10 ms·

Former Apple engineer: Tim Cook made Apple a 'boring operations company'

142 points by bangonkeyboard 10y ago

untog 10y ago
I'll believe it. But on the other hand, I remember when iCloud was an incredibly unreliable service, when iMessage went down... Apple needed to improve its operations. Preferably not at the expense of being an interesting company, though.
- smrtinsert 10y ago
  Reliable, innovative. Pick 1.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    With that much cash, they could probably afford both at the expense of reducing scope a bit. So maybe: reliable, innovative, big - pick 2.
    - ethagknight 10y ago
      To expand a bit, the well known Project Management triangle is Scope, Cost, and Schedule, pick 2; Scope envelopes reliability and innovation, and schedule is critical as well, so Apple is left with high cost, which they can certainly handle.
  - untog 10y ago
    When it comes to the device I depend upon every day, I'll go for reliable please.
John23832 10y ago
I don't get why people are so surprised that this is the Apple we're seeing under Tim. Tim was the COO... he knows operations. He's not a creative, he's not a tech guy. He knows operations, and he knows them well. While the creative/user facing side has been lack luster (depending on if you ask the average consumer or a techie), the operational side is booming. Their product line has slimmed, they have clear and concise build processes, they've improved their services roll out and are still sitting on a mound of cash. I think Tim has accomplished what he was put in place to do. People act like Steve Jobs, the guy who put Tim there, didn't know Tim at all. Jobs knew Tim very well. He knew what Tim was good at, and I'm sure they talked about what Tim should do in the future. This is the established course for Apple. Take it or leave it.
- athenot 10y ago
  The unfortunate part of this is that while a crazy product-driven visionnary needs a solid Operations leader to deliver the product, an Operations head will not suffer having a crazy product wildcard among his ranks. So this is a one-way transition from creative chaos to predictable stability.
  - kasey_junk 10y ago
    Is there any evidence at all to back up this assertion? Why in the world would you assume that an operations head can't see the value of product driven visionaries, but the reverse is true? I have worked several times for operational leaders who have valued and cultivated visionary product thinking.
- rapsey 10y ago
  > Their product line has slimed, they have clear and concise build processes, and are still sitting on a mound of cash. The mac line is regressing in terms of hardware and software. While they used to have one of the best mobile dev environments, they now have the worst development environment. XCode is a bigger mess every release. Every macOS has more bugs then the last.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    The Mac line is regressing according to people who bought the first iteration of a new Mac product, violating a cardinal rule in place since the Titanium Powerbook. To my eyes, this is more like adherence to a time-honored Apple tradition.
    - deong 10y ago
      When the second generation won't exist for half a decade, I don't think the old rules are still in effect.
    - rapsey 10y ago
      Software is getting less reliable as well.
thegayngler 10y ago
I think that Apple's lack of structure is why their software and services were largely lacking under Steve Jobs. Maybe there is a way to have your cake and eat it too. IDK, something like Apple Pay under Steve Jobs probably would've had a messy rollout. Software and services require stability and predictability. Tim Cook is the yang to Steve Jobs' ying. I think TC is looking for the optimal balance.
- charlesism 10y ago
  > software and services were largely lacking under Steve Jobs Software? It's a first to hear that Steve's Apple had a problem with software.
  - Mtinie 10y ago
    iTunes.
    - valarauca1 10y ago
      Has been shit under everyone. I really think there are core issues with that product not a question of leadership.
      - deong 10y ago
        I think that is a question of leadership. Writing robust and reliable TCP/IP services isn't the wild blue unknown. People know how to do this. If Apple can't do it in 2017, it's because they haven't made doing it a priority.
      - Mtinie 10y ago
        Right, but the comment I was replying to implied that software problems under Jobs were unheard of. iTunes never "just worked", even when Jobs was running the show. The leadership issue was not expecting the same level of polish and ease-of-use that the rest of the product line offered for iTunes that was lavished on the iPod and iPhone lines. Whether or not it was bad architectural decisions at the beginning, an unfamiliar toolkit, or something else, as a primary application for the OS X and iOS platforms, I have always expected it should be vastly better than what it is.
ape4 10y ago
That video seems to be saying VR is the future. I'm not so sure about that.
- simonh 10y ago
  VR has been the future for 20 years or more.
WhitneyLand 10y ago
I don't think an ops ceo dooms a company to be boring. More important is how good the ops ceo is at recognizing the importance of innovation/ vision and clearing a path for that to happen.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
tptacek 10y ago
Before we all speculate about this ourselves, can we take a second and ask who this former Apple engineer is and what makes him an authority? There are thousands of engineers at Apple.
- vosper 10y ago
  His LinkedIn says that he "Changed the world by developing the most successful products of all time: iPod, iPhone, and iPad." though his actual title was apparently Software Development Manager. His website tag line says he's a "revolutionary" and he credits himself as having "Built the most successful products of all time at Apple". But yeah, seems just some run-of-the-mill dude who used to work at Apple and who's a bit disgruntled with management. There must be loads of them at companies of Apple's size. I guess he just went on the record, and lazy news orgs picked up this non-story.
- dmix 10y ago
  It's another piece of a greater narrative that has existed for Apple post Steve Jobs. The question should be do the sum of the parts fit the whole, or are the enough dissenting opinions and data to indicate otherwise. Assuming he did work there for a number of years I believe that should be sufficient, but I do agree we should validate the parts as well. I believe there is enough out there to support this mid level engineers perspective. It's not necessarily a bad thing either, as teams should focus on their strengths instead of emulating past glory.
jstewartmobile 10y ago
Because the little jails they made under Steve Jobs were "exciting"! https://stallman.org/apple.html https://stallman.org/apple.html
- fallenshell 10y ago
  What does free software vs. proprietary software have to do with this? Low quality comment.
  - jstewartmobile 10y ago
    Jails are boring. The entire 2nd-coming-of-Jobs iReign was boring. CNBC along with the rest of the media was fooled by the Jobs RDF.
adventured 10y ago
This was by design, in that Jobs intentionally chose Cook because he wanted someone that could keep Apple running well and stable during the iPhone boom. It was obvious a few years into the life of the iPhone, that it was going to be a monster product and generate immense profit (although I seriously doubt many expected $40b in annual profit). Jobs didn't believe Apple needed another product guy to come in so soon and tamper with that setup. Cook's job was almost solely to shepherd the iPhone and the supply chain through its growth phase. The guy that comes after Cook, will have to be the next product guy and in theory he'll have immense resources to work with.
bangonkeyboard 10y ago
Clicking through to the original tweetstorm [0] is recommended; it goes into more depth, and there are some continuing showers at this time. It jibes with this page that I found striking, from a book of interviews with ex-Apple executives: http://i.imgur.com/dGmHcqv.png http://i.imgur.com/dGmHcqv.png [0]: https://twitter.com/bob_burrough/status/821085627084984320 https://twitter.com/bob_burrough/status/821085627084984320
emehrkay 10y ago
Whats the over/under on Scott Forestall coming back in a Job-ish way to help "win" back mindshare?
1024core 10y ago
I think Apple under Cook will have the same fate as Microsoft under Ballmer.
- iaw 10y ago
  Ballmer was a political leader for Microsoft (looking back on his statements, they were all designed around keeping the stock price up not prognosticating the future of tech/Microsoft). I give Cook a lot more credit than Ballmer, he may not be able to attain a Jobs/Gates level performance for the company but let's not insult the man.
omouse 10y ago
Nobody can be bothered to quote the most important part of the article? > "At Apple in 2007, organizationally it was the wild west," Burrough said. "I was hired under a particular manager, but for the first two years worked on projects that had virtually nothing to do with that manager's core responsibility. That's because the organization wasn't the priority, the projects were the priority. It was the exact opposite of 'not my job.' It was 'I'm here to solve whatever problems I can, irrespective of my role, my title, or to whom I report.' It was wild. But it was also very rewarding, because everything you did had maximal impact on the product." > > But today, the "dynamic has clearly and distinctly changed," and Apple is much closer to his job at Palm, said Burrough, who most recently founded a 3D printing company called Bilt It. > > "Working at Palm, the teams were highly organizational, [hierarchical] and responsibilities were siloed," Burrough said. "There was a clear sense that each person had a clear responsibility, and rarely deviated from it. When you went to someone for help solving a problem 'not my job' was a common response." Is this something for startups to be worried about, introducing hierarchy and silo'ing and a culture of "not my job" especially as they grow rapidly?
- iaw 10y ago
  There's a balance, too little silo'ing and you get thrash/overlap. Too much silo'ing and you get tunnel-vision products/unhealthy competition. I don't know how you can strike the right balance.
mark_l_watson 10y ago
I am frustrated with some of Apple's web services. iCloud is better than it used to be but I find Siri to be inferior to Google Now. That said, I love my MacBook and iPad Pro devices. Also, it is easy enough to use the Google app on iPhones (which I don't have) and iPads. For consumers, I think the MacBook is a good direction to go: excellent battery life and screen, and compact form factor. I use a 16 core, 60GB ram VPS for development so the MacBook being a little weak in the CPU department is fine with me. So, I think Apple is going in a good direction, but I would like them to ramp up investment in web services.
ctdonath 10y ago
All these comments about innovation vs lack thereof, and no mention of Jonny Ive?
mentos 10y ago
The iPhone bridged an enormous gap putting the world in everyone's pocket. What gaps are left?
DoodleBuggy 10y ago
>>> "There was a clear sense that each person had a clear responsibility, and rarely deviated from it. When you went to someone for help solving a problem 'not my job' was a common response." Yikes. Perhaps that explains some of the software quality lately.
- shapov 10y ago
  You are taking that quote out of context. The full quote: "Working at Palm, the teams were highly organizational, [hierarchical] and responsibilities were siloed," Burrough said. "There was a clear sense that each person had a clear responsibility, and rarely deviated from it. When you went to someone for help solving a problem 'not my job' was a common response." He is clearly talking about his previous experience at Palm.
  - Thetawaves 10y ago
    It is still a valid comment. "If working at Apple is as bad as working at Palm .... "
EGreg 10y ago
Apple is sitting on so much cash. I never understood why they couldn't throw a couple BILLION dollars at a long term project to eliminate bugs from its software. Instead they have had tons of regressions with almost every major release. This hurts their bottom line and reputation. Apple developed Swift and GCD, they could have pioneered new levels of reliability and revived Dijkstra's focus on provably correct practices. They could have gotten their reputation for "it just works" back and then some. Why don't they? Do they care anymore? Other areas: * Network and social. Why not get this right? Ping was their best attempt, seriously? * Voice. They let others own this space after buying Siri? Why? You are rolling out interfaces for cars and homes and you don't care about people associating you with "smart and natural interfaces"? What happened to the Mac standing out for being easy to interact with? Instead they invest it in some shadowy fund that makes safe investments. At least use 1% of your money on this every year you guys! What is wrong with you? Haven't you learned from every other company that has stopped innovating along the lines of what they were known for?
- brianwawok 10y ago
  I don't think a Billion dollars would make a dent in the bugs on OSX and iDevices. Look at the NASA cost per line of code. Now look at the lines of code in just OSX alone. (Ignore iTunes etc). Frankly, people aren't willing to pay $5000 for a music app when the free iTunes one works. Or $9000 for the "bug free" word processor with 100 features, then the $100 buggy word processor from microsoft with 1000 features exists.
  - EGreg 10y ago
    Are you serious? A billion dollars wouldn't make a dent in the bugs on OSX and iDevices? They used to have far fewer bugs. At the very least – and this costs far less than a billion dollars – you can massively expand your regression testing. Have more automated regression tests. Do testing in more environments. I mean, it's not that hard to realize that the Wifi is borked, or that the Message Composer in all iOS apps are now broken. Some of the new Apple bugs are just unbelievable. It makes Antennagate seem like masterful execution. Ask anyone, Apple's reputation as "it just works" and "the most natural to use" has greatly diminished. They were far more interested in changing everything over to "flat" interfaces (which made it far more ambiguous where you can tap, etc.) and thin fonts (which made it harder to read). OK great, so Apple is now a follower. No, a Billion dollars can do a lot if you have the right people. This ain't healthcare.gov .
kirykl 10y ago
Maybe that's just the reality distortion field wearing off. I think a large impact Steve had at Apple keynotes has gone missing. The product managers just can't replicate his RDF

142 points by bangonkeyboard 10y ago

untog 10y ago

I'll believe it. But on the other hand, I remember when iCloud was an incredibly unreliable service, when iMessage went down... Apple needed to improve its operations. Preferably not at the expense of being an interesting company, though.

smrtinsert 10y ago
Reliable, innovative. Pick 1.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  With that much cash, they could probably afford both at the expense of reducing scope a bit. So maybe: reliable, innovative, big - pick 2.
  - ethagknight 10y ago
    To expand a bit, the well known Project Management triangle is Scope, Cost, and Schedule, pick 2; Scope envelopes reliability and innovation, and schedule is critical as well, so Apple is left with high cost, which they can certainly handle.
- untog 10y ago
  When it comes to the device I depend upon every day, I'll go for reliable please.

John23832 10y ago

I don't get why people are so surprised that this is the Apple we're seeing under Tim. Tim was the COO... he knows operations. He's not a creative, he's not a tech guy. He knows operations, and he knows them well. While the creative/user facing side has been lack luster (depending on if you ask the average consumer or a techie), the operational side is booming. Their product line has slimmed, they have clear and concise build processes, they've improved their services roll out and are still sitting on a mound of cash. I think Tim has accomplished what he was put in place to do. People act like Steve Jobs, the guy who put Tim there, didn't know Tim at all. Jobs knew Tim very well. He knew what Tim was good at, and I'm sure they talked about what Tim should do in the future. This is the established course for Apple. Take it or leave it.

athenot 10y ago
The unfortunate part of this is that while a crazy product-driven visionnary needs a solid Operations leader to deliver the product, an Operations head will not suffer having a crazy product wildcard among his ranks. So this is a one-way transition from creative chaos to predictable stability.
- kasey_junk 10y ago
  Is there any evidence at all to back up this assertion? Why in the world would you assume that an operations head can't see the value of product driven visionaries, but the reverse is true? I have worked several times for operational leaders who have valued and cultivated visionary product thinking.
rapsey 10y ago
> Their product line has slimed, they have clear and concise build processes, and are still sitting on a mound of cash. The mac line is regressing in terms of hardware and software. While they used to have one of the best mobile dev environments, they now have the worst development environment. XCode is a bigger mess every release. Every macOS has more bugs then the last.
- tptacek 10y ago
  The Mac line is regressing according to people who bought the first iteration of a new Mac product, violating a cardinal rule in place since the Titanium Powerbook. To my eyes, this is more like adherence to a time-honored Apple tradition.
  - deong 10y ago
    When the second generation won't exist for half a decade, I don't think the old rules are still in effect.
  - rapsey 10y ago
    Software is getting less reliable as well.

thegayngler 10y ago

I think that Apple's lack of structure is why their software and services were largely lacking under Steve Jobs. Maybe there is a way to have your cake and eat it too. IDK, something like Apple Pay under Steve Jobs probably would've had a messy rollout. Software and services require stability and predictability. Tim Cook is the yang to Steve Jobs' ying. I think TC is looking for the optimal balance.

charlesism 10y ago
> software and services were largely lacking under Steve Jobs Software? It's a first to hear that Steve's Apple had a problem with software.
- Mtinie 10y ago
  iTunes.
  - valarauca1 10y ago
    Has been shit under everyone. I really think there are core issues with that product not a question of leadership.
    - deong 10y ago
      I think that is a question of leadership. Writing robust and reliable TCP/IP services isn't the wild blue unknown. People know how to do this. If Apple can't do it in 2017, it's because they haven't made doing it a priority.
    - Mtinie 10y ago
      Right, but the comment I was replying to implied that software problems under Jobs were unheard of. iTunes never "just worked", even when Jobs was running the show. The leadership issue was not expecting the same level of polish and ease-of-use that the rest of the product line offered for iTunes that was lavished on the iPod and iPhone lines. Whether or not it was bad architectural decisions at the beginning, an unfamiliar toolkit, or something else, as a primary application for the OS X and iOS platforms, I have always expected it should be vastly better than what it is.

ape4 10y ago

That video seems to be saying VR is the future. I'm not so sure about that.

simonh 10y ago
VR has been the future for 20 years or more.

WhitneyLand 10y ago

I don't think an ops ceo dooms a company to be boring. More important is how good the ops ceo is at recognizing the importance of innovation/ vision and clearing a path for that to happen.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

tptacek 10y ago

Before we all speculate about this ourselves, can we take a second and ask who this former Apple engineer is and what makes him an authority? There are thousands of engineers at Apple.

vosper 10y ago
His LinkedIn says that he "Changed the world by developing the most successful products of all time: iPod, iPhone, and iPad." though his actual title was apparently Software Development Manager. His website tag line says he's a "revolutionary" and he credits himself as having "Built the most successful products of all time at Apple". But yeah, seems just some run-of-the-mill dude who used to work at Apple and who's a bit disgruntled with management. There must be loads of them at companies of Apple's size. I guess he just went on the record, and lazy news orgs picked up this non-story.
dmix 10y ago
It's another piece of a greater narrative that has existed for Apple post Steve Jobs. The question should be do the sum of the parts fit the whole, or are the enough dissenting opinions and data to indicate otherwise. Assuming he did work there for a number of years I believe that should be sufficient, but I do agree we should validate the parts as well. I believe there is enough out there to support this mid level engineers perspective. It's not necessarily a bad thing either, as teams should focus on their strengths instead of emulating past glory.

jstewartmobile 10y ago

Because the little jails they made under Steve Jobs were "exciting"! https://stallman.org/apple.html https://stallman.org/apple.html

fallenshell 10y ago
What does free software vs. proprietary software have to do with this? Low quality comment.
- jstewartmobile 10y ago
  Jails are boring. The entire 2nd-coming-of-Jobs iReign was boring. CNBC along with the rest of the media was fooled by the Jobs RDF.

adventured 10y ago

This was by design, in that Jobs intentionally chose Cook because he wanted someone that could keep Apple running well and stable during the iPhone boom. It was obvious a few years into the life of the iPhone, that it was going to be a monster product and generate immense profit (although I seriously doubt many expected $40b in annual profit). Jobs didn't believe Apple needed another product guy to come in so soon and tamper with that setup. Cook's job was almost solely to shepherd the iPhone and the supply chain through its growth phase. The guy that comes after Cook, will have to be the next product guy and in theory he'll have immense resources to work with.

bangonkeyboard 10y ago

Clicking through to the original tweetstorm [0] is recommended; it goes into more depth, and there are some continuing showers at this time. It jibes with this page that I found striking, from a book of interviews with ex-Apple executives: http://i.imgur.com/dGmHcqv.png http://i.imgur.com/dGmHcqv.png [0]: https://twitter.com/bob_burrough/status/821085627084984320 https://twitter.com/bob_burrough/status/821085627084984320

emehrkay 10y ago

Whats the over/under on Scott Forestall coming back in a Job-ish way to help "win" back mindshare?

1024core 10y ago

I think Apple under Cook will have the same fate as Microsoft under Ballmer.

iaw 10y ago
Ballmer was a political leader for Microsoft (looking back on his statements, they were all designed around keeping the stock price up not prognosticating the future of tech/Microsoft). I give Cook a lot more credit than Ballmer, he may not be able to attain a Jobs/Gates level performance for the company but let's not insult the man.

omouse 10y ago

Nobody can be bothered to quote the most important part of the article? > "At Apple in 2007, organizationally it was the wild west," Burrough said. "I was hired under a particular manager, but for the first two years worked on projects that had virtually nothing to do with that manager's core responsibility. That's because the organization wasn't the priority, the projects were the priority. It was the exact opposite of 'not my job.' It was 'I'm here to solve whatever problems I can, irrespective of my role, my title, or to whom I report.' It was wild. But it was also very rewarding, because everything you did had maximal impact on the product." > > But today, the "dynamic has clearly and distinctly changed," and Apple is much closer to his job at Palm, said Burrough, who most recently founded a 3D printing company called Bilt It. > > "Working at Palm, the teams were highly organizational, [hierarchical] and responsibilities were siloed," Burrough said. "There was a clear sense that each person had a clear responsibility, and rarely deviated from it. When you went to someone for help solving a problem 'not my job' was a common response." Is this something for startups to be worried about, introducing hierarchy and silo'ing and a culture of "not my job" especially as they grow rapidly?

iaw 10y ago
There's a balance, too little silo'ing and you get thrash/overlap. Too much silo'ing and you get tunnel-vision products/unhealthy competition. I don't know how you can strike the right balance.

mark_l_watson 10y ago

I am frustrated with some of Apple's web services. iCloud is better than it used to be but I find Siri to be inferior to Google Now. That said, I love my MacBook and iPad Pro devices. Also, it is easy enough to use the Google app on iPhones (which I don't have) and iPads. For consumers, I think the MacBook is a good direction to go: excellent battery life and screen, and compact form factor. I use a 16 core, 60GB ram VPS for development so the MacBook being a little weak in the CPU department is fine with me. So, I think Apple is going in a good direction, but I would like them to ramp up investment in web services.

ctdonath 10y ago

All these comments about innovation vs lack thereof, and no mention of Jonny Ive?

mentos 10y ago

The iPhone bridged an enormous gap putting the world in everyone's pocket. What gaps are left?

DoodleBuggy 10y ago

>>> "There was a clear sense that each person had a clear responsibility, and rarely deviated from it. When you went to someone for help solving a problem 'not my job' was a common response." Yikes. Perhaps that explains some of the software quality lately.

shapov 10y ago
You are taking that quote out of context. The full quote: "Working at Palm, the teams were highly organizational, [hierarchical] and responsibilities were siloed," Burrough said. "There was a clear sense that each person had a clear responsibility, and rarely deviated from it. When you went to someone for help solving a problem 'not my job' was a common response." He is clearly talking about his previous experience at Palm.
- Thetawaves 10y ago
  It is still a valid comment. "If working at Apple is as bad as working at Palm .... "

EGreg 10y ago

Apple is sitting on so much cash. I never understood why they couldn't throw a couple BILLION dollars at a long term project to eliminate bugs from its software. Instead they have had tons of regressions with almost every major release. This hurts their bottom line and reputation. Apple developed Swift and GCD, they could have pioneered new levels of reliability and revived Dijkstra's focus on provably correct practices. They could have gotten their reputation for "it just works" back and then some. Why don't they? Do they care anymore? Other areas: * Network and social. Why not get this right? Ping was their best attempt, seriously? * Voice. They let others own this space after buying Siri? Why? You are rolling out interfaces for cars and homes and you don't care about people associating you with "smart and natural interfaces"? What happened to the Mac standing out for being easy to interact with? Instead they invest it in some shadowy fund that makes safe investments. At least use 1% of your money on this every year you guys! What is wrong with you? Haven't you learned from every other company that has stopped innovating along the lines of what they were known for?

brianwawok 10y ago
I don't think a Billion dollars would make a dent in the bugs on OSX and iDevices. Look at the NASA cost per line of code. Now look at the lines of code in just OSX alone. (Ignore iTunes etc). Frankly, people aren't willing to pay $5000 for a music app when the free iTunes one works. Or $9000 for the "bug free" word processor with 100 features, then the $100 buggy word processor from microsoft with 1000 features exists.
- EGreg 10y ago
  Are you serious? A billion dollars wouldn't make a dent in the bugs on OSX and iDevices? They used to have far fewer bugs. At the very least – and this costs far less than a billion dollars – you can massively expand your regression testing. Have more automated regression tests. Do testing in more environments. I mean, it's not that hard to realize that the Wifi is borked, or that the Message Composer in all iOS apps are now broken. Some of the new Apple bugs are just unbelievable. It makes Antennagate seem like masterful execution. Ask anyone, Apple's reputation as "it just works" and "the most natural to use" has greatly diminished. They were far more interested in changing everything over to "flat" interfaces (which made it far more ambiguous where you can tap, etc.) and thin fonts (which made it harder to read). OK great, so Apple is now a follower. No, a Billion dollars can do a lot if you have the right people. This ain't healthcare.gov .

kirykl 10y ago

Maybe that's just the reality distortion field wearing off. I think a large impact Steve had at Apple keynotes has gone missing. The product managers just can't replicate his RDF