7 ms·

I'm not sure that I'm sympathetic to employers who want to pay less. Keep in mind, the US takes in well over a million immigrants a year, and has a huge intern

by geebee 10y ago

I'm not sure that I'm sympathetic to employers who want to pay less. Keep in mind, the US takes in well over a million immigrants a year, and has a huge internal workforce. The H1B was created to help employers find critical and highly skilled workers that are in desperately short supply in the US. "Oh, but we can't afford to pay them a lot of money, that's not fair!" isn't the sort of argument that tends to evoke much sympathy. We're talking about empowering corporations to bestow US live and work rights on an employee of their choosing, in an end-run around normal immigration procedures. Honestly, if the salary isn't really high, I'm skeptical about whether this visa is being used properly.

tn13 10y ago
> We're talking about empowering corporations to bestow US live and work rights on an employee of their choosing, in an end-run around normal immigration procedures. What is wrong with that ? Honestly I dont see why getting Indian and Chinese workers as cheap labor is bad either. Whatever regulations drove out manufacturing sector from USA mgiht drive out tech from USA too.
- SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
  Manufacturing didn't really leave the US, the jobs are just done by robots.
  - j_koreth 10y ago
    H1-B workers are generally mostly used as programmers and brought in by large tech companies to use instead of native labor. I'm not really sure what manufacturing has got to do with this unless programming was made obsolete by robots already.
- dpark 10y ago
  The entire justification for the H-1B visa system is so that we can bring in highly skilled labor to fill positions that cannot be filled with citizen talent for a reasonable price. If you're hiring H-1Bs at below market, your failure to fill the position is as likely due to your underpaying as it is an actual labor shortage. You cannot reasonably justify the need for H-1Bs if you're underpaying. Further, if you use H-1Bs to fill positions that you could have filled with local talent, then you're taking that visa away from another company that might legitimately need it. Making H-1Bs dependent on bidding or pay seems a plausible way to ensure that they are going to companies with real need and not just companies that are trying to undercut the labor market.
cmurf 10y ago
Why is it OK to pay a cheap wage for work done by an outsourced employee not in the U.S. for the benefit of a U.S. customer; but suddenly not OK when that person is in the U.S.? If the answer is merely, a critical plurality doesn't like that market outcome and has voted to legislate an alternative outcome, well OK. That's the system we have. But on principle, this must be admitted to be protectionism, it's the anti-thesis of a free market solution (which doesn't make it wrong, just call it for what is is). And protectionism is basically saying the local market is overpaid, that's why it needs to be protected.
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  That's there and this is here. For better or for worse, I and other American voters are more responsible for our country than for others. If you think this way, and I think a lot of voters do, then accepting someone into your society carries a higher bar than buying something from a society.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  If you want to go down the route of protectionist laws you need look to further than the copyright and patent systems. Isn't that anti-free market in the same way accept more to the detriment of consumers as opposed to firms? It seems we live in a nation that has rules that govern our markets and everyone is fine with that, until you wish to use that very same system to protect workers in some way.
- Retric 10y ago
  Outsourcing results in rapid salary increases in foreign economies, but low wage workers depress US salaries. So they are not apples to apples comparisons. US workers be they foreign or domestic benefit from US infrastructure like relativly low corruption, clean water etc. Companies want to benefit from that without paying the associated costs.
- ENGNR 10y ago
  It's protectionism to be sure, the enemy of progress. Economic liberalism got too far ahead, and failed to distribute the wealth back to society as was promised. Finally stung, the people turned their back on economic liberalism (for now), and will continue to until they can say "Yay, we destroyed those jobs, now no one needs to do them!".
shas3 10y ago
"if the salary isn't really high..." How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or NYC. While a high skilled scientist working in say, Corning, NY at Corning Corp or Niskayuna, NY at GE's research labs, 100k enables a king's life. How would you adjust for experience? Perhaps a company sees immense potential and cultural fit in an employee and wants to groom them for future roles? The wages of a 30-year industry veteran would kick the promising young star out of the H1B pool, etc. etc. Setting a wage threshold without considering other factors is unfairly simplistic. Besides, companies pay wages based on industry and market averages. You can't suddenly expect them to peg wages to outbid competitors on H1B. Why would Procter and Gamble or Dow or Caterpillar pay university, Facebook, McKinsey, or hedge fund wages? Why should they?
- Retric 10y ago
  For 65,000 people and bidding based on salary, 300k sounds about right IMO. Think brain surgeons and the worlds best security experts not just DBA's.
  - eeZah7Ux 10y ago
    Security experts are not paid like surgeons or developers. I wonder what you mean with "just" DBAs.
    - Retric 10y ago
      I know some security people in the 450+k/year range, and I hear 8 figures is possible. As to just DBA, like programmers there is a long tail salary range but, the majority make under 150k. PS: At various times you hear things like the Teaching shortage, or the Nursing shortage. But, that just supply and demand working as intended when a job does not pay very well few people are going to do it. However, when a job does pay well and you can't find people that's a separate problem.
- tw04 10y ago
  > Perhaps a company sees immense potential and cultural fit in an employee and wants to groom them for future roles? As previously stated, the intention of H1B is for ALREADY SKILLED workers in short supply. If they want to groom someone, they should be hiring a US citizen, not going to the H1B pool to find a low-cost foreign alternative.
blazespin 10y ago
I think exceptions for small businesses of 3-10 employees would be a cool idea, but otherwise I completely agree. We need more small businesses. Wasn't Apple, Facebook, MSFT, Goog, AWS .. didn't they all start as small businesses?
shams93 10y ago
Its stupid to begin with, if you can't fill a skill, train somebody, the federal government does this for gigs that require security clearance. You never need to go outside the country for talent. The h1b program enables age discrimination, once you hit 40 you are pushed out for young immigrant labor, the position was occupied but they want to save money so out you go to poverty just when the IRS was counting on you hitting your peak earning power. Now people peak out at 28 in earning power with the extreme levels of age discrimination we see today.
- doctorpangloss 10y ago
  > You never need to go outside the country for talent. I'm a natural-born citizen with plenty of friends who were unlucky to be born elsewhere. I want to work with them. Can't the government accommodate my simple desire to work with my friends locally?
  - spoonie 10y ago
    You know, as an American citizen you are more likely able to get a work visa to go and work close to your friends.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    There are plenty of citizens who desire to have work. Can't the government accommodate their simple desire to be able to support their families?
- ousta 10y ago
  "You never need to go outside the country for talent" The simple fact that you are selling on a global market means that YOU DO need outside talents...
- pps43 10y ago
  How long will it take to "train somebody" if you need to translate technical documentation from English to Japanese? Some of foreign countries have free education. Why not hire their best graduates? They don't have to pay back student loans and can therefore comfortably accept lower salaries than their US counterparts.
letitgo12345 10y ago
FYI, something like 85% of those million immigrants are non-employment based (~65% family based, ~20% refugees). But I generally agree, body shops spoil the system for everyone. I don't agree with require higher salaries than what the company pays similarly ranked employees tho as that is unfair to employees already there + creates resentment within the workforce.
Frondo 10y ago
Agreed. Isn't the high salary the corporation would have to pay a local worker just a sign of supply and demand in action? Why do we now want to interfere with the high-demand worker's ability to negotiate a really freaking high salary? Isn't that exactly the thing we want, for people to be able to charge a lot for their rare and unique skills? I'm not afraid of regulating business, but this just seems laser-focused to screw the American worker, no matter how you cut it. At the end of the day, if a business can't afford to pay the going local rate, then they don't have a viable business model.

by geebee 10y ago

tn13 10y ago

> We're talking about empowering corporations to bestow US live and work rights on an employee of their choosing, in an end-run around normal immigration procedures. What is wrong with that ? Honestly I dont see why getting Indian and Chinese workers as cheap labor is bad either. Whatever regulations drove out manufacturing sector from USA mgiht drive out tech from USA too.

SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
Manufacturing didn't really leave the US, the jobs are just done by robots.
- j_koreth 10y ago
  H1-B workers are generally mostly used as programmers and brought in by large tech companies to use instead of native labor. I'm not really sure what manufacturing has got to do with this unless programming was made obsolete by robots already.
dpark 10y ago
The entire justification for the H-1B visa system is so that we can bring in highly skilled labor to fill positions that cannot be filled with citizen talent for a reasonable price. If you're hiring H-1Bs at below market, your failure to fill the position is as likely due to your underpaying as it is an actual labor shortage. You cannot reasonably justify the need for H-1Bs if you're underpaying. Further, if you use H-1Bs to fill positions that you could have filled with local talent, then you're taking that visa away from another company that might legitimately need it. Making H-1Bs dependent on bidding or pay seems a plausible way to ensure that they are going to companies with real need and not just companies that are trying to undercut the labor market.

cmurf 10y ago

Why is it OK to pay a cheap wage for work done by an outsourced employee not in the U.S. for the benefit of a U.S. customer; but suddenly not OK when that person is in the U.S.? If the answer is merely, a critical plurality doesn't like that market outcome and has voted to legislate an alternative outcome, well OK. That's the system we have. But on principle, this must be admitted to be protectionism, it's the anti-thesis of a free market solution (which doesn't make it wrong, just call it for what is is). And protectionism is basically saying the local market is overpaid, that's why it needs to be protected.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
That's there and this is here. For better or for worse, I and other American voters are more responsible for our country than for others. If you think this way, and I think a lot of voters do, then accepting someone into your society carries a higher bar than buying something from a society.
cmdrfred 10y ago
If you want to go down the route of protectionist laws you need look to further than the copyright and patent systems. Isn't that anti-free market in the same way accept more to the detriment of consumers as opposed to firms? It seems we live in a nation that has rules that govern our markets and everyone is fine with that, until you wish to use that very same system to protect workers in some way.
Retric 10y ago
Outsourcing results in rapid salary increases in foreign economies, but low wage workers depress US salaries. So they are not apples to apples comparisons. US workers be they foreign or domestic benefit from US infrastructure like relativly low corruption, clean water etc. Companies want to benefit from that without paying the associated costs.
ENGNR 10y ago
It's protectionism to be sure, the enemy of progress. Economic liberalism got too far ahead, and failed to distribute the wealth back to society as was promised. Finally stung, the people turned their back on economic liberalism (for now), and will continue to until they can say "Yay, we destroyed those jobs, now no one needs to do them!".

shas3 10y ago

"if the salary isn't really high..." How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or NYC. While a high skilled scientist working in say, Corning, NY at Corning Corp or Niskayuna, NY at GE's research labs, 100k enables a king's life. How would you adjust for experience? Perhaps a company sees immense potential and cultural fit in an employee and wants to groom them for future roles? The wages of a 30-year industry veteran would kick the promising young star out of the H1B pool, etc. etc. Setting a wage threshold without considering other factors is unfairly simplistic. Besides, companies pay wages based on industry and market averages. You can't suddenly expect them to peg wages to outbid competitors on H1B. Why would Procter and Gamble or Dow or Caterpillar pay university, Facebook, McKinsey, or hedge fund wages? Why should they?

Retric 10y ago
For 65,000 people and bidding based on salary, 300k sounds about right IMO. Think brain surgeons and the worlds best security experts not just DBA's.
- eeZah7Ux 10y ago
  Security experts are not paid like surgeons or developers. I wonder what you mean with "just" DBAs.
  - Retric 10y ago
    I know some security people in the 450+k/year range, and I hear 8 figures is possible. As to just DBA, like programmers there is a long tail salary range but, the majority make under 150k. PS: At various times you hear things like the Teaching shortage, or the Nursing shortage. But, that just supply and demand working as intended when a job does not pay very well few people are going to do it. However, when a job does pay well and you can't find people that's a separate problem.
tw04 10y ago
> Perhaps a company sees immense potential and cultural fit in an employee and wants to groom them for future roles? As previously stated, the intention of H1B is for ALREADY SKILLED workers in short supply. If they want to groom someone, they should be hiring a US citizen, not going to the H1B pool to find a low-cost foreign alternative.

blazespin 10y ago

I think exceptions for small businesses of 3-10 employees would be a cool idea, but otherwise I completely agree. We need more small businesses. Wasn't Apple, Facebook, MSFT, Goog, AWS .. didn't they all start as small businesses?

shams93 10y ago

Its stupid to begin with, if you can't fill a skill, train somebody, the federal government does this for gigs that require security clearance. You never need to go outside the country for talent. The h1b program enables age discrimination, once you hit 40 you are pushed out for young immigrant labor, the position was occupied but they want to save money so out you go to poverty just when the IRS was counting on you hitting your peak earning power. Now people peak out at 28 in earning power with the extreme levels of age discrimination we see today.

doctorpangloss 10y ago
> You never need to go outside the country for talent. I'm a natural-born citizen with plenty of friends who were unlucky to be born elsewhere. I want to work with them. Can't the government accommodate my simple desire to work with my friends locally?
- spoonie 10y ago
  You know, as an American citizen you are more likely able to get a work visa to go and work close to your friends.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  There are plenty of citizens who desire to have work. Can't the government accommodate their simple desire to be able to support their families?
ousta 10y ago
"You never need to go outside the country for talent" The simple fact that you are selling on a global market means that YOU DO need outside talents...
pps43 10y ago
How long will it take to "train somebody" if you need to translate technical documentation from English to Japanese? Some of foreign countries have free education. Why not hire their best graduates? They don't have to pay back student loans and can therefore comfortably accept lower salaries than their US counterparts.

letitgo12345 10y ago

FYI, something like 85% of those million immigrants are non-employment based (~65% family based, ~20% refugees). But I generally agree, body shops spoil the system for everyone. I don't agree with require higher salaries than what the company pays similarly ranked employees tho as that is unfair to employees already there + creates resentment within the workforce.

Frondo 10y ago

Agreed. Isn't the high salary the corporation would have to pay a local worker just a sign of supply and demand in action? Why do we now want to interfere with the high-demand worker's ability to negotiate a really freaking high salary? Isn't that exactly the thing we want, for people to be able to charge a lot for their rare and unique skills? I'm not afraid of regulating business, but this just seems laser-focused to screw the American worker, no matter how you cut it. At the end of the day, if a business can't afford to pay the going local rate, then they don't have a viable business model.