in middle or high school. Instead, I'd been forced to waste years on things like math, biology, etc. that I had no interest in and no use for. Our history / social studies classes would be greatly improved if they incorporated more philosophy.

xor1 10y ago
Could you expand on this? I'm curious what you mean. My only exposure to philosophy was an intro course in college.
- irrational 10y ago
  What is the philosophy behind arrow functions in JavaScript? Should I just use them blindly, or should I understand why this exists and why/when I should use it? What problem does it solve? Why?! In my opinion every article about some aspect of programming should begin what an explanation of the philosophy behind it's development. Why does this exist? What problem does it solve? When should it be used/not used?
  - dbancajas 10y ago
    sounds a lot like being a grad student.
- gthtjtkt 10y ago
  The way I see it, most subjects in school focus on teaching you what to think. Philosophy focuses more on how to think. That's obviously not true in all cases (there are plenty of dogmatic philosophies) but in my opinion it's much more common for people to teach things like math, biology, history, etc. as a series of objective, memorized facts and formulas. Doing that with philosophy is far more difficult because so much of it is subjective and relies on criticism and analysis. In that regard, learning philosophy serves as a foundation for learning all other subjects, or learning anything in life, for that matter. I also personally believe there's more beauty in great philosophy than in any poem or song. There are plenty of Socratic dialogues, stoic passages, and political pamphlets that still give me chills when I read them. Chapter VI in this short book of dialogues, for example: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17490/17490-h/17490-h.htm http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17490/17490-h/17490-h.htm

stOneskull 10y ago

it reminds me of the awesome team who get involved with the numberphile youtube series. guys like james grimes and matt parker. inspiring the love.

recycleme 10y ago

Interesting. Anyone have a recommendation on a Math app for everyday use?

tunesmith 10y ago
Khan Academy can get you pretty far, if you like going through the remedial stuff then you can even take the quizzes to get "Mastery" in various subjects like Algebra, Trig, I think Calculus too. But I'd love something else that is more adaptive and gives you exercises and education as you go. As a hobbyist one of the hardest part is figuring out where to jump in so you're neither bored nor overwhelmed.
throwaway26960 10y ago
I'm sure an app would defeat the purpose...
abecedarius 10y ago
Euclidea is fun. I'm not sure if that's the sort of use you mean.
sn9 10y ago
The level of math amenable to apps isn't really what Su is talking about. I would suggest learning proofs, and maybe pick up some Art of Problem Solving books. Or perhaps working through the foundational curriculum of any decent math program (e.g., algebra, analysis, topology, number theory, etc.).
- dllthomas 10y ago
  http://incredible.pm http://incredible.pm is perhaps relevant, albeit shallow and localized.

Koshkin 10y ago

Well, mathematics is hard. It takes a lot of effort to really learn it, a lot of dedication and (self-)motivation. Not everyone can do it, and, frankly, very few people - even among those who have spent many years studying mathematics - could say that it is the best way to live your life.

afterburner 10y ago
This reminds me of when people say the best career is the one they happen to have, and everyone should do what they do. But... people are different.
- SilasX 10y ago
  It's the fallacy that has led to the extreme oversupply of post-graduate academic job seekers: far too many people are in college, getting advice from professors who think, "well, it worked for me, you should do it too!"
macawfish 10y ago
I profoundly disagree. I believe that mathematics can be learned and appreciated by many, because mathematics is a language for articulating inner urges and perceptions that are common to a wide range of creatures, not only humans. This idea that mathematics is only for the few is self fulfilling, and perpetuated by narrow ideas of what it constitutes.
- 110011 10y ago
  There is a huge difference between the pursuit of new mathematics and the appreciation and understanding of existing work. I think OP is talking about the former and it certainly isn't for everyone, at least not the way it is currently implemented. To understand this you need to look at the career track of newly minted math PhDs and what one needs to do to secure tenure. I do agree that math can and should be widely appreciated.
  - mlmlmasd 10y ago

wnevets 10y ago

> In 2015 he became the first person of color to lead the MAA. I didn't realize chinese was a person of color.

eru 10y ago
Compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7819625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7819625

110011 10y ago

As a counterpoint to the overly exuberant article let me chime in as a graduating theoretical computer scientist. Math is hard and despite its beauty and allure academic life doesn't take place in a vacuum- ergo there's a lot of politics and pettiness from your peers. You should expect to invest years of your life into making progress on some hard problem with little encouragement in the meantime, this takes a tremendous toll on the mind and not for someone who falls easy prey to self doubt. Sometimes even after you publish your top result that took a lot out of you, it may take many years before people appreciate, let alone understand, your work- the vast majority of papers are never going to be read. To compensate for this horrible feedback mechanism you need to basically play the popularity game and try to give many talks and talk up your result when you meet people, so there's a lot of salesmanship involved here as well. So the career path of a junior scientist is pretty crushing mentally and I couldn't stomach it in the long run. In an ideal world I might have continued in academia but the career path is so twisted you have to either be insanely good (at math and at managing time) or just hate yourself enough to sacrifice your best years working essentially in the metaphorical darkness well outside the spotlight and most likely alone and poorly paid.

cryoshon 10y ago
>So the career path of a junior scientist is pretty crushing mentally this is true throughout the sciences. it's a big issue.
- searine 10y ago
  Do you think it's the culture of science or the inherent uncertainty? From my own experience I think it's the latter. Jumping off the edge of human knowledge and hoping there was a result to catch my fall was very mentally taxing. Not many other careers force you to grabble with the uncertainty of creating knowledge, and I think it takes a toll.
  - Obi_Juan_Kenobi 10y ago
    The uncertainty of investigation pales to the uncertainty of funding. The former is a thrill to many, and the latter is at best a chore for all.

cosinetau 10y ago

The Greeks also drank hemlock. Just saying.

king_panic 10y ago

Elementary math skills, which many of us reading and writing on Hacker News know, would change the lives of many millions of people in ways we take for granted.

acqq 10y ago
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI1C9DyIi_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI1C9DyIi_8

westoncb 10y ago

It seems like a lot of the benefits mentioned could arise from many other activities with similar likelihood. I think a lot of it has to do with developing expertise at something you believe is important, and which you are (or can become) comfortable doing. Totally agree that for people working in abstract technical areas (e.g. software architecture, philosophy, inventing things), however, mathematics has a special sort of value over other subjects. It deals in these super distilled concepts which have very general applicability; so, the concepts you learn end up expanding this pool you can draw from for coming up with new, related ideas, in a wide range of fields. It's also important to learn it as a sort of literacy, to widen the range of technical material you can read.

andrewflnr 10y ago

Su seems almost blind to the fact that you can do math outside an academic environment. You don't need to go to school for math to experience truth, beauty, play, etc in the context of math. You can read books, play around with the results, read articles on places like Quanta. You probably won't discover new things this way, but it will enrich your life. If your goal is for math to make people's lives better, then assuming school is involved at all is another unnecessary restriction.

drakenot 10y ago
Su opened his talk with the story of Christopher, an inmate serving a long sentence for armed robbery who had begun to teach himself math from textbooks he had ordered. After seven years in prison, during which he studied algebra, trigonometry, geometry and calculus, he wrote to Su asking for advice on how to continue his work. After Su told this story, he asked the packed ballroom at the Marriott Marquis, his voice breaking: “When you think of who does mathematics, do you think of Christopher?” It doesn't sound like he has that bias to me. He opens his talk speaking about someone who is a non-traditional student doing match outside an academic environment.
FabHK 10y ago
Many commenters here seem to be blind to that fact, but emphatically not Su.

sametmax 10y ago

The problem with this theory, is that it completely ignores that a lot of people good at math have poor people skills. And you need people to be happy and improve your life opportunities. So yeah, math is beautiful, and if you like it, go for it. But if you look for a skill to acquire or practice, your taste no withstanding, this may not be the best investment. Sport, social skills, languages, time management, self introspection and cooking are examples of things that usually pay off better than math in your life. It brings more people, opportunities, health, money, etc. Again, not saying math is not a good thing to practice. We need math as a specie. And an individual may need it for his or her happiness. But as a strategy I don't think so.

ekm2 10y ago
>a lot of people good at math have poor people skills All the more reason to open the floodgates so we can get the few people with both skillsets.
- sametmax 10y ago
  You won't achieve that by encouraging people at doing math, it's not attractive enough. Just like it's hard to sell vegetable to somebody eating chocolate. And I LOOOOVE vegetables. You can, however, achieve this by encouraging nerds to get people skills. Double benefit : - they will have an easier life - nerds will be less stigmatized, linked topics will so be more appealing and math more successful I agree though that putting more kids in contact with math sooner will help a lot. A lot of kids like maths if it's shown to them with passion before they are exposed to the social stereotype or nerdiness.
RandomInteger4 10y ago
Maybe people good at math are actually great at people skills and you're just repeating a bias spread by a banality driven media.
- ianai 10y ago
  In my experience, people are all equally bad at math. There are just people who have spent longer with the problem(s)/domain(s) and have developed a skill set around it. They start from the same beginnings, though. If you take them out of their usual 'watering hole' they go straight back to beginner status (and of course the degree of it varies by how far it is from their usual routine).

deleted 10y ago

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RA_Fisher 10y ago

Being math with different syntaxes, this is true for programming as well.

sn9 10y ago
That's certainly the contention of the authors of How to Design Programs. http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/part_preface.html http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/part_preface.htm...

norcimo5 10y ago

"To Live Your Best Life, Do +Applied+ Mathematics". There's something delightful about using mathematics as a mean to an end...

wallace_f 10y ago

When you're not good enough to do, teach. When you're not strong enough to lead, follow. This article is just a bunch of exuberance and politically correct speech.

EternalData 10y ago

I took this to be a general call to learn and practice mathematics, and not as a summons to a career in academia, so perhaps I'm seeing it a bit differently. I have to say as somebody who through attrition always feared math in university that it is meaningful to think about reasons why people fear embracing certain types of knowledge. It's only after the fact that I realize how useful and even how romantic applications of mathematics might be. I might never be a starry-eyed or an often-drunk academic, but I've grown to really see my initial lack of mathematical learning to be an immensely high opportunity cost. So I can relate to anybody who thinks of structural reasons people might shy away from math and indeed all forms of intimidating knowledge.

posterboy 10y ago
>how romantic applications of mathematics might be. like, in the dating market or do you mean a philosophical potential? The philosophical aspect is huge, eg. to tell once meant counting, or logic and language having a common Greek root.
- ihaveahadron 10y ago
  He means in the dating market, he's in love with math, women just aren't doing it for him.
- EternalData 10y ago
  I mean, I was thinking more of romance as "imbued with idealism", but if differential equations can help me find true love, even better.
ihaveahadron 10y ago
Get a girlfriend dude, you've been jerking it or something too long if you are calling math "romantic". I don't know how to put it, but something's wrong when people get emotional about math and science. Maybe your a homo, I don't know man figure it out, but don't call math romantic again stupidass.

katehall 10y ago

I would rather say "to live your best life, make art"

jwtadvice 10y ago

While I can not claim to have made any imporant progress on the sorts of toy problems I like to work on (e.g. counting/bounding the number of strings two regular expressions both accept, counting the number of ways to represent integers using polynomials), I find the mere process of working on them, inventing new notation to succinctly express ideas and read relevant (and completely irrelevant) mathematical textbooks and articles a way to keep an "active brain" but relax: probably because nobody expects me to produce anything and my career doesn't depend on it.

sillypuddy 10y ago

Frank Su is a great teacher. I had him in ~2000 Teaching Game theory at Cornell, and I still remember the Math Fun Facts he used to start the class.

KennyCason 10y ago

I was recently explaining to a group the radiance of learning math for many years. It is really hard to convey the beauty that you see in things after years of studying math/logic. That amazing feeling through your mind when you solve something new. I can sometimes only best describe it as a lens that allows you to sense a previously imperceivable part of the universe and self. I can't even imagine walking around without this lens. Perhaps that sounds a bit hyperbolic or mystical, but this is my feeling.

dgotrik 10y ago

Here's the video: https://www.facebook.com/maanews/videos/10154879169165419/ https://www.facebook.com/maanews/videos/10154879169165419/

n0mad01 10y ago

and also take your vitamin d.

losteverything 10y ago

Surprised no mention of music. <play, beauty, truth, justice and love. Math and music gives me all those. My Math inclination brings tears To binary situations and lasts (as in the last time I'll ....) Truth is a set. Justice is relativity (<,>,=) Play is math humor with the pun as king. And love is random uncontrolable feeling.

SZJX 10y ago

Well maths always sounds good with all its allure of "purity" and "intellect". However I think one should remember that maths is basically some very-high level abstractions on our analog, chaotic world. Just like rigid linguistics/grammatical rules fail miserably in representing actual human languages, abstract maths probably also cannot claim to represent the real essence of the world that well. Even a statistical/neural network-style approach does it so much better. So yeah, if you're so into constructing and deconstructing abstruse abstractions, maybe do maths very seriously. But does it really represent the "truth" of life? I think that might be a bit dubious.