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Trial Balloon for a Coup?
- gingerbread-man 10y agoNot real journalism! This shouldn't be on the front page-- it's full of unsubstantiated accusations and questionable interpretations of fact. The Trump administration's actions over the past few days are horrifying enough-- editorial catastrophization serves no purpose here.
- aasarava 10y agoIt doesn't claim to be "journalism." This was published on Medium, which is pretty clearly for essays and opinions. I'll grant you that some of the speculation is pretty far out there (like the Rosneft sale being tied to Trump). But the author is trying to put together a cohesive theory that might explain the chaotic moves being taken by the new US executive branch. If you want to disagree with the theory, point out where it's faulty. But claiming it's "not real journalism" is a non sequitur -- it was never intended to be a reporting of the facts.
- DougN7 10y agoI read the article and don't know enough facts to know how accurate and truthful it might be. However, what if you saw a Hitler-like person taking power? Surely it would be much harder today given the level of communication we have today?
- maxerickson 10y agoHitler took power (in part) by using radio and television to broadcast his message. It wasn't particularly sneaky.
- zardo 10y agoThe formula is pretty simple. "All good patriots are with me. Show yourself to be a good patriot by reporting enemy talk. When I'm in power, I will punish my enemies."
- flukus 10y agoThis has been employed by both sides lately. How many threads were there on not doing business with Peter Thiel?
- AnimalMuppet 10y agoTwitter might be the up-to-date equivalent. Trump uses it better (more effectively for his purposes) than any other politician. In particular, his opponents don't respond in tweets, and so they are stuck with the speed of the regular news cycle - hours, not minutes. So Trump is always ahead of them.
- Mikeb85 10y agoThe <insert Republican president> is Hitler thing is getting old... Also, not real journalism.
- grzm 10y agoSo is complaining about it in a context where that claim is not being made. As your comment is top-level, I understand it to be addressed to the submitted article. There's no claim like that in the text of the post, nor is it filled with hyperbolic claims. It's pretty calm and lays out its argument pretty rationally. If you bring this up metaphorically, it's not adding the the discussion, as this really requires more nuanced debate rather than general remarks.
- Mikeb85 10y agoThe idea that a democratically elected government is testing the waters and attempting to stage a coup d'état is a pretty obvious allusion to Hitler's rise to power. It's pretty plain to see, especially given a few of the links in the article, including another of the author's own...
- grzm 10y agoInteresting interpretation, and one that I think you should have included rather than the comment you did. One of the complaints all around right now is that people aren't speaking clearly with one another. Yet, you've really done it again, by alluding to "a few of the links in the article, including another of the author's own..." when to be clear you could have quoted and linked to the source. I know that I personally would have benefitted from the contribution. We should be helping each other understand. If your intent isn't to discuss these issues substantially, please don't add to the noise with allusions and implications. There's enough stuff to wade through as it is.
- Mikeb85 10y agoHere. First link, from near the top: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/29/us/politics/reince-preibus-holocaust-remembrance-day.html?referer=https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5 https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/29/us/politics/reince-pre... An article nitpicking about a failure to specifically include the word Jew when talking about the Holocaust, even though it was an event that everyone knows targeted the Jews. Included is a quote by Tim Kaine trying to equate it with Holocaust denial. Especially interesting given Bibi Netanyahu seems to be a Trump fan. Link from the end of the article, what I was alluding to: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/what-things-going-wrong-can-look-like-400f84a0cc3a#.unvsapfpl https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/what-things-going-wrong-ca... And here's a quote from the author, contained in this article: "I’m reading this as “1933 playbook continues on schedule" Edit - should also add, my original comment was intentionally flippant given the submission isn't real journalism (it's not, it's a blog), and the topic has been beaten like a dead horse.
- ygmelnikova 10y agoNow back to our regular scheduled program.
- Daishiman 10y agoThis should be upvoted way higher. The US Executive's power is being taken over y a small cabal of extremists and kleptocrats. There is extensive history on this type of takeover.
- maxerickson 10y agoUS executive power is vested in a single individual to begin with. The issue is whether they are following the law or not. (Advice and consent of the Senate for cabinet positions isn't meaningless, but they instruct the executive by statute not by directives given to cabinet members)
- Daishiman 10y agoThe Executive has already made the DHS disobey a court order. If that's not a Constitutional Crisis I don't know what it. This is literally a textbook example of how autocrats take over. It has happened before and all the rules for that game are being played out right now.
- LyndsySimon 10y agoThis is not new. It's interesting to note that Trump has placed a portrait of Andrew Jackson in the Oval Office, as there are many parallels between Trump's rise to power and Jackson's. > In a popular quotation that is believed to be apocryphal, President Andrew Jackson reportedly responded: "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!" This derives from Jackson's comments on the case in a letter to John Coffee, "...the decision of the Supreme Court has fell still born, and they find that they cannot coerce Georgia to yield to its mandate". source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia#Effects A President wielding Presidential authority is not a coup, it's acting within the authority given to the office via the Constitution and Congress. If you believe the President has too much power then I would urge you to be doing all you can to limit the power of the office, not just change who is in it.
- 10y ago
- zellyn 10y agoAlthough this reads a little hyperbolically, Yonatan is generally a pretty good source of information.
- kafkaesq 10y agoIt's not a "trial balloon" for a coup. It is form of a coup, albeit of a softer, slower-moving sort. For as long as people agree to go along with it, that is.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y agoDuring the Nuremberg Trials, former Nazi officers claimed that they were merely "following orders." CBP officials, meanwhile, are ignoring the law and the independent judiciary itself. How is this not treason?
- Manishearth 10y agoNot 100% sure of this, but I suspect they don't take orders from the judiciary, rather their superiors, which are part of the executive branch. So it's possible that their superiors haven't changed the orders or are doubling-down. Now, that is _illegal_ of course, and morally reprehensible, but they could still be construed to be "following orders".
- LyndsySimon 10y agoLet me scare you a bit further, then - it is entirely within Trump's power to order Executive Branch employees to enforce whatever orders he enacts, then preemptively pardon them from any potentially criminal acts that arise from doing so.
- itsdrewmiller 10y agoI don't think this is correct - the pardon authority only applies to acts that have already been committed, as far as I can tell. He could maybe keep pardoning everyone every day for crimes they committed on the previous day. Would make an interesting paragraph in a dystopian novel.
- LyndsySimon 10y agoArticle 2, Section 2: [...] "he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment." It looks to me like he has the ability. As you said, even if he doesn't, he can still make it happen as long as he's in office.
- rolux 10y ago
- avryhof 10y agoThis was a fun read. It's almost a good foundation for a best seller. I liked Gorbachev's theory, too: http://time.com/4645442/gorbachev-putin-trump/ http://time.com/4645442/gorbachev-putin-trump/
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- dragonwriter 10y agoDeliberate action contrary to valid and binding law by the executive is, itself, a coup (specifically, an instance of the form known as a self-coup or autocoup); so it's not a trial balloon. OTOH, while actions which arguably (or even fairly clearly) cross that line have occurred in many recent US presidencies, the author here is right to raise the issue that the acts the article highlights suggest that the present violations are likely to be the leading edge of a self-coup of unprecedented magnitude in the US.
- ryanswapp 10y agoI found this earlier today which I think gives a much fairer characterization of the recent executive orders. http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/are-we-going-to-freak-out-every-time-trump-does-what-he-promised/ http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/are-we-going-to... The type of fearmongering and conspiracy theory generation in this article reminds me of conservatives during Obama's presidency.
- MollyR 10y agoThis reads like a conspiracy theory I'd find on Info Wars. I really dislike the term trump derangement syndrome, but every day its becoming a better descriptor. We need to be better than this. Trump's very election is a coup against the establishment, and so was Bernie Sanders impressive campaign in the primary. Trump's win, and Bernie's Rise make it clear, that Americans are done with business as usual politics. We all need to be dealing with this new reality instead of running to conspiracy theories.
- kmos17 10y agoI agree, the whole process and reversal of the order for green card holders reads a lot more like the result of a disorganized administration that is rushing in, with a very small team acting like a bunch of teenagers who just got a hold of the ferrari's keys. It most likely will get a lot worse, so conspiracy theories run the risk of crying wolf too often for nothing when the real danger is barreling down the road.
- hockeybias 10y agoAgreed.
- tptacek 10y agoThese are false equivalences. Alex Jones at InfoWars believes that Clinton and Obama are literally agents of satan, of literal supernatural evil. He's so over-the-top that his videos have become meme fodder. Obama joked about them on the stump (Jones claims that Obama left an odor of sulfur because of his demonic affiliations), and everyone in the audience knew what he meant. Meanwhile, we're just a few days into this administration and it has already enacted a Muslim ban (complete with an escape hatch for Christians from Muslim countries) that operates in open defiance of federal courts --- Trump has precipitated a Constitutional crisis in how the US Marshal Service, which serves the courts but formally reports to the Executive Branch, will carry out its orders. A convenient way to dismiss an argument is to attempt to tie it clownish morons like Alex Jones. But to accomplish that, you'll have to support your argument with evidence. What supernatural powers does this post suggest compel Trump to violate the federal courts?
- superplussed 10y agoThis all reads true to me, what is arguable here?
- LyndsySimon 10y agoThe central premise? If Trump wanted to take over the US government, this is not at all the way he'd go about it.
- ap3 10y agoAnd you know this because....?
- LyndsySimon 10y agoAn executive order on immigration, while arbitrary, follows established precedent. The inclusion of existing visa and permanent residency holders was designed to stoke the fires of the media and of the left. Trump has a whole stack of things he wants to accomplish, and he's tiring out his primary opposition while simultaneously virtue-signaling to his base. If he were wanting to instigate a coup he'd be quietly placing people beholden to him into positions of power, driving wedges between the internal divisions of his opposition, and solidifying the ground he's already taken. Trump is nimble. He understands what's going to incite those who speak out against him, and he uses that knowledge to set them up for failure. He did this throughout the campaign and he's doing it now. You're supposed to be upset about the immigration EO. You're supposed to be upset about his SCOTUS nominee that he's promised tomorrow. You're supposed to be upset about the next thing he does. Trump is ridiculing his opposition, and so many people live in their own personal echo chambers that they aren't even noticing.
- maxerickson 10y agoHe understands what's going to incite those who speak out against him, and he uses that knowledge to set them up for failure. He did this throughout the campaign and he's doing it now. You're supposed to be upset about the immigration EO. That the disruptiveness of the immigration EO was intentional is not exactly hard to suss out. I don't understand what failure it sets anyone up for though. I mean, it's the administration that is walking back the order (Kelly's statement about lawful permanent resident status being dispositive). The protests made a powerful statement to people in other countries.
- sctb 10y agoSince this has been submitted several times and flagkilled on each occasion, we've turned the flags off on this one to host the discussion.
- synicalx 10y agoHe's running it like a business, this looks like just about every merger I've ever been stuck in the middle of. Not entirely surprising given his background, surely?