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Snowden Does Not Deserve the Threat He Faces
- jmcdiesel 10y agoIt doesn't matter. He's either "protected" in Russia or dead. I seriously doubt he could return to the US without suffering some horrible traumatic body-and-evidence-destroying "accident" ...
- edc117 10y agoHonest question - do you truly think that could happen? I've no doubt certain individuals would like it to, but would the people in power allow it? I personally suspect at this stage, his death would turn him into a martyr and the last thing the individuals operating these illegal surveillance programs want is more attention back on what they are doing.
- devoply 10y agoI don't know how he could really do much more damage at this point. What would killing him achieve. And also can't they get him in Russia too? I mean in a country like that with all the mafia, etc. A few million would go a long way. I wonder how much Russia is protecting him from a CIA hit. In Russia he's much more of a threat as Putin's useful idiot than he would be on American soil. I am not saying he's a useful idiot, I am saying he's a useful idiot to Putin and that's why Putin has given him protection. Also I don't think that you hand over a chip like Snowden without serious concessions from the US. But could happen under Trump.
- Normal_gaussian 10y agoKilling somebody on foreign soil opens you up to a whole can of worms that killing on your own soil doesn't, so regardless of whether or not he is being actively protected there is significant passive protection just by being there.
- atmosx 10y agoSo are we to assume that the CIA wants Snowden dead, but they can't get a chance to kill him in Russia? I found that hard to believe. Maybe, there is some kind of commitment to the FSB (don't kill in the US, we won't go on a killing spree in Russian soil kind of deal), but even that I find it hard to believe. I also find very hard to believe the claim the the FSB somehow protects him.
- drspacemonkey 10y ago>So are we to assume that the CIA wants Snowden dead, but they can't get a chance to kill him in Russia? Not so much can't get a chance as the price would be too high. He's under Russian protection. That protection is political far more than tactical. The CIA could probably pick him up in less than an hour if they knew they could do it without pissing off the Russians. It's the "pissing off the Russians" part that's stopping them, not the logistics.
- Normal_gaussian 10y agoIt isn't just pissing off the Russians, its pissing off everybody. When you perform an act on foreign soil you open yourself up to scrutiny from everyone. The USA is already largely considered a warmonger state As for whether the CIA would want Snowden dead - I presume it would only have been useful to them pre-leak, and I doubt murder would have been on the cards then anyway. I don't see retribution as being particularly high on the CIA's list of priorities, and the political entities in the US that are keeping Snowden relevant wouldn't appear to gain anything from his death.
- RUG3Y 10y agoThe US Govt kills people on foreign soil often, even in countries that we're not at war with. If we hear about it happening in Pakistan, where does it happen that we don't hear about? Also, you're assuming that the US Govt is rational and doesn't want an excuse to go to war with Russia or anyone else.
- Arizhel 10y agoAssassinating someone on Russian soil is a great way to start a war. You seem to be assuming that it could be covered up successfully. History proves otherwise; all too often, the truth comes out eventually. And if he were assassinated, the party responsible would be fairly obvious early on, because there's only one country that would have the motivation to finance that operation. Putin gives him protection because it lets him thumb his nose at the US.
- res0nat0r 10y agoI'm sure the USG would love to put him on trial if he would return to the USA. Obama said as much in why he pardoned Manning and not Snowden, in that Manning has already gone through the justice system whereas Snowden has not.
- RUG3Y 10y agoI think the public has a short attention span. What if Snowden disappeared without a trace? He wouldn't be a martyr - intelligent people might assume that he's dead, and everyone else would be worried about the current distraction in media and entertainment.
- gervase 10y agoFirst, let's accept the conceit (for now) that nation-states have both the desire and the capability to do this. In that context, it's very easy to imagine ways to frame the death such that it would prevent him from seeming a martyr. Died in a car accident, strangled during auto-erotic asphyxiation, shot in a drug deal gone bad, depression-related suicide, etc. The right context could be used to discredit him further, in addition to silencing any potential impact by giving speeches or serving as a public figure for a privacy-focused organization in the future (for example). Of course, you could then respond that it would still spawn conspiracy theories, but the doubt planted would certainly blunt the kind of wide-spread movement (or public outrage) that might otherwise sprout from a bald-faced assassination. Realistically, conspiracy theories will pop up in any situation in which Snowden doesn't die of old age at 95, so this isn't much of a dissuading factor for our hypothetical villains. We know that state-sponsored assassination is possible, based on the basically-obvious case of Litvinenko. Crucially, we can also never know of any attempt which was successfully reframed, which makes it impossible to determine whether or not these "accidents" exist; there are many, many deaths which have been nominated as candidates, but no conclusive evidence of those that I'm aware of. So, rather than "would the people in power allow it", I think the following 3 questions are more pertinent: 1 - Are nation-states competent enough to plausibly disguise the attempt? 2 - Which nation-states conduct this kind of behavior? 3 - Who in the intersection of Q1 and Q2 cares enough about Snowden to do it?
- pvg 10y agoWhy on earth would the US government bother doing this and what 'evidence' is there to destroy? This weirdly popular idea that Snowden (or Assange, etc) are the targets of active, persistent USG plots to murder them doesn't make much sense. What could the US gain by this, for the hassle?
- atmosx 10y agoI think that the risk of Assange ending in the US via Sweden, if he leaves the embassy is very real.
- pvg 10y agoMaybe but that's hardly assassination.
- gkoberger 10y agoAssange perpetuates these ideas for publicity. Snowden likely fears for his safety (rightfully so; Trump's CIA pick has said he wants Snowden dead), but seems to be much less hysterical about hitmen and death.
- artursapek 10y agoIt would probably be done to 1) get revenge (human nature) 2) scare other potential whistle blowers
- pvg 10y agoOdd that, say, Daniel Ellsberg has lived to be 85 and has not been hit by a ninja CIA bus. No NSA anvil has fallen on James Bramford (age 70). And there are dozens of others you can think of. There's next to no evidence the US government operates in the way you assume with respect to such people. Why does Snowden suddenly get his own squad of assassins?
- notahacker 10y agoAnd strategically, assassinating Snowden is about the worst possible move for a US linked agency since (i) it makes them look bad, even to some of the people who think Chelsea Manning got off lightly and (ii) it makes Snowden's revelations interesting to a whole bunch of people that don't read Hacker News and think that articles about email monitoring sound incredibly dull. You don't have to believe that every US chain of command in every theatre of operations has qualms about "disappearing" people suspected of quietly leaking secrets to think that causing an international incident over a public figure like Snowden, even if the assassins were guaranteed to succeed and not perish in a firefight with Russian cops called by an FSB security detail, isn't going to do them any good.
- cm2187 10y agoA Snowden delivered in handcuffs would be a nice gift from Putin to Trump.
- tn13 10y agoPutin wont gift. Putin might trade. When Snowden gets delivered people are going to ask what did Mr. Trump gave in return. It would raise many eyebrows. Not to mention once Snowden is in USA there will be far more attention to him and his issues in media and public. I will not be surprised of ACLU gets to raise 10X more money because of this event. All good for liberty but bad to Washington's hatemongers.
- nerfhammer 10y ago> Putin wont gift. Putin might trade. How about weakening NATO?
- cm2187 10y agoAn interesting comment from a French general: he thinks the best thing that can happen to NATO is actually the US pulling out of NATO. This would preserve the benefits of NATO (interoperability between all western armies) but would force Europeans to take their own defense seriously instead of relying on the US. For those interested in more details, the podcast (in French): https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/lesprit-public/la-defense-francaise-avec-le-general-desportes https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/lesprit-public/la-def... That makes me think it may actually happen.
- SkyMarshal 10y agoInteresting. Also, the EU has been quietly trying to build an army, this would let them leapfrog all the political potholes of doing so and just assimilate NATO as the new EU army.
- nerfhammer 10y agoGiven that NATO has been the most successful alliance of all time, the "best thing that can happen" to it must be pretty good.
- csours 10y agoOT - It would be nice to add what section of the paper this comes from to the HN title, in this case Opinion. People see the headline and the website and may assume that this is a New York Times article approved by the NYT Editors.
- mLuby 10y agoLOL. Did you even read the NYTimes during 2016?
- dang 10y agoPlease don't post like this, especially on divisive topics. I'm sure you can make your point neutrally and substantively. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13431080 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13431080 and marked it off-topic.
- notpc 10y agoPerhaps Snowden was justified in revealing domestic spying programs. Perhaps not. But Snowden also leaked a lot of information about our legitimate foreign intelligence activities. Spying on foreigners is the raison d'etre of the NSA, CIA, et al. He revealed our methods and capabilities for conducting such foreign intelligence while fleeing into the arms of our adversaries. He should face trial for this treachery and pay the price. The punishment for treason is death.
- hourislate 10y agoI have no idea why your being junked. You said nothing but the truth. +1
- consciouskernel 10y agoMaybe you should do a modicum of research before deciding what is the truth, even in this post fact world. Pretty much everything written by the commenter who you replied to was wrong. Punishment for treason is not necessarily death. Snowden leaked the info to trusted news sources who then proceeded to decide what to publish. Snowden was stuck in Russia at the airport en route to somewhere else when everything was getting grounded to find him. Russia took the chance to offer him asylum and as he had no other options he took it.
- notpc 10y agoLeaking to "trusted news sources" is still leaking! Further, my central claim, that Snowden leaked the details of legitimate foreign intelligence activities, is hard fact. Look at my response to 'abandonliberty'. As for him just being stuck in Russia, he claims to have been en route to Ecuador by way of Cuba by way of Russia. All of these, mind you, part of the same anti-American bloc (which Venezuela is also a member of).
- dpark 10y agoWhat do you imagine the alternate escape routes were? Do you think he could hide out in Wales? If you want to escape the clutches of the US, you must go somewhere that won't simply extradite you back to the US. Being in Russia, "stuck" or not isn't relevant to whether Snowden is a traitor. I also don't see how Ecuador is part of an "anti-American bloc" given that they are a democratic state and literally use the US dollar as their official currency.
- dirkg 10y agoIts sad, and telling, that the majority of people in this country still believe that he's a traitor, should be punished, and that the govt is right and should be allowed to abuse power. People actually believe that someone revealing information about crimes is more guilty than the criminals. Hypocricy at its finest.
- dandare 10y agoI am wondering if people today are somehow more irrational than they used to be or if it just me noticing it more.
- Grue3 10y agoOh, please. Hard to feel pity for him, when whistleblowers face threat of being murdered here in Russia. And Snowden has the "threat" of due process. How awful.