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US Announces Withdrawal from TPP
- meesterdude 10y agoProbably the only silver lining to be found in the new administration.
- free2rhyme214 10y agoSays a liberal ROFL
- dang 10y agoPlease post civilly and substantively, or not at all.
- williamle8300 10y agoWell, it's only been one day. There's more to come. Power to the people of the United States!
- paulddraper 10y agoMore soothsaying. It might temper your confidence to know that most forecasts have routinely been wrong about President Trump.
- meesterdude 10y agohe broke 34 of his promises on day 1 https://thinkprogress.org/on-his-first-day-in-office-trump-broke-34-promises-683c957286dc https://thinkprogress.org/on-his-first-day-in-office-trump-b...
- paulddraper 10y agoSo even his own forecasts are wrong :) More seriously, they might not complete on day 1, but many will happen. E.g. your article lists the TPP withdrawl was a broken "day 1" promise. How long did that take? Couldn't have been much more than 24 hours...
- xienze 10y agoWell that's how the "Trump is such a liar" stuff works. Take everything he says 100% literally with no wiggle room and wow, look at all those promises he broke. He said he'd do this the first day, it's actually the second day! What a complete fraud this guy is!
- meesterdude 10y agoThis is not normal. Trump is not normal. Do not act like this is just any old election. Millions of people in the USA and around the world do not normally march in protest of our elections. Oh yeah, and trump is a liar. That's very well documented - and just a google search away. But I'm not really concerned with if he's a liar or not. I just care about what he ends up doing. I do not suspect I will like it very much - but I would LOVE to be wrong.
- xienze 10y agoSo I kinda understand, but at the same time don't understand the point of articles like this. "Ha ha, Trump didn't do all those awful things that he said he would on the very first day!" Shouldn't that make people who are against Trump happy? I know, I know, the point is that people who are apparently smart but don't understand the concept of hyperbole can say "LOL Trump lied again, he said he'd do all this stuff on day one but he didn't until day three, you Trump voters got taken for a ride!"
- Malician 10y agoPeople don't like a wildcard. Trump's broken promises are a little more than slight exaggerations. At this point I have to wonder if it's possible for him to lie in a way he hasn't already which will lead his supporters to recognize it as more than hyperbole. My guess is that it's not about what he says, but whether they feel he is acting in favor of their interests or not - which is really a totally different matter. He just stood up in front of the CIA and claimed that he had more people than any Inauguration. In reality, he had less than half. The man has 0 integrity. It's not just one thing, it's everything he says. Hillary had a public and a private position - he's got so many positions his words mean nothing. Yes, he really does seem to be behind reducing immigration. Yes, I can guess that when he stood up and told Silicon Valley's CEOs he was going to remove the borders and trade restrictions, he was probably lying. But in the end, the details are what matter, and for him to violate every single thing he says in favor of vague wishy-washy nonsense is not someone I can trust as President.
- DefaultUserHN 10y ago>He just stood up in front of the CIA and claimed that he had more people than any Inauguration. Except he didn't. I watched that press conference. He said he had lots and lots of people. He never said he had more people than Obama. He was calling out CNN because CNN was trying to make it seem like had less than half. >In reality, he had less than half. Except we have photos showing he have almost the same as Obama. Around 90% of Obama. https://i.redd.it/romblz2zsxay.jpg https://i.redd.it/romblz2zsxay.jpg https://i.redd.it/gvwobqfr0yay.jpg https://i.redd.it/gvwobqfr0yay.jpg The photo you saw probably came from CNN. CNN posted a photo from earlier in the day, before people started filling it up, and claimed that Trump only had half the people. http://i.imgur.com/cLiofdu.png http://i.imgur.com/cLiofdu.png Here's a photo closer to the end, showing the crowds goes all the way to the back, almost comparable to Obama. https://i.reddituploads.com/a3495b511eed42509c6f3a82b853996f?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&s=02d97ed976b28d2805de75338613859e https://i.reddituploads.com/a3495b511eed42509c6f3a82b853996f...
- TazeTSchnitzel 10y agoHis press secretary is already blatantly lying to the media and complaining that they reported the news accurately, so that surely bodes well.
- treehau5 10y agoOpposed to the polite kind of lying the previous administration engaged in. At least I get my bullshit upfront with this guy.
- maverick_iceman 10y ago"If you like your insurance, you'll keep your insurance."
- treehau5 10y agothat's just the icing on the cake. There's all that "collateral damage" via drone strikes, and then his stepping all over the constitution, nothing to see here folks, move it along. The loaded gun that Obama left for Trump is what terrifies me the most. Trump has been shown the way on what to do when you want to take out a citizen without due process of law. I am hopeful that all the disdain against Trump will result in a peeling back of these abuses that Obama pioneered, even more so than his predecessor, Mr. Bush. http://reason.com/archives/2017/01/10/goodbye-obama http://reason.com/archives/2017/01/10/goodbye-obama
- paulddraper 10y agoPolitifact honored that utterance as Lie of the Year in 2013. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/dec/12/lie-year-if-you-like-your-health-care-plan-keep-it/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/dec/12/...
- wavefunction 10y agoWhat does your comment even mean? According to you, you're getting lied to either way.
- noobermin 10y agoHere's my take. Look at Rex Tillerson, and a lot of others in his cabinet, not to mention Trump's donors. This looks more to me like the speech did, claim to bring power back to the people and then end a regulation that would yield savings for homeowners on their mortgages a couple hours later. Claim to want healthcare for all and not really put forward with a replacement, but continue the route towards repeal. Claim to be against "global financial interests" then appoint rich, wealthy donors to his cabinet and not to mention a number of former Goldman Sachs employees. The point is a lot of money on the line. Being against TPP is good politics, but it doesn't fly well with those who funded him. I am worried what happened with the ethics office will happen here: they tried it, be blown back by the bad rep it gets, reverse course, then pass rules that limit the ethics office anyway when no ones looking. I have a feeling that Trump is doing this for press now, but a form of the TPP will pass anyway because there is just too much money on the line.
- dang 10y agoPlease don't post generic partisan comments. They lead to generic partisan flamewars.
- 464192002d7fe1c 10y agoGreat again.
- Animats 10y agoTPP was dead anyway. The next question is whether the new administration will withdraw from NAFTA.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- jaboutboul 10y agoProbably won't withdraw, but may seek to re-negotiate it is what is more likely
- sandworm101 10y agoMany here love to hate on any and all international trade deals. The problem with is that withdrawing from such negotiations does not stop them. Canada, china, europe, japan, the uk and everyone else will still be meeting and inking deals. Not every deal is great for everyone, but those who sit on the sidelines never win at anything.
- woodruffw 10y agoWell said. By shunning TPP instead of bringing it back to the table for renegotiation, this administration has set the tone for American/European economic involvement in Asia for decades to come. The consequences of this will be severe, and will materialize in the form of harm to the poorest segments of our population.
- sandworm101 10y agoBasics example: the canadian pipelines. If the US doesn't want canadian oil then China will take it. There are pipeline plans in canada pointing both south and west, nobody really cares which way it goes. And Vancouver has more Chinese nationals than Americans. If push comes to shove on lumber, oil, grains (ie beer ingredients) or any other basic resource there is another ready customer on this planet.
- wavefunction 10y agoThe Canadian pipelines were always about shipping petroleum and natural gas over to China. That's part of the reason people oppose the DAPL and other pipelines, because US (and Canadian) communities are taking on the environmental risks of economic arrangements that benefit the wealthy (Trump was invested in DAPL) and China, with a few pipeline jobs the crumbs to satiate the affected communities.
- philliphaydon 10y agoTPP has been one of the worst things to happen to New Zealand. If only we would open our eyes and withdrawal too.
- orangecat 10y agoThe intellectual property provisions were terrible, so this may be the right action for the wrong reasons.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Maarten88 10y agoI so much hope that one of these countries will quickly change local laws to reduce copyright length to old levels (like 25 years after the life of the author) and start legally distributing (or even producing) movies featuring Mickey Mouse and other Disney "properties".
- TazeTSchnitzel 10y agoUnfortunately, the Berne Convention exists and mandates a 50 year post-death-of-author minimum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention Mind you, 50 years would still be an improvement.
- kobeya 10y ago50 years would still put Mickey Mouse in the public domain.
- TazeTSchnitzel 10y agoExactly!
- vacri 10y agoI feel like Mickey Mouse is really a special case - Disney employs literally thousands of people promoting their IP, and MM's been in constant ongoing and heavy use by them since the start. Mickey Mouse isn't a 'sitting on their laurels' situation - it's an actively worked bit of IP - not something that would be described as 'passive income'.
- juki 10y agoWikipedia says Mickey Mouse was created by Walt Disney and Ub Iwerks. Walt Disney died in 1966, but Ub Iwerks only died in 1971, so wouldn't it still be a few more years before that 50 years after death runs out?
- lern_too_spel 10y agoThe TPP has nothing to do with copyright lengths. Copyright length is covered by the Berne Convention, first signed in the 19th century.
- williamle8300 10y agoYep! Undo every Ohbummer legislation that doesn't put America first.
- otoburb 10y agoI know your comment was sarcastic, but NAFTA has been around since 1993, which precedes Obama by several administrations.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement#Negotiation_and_U.S._ratification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agre...
- tptacek 10y agoInstead of responding to trolls, just click the timestamps on their comment to find the "flag" button. (I'll delete this comment in a few minutes to clean up the thread; you could do that too.)
- stonogo 10y agoYes, why spend the time to correct someone's misapprehensions, when you could just silence them and remove them from your echo chamber?
- ketralnis 10y agoBecause if they are in fact just trolls, they aren't simple misapprehensions made in good faith that can be corrected by facts and reason. They're either an intentional derailment or a lie told as a catchy tune to be repeated by others. "Obama wants to take away your guns and institute death panels" can't actually be refuted by facts because the problem isn't that the teller just holds the wrong facts. There are no facts or arguments will make that person walk away with their mind changed. Which one this commenter was is up to you, but actually responding to trolls makes the problem worse, not better. It's a case where only moderation can really help. Besides, Hacker News is very clearly a heavily moderated echo chamber and you don't have to spend long here to know it. And there's nothing wrong with that, nobody is obligated to go to places that they don't want to go and this is an interest group with a culture. Accosting people in their interest groups to demand that they debate you is clearly not helpful to anyone.
- Bluestrike2 10y agoIt will take decades to undo the damage from this latest bout of isolationism and protectionism. There was a wealth of FUD surrounding TPP, obscuring the benefits and over-inflating the effects of the more controversial issues like intellectual property rules. A number of TPP criticisms would lead one to believe that intellectual property rules were the main element of the agreement. Instead of pushing to deal with those criticisms, the entire deal gets scrapped. And along with it, we now have an isolationist push against NAFTA and international trade in general. It'll be interesting to see the damage that's wrought in a vain attempt to somehow stack the deck in favor of "America First." Sadly, it'll take much longer to fix than it did to screw up in the first place.
- Analemma_ 10y agoIn order from best to worst, the possible outcomes were: 1. Fix the many problems with TPP, then pass it 2. Scrap TPP entirely 3. Pass TPP as it was You say "Instead of pushing to deal with those criticisms, the entire deal gets scrapped.", but this is the real FUD. There was a huge outcry to fix TPP's problems-- that got completely ignored by the USTR, which didn't even try to pretend it had the people's interests in mind. If there were any chance that public criticism of TPP actually could have improved it, I would've preferred that solution, but it was made plain from the beginning that that wasn't going to happen and that we were not welcome at the discussion table. > Sadly, it'll take much longer to fix than it did to screw up in the first place. Agreed. The first step, and the hardest, will be for the people pushing for trade deals to start giving a shit about anyone other than corporations and billionaires. Reconciliation and public approval of trade deals can come after that
- Ericson2314 10y agoI think your ordering is right. I wish there was more information to completely pervasively argue it...
- jerf 10y agoScrapping it can be step one of fixing it, or at least a future iteration that probably won't be called the same thing. Demonstrating that the people who weren't invited to the table do in fact have the power to scrap the treaty means next time they'll be at the table, or there won't be a next time.
- niftich 10y agoTPP was a communications and messaging failure on parts of governments. Other than being a sprawling agreement touching on multiple unrelated topics largely developed in secret, the US government in particular did little to convincingly persuade the populace about TPP's advantages. The anti-globalization folks predictably seized on those aspects while a different debate about the expansion of copyrights (i.e. the harmonization of copyright protections with those of the US) was raging in the tech sphere. A gulf began to widen between the administration and those opposing TPP, and quality independent analysis was much more difficult to come by than fearmongering. A few corporations spoke out in favor of TPP [1], but given their vested interest, they made a poor case of swaying average people. Meanwhile, even mainstream news coverage of TPP tended negative. Hillary Clinton notably had modify her messaging on TPP [2] to be seen as a viable candidate, despite endorsing it before. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11893512#11894446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11893512#11894446 [2] http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-called-trans-pacific-partnership-the-gold-standard/ http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-called-trans-pacific-p...
- mtgx 10y agoThe fact that mostly corporations were invited to the negotiations and not the civil society probably didn't help that whole "communication issue" either.
- Natsu 10y agoYeah, I think it's a bit more than a communications issue when they secretly negotiated a treaty that planned to take away the rights of everyone online to give a few media giants even more control over what people can say online. The EFF has a long list of reasons to oppose it here: https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp
- dba7dba 10y agoEFF and Trump admin on same page on something? What is going on?
- lancewiggs 10y agoTPP was a trade agreement ruined by a long series of provisions sharply biased towards the USA and certain US industries. So as a New Zealander I'm really happy to see the back of it. Meanwhile we already have an FTA with China (and many other countries) and our trade both ways is booming. Perhaps we can start again with a much cleaner, people friendly TPP that excludes the US and includes China.
- notpc 10y agoTPP was a threat to the sovereignty of the United States. It would have encoded in a multilateral trade agreement, representing huge amounts of economic activity, massive regulatory requirements, enforcement courts, and processes for further multilateral regulation. It would have made the cost of changing those regulations unbearable for any future administration. We almost had the regulatory state imposed at an international level. Good riddance.
- Analemma_ 10y agoSo you're aware, you're being downvoted for "liberal internationalism". I'm completely a liberal internationalist, and I opposed TPP- for a lot of the reasons you described! This is a class issue, not a partisan issue.
- notpc 10y agoI just removed it because it's not even the right word. I meant to refer to the philosophy that seeks to incrementally build an international legal order. It's commonly called "liberalism" within the context of international relations but isn't directly related to contemporary western leftism, also called "liberalism". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_(international_relations) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_(international_rela...
- Analemma_ 10y agoI think the word that most clearly states what you mean, and would be understood by the greatest number, is "neoliberalism". In any case, I've undone my downvote.
- themusicgod1 10y agoThe TPP was far greater than a class issue. It was part of the War on General Purpose Computation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg). It cut through class lines, into our ability to control the technology in our lives.
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- shmerl 10y agoGood! Let's see what new monsters the DRM lobby will pull out of their twisted minds.
- ggame 10y agoNot a fan of Trump but this is a good thing. See this exert from John Oliver on the effect of such trade deals; https://youtu.be/6UsHHOCH4q8 https://youtu.be/6UsHHOCH4q8 And that's the existing trade deals, TPP would have made it much worse. There is a reason why democratically elected governments need to protect their sovereignty. The scope of the legal provisions along with the requirement to use easily corruptible mediation is superfluous to free trade. In addition, I don't understand those that think boxing out Russia and China from the rest of Europe and Asia is a good thing.
- chiaro 10y agoFWIW, the ISDS cases referred to in that video have all been lost, with costs. > sovereignty Buzzword. A nation is always free to enter and leave contracts for mutual benefit. > In addition, I don't understand those that think boxing out Russia and China from the rest of Europe and Asia is a good thing. Vastly preferable to being boxed out of Europe and Asia by the aforementioned powers. Don't be naive.
- kerbalspacepro 10y ago>I don't understand those that think boxing out Russia and China from the rest of Europe and Asia is a good thing. The idea is that if you can connect the economies of small regional powers (Korea, Japan, Vietnam or Poland, Romania, Hungary) more than they're connected to the regional hegemon, and you connect those powers to the US, then you will have a balance of power in the region that makes war impossible.
- breatheoften 10y agoI'm curious to see if the markets react to this. In the grand scheme of things, one trade deal shouldn't move the markets that much -- but the reasoning behind this withdrawal from the TPP is nothing at all approaching any of the real reasons one might be opposed to it -- the cause for this withdrawal is pure unfiltered sabre-rattling protectionism. "Let the trade wars commence and America intends to 'win'." The level of stupid behind that notion is nigh on incomprehensible -- and yet -- here we are.
- acconrad 10y agoI'm very confused. When the TPP first leaked as a series of secret talks, everyone on HN was seemingly up in arms about the trade deal. Then it went through, and HN shifted to being very pro TPP. Now it's withdrawn, and now the HN mentality is back to voting for comments that are against the TPP. What is the prevailing opinion here?
- Normal_gaussian 10y agoThe prevailing opinion isn't always the one most written or voted. There is an activation cost to spreading your opinion, and writing is often the act of last resort (ie, no definitively positive action is available). In the previous situation all that agreed with the TPP need do nothing, as it looked sure to pass, so the argument was not worth having for them. The anti-TPP had very few positive actions available to them so it largely fell to writing. Now the anti-TPP position has prevailed those against the TPP see little reason to debate it, yet those who were for it are left with nothing but writing.
- jessaustin 10y agoI think this is correct. Also, it calls to mind some marching that took place yesterday.
- pessimizer 10y agoHN isn't one person, so I think you can blame the varied reactions on the origin and perspective of the article that the comment thread is hanging on, the relative quality of the arguments made in the particular comment being upvoted or downvoted, and the state of activity of particular groups either supporting or opposing TPP at that moment. The opposition nominally won at the point where Clinton renounced her support while Trump was an unstoppable juggernaut. After this final blow, the thread is largely centrist mourning and a bit of Trump-boosting because of his follow-through on a universally (in the US) popular promise.
- chiaro 10y agoLast I checked most Americans with an opinion on the TPP actually supported it.
- general_ai 10y agoCame here to see the anti-Trump crowd justify why this is bad (after spending years railing against the TPP). Was not disappointed.
- chris_wot 10y agoWhat is the best summary of the TPP? It was done in such secrecy that it occurs to me that this may be the only good thing that comes from a Trump presidency.
- chiaro 10y agoThere used to be decent chapter summaries on trade.gov, but it looks like they've been nuked like everything else in the transition. The Australian government has decent chapter summaries too though, I'd encourage reading those: http://dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/tpp/summaries/Pages/summaries.aspx http://dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/tpp/summaries/Pages/summ... Chapters you may be interested in: Investment (the controversial ISDS provisions are in this chapter) Intellectual Property Labour Environment
- jakeogh 10y ago.... and it's only his 2nd day.
- tormeh 10y agoThis is essentially the resignation of the US in the Pacific. The TPP was intended to bind the smaller countries in the Pacific closer to the US and away from China. Generally, the election of Trump is the resignation of the US in the battle to remain the global hegemon. We live in interesting times. I just hope it won't become too interesting.
- leke 10y agoAs a European, what does this mean for the TTIP and CETA?
- wavefunction 10y agoI wouldn't expect US participance in either unless they're heavily slanted in favor of US interests. That's what I would assume. It's hard to tell because right now the Trump administration approach to trade and pretty much everything is solely sloganeering, but the initial actions appear to support the assumptions that Trump is an isolationist and wants to disengage from much of current and future national accords. I oppose the TPP though not for the reasons given by the Trump administration, who I also oppose, so this exit is bittersweet.
- candiodari 10y agoMaybe it's just me, but wasn't everyone in Silicon Valley that wasn't senior management of a huge company vehemently anti-TPP ? Why the change ?
- philliphaydon 10y agoAh I really wish NZ would withdrawal too. I feel embarrassed to be a Kiwi when they signed it.
- paulus_magnus2 10y agoTPP is an attempt by multinational giants to solidify their position above governments / democracy and secure their monopolist rents.