39 ms·

Spin wants to bring dock-less bike sharing to the US

85 points by yurisagalov 10y ago

newy 10y ago
Hello HN! I'm Euwyn, one of the co-founders of Spin (also, 2x YC alum). We're excited about bringing the dock-less bikeshare model to our home city of SF. I've lived in SOMA for years, and have always wanted to bike around, except: (a) it was always a hassle to deal with a bike after going around town, because I would inevitably end up Uber-ing somewhere after my first stop and (b) my bikes would get stolen :( Would love to hear any questions you guys had about the business, and look forward to you guys riding our bikes soon. ps. If you want to follow along or have any questions about Spin or startups in general, I'm 'euwyn' on Whale and Snapchat.
- MK999 10y ago
  Say a bike does get stolen, then you'd need to contact the police, but maybe the police are busy and don't actually care, that's the pain point that I see, maybe its a baseless concern.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    As far as I know, it's far from a baseless concern. Paris, for example, lost 9000 bikes just in a year. Relying on the police seems folly, they probably just have to make a good estimate and price-in the replacements into their business model.
- stevenrace 10y ago
  What are you using for for networking/on board computing? The article mentions 2G is used in China - however here in the US such services are being depricated [1]. [1] https://www.att.com/esupport/article.html#!/wireless/KM1084805 https://www.att.com/esupport/article.html#!/wireless/KM10848...
  - dko 10y ago
    Hey stevenrace, I'm Derrick, one of the co-founders of Spin. Given our roots in the US, we're building our bikes for the local market, and use different tech than the Chinese companies, for example, FCC-compliant devices or networks that are available in the US (3G and newer).
    - openfuture 10y ago
      This is a completely empty statement. Since you are one of the co-founders you should be able to spend at least some effort on answering the actual question or explain why you would chose not to do so.
- putsteadywere 10y ago
  I love my local bikeshare and dock-less would be a huge improvement. I've never noticed theft, and while there was some initial vandalism it never impacted our experience. My local program allows us to check out 4 bikes at a time, per account. Last summer, my partner and I would check out 8 bikes and go out on the town with friends. The ability to share my bikeshare with my friends allows me to ride a lot more - it sucks to be in the mood to go for a ride and be hanging out with people who don't have bikes.
  - dko 10y ago
    Thanks for the support! Making biking more accessible for everyone is one of our goals with Spin. Where are you based, and what's your local program? PS. This is Derrick, one of the co-founders of Spin :D
    - putsteadywere 10y ago
      Portland Oregon's "Niketown" program
- cturitzin 10y ago
  How do you deal with bike rebalancing?
  - dko 10y ago
    We've a few tricks up our sleeves here to make it effective and affordable for us.
    - jackcarter 10y ago
      Dynamic pricing to incentivize trips that bring bikes back to high-demand origin points?
  - _rpd 10y ago
    This is key, otherwise a bike being available at the right time just becomes too rare. Also, getting sign-off & GPS to work reliably in urban environments - it is super frustrating paying by the minute and being unable to stop the clock - or being directed to a bike location and finding nothing there.
- gthtjtkt 10y ago
  > (b) my bikes would get stolen This is why I don't ride a bike in Philadelphia. I don't know anyone here who rides a bike and hasn't had it stolen at least once. The only way to guarantee your bike isn't stolen is to bring it inside, which isn't an option at most workplaces. And even if it was an option it's a huge hassle.
  - stdbrouw 10y ago
    Alternatively, buy a cheaper bike. Most folks in Belgium and the Netherlands use bikes that are 50-100 euro, so if your bike gets stolen every couple of years it's not that big of a deal.
    - 234dd57d2c8db 10y ago
      Stolen once a year is unrealistic in Philidelphia. Also then you just ride a crappy bike around the whole time. Hardly a solution imo.
    - mikekchar 10y ago
      When I was working in London, I was always worried about having my bike stolen if I rode to work. Just before I moved back to Japan I started doing the math. My train fare was 18 GBP per day to go a grand total of 30 km each way (22 km as the crow flies). 18 GBP * 5 = 90 GBP per week. As long as I got my bike stolen less than once a month, I could have had a reasonably decent commuter bike and still come out ahead :-P By the time I realised it, I wasn't in good enough shape to ride 60 km a day and I was just about to leave anyway.
      - closeparen 10y ago
        Even at 20mph, that's nearly 2 hours a day. What an insane amount of commute time.
        gideonparanoid 10y ago
        It can be enjoyable though. You'll save time in other areas too - will be more awake, won't need to do cardio exercise at the gym etc.
mgberlin 10y ago
Your bikes are going to be stolen, stripped, and scrapped.
- alexandercrohde 10y ago
  Though I don't agree with how you're saying what you're saying, I am curious how this issue is planning to be addressed. As a SF resident, let's say I took a bike home to hayes valley. I'd say there's a 90% chance your bike will get stripped/stolen each night (assuming it's locked well with a good lock) in this area. Would I be liable for this as a user? Also I can't imagine this would be profitable if there isn't a revolutionary change in theft-prevention. Perhaps it's the GPS component will help discourage thieves?
  - MK999 10y ago
    Maybe somebody could make a business out of bicycle parking.
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    Gps helps and then I think its mostly down to design. The lock has to be so integrated that breaking it leaves the bike unusable, and wheels, saddles etc has to be non-standard so no one could use or sell a wheel or other part from one of the bikes. Also the bikes have to be recognizable in geometry so that it's very obvious to any buyer if a re-painted stolen one is sold. Stealing and stripping bikes has only 4 reasons 1) selling it 2) selling parts 3) transportation 4) vandalism. Vandalism is almost impossible to prevent. The other 3 should be preventable by good (and well-known) design. For the bikes to be well known enough you need a large exposure. You can't have just e.g 1000 bikes in SF.
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    Why is crime so horrible in SF?
    - alexandercrohde 10y ago
      What do you mean? We don't have any criminals here, we only have "victims" who are undereducated and "rebalancing privilege" when they sell your $1,000 bike for $50 bucks so they can buy a handle.
RandomMaker 10y ago
This is a fantastic idea! Can't wait for it to go live :)
- dko 10y ago
  Thanks for your support! Which city are you in? (And do sign up at https://spin.pm https://spin.pm)
begotles123 10y ago
this looks amazing!
cjbenedikt 10y ago
Has worked in Germany for years. Sponsored by Deutsche Bahn.
- johansch 10y ago
  More details?
  - Xylakant 10y ago
    The DB has a bike-sharing offer (Call-a-Bike) as well as a car sharing offer (Flinkster). Call-a-Bike used to be free-floating in a lot of locations, among them Cologne and Berlin, but that changed to a station/dock based system a few years ago. It's supposed to be changing back to free-floating again, at least in Berlin. The bikes all have a distinct build and color and a Box with a simple touch display and a lock. Even before smartphones you could just text a number and it would send an unlock code. To drop the bike off you'd lock it and call an automated system to give it the displayed confirmation code. That was actually pretty nifty, I liked and used it a lot. The CCC did a tear down of one of the bikes https://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike https://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike
    - philfrasty 10y ago
      Definitely free-floating over here in Munich.
Eridrus 10y ago
This reminds me of the April fools video Google put out about self-driving bikes. It would be neat if self-driving bikes could go to where they were needed.
- amenghra 10y ago
  Self driving tricycles?
colept 10y ago
How is this better than docking stations? I tried bike sharing and gave it up because the bikes were poorly maintained and replaced with cheaper bikes (thanks Citibike). Bikes fail, sometimes missing brakes, other times a flat tire. Why are docking stations important? Because a couple times a week I notice the company pull up with a trailer and maintain the bikes. They swap out the broken ones and fill the stations. Is Spin going to drive around the city tracking individual bikes to replace them?
- chris_7 10y ago
  The new Citibikes are much better (well, lighter, at least, at you definitely notice that on a bridge incline) than the old ones though?
  - colept 10y ago
    Sure they're lighter, but the old ones were resilient and didn't fall apart as easily.
- Hondor 10y ago
  Perhaps if a bike is unused for a long time, or repeatedly gets returned immediately after borrowing it, they assume it's broken and pull it out for servicing. Not having docks, they wouldn't need to put the replacement bikes back at the same location or time and that could be done in cheaper batches.
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- edavison1 10y ago
  I've been Citibiking since nearly the start and I prefer the new models. Sometimes the brakes are bad, true, but I never pick one with a flat tire (of course checking before I take it out) and I have to say I have gotten tremendous utility from my membership. Sucks to see someone who didn't like it. I think your last point is pretty devastating and I don't see dockless bike sharing ever reaching the grand scale of something like Citibike.
dsr_ 10y ago
The problem I've always had: what I want from a bikeshare is to be able to exit the train station, grab a bike, bike the remaining kilometer or two to work and drop the bike. Later in the day I want to do the same in reverse. That only works in a hub program if there's a dock next to my office building. (You can count on a dock being next to the train station.) Or I could pay for all-day rental of the bike, when I'm only using it for two ten-minute periods. In a dockless system, does it actually get any better for my use case?
- benatkin 10y ago
  I also wouldn't be satisfied with solid tires.
  - nradov 10y ago
    Are solid tires really so bad if you're only going a few miles on asphalt at a moderate speed? Seems better than risking a flat or under inflated tire. If they have to send bike mechanics to change and inflate tubes all the time it kind of kills the economics of bike sharing.
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      Are they solid, or spongey? Solid rubber would be quite heavy, and most riders wouldn't like the rotational inertia.
      - Taniwha 10y ago
        they are actually full of holes look closely at the closest orange tire in this pic http://d3nd7i493f0o21.cloudfront.net/assets/resized/img/bikes-0-600-0-800.jpg http://d3nd7i493f0o21.cloudfront.net/assets/resized/img/bike...
    - sidlls 10y ago
      I stopped using the Bay Area Bike Share bikes and just bought my own commuter bike for a couple hundred bucks. The lighter frame and narrow tires have improved the biking part of my commute so much. The difference is just astounding. It could be a big difference.
vcarl 10y ago
Hey, I tried to do this! I was CTO of a little student startup called A2B Bikeshare for a while. We called it "stationless" though :) We got a prototype working with a custom Android device with touch, 3g, GPS, and built in credit card swiper in Lansing MI, but ultimately we b it off more than we could chew. The team collapsed in mid 2015, and the company was just recently completely shuttered. It's validating to see a more skilled team put together a solid product, but damn it would have been fun to be that team haha. Best of luck!
- rckclmbr 10y ago
  I love this comment, thanks for sharing it. And next time, you'll be the "more skilled person".
- teh_klev 10y ago
  > It's validating to see a more skilled team put together a solid product Don't put yourself down. It looks like the founders are reasonably well financed, probably well connected, and of course the Bay area effect.
  - vcarl 10y ago
    No, I was in my early twenties, didn't know how to scope a project, didn't know how to effectively push back on scope creep, and didn't really have the technical chops for what we were attempting. I learned a ton and wouldn't make the same mistakes again, but none of us had any prior startup experience. These guys have a lot of startup experience, and being well connected is being skilled at networking. I'm not being self deprecating, this team is objectively more experienced than we were.
- mac01021 10y ago
  What part of making a solid product did you fail at (if you don't mind sharing)?
  - vcarl 10y ago
    Turns out hardware is hard. My view of it is scope creep that caused delays in starting environmental testing, ultimately leaving us with too little time to properly address the problems that we discovered. We tried to use 3d printed cases for the prototype units, but it turns out 3d printed material (at least the type we used) is porous and doesn't respond well to heat expansion when left out in the sun. We spent far too long trying to get our 15 printed cases to be watertight, and once we finally did, they expanded in the sun and cracked. But we couldn't afford injection molding and didn't properly explore cheaper plastic casting methods. We spent a bunch of money on tooling for cast aluminum parts that ended up being about 1/32" too tight and complicated fitting components in. And we had a major scope creep in the form of wanting to support mid-rental lockup (we were "stationless" in that the bikes had all the tech, there was still a rack that rentals started/ended at) via a retractable pin and chain, that ended up causing electrical issues with detecting lockup, condensation issues due to the larger openings, much more complicated mechanical workings... I honestly think that if we had cut that single feature, things might have turned out differently.
kmicklas 10y ago
There are already more Citi Bike docks in NYC than I feel like is necessary for the service to be convenient. Within one block of my apartment there are already 3!
- jzwinck 10y ago
  Wow. Two of those could be removed. One to be replaced with a Duane Reade and the other a Starbucks.
FindMySocks 10y ago
For those interested: over here in China (specifically Shanghai) is a massive bike sharing war being fought, where the two largest incumbents have been given well over $200m in investment money over the last year. The leading brands are Mobike and Ofo, with around 4 other small competitors creeping in. Mobike was started by an ex-Uber China manager, launched in Shanghai - whereas Ofo had been developed as a bike sharing scheme in universities. Mobike has GPS enabled, QR unlocked bicycles. Where as Ofo are not GPS enabled and are unlocked with a simple analogue pin code bike lock. If you want to know more, let me know.
- rahimnathwani 10y ago
  Great summary. I started using Mobike+subway+Mobike to get to/from work after Uber China stopped offering generous subsidies. I use both Mobike and Ofo, depending on which is available. Advantages of Mobike: - Map-based view of nearby bikes - Can reserve a bike for 15 mins, whilst you walk to it from wherever you are (good if you're a couple of subway stops away) - Bikes are plentiful in most places I go Mobike disadvantages: - Bikes take some effort to ride, perhaps due to a dynamo and the weight of the electronics Ofo advantages: - Bikes are light and easy to ride Ofo disadvantages: - Need to wander around to find one, which takes time, even if the app tells you there are some nearby - Quite common for an Ofo bike to be locked to something using a private chain (i.e. someone has stolen it), and you don't know until you walk up to it
  - abrowne 10y ago
    > - Bikes take some effort to ride, perhaps due to a dynamo and the weight of the electronics The shaft drive can't help either.
  - joss82 10y ago
    > - Quite common for an Ofo bike to be locked to something using a private chain (i.e. someone has stolen it), and you don't know until you walk up to it How about always carrying a metal saw with you?
    - 10y ago
ucaetano 10y ago
This has been available in Germany for 17 years, run by the rail company (DB): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_Bike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_Bike And some cities also have their own programs, such as Munich's MVG Rad (E48/year for 30 min per day): https://www.mvg.de/services/mobile-services/mvg-rad.html https://www.mvg.de/services/mobile-services/mvg-rad.html
- amenghra 10y ago
  And there was a fun CCC talk about hacking them: http://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike http://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike
SimpleMinds 10y ago
I would like to ask about what bothers me after trying such services in China (stationless bikes), in Shenzhen: How will you address annoying parking? I've noticed that people in China really quickly realised how free is "stationless" and you would see those bikes parked in middle of roads, in middle of walking paths, dumped in bushes - just because you can. At one point I saw some foreigner (so not to say only Chinese do it) arrive at Starbucks, stop his bike just in front, lock it and go inside. I found the idea really great but that kind of overtaking of shared space is quite disturbing.
masonic 10y ago
Spin's bikes will be parked neatly all across the city Where? Have they arranged appropriate parking places / staging points on private property? Or do they play to just lock bikes to sign poles and streetlamps? Imagine the visual pollution of thousands of brightly-colored bikes strewn around (or, worse yet, taking up capacity in bike racks that then limits their use for individually-owned bikes). Many cities have banned random newsracks on public thoroughfares for exactly this reason (including S.F.).
- jessaustin 10y ago
  Bicycles are beautiful objects. The appearance of most cities would be vastly improved by a generous salting of colorful bikes.
  - mdrzn 10y ago
    Until there are too many.
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      Is this a slippery-slope argument? "You might not mind five bikes parked on your block; what about a THOUSAND?" Five shared bikes on a block would probably remove at least a couple of automobiles from the block, on average, so I'm all for it! Presumably cars would disappear entirely well before we got to a thousand shared bikes, so if we stopped then we'd be fine...
      - mdrzn 10y ago
        Five is ok, if there's a place meant to be the bike parking place. If not, that's five bikes locked up to poles and street signals. What about a hundred?
        jessaustin 10y ago
        Does the block have 500 shared-bike riders present at any particular time? Conservatively assuming that the average rider is riding an hour a day (which would be 24:1), a 5:1 riders to bikes ratio is also a conservative assumption. If there are that many riders, then by all means it's reasonable to have 100 bikes present as well. If there aren't enough poles and racks, the bike company or the city can plant some more. It still won't cost near as much as maintaining the streets.
driverdan 10y ago
We tried something similar a few years ago with Spokefly. We didn't own the bikes, anyone with an extra bike could participate, and we didn't put GPS on them. Users checked bikes in and out with their phone's GPS. There were numerous problems and the company failed. The market for our service wasn't big enough. If you owned the bikes I think it would work better since sizes are consistent, they're easier to brand, etc. That said it's really hard to make money on it when you're competing with publicly subsidized bike shares and VC subsidized ride shares. Phones still don't work well. It was too easy for the GPS location to be wrong or for users to have phone connectivity problems, causing a lot of frustration. Our service was popular at big events where traffic was bad (eg SXSW) but that's when cell service is the worst. If you rely on phones your users will have problems.
bogomipz 10y ago
Hamburg, Germany has an interesting bike program where there are docks but you can also lock the bike up using a digital lock on the back wheel so if you need to stop somewhere and there isn't a dock close by or you just don't feel like returning it yet you can lock it up. I think this is a great option. I wonder if cities will allow this competition among bike sharing. Some of these bike programs have big corporate sponsors and the cynical side of me imagines they might have an influence on whether cities allow new entrants to the market.
andrewmb 10y ago
As another user mentioned, this idea (stationless bike share/rental) has been white-hot in China since the past summer, with a lot of extreme incidents occurring in the past couple months. The article doesn't exaggerate about 10ft tall piles of bicycles. Vandalism is a major part of the competition between companies as well--it is a regular sight (in Shenzhen) to see bikes with spray paint over QR codes, falsely reported damage, missing seats, etc. Overall, the system works extremely well and is super convenient, but Shenzhen has very good public transportation to begin with and most of the sidewalks in the city are very wide compared to those in San Francisco. Those are two of the key things that have enabled this type of service to emerge and take off in China--it's really just solving a "last-mile" problem of getting to a point that's too far from a metro station to comfortably walk but not far enough to take a cab.
pouetpouet 10y ago
Nextbike a german company offers station less bikeshare, or at least a hybrid model, dockless within a central area and with stations outside. http://www.nextbike.de/en/locations/ http://www.nextbike.de/en/locations/ zoom in on "red" locations like Köln or Karlsruhe.
- awjr 10y ago
  Their sister company just created the first fully electric bike share programme in Exeter, UK https://www.co-bikes.co.uk/ https://www.co-bikes.co.uk/ I think this is the key thing bike share programmes are missing to get 'normal' people on board. Bicycles are great exercise, ebikes are simply the quickest and easiest way to travel around cities. Bath Hacked were able to get hold of the NextBike Bath hire data for the scheme. Hire stations even on slight hills had significantly less usage. These bikes are heavy and people that rent them are not used to cycling. Lot of people taking bikes from the station on the hill, but very very few to the station. We also found a huge number of circular rides (back to the same station) i.e. tourists/locals using them for leisure rides. The following video shows all the rides by hour of day rides are taken excluding circular hires. The station with very few rides is top right ("Sulis"). Note how there are a bunch of drunk students riding them back to halls around 3am in the morning ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AfocuESnSg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AfocuESnSg Even if your city is flat, electric bikes will make a big difference to uptake. The mistake people make is that the people that get the council to implement these schemes are usually keen cyclists and are 'ok' with a bit of strenous cycling. That is not 95% of your potential customer base. PS: Would be good to see co-bike's hire data at some point and the impact elevation had on hires.
  - masklinn 10y ago
    Dockless electrical seems like a drawback though, as chances become high your undocked ebike is now just a heavier regular bike.
    - awjr 10y ago
      Sorry I was just commenting on the need to appeal to 'normal' people who find the idea of cycling too much effort and too sweaty. Electric bikes need docking stations but usually a charge will last at least 40 miles. More than enough for a day.
Piskvorrr 10y ago
Check out https://www.rekola.cz/en https://www.rekola.cz/en - running on the same principle since 2014, might have some ideas ;)
basdevries 10y ago
San Francisco seems like a terrible place to open up anything to do with bicycles. Everyone will just ride down the hill, park the bike, and get an uber later. Some poor asshole will have to take them all back up.
rahimnathwani 10y ago
"The MTC previously struck an exclusive agreement with Motivate and Ford ... Disruptors who just enter the market without city approval would potentially violate that agreement." How could 'Disruptors' violate an agreement to which they're not a party?
rahimnathwani 10y ago
"In China, kiosk-free bikeshare programs have proven almost as problematic as they have popular. Riders have parked bikes in fire lanes..." I've lived in China (Beijing and Shanghai) for 6+ years, and have never seen a fire lane. "And in some cases, towering piles of bikes have cause Chinese cities major headache as they’ve blocked pedestrians, created an eyesore and a possible safety hazard. (Imagine a bike falling from a ten-foot high pile, and landing on your head?)" What are they talking about? Are they suggesting that riders are parking bikes on top of each other? How did the last rider place their bike on the top of a "ten-foot high pile"? I haven't seen anyone tall enough to do that, in China or anywhere else. This whole paragraph seems totally made up.

85 points by yurisagalov 10y ago

newy 10y ago

Hello HN! I'm Euwyn, one of the co-founders of Spin (also, 2x YC alum). We're excited about bringing the dock-less bikeshare model to our home city of SF. I've lived in SOMA for years, and have always wanted to bike around, except: (a) it was always a hassle to deal with a bike after going around town, because I would inevitably end up Uber-ing somewhere after my first stop and (b) my bikes would get stolen :( Would love to hear any questions you guys had about the business, and look forward to you guys riding our bikes soon. ps. If you want to follow along or have any questions about Spin or startups in general, I'm 'euwyn' on Whale and Snapchat.

MK999 10y ago
Say a bike does get stolen, then you'd need to contact the police, but maybe the police are busy and don't actually care, that's the pain point that I see, maybe its a baseless concern.
- icebraining 10y ago
  As far as I know, it's far from a baseless concern. Paris, for example, lost 9000 bikes just in a year. Relying on the police seems folly, they probably just have to make a good estimate and price-in the replacements into their business model.
stevenrace 10y ago
What are you using for for networking/on board computing? The article mentions 2G is used in China - however here in the US such services are being depricated [1]. [1] https://www.att.com/esupport/article.html#!/wireless/KM1084805 https://www.att.com/esupport/article.html#!/wireless/KM10848...
- dko 10y ago
  Hey stevenrace, I'm Derrick, one of the co-founders of Spin. Given our roots in the US, we're building our bikes for the local market, and use different tech than the Chinese companies, for example, FCC-compliant devices or networks that are available in the US (3G and newer).
  - openfuture 10y ago
    This is a completely empty statement. Since you are one of the co-founders you should be able to spend at least some effort on answering the actual question or explain why you would chose not to do so.
putsteadywere 10y ago
I love my local bikeshare and dock-less would be a huge improvement. I've never noticed theft, and while there was some initial vandalism it never impacted our experience. My local program allows us to check out 4 bikes at a time, per account. Last summer, my partner and I would check out 8 bikes and go out on the town with friends. The ability to share my bikeshare with my friends allows me to ride a lot more - it sucks to be in the mood to go for a ride and be hanging out with people who don't have bikes.
- dko 10y ago
  Thanks for the support! Making biking more accessible for everyone is one of our goals with Spin. Where are you based, and what's your local program? PS. This is Derrick, one of the co-founders of Spin :D
  - putsteadywere 10y ago
    Portland Oregon's "Niketown" program
cturitzin 10y ago
How do you deal with bike rebalancing?
- dko 10y ago
  We've a few tricks up our sleeves here to make it effective and affordable for us.
  - jackcarter 10y ago
    Dynamic pricing to incentivize trips that bring bikes back to high-demand origin points?
- _rpd 10y ago
  This is key, otherwise a bike being available at the right time just becomes too rare. Also, getting sign-off & GPS to work reliably in urban environments - it is super frustrating paying by the minute and being unable to stop the clock - or being directed to a bike location and finding nothing there.
gthtjtkt 10y ago
> (b) my bikes would get stolen This is why I don't ride a bike in Philadelphia. I don't know anyone here who rides a bike and hasn't had it stolen at least once. The only way to guarantee your bike isn't stolen is to bring it inside, which isn't an option at most workplaces. And even if it was an option it's a huge hassle.
- stdbrouw 10y ago
  Alternatively, buy a cheaper bike. Most folks in Belgium and the Netherlands use bikes that are 50-100 euro, so if your bike gets stolen every couple of years it's not that big of a deal.
  - 234dd57d2c8db 10y ago
    Stolen once a year is unrealistic in Philidelphia. Also then you just ride a crappy bike around the whole time. Hardly a solution imo.
  - mikekchar 10y ago
    When I was working in London, I was always worried about having my bike stolen if I rode to work. Just before I moved back to Japan I started doing the math. My train fare was 18 GBP per day to go a grand total of 30 km each way (22 km as the crow flies). 18 GBP * 5 = 90 GBP per week. As long as I got my bike stolen less than once a month, I could have had a reasonably decent commuter bike and still come out ahead :-P By the time I realised it, I wasn't in good enough shape to ride 60 km a day and I was just about to leave anyway.
    - closeparen 10y ago
      Even at 20mph, that's nearly 2 hours a day. What an insane amount of commute time.
      - gideonparanoid 10y ago
        It can be enjoyable though. You'll save time in other areas too - will be more awake, won't need to do cardio exercise at the gym etc.

mgberlin 10y ago

Your bikes are going to be stolen, stripped, and scrapped.

alexandercrohde 10y ago
Though I don't agree with how you're saying what you're saying, I am curious how this issue is planning to be addressed. As a SF resident, let's say I took a bike home to hayes valley. I'd say there's a 90% chance your bike will get stripped/stolen each night (assuming it's locked well with a good lock) in this area. Would I be liable for this as a user? Also I can't imagine this would be profitable if there isn't a revolutionary change in theft-prevention. Perhaps it's the GPS component will help discourage thieves?
- MK999 10y ago
  Maybe somebody could make a business out of bicycle parking.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  Gps helps and then I think its mostly down to design. The lock has to be so integrated that breaking it leaves the bike unusable, and wheels, saddles etc has to be non-standard so no one could use or sell a wheel or other part from one of the bikes. Also the bikes have to be recognizable in geometry so that it's very obvious to any buyer if a re-painted stolen one is sold. Stealing and stripping bikes has only 4 reasons 1) selling it 2) selling parts 3) transportation 4) vandalism. Vandalism is almost impossible to prevent. The other 3 should be preventable by good (and well-known) design. For the bikes to be well known enough you need a large exposure. You can't have just e.g 1000 bikes in SF.
- kalleboo 10y ago
  Why is crime so horrible in SF?
  - alexandercrohde 10y ago
    What do you mean? We don't have any criminals here, we only have "victims" who are undereducated and "rebalancing privilege" when they sell your $1,000 bike for $50 bucks so they can buy a handle.

RandomMaker 10y ago

This is a fantastic idea! Can't wait for it to go live :)

dko 10y ago
Thanks for your support! Which city are you in? (And do sign up at https://spin.pm https://spin.pm)

begotles123 10y ago

this looks amazing!

cjbenedikt 10y ago

Has worked in Germany for years. Sponsored by Deutsche Bahn.

johansch 10y ago
More details?
- Xylakant 10y ago
  The DB has a bike-sharing offer (Call-a-Bike) as well as a car sharing offer (Flinkster). Call-a-Bike used to be free-floating in a lot of locations, among them Cologne and Berlin, but that changed to a station/dock based system a few years ago. It's supposed to be changing back to free-floating again, at least in Berlin. The bikes all have a distinct build and color and a Box with a simple touch display and a lock. Even before smartphones you could just text a number and it would send an unlock code. To drop the bike off you'd lock it and call an automated system to give it the displayed confirmation code. That was actually pretty nifty, I liked and used it a lot. The CCC did a tear down of one of the bikes https://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike https://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike
  - philfrasty 10y ago
    Definitely free-floating over here in Munich.

Eridrus 10y ago

This reminds me of the April fools video Google put out about self-driving bikes. It would be neat if self-driving bikes could go to where they were needed.

amenghra 10y ago
Self driving tricycles?

colept 10y ago

How is this better than docking stations? I tried bike sharing and gave it up because the bikes were poorly maintained and replaced with cheaper bikes (thanks Citibike). Bikes fail, sometimes missing brakes, other times a flat tire. Why are docking stations important? Because a couple times a week I notice the company pull up with a trailer and maintain the bikes. They swap out the broken ones and fill the stations. Is Spin going to drive around the city tracking individual bikes to replace them?

chris_7 10y ago
The new Citibikes are much better (well, lighter, at least, at you definitely notice that on a bridge incline) than the old ones though?
- colept 10y ago
  Sure they're lighter, but the old ones were resilient and didn't fall apart as easily.
Hondor 10y ago
Perhaps if a bike is unused for a long time, or repeatedly gets returned immediately after borrowing it, they assume it's broken and pull it out for servicing. Not having docks, they wouldn't need to put the replacement bikes back at the same location or time and that could be done in cheaper batches.
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edavison1 10y ago
I've been Citibiking since nearly the start and I prefer the new models. Sometimes the brakes are bad, true, but I never pick one with a flat tire (of course checking before I take it out) and I have to say I have gotten tremendous utility from my membership. Sucks to see someone who didn't like it. I think your last point is pretty devastating and I don't see dockless bike sharing ever reaching the grand scale of something like Citibike.

dsr_ 10y ago

The problem I've always had: what I want from a bikeshare is to be able to exit the train station, grab a bike, bike the remaining kilometer or two to work and drop the bike. Later in the day I want to do the same in reverse. That only works in a hub program if there's a dock next to my office building. (You can count on a dock being next to the train station.) Or I could pay for all-day rental of the bike, when I'm only using it for two ten-minute periods. In a dockless system, does it actually get any better for my use case?

benatkin 10y ago
I also wouldn't be satisfied with solid tires.
- nradov 10y ago
  Are solid tires really so bad if you're only going a few miles on asphalt at a moderate speed? Seems better than risking a flat or under inflated tire. If they have to send bike mechanics to change and inflate tubes all the time it kind of kills the economics of bike sharing.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    Are they solid, or spongey? Solid rubber would be quite heavy, and most riders wouldn't like the rotational inertia.
    - Taniwha 10y ago
      they are actually full of holes look closely at the closest orange tire in this pic http://d3nd7i493f0o21.cloudfront.net/assets/resized/img/bikes-0-600-0-800.jpg http://d3nd7i493f0o21.cloudfront.net/assets/resized/img/bike...
  - sidlls 10y ago
    I stopped using the Bay Area Bike Share bikes and just bought my own commuter bike for a couple hundred bucks. The lighter frame and narrow tires have improved the biking part of my commute so much. The difference is just astounding. It could be a big difference.

vcarl 10y ago

Hey, I tried to do this! I was CTO of a little student startup called A2B Bikeshare for a while. We called it "stationless" though :) We got a prototype working with a custom Android device with touch, 3g, GPS, and built in credit card swiper in Lansing MI, but ultimately we b it off more than we could chew. The team collapsed in mid 2015, and the company was just recently completely shuttered. It's validating to see a more skilled team put together a solid product, but damn it would have been fun to be that team haha. Best of luck!

rckclmbr 10y ago
I love this comment, thanks for sharing it. And next time, you'll be the "more skilled person".
teh_klev 10y ago
> It's validating to see a more skilled team put together a solid product Don't put yourself down. It looks like the founders are reasonably well financed, probably well connected, and of course the Bay area effect.
- vcarl 10y ago
  No, I was in my early twenties, didn't know how to scope a project, didn't know how to effectively push back on scope creep, and didn't really have the technical chops for what we were attempting. I learned a ton and wouldn't make the same mistakes again, but none of us had any prior startup experience. These guys have a lot of startup experience, and being well connected is being skilled at networking. I'm not being self deprecating, this team is objectively more experienced than we were.
mac01021 10y ago
What part of making a solid product did you fail at (if you don't mind sharing)?
- vcarl 10y ago
  Turns out hardware is hard. My view of it is scope creep that caused delays in starting environmental testing, ultimately leaving us with too little time to properly address the problems that we discovered. We tried to use 3d printed cases for the prototype units, but it turns out 3d printed material (at least the type we used) is porous and doesn't respond well to heat expansion when left out in the sun. We spent far too long trying to get our 15 printed cases to be watertight, and once we finally did, they expanded in the sun and cracked. But we couldn't afford injection molding and didn't properly explore cheaper plastic casting methods. We spent a bunch of money on tooling for cast aluminum parts that ended up being about 1/32" too tight and complicated fitting components in. And we had a major scope creep in the form of wanting to support mid-rental lockup (we were "stationless" in that the bikes had all the tech, there was still a rack that rentals started/ended at) via a retractable pin and chain, that ended up causing electrical issues with detecting lockup, condensation issues due to the larger openings, much more complicated mechanical workings... I honestly think that if we had cut that single feature, things might have turned out differently.

kmicklas 10y ago

There are already more Citi Bike docks in NYC than I feel like is necessary for the service to be convenient. Within one block of my apartment there are already 3!

jzwinck 10y ago
Wow. Two of those could be removed. One to be replaced with a Duane Reade and the other a Starbucks.

FindMySocks 10y ago

For those interested: over here in China (specifically Shanghai) is a massive bike sharing war being fought, where the two largest incumbents have been given well over $200m in investment money over the last year. The leading brands are Mobike and Ofo, with around 4 other small competitors creeping in. Mobike was started by an ex-Uber China manager, launched in Shanghai - whereas Ofo had been developed as a bike sharing scheme in universities. Mobike has GPS enabled, QR unlocked bicycles. Where as Ofo are not GPS enabled and are unlocked with a simple analogue pin code bike lock. If you want to know more, let me know.

rahimnathwani 10y ago
Great summary. I started using Mobike+subway+Mobike to get to/from work after Uber China stopped offering generous subsidies. I use both Mobike and Ofo, depending on which is available. Advantages of Mobike: - Map-based view of nearby bikes - Can reserve a bike for 15 mins, whilst you walk to it from wherever you are (good if you're a couple of subway stops away) - Bikes are plentiful in most places I go Mobike disadvantages: - Bikes take some effort to ride, perhaps due to a dynamo and the weight of the electronics Ofo advantages: - Bikes are light and easy to ride Ofo disadvantages: - Need to wander around to find one, which takes time, even if the app tells you there are some nearby - Quite common for an Ofo bike to be locked to something using a private chain (i.e. someone has stolen it), and you don't know until you walk up to it
- abrowne 10y ago
  > - Bikes take some effort to ride, perhaps due to a dynamo and the weight of the electronics The shaft drive can't help either.
- joss82 10y ago
  > - Quite common for an Ofo bike to be locked to something using a private chain (i.e. someone has stolen it), and you don't know until you walk up to it How about always carrying a metal saw with you?
  - 10y ago

ucaetano 10y ago

This has been available in Germany for 17 years, run by the rail company (DB): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_Bike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_Bike And some cities also have their own programs, such as Munich's MVG Rad (E48/year for 30 min per day): https://www.mvg.de/services/mobile-services/mvg-rad.html https://www.mvg.de/services/mobile-services/mvg-rad.html

amenghra 10y ago
And there was a fun CCC talk about hacking them: http://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike http://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike

SimpleMinds 10y ago

I would like to ask about what bothers me after trying such services in China (stationless bikes), in Shenzhen: How will you address annoying parking? I've noticed that people in China really quickly realised how free is "stationless" and you would see those bikes parked in middle of roads, in middle of walking paths, dumped in bushes - just because you can. At one point I saw some foreigner (so not to say only Chinese do it) arrive at Starbucks, stop his bike just in front, lock it and go inside. I found the idea really great but that kind of overtaking of shared space is quite disturbing.

masonic 10y ago

Spin's bikes will be parked neatly all across the city Where? Have they arranged appropriate parking places / staging points on private property? Or do they play to just lock bikes to sign poles and streetlamps? Imagine the visual pollution of thousands of brightly-colored bikes strewn around (or, worse yet, taking up capacity in bike racks that then limits their use for individually-owned bikes). Many cities have banned random newsracks on public thoroughfares for exactly this reason (including S.F.).

jessaustin 10y ago
Bicycles are beautiful objects. The appearance of most cities would be vastly improved by a generous salting of colorful bikes.
- mdrzn 10y ago
  Until there are too many.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    Is this a slippery-slope argument? "You might not mind five bikes parked on your block; what about a THOUSAND?" Five shared bikes on a block would probably remove at least a couple of automobiles from the block, on average, so I'm all for it! Presumably cars would disappear entirely well before we got to a thousand shared bikes, so if we stopped then we'd be fine...
    - mdrzn 10y ago
      Five is ok, if there's a place meant to be the bike parking place. If not, that's five bikes locked up to poles and street signals. What about a hundred?
      - jessaustin 10y ago
        Does the block have 500 shared-bike riders present at any particular time? Conservatively assuming that the average rider is riding an hour a day (which would be 24:1), a 5:1 riders to bikes ratio is also a conservative assumption. If there are that many riders, then by all means it's reasonable to have 100 bikes present as well. If there aren't enough poles and racks, the bike company or the city can plant some more. It still won't cost near as much as maintaining the streets.

driverdan 10y ago

We tried something similar a few years ago with Spokefly. We didn't own the bikes, anyone with an extra bike could participate, and we didn't put GPS on them. Users checked bikes in and out with their phone's GPS. There were numerous problems and the company failed. The market for our service wasn't big enough. If you owned the bikes I think it would work better since sizes are consistent, they're easier to brand, etc. That said it's really hard to make money on it when you're competing with publicly subsidized bike shares and VC subsidized ride shares. Phones still don't work well. It was too easy for the GPS location to be wrong or for users to have phone connectivity problems, causing a lot of frustration. Our service was popular at big events where traffic was bad (eg SXSW) but that's when cell service is the worst. If you rely on phones your users will have problems.

bogomipz 10y ago

Hamburg, Germany has an interesting bike program where there are docks but you can also lock the bike up using a digital lock on the back wheel so if you need to stop somewhere and there isn't a dock close by or you just don't feel like returning it yet you can lock it up. I think this is a great option. I wonder if cities will allow this competition among bike sharing. Some of these bike programs have big corporate sponsors and the cynical side of me imagines they might have an influence on whether cities allow new entrants to the market.

andrewmb 10y ago

As another user mentioned, this idea (stationless bike share/rental) has been white-hot in China since the past summer, with a lot of extreme incidents occurring in the past couple months. The article doesn't exaggerate about 10ft tall piles of bicycles. Vandalism is a major part of the competition between companies as well--it is a regular sight (in Shenzhen) to see bikes with spray paint over QR codes, falsely reported damage, missing seats, etc. Overall, the system works extremely well and is super convenient, but Shenzhen has very good public transportation to begin with and most of the sidewalks in the city are very wide compared to those in San Francisco. Those are two of the key things that have enabled this type of service to emerge and take off in China--it's really just solving a "last-mile" problem of getting to a point that's too far from a metro station to comfortably walk but not far enough to take a cab.

pouetpouet 10y ago

Nextbike a german company offers station less bikeshare, or at least a hybrid model, dockless within a central area and with stations outside. http://www.nextbike.de/en/locations/ http://www.nextbike.de/en/locations/ zoom in on "red" locations like Köln or Karlsruhe.

awjr 10y ago
Their sister company just created the first fully electric bike share programme in Exeter, UK https://www.co-bikes.co.uk/ https://www.co-bikes.co.uk/ I think this is the key thing bike share programmes are missing to get 'normal' people on board. Bicycles are great exercise, ebikes are simply the quickest and easiest way to travel around cities. Bath Hacked were able to get hold of the NextBike Bath hire data for the scheme. Hire stations even on slight hills had significantly less usage. These bikes are heavy and people that rent them are not used to cycling. Lot of people taking bikes from the station on the hill, but very very few to the station. We also found a huge number of circular rides (back to the same station) i.e. tourists/locals using them for leisure rides. The following video shows all the rides by hour of day rides are taken excluding circular hires. The station with very few rides is top right ("Sulis"). Note how there are a bunch of drunk students riding them back to halls around 3am in the morning ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AfocuESnSg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AfocuESnSg Even if your city is flat, electric bikes will make a big difference to uptake. The mistake people make is that the people that get the council to implement these schemes are usually keen cyclists and are 'ok' with a bit of strenous cycling. That is not 95% of your potential customer base. PS: Would be good to see co-bike's hire data at some point and the impact elevation had on hires.
- masklinn 10y ago
  Dockless electrical seems like a drawback though, as chances become high your undocked ebike is now just a heavier regular bike.
  - awjr 10y ago
    Sorry I was just commenting on the need to appeal to 'normal' people who find the idea of cycling too much effort and too sweaty. Electric bikes need docking stations but usually a charge will last at least 40 miles. More than enough for a day.

Piskvorrr 10y ago

Check out https://www.rekola.cz/en https://www.rekola.cz/en - running on the same principle since 2014, might have some ideas ;)

basdevries 10y ago

San Francisco seems like a terrible place to open up anything to do with bicycles. Everyone will just ride down the hill, park the bike, and get an uber later. Some poor asshole will have to take them all back up.

rahimnathwani 10y ago

"The MTC previously struck an exclusive agreement with Motivate and Ford ... Disruptors who just enter the market without city approval would potentially violate that agreement." How could 'Disruptors' violate an agreement to which they're not a party?

rahimnathwani 10y ago

"In China, kiosk-free bikeshare programs have proven almost as problematic as they have popular. Riders have parked bikes in fire lanes..." I've lived in China (Beijing and Shanghai) for 6+ years, and have never seen a fire lane. "And in some cases, towering piles of bikes have cause Chinese cities major headache as they’ve blocked pedestrians, created an eyesore and a possible safety hazard. (Imagine a bike falling from a ten-foot high pile, and landing on your head?)" What are they talking about? Are they suggesting that riders are parking bikes on top of each other? How did the last rider place their bike on the top of a "ten-foot high pile"? I haven't seen anyone tall enough to do that, in China or anywhere else. This whole paragraph seems totally made up.