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India's tech industry panics over U.S. plans to change high-skilled visas
- muninn_ 10y ago"Preference given to H1-Bs that pay the most". Sounds like a win for workers all around.
- tn13 10y agoWhat happens when the employers run a fake payroll to pay more money on paper but low in reality ?
- muninn_ 10y agoThen they get caught and fined I would imagine.
- seanmcdirmid 10y agoNot just fined, that would come under criminal law.
- cmdrfred 10y ago"Your honor clearly BigCorp offered me 150k, the H1B filing proves as much, but I have only received 40k."
- seanmcdirmid 10y agoFraud clearly is a criminal offense, which can be filed by a civil suit.
- LyndsySimon 10y agoThis seems irrelevant to me. What's stopping them from doing that today?
- sudhirj 10y agoThe Justice Department, I suppose? http://www.ndtv.com/indians-abroad/two-indian-americans-arrested-in-us-for-h1b-visa-fraud-1466742 http://www.ndtv.com/indians-abroad/two-indian-americans-arre...
- titomc 10y agoJust a drop in the ocean.
- tn13 10y agoThey are already doing it today. That is why HN or DHS has no clue about the extent of abuse. H1B comes with their wives who are on H4. Despite having a great career in India these women can not work. Eventually the stress breaks them and they approach consultancies who charge $8k per filing. To improve chances they even pay multiples of $8k to file multiple petitions. Once petition is approved they work for $30K year without any benefits, no paid leave, no insurance etc. while the payroll is run of $60K. Taxes are paid on $60K. These H4 women are very thankful for this exploitation because other option is to be a housewife. (thanks for standing up for women's right murica) Also, the hatred that Indian outsourcing cos get is totally unfair because eventually these companies are paid to do all this by American cos. Almost every large co out there in bay area is employing these people through outsourcing giants.
- seanmcdirmid 10y agoThat is called fraud, it is already illegal.
- virtuexru 10y agoIs "freaks out" really appropriate for a news piece title? Did a seventeen year old girl write this? Yikes.
- shankun 10y agoThis is the new CNN. On the positive side, at least they didn't use "has a cow".
- seanmcdirmid 10y agoIt is in the tech section. Tech writers tend to be younger and less traditional.
- dukeluke 10y agoNo, it's not appropriate, but it's what happens when an organization caters to the lowest common denominator for too long.
- w00tw00tw00t 10y agoa bit sexist/condescending here? you're implying s 17 year old boy wouldn't say that? why refer to gender?
- diN0bot 10y agoI don't mind critiques of language formality or effectiveness, etc, but no need to police or denigrate young women. Keep misogyny out of it.
- libria 10y agoAre you not the one dragging mysogyny into the conversation? There's nothing wrong with a 17 year old speaking in this fashion and GP didn't say there was. They only said journalists shouldn't. They also implied it's more commonly found among females. Again, only a comment on what they perceive; there's nothing illegal or unexpected with a 17 year old saying "like, omg, freaks out".
- tn13 10y agoOn the long term this will help Indians even more and various US businesses might be willing to outsource even more operations out of USA to India.
- dominotw 10y agoPeople have been saying this ever since late 90's. Is there any specific evidence that tighter visa rules result in more outsourcing?
- cloakandswagger 10y agoIt's about time. Say what you will about Trump's other policies, but it's high time someone took an ax to the H-1B program. The level of abuse I've witnessed from it over the years is heinous; foreign workers essentially working as indentured servants, with the only beneficiaries being corporations using their cheap labor and the foreign consultancy firms that farm them out. I'll be interested to see what changes get made to the program to move it back towards its intended purpose.
- forgetsusername 10y ago>Say what you will about Trump's other policies, but it's high time someone took an ax to the H-1B program. He's just getting started. I'm sure we'll see some doozies; hopefully nothing tragic. But let's not pretend that everything Trump does or will do is stupid or evil, and give him credit when appropriate.
- beachstartup 10y agothis culture of abusing your workers spills out into the US workforce as well. i've known people (us citizens) who have had to send lawyer letters to get their invoices paid by these consultancy firms, who aren't used to getting pushback from their servants. sometimes in the tens of thousands of dollars for high end work. of course the bad behavior stops immediately when they get a nice little letter with an american law firm's name at the top of it. they're scumbags.
- nulldevz 10y agoYeah ... these measures don't really address the underlying issue of scumbag executives. They're just going to find another way to pay for cheap labor, e.g., shifting revenue to countries with cheap labor. This move may actually expedite a major shift of software engineering to other countries. In turn, it could help improve other countries' infrastructure creating a positive feedback loop for outsourcing. Unintended consequences caused by government regulation.
- coredog64 10y ago
- sudhirj 10y agoHeh. Depends on which part of India you're referring to. The younger me would have found it more difficult to get foreign assignments that form the foundation for a lot of the house buying and marriage making here, but I think the slightly more experienced folks like present me welcome the change - that is the low end of the salary range I'd expect if I was going to jump countries with a family, and now I don't have to compete in a lottery with tens of thousands of fresh graduates wanting onsite assignments. The bodyshops like TCS, CTS and Infy will suffer, though. Their exorbitant margins on shipping obedient and freshfaced barely-post-teenagers off to projects where they're mostly expected to punch the clock and do bits and pieces of what the Architect says / tech support are over. They'll survive, though - the Leads, Pricipals and Architects will just have to travel up and down a bit more. I expect they'll lay off a lot of people, though. And the long tail of salaries here will likely go down. But if there is an increase in off-site outsourcing, it'll balance things out. They'll just staff more people at the home base and freeze salary hikes citing this. Dowries will also likely go down. There's going to be a sudden dearth of grooms with the cachet of foreign work experience and a cache of saved dollars. It's also possible that if this sticks a lot of the shady engineering colleges that have sprung up here like weeds will see reduced demand. Entry fees at medical colleges will probably spike.
- tootie 10y agoThese Indian body shops are the bane of my existence but I know a bunch of H1B holders that were FTEs and I would be horrified to lose them. I don't know what they get paid, but I know it's below the rate for non-Visa holders. If you're an architect in NYC (which a bunch of them are) they probably top the $130K margin, but a bunch definitely won't.
- X86BSD 10y agoGood, CTS is an appalling sweatshop of a company and should be barred from working in the US.
- eklavya 10y agoJust how big do you think the Indian IT outsourcing industry is in the big Indian picture? I wouldn't be so sure to predict wholesale social and economic changes :D
- sandGorgon 10y agonobody is freaking out. Infosys and TCS are NOT India's representative companies anymore. They are the Flipkarts and the Olacabs and Paytms now. Or even Freshdesk, Zoho and Helpshift. I think most people welcome the move - we have lost many good potential employees who were headhunted by outsourcing companies by showing them the American dream and then chained to the yoke in some dreadful job. The services business is not going to be affected that much - most of the work was happening onshore in India anyway. This is a delta of a billion dollars at worst. In the long run, this is going to be much better for both economies.
- sudhirj 10y agoThis will be nice for the product companies, but expect salaries to go down a bit all around - all the (few) good programmers at the consulting companies no longer have their primary incentive to stay there - if they can't earn dollars any more they will start looking to the higher base salaries perks at the product companies. More competition will probably drive rates down.
- bruceb 10y agoInfosys has market cap 34b, Flipkart valuation is tumbling and now at 5b. While not as cool as startups, Infosys and TCS are still much bigger and more stable companies.
- sandGorgon 10y agoby that measure all other startups suck and only microsoft or yahoo/alibaba is worth anything. I'm talking about aspirational reach - a H1B+TCS is not aspirational anymore.
- bruceb 10y agoNo one is saying startup suck. you said: Infosys and TCS are NOT India's representative companies anymore. More executives in the US and Europe probably know the big firms than the startups. Clearly they are representative. Do younger engineers aspire to join Flipkart more than Infy, probably but that doesn't make it representative to others.
- univalent 10y agoThis is actually a good step. Eliminate cost arbitrage as motive for hiring foreign workers. Hire to fill genuine gaps in the labor pool. I don't see any downside and I'm an Indian in the US.
- laughingman2 10y agoI have 2 years exp in medium sized product company (which has global market) in India. I have developed iOS apps, react app, web app in django (basically full stack). have experience in python, java, javascript and swift. I applied for few good colleges (UCSD, UT Austin, Carnige Mellon, GATech, Arizona state) to specialize in Machine Learning in US. Should I change my plans (I have to spend anywhere from 40-90 lakh RS to get MS in these colleges), is 130,000 $ too high for guy with my profile to work in a good product based or research oriented companies in US after graduating?
- titomc 10y agoex-H1B here, You have good skills, once you graduate, you will have to depend on your luck to get into the H1B system currently. Why don't you get MS from good universities in Canada and enter the express entry immigration system which values your skills unlike H1B system which depends on luck ?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- klipt 10y agoYeah Canada seems like a safer place for foreigners right now. US visas and even green cards are no longer worth as much because Trump has demonstrated he is willing to invalidate them at his whim. Trump just now barred from entry (effectively deported) all visa holders (including H1-Bs) from 7 Muslim countries who happened to be outside the US for vacation when his Executive Order hit. He also tried to do the same to green card holders (but the courts stood up to him so he backpedaled).
- bdcravens 10y ago
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- titomc 10y agoex-H1B Indian here, now permanent resident of Canada. Left US for good, because I was being exploited by tech firms taking advantage of my H1B status. This is a welcome change in my opinion. H1B workers were exploited by the Indian body shops as well as American employers. Raising the minimum wages will prune the bad apples and make H1B a visa system for the truly skilled candidates. Quirks: 1. Find & shutdown fake employers running fake payrolls to match the increased wages. A search for *consulting.com will bring up many 'one-room' body shops in the US. 2. Stop the lottery process and award visa to truly skilled candidates who can provide proofs for their skills. 3. H1B LCA process should be changed and made similar to the PERM process, so that it will be a true test of the market. 4. Giving preference to Master degree holders is not a good idea, having a Masters degree from an American University is not an indicator for "highly skilled". Most of the students from India obtain these Masters degree just for the purpose of getting an OPT visa to improve their chances of getting selected in the lottery for H1B. Many of these 'master' degree holders show fake experiences & do 'proxy' interviews to get into companies. These fake experiences are backed up by experience letters from bogus companies setup for this purpose from India. Many of them also provide 'bonus' services like proxy candidate interview services on Skype. 5. Stop 'future GC'. Many body shops in US do this by taking a huge deposit from the candidates for their 'future GC services'.
- chrisbennet 10y agoWhat is "future GC"? I googled it with success. Thanks.
- chrisbennet 10y agoI meant without success...
- guard-of-terra 10y agoI imagine that's Green Card.
- 10y ago
- rurban 10y ago130k is indeed too high. To fight the most egregious abusers 100k would have been enough. Not everybody works in Silicon Valley IT, and even there the indian bodyshops offered only <50K for the H1-B abusers. Many other industries rely on foreign talent, and many cannot pay 130k, but 100k would be fine IMHO.
- geebee 10y agoHonestly, I don't think it's too high at all. If you view the H1B the way it was sold to the US public - as a visa to get very high talent people who can't be found in adequate numbers among the existing US workforce - 130k honestly sounds low to me. Keep in mind, a family of 4 in San Francisco that earns 130k a year (family income) qualifies for direct housing subsidies. Many of these visas will be allocated to SF/valley based companies. Yeah, most middle class families are two income now, but keep in mind, we're talking about a worker that is supposedly so valuable and in such critical shortage that we need to do an end run around the normal immigration system and empower employers to directly hire someone from overseas. We're talking about someone who can't be found among the 300 million existing US citizens or the 1.2 million new immigrants who come here annually outside of work visa programs. Seriously, you can't afford to pay that worker $130k a year, in the most expensive city in the United States? Sounds like this position isn't quite as critical, or as hard to fill, as you're claiming.
- horshod 10y agoBut that's the most important issue here I think. This might be appropriate, at the most, for SFO and possibly NYC. But what about the rest of the country where the cost of living is much lower? I (an Indian H1B holder) worked in WI, where I made 73K as a fresher and was able to have a nice apartment and a good life in general and save half of my salary. I think, while the current 60K minimum pay may be too low, 130K is too high for most of the country. 100K might be more practical. Even better would be a process which takes the local cost of living into account, instead of an absolute minimum (which might get too complicated, I guess).
- 10y ago
- RestlessMind 10y agoAs an Indian who spent a lot of years on H1-B visa, I welcome this move. Though while talking about this subject, one should bear in mind that "Indians on H1-B" are not a homogeneous group. There are those, employed by the likes of AmaGooFaceSoft / Unicorns or graduating from mid-top tier universities, who will benefit by the proposed changes and who were indeed the "target audience" in mind when H1-B was linked to "getting high skilled immigrants in the US". Then there are those who are transferred here in bulk by TCS/Wipro/Infosys/TechMahindra, who are paid the minimum H1-B wage possible, who jump from client to client across different states every now and then (true first hand accounts of my close friends) - these people are still mostly happy (cannot generalize though) to have the opportunity to work in the US for a few years and save, considering Indian salaries back home. While the individuals in this category might be getting a better deal, overall they become a pawn in "gaming of H1-B system" by Indian outsourcing companies. Auctioning H1-B visas based on salary is a step in generally right direction. It may hurt low-paying industries relying on H1-B, but we can assess the impact on them and implement targeted fixes later if needed.
- gmarx 10y agoI've never understood why it is okay for outsourcing companies to "own" HIB visa people. A colleague told me long ago that it was like indentured servitude unless/until you could escape to a regular company that was willing to sponsor.
- CodeSheikh 10y agoImagine living under the fear that your visa can be canceled the next business day and you have to leave US soon before you have enough time to make alternative plans. Especially when you are a newcomer in the USA, a overwhelmingly unknown land. If this happens, then you have I believe 30 days to find another company who is willing to sponsor you and then you have to go back to India to reapply for another H1-B visa with new employer. Also, your outsourcing company keep a close eye on you in terms of if you are job hunting, in some s=cases there is some sort of collateral kept backhome as well. Also, if you are an average skilled employee then you don't have much leverage to jump ships.
- 10y ago
- throw345hn 10y agoI actually think this will result in accelerating India's growth in the tech sector. There might be slight downturn in the shorter term for the services sector but this will be compensated by the product companies. Once the above happens, I actually think it will have a net negative effect for the US tech sector. Yes you can still find the best engineers to come to the US, however once salaries start rising in the developing countries, people will not want to flock to the US. A clear example is the aviation sector. Pilots from the developed countries flock to fly for the airlines in the Middle east and Asia. Look at Emirates, Etihad, Air Asia etc. Many of them are expat pilots.
- DamnYuppie 10y agoThis is because of the seniority system put in place by the unions. They pilots fly over seas as there are not a lot of jobs at major airlines flying the big planes domestically.
- throw345hn 10y agoYes there are not a lot of jobs because the airline sector doesn't have much growth in the US. Compare that with the the economies of developing countries, they are growing rapidly. Another example from India is Indigo (which is a major domestic airline) recently ordered close to 200 A320 airplanes which a massive bet on growth. I would think the same thing will happen to the tech sector in the longer term where the demand and growth will go to Asia.
- Lord_Yoda 10y agoTrying to play a devil's advocate, I might be downvoted here right away. Disclosure: I am not going to be affected by this, but I do work in tech industry. 1. With the decline of low-wage tech workers, where do you think the mundane/non-value added work they do will go? Not everything will/can be outsourced, and you don't want to your USD 130K employee to do that. There is a real scarcity of tech skilled workers in the US. This may be filled gradually in the future, but in the short-term, there will be some consequences. 2. This will affect small companies, non-SF/NYC/Seattle area start-ups, and companies, non-tech companies. Not everyone can pay this salary. These businesses are not going out of their way to pay for H1Bs. I may be wrong, and that's why I have a genuine question. Is there a credible research about the loss of jobs due to H1B and it is not just an availability heuristic? I agree that outsourcing causes loss of local jobs, but that is not what this is trying to solve.
- brightball 10y agoNot sure exactly about loss of jobs, but I do remember this Oracle story making the rounds: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-10/ex-oracle-manager-claims-firing-over-indian-s-pay-offer https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-10/ex-oracle...
- Lord_Yoda 10y agoThanks, but I think that classifies under discriminatory practice. Not exactly an immigration issue.
- brightball 10y agoTrue. Posted as reference to the pay grade perceptions around H-1Bs.
- r00fus 10y agoIt's related to both Oracle's investigation by the Labor Dept. and H1Bs in general.
- bdcravens 10y ago
- known 10y agoIndian IT firms are making money by selling software engineers, not software to US;
- transfire 10y agoConsidering that foreign counties are providing free tuition to qualifying students and then sending them here to get better paying jobs, I can only be supportive. Although, in the long run I'd prefer to see tuition be free at public schools here as well. We seem to have gotten things all around ass backwards these days. We get high-end candidates from Asia and low-end candidates from Mexico, so Americans are being squeezed on both ends.
- klipt 10y agoNo such thing as "free tuition", it's just paid through taxes instead of through student fees.
- webwanderings 10y agoCNN now uses words like "freak out" for their headlines? Amazing.
- codesternews 10y agoI think it will affect US more in negative way. I may be wrong but it's my perspective. The companies will do more outsourcing and the companies like TCS, Infy will not bring people in US. We are living in communication age and their is nothing can be done remotely. So why I need to pay double when I can do same work with 1/4 of salary.Many captive companies already sending less people to US. In other words US will get less talent and less benefit of talented engineers from India, China. More and more work go outside the more loss of US.
- mzs 10y agohere's the actual draft of the executive order: https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7872567/Protecting_American_Jobs_and_Workers_by_Strengthening_the_Integrity_of_Foreign_Worker_Visa_Programs.0.pdf https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7872567/P...
- neil1023 10y ago130K is far too high in my opinion. Maybe that would be reasonable in Silicon Valley but nowhere else. This policy should account for the cost of living of where the businesses are located. A large amount of businesses will not be able to afford employees at that proposed salary - even the if the potential employees are highly skilled.
- vkat 10y agoI used to work in mid-west tech and 130k was something a development manager would get which was was 4 levels above an entry level engineer.
- ChrisBland 10y agoI'm not sure I understand the outrage from India. If you look at their standards to receive a visa to work there: The applicant should be a highly skilled and/or qualified professional being engaged or appointed by a company or organization or industry or undertaking in India on contract or an employment basis at a senior level, skilled position such as technical expert, senior executive, or in a managerial position, etc. There should not be a qualified Indian available to do the job that the visa holder would be performing. The employee's salary must be in excess of U.S. $25,000 per year (seems small until you put it in perspective: $3,168 is the average household income in India.) Meaning it is almost 8x avg household income for a salary requirement in India. If you equate that to the us average household income of $51,939, the H1B should be at $402,000 here
- known 10y agoZero-sum for Indian IT firms https://qz.com/899306/will-the-h-1b-be-worth-it-for-indian-it-firms-if-the-us-overhauls-its-work-visa-programs/ https://qz.com/899306/will-the-h-1b-be-worth-it-for-indian-i...