8 ms·

meanwhile, everyone's phone here runs gnu/linux but completely out of reach. everyone bought a computer from an advertising (google) or fashion (apple) company

by gcb0 10y ago

meanwhile, everyone's phone here runs gnu/linux but completely out of reach. everyone bought a computer from an advertising (google) or fashion (apple) company that only runs in kiosk mode. how does your 90s self feel about that?

blauditore 10y ago
To be fair, that's all most users need, and could also use for desktop OS'. You don't need admin rights to open Facebook in a browser... But it hurts as a power user.
AsyncAwait 10y ago
True, but Termux[1] on android makes this less of a pain. 1 - https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=termux&fdid=com.termux https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=termux&fdid=...
- pjmlp 10y ago
  I wonder if it still would work in Android 7, with the new restrictions that kill any application that tries to link to non public NDK libraries.
  - fjrieiekd 10y ago
    And since Android 4.4, access to external SD cards has been restricted unless you use an annoying API or have a rooted device.
AlexeyBrin 10y ago
> meanwhile, everyone's phone here runs gnu/linux but completely out of reach. everyone bought a computer from an advertising (google) or fashion (apple) company that only runs in kiosk mode. Pretty sure there is no GNU component in iOS which is based on BSD. Also, Android uses only the Linux kernel, not even close to a GNU/Linux system.
- jokr004 10y ago
  I feel like probably half the people who insist on calling it "GNU/Linux" don't even really understand why.
  - AsyncAwait 10y ago
    Same as the people who insist on calling it Linux when talking about the desktop.
    - TallGuyShort 10y ago
      If you wouldn't mind referring to the desktop by it's more appropriate name, K/Mozilla/Apache/GNU/Linux, that would be great.
      - AsyncAwait 10y ago
        You forgot C in there :-) Anyway, this misses the point of the FSF in insisting on calling it GNU/Linux. The point of the GNU is not to name every application that runs on your system, but to say that you're running the Linux kernel AND the GNU userland to have a functional system, i.e. that GNU is the second half of a complete system, GNU/Linux. You don't need Apache to have a functional system. You do need libc etc. to have a functional system and when these are provided by GNU, I think it's fair to call it GNU/Linux.
        xj9 10y ago
        yeah, okay. --- No, Richard, it's 'Linux', not 'GNU/Linux'. The most important contributions that the FSF made to Linux were the creation of the GPL and the GCC compiler. Those are fine and inspired products. GCC is a monumental achievement and has earned you, RMS, and the Free Software Foundation countless kudos and much appreciation. Following are some reasons for you to mull over, including some already answered in your FAQ. One guy, Linus Torvalds, used GCC to make his operating system (yes, Linux is an OS -- more on this later). He named it 'Linux' with a little help from his friends. Why doesn't he call it GNU/Linux? Because he wrote it, with more help from his friends, not you. You named your stuff, I named my stuff -- including the software I wrote using GCC -- and Linus named his stuff. The proper name is Linux because Linus Torvalds says so. Linus has spoken. Accept his authority. To do otherwise is to become a nag. You don't want to be known as a nag, do you? (An operating system) != (a distribution). Linux is an operating system. By my definition, an operating system is that software which provides and limits access to hardware resources on a computer. That definition applies wherever you see Linux in use. However, Linux is usually distributed with a collection of utilities and applications to make it easily configurable as a desktop system, a server, a development box, or a graphics workstation, or whatever the user needs. In such a configuration, we have a Linux (based) distribution. Therein lies your strongest argument for the unwieldy title 'GNU/Linux' (when said bundled software is largely from the FSF). Go bug the distribution makers on that one. Take your beef to Red Hat, Mandrake, and Slackware. At least there you have an argument. Linux alone is an operating system that can be used in various applications without any GNU software whatsoever. Embedded applications come to mind as an obvious example. Next, even if we limit the GNU/Linux title to the GNU-based Linux distributions, we run into another obvious problem. XFree86 may well be more important to a particular Linux installation than the sum of all the GNU contributions. More properly, shouldn't the distribution be called XFree86/Linux? Or, at a minimum, XFree86/GNU/Linux? Of course, it would be rather arbitrary to draw the line there when many other fine contributions go unlisted. Yes, I know you've heard this one before. Get used to it. You'll keep hearing it until you can cleanly counter it. You seem to like the lines-of-code metric. There are many lines of GNU code in a typical Linux distribution. You seem to suggest that (more LOC) == (more important). However, I submit to you that raw LOC numbers do not directly correlate with importance. I would suggest that clock cycles spent on code is a better metric. For example, if my system spends 90% of its time executing XFree86 code, XFree86 is probably the single most important collection of code on my system. Even if I loaded ten times as many lines of useless bloatware on my system and I never excuted that bloatware, it certainly isn't more important code than XFree86. Obviously, this metric isn't perfect either, but LOC really, really sucks. Please refrain from using it ever again in supporting any argument. Last, I'd like to point out that we Linux and GNU users shouldn't be fighting among ourselves over naming other people's software. But what the heck, I'm in a bad mood now. I think I'm feeling sufficiently obnoxious to make the point that GCC is so very famous and, yes, so very useful only because Linux was developed. In a show of proper respect and gratitude, shouldn't you and everyone refer to GCC as 'the Linux compiler'? Or at least, 'Linux GCC'? Seriously, where would your masterpiece be without Linux? Languishing with the HURD? If there is a moral buried in this rant, maybe it is this: Be grateful for your abilities and your incredible success and your considerable fame. Continue to use that success and fame for good, not evil. Also, be especially grateful for Linux' huge contribution to that success. You, RMS, the Free Software Foundation, and GNU software have reached their current high profiles largely on the back of Linux. You have changed the world. Now, go forth and don't be a nag. Thanks for listening.
eddieroger 10y ago
I spend a good part of my day in one variant of a gnu/linux environment, whether it be development of apps (for which I use GNU/Emacs), or on a server administering stuff (which technically isn't gnu/linux), so having my fashion phone in kiosk mode feels pretty good, actually. I think I'd be pretty unhappy if the stuff I count as "work" in my mind bled over in to my personal life, and I love not having to jump through the same types of hoops I do for work just to make a simple phone call or send a text message.
marcosdumay 10y ago
My 90's self feels quite good knowing there are enough computers to hack among the big ones (and card sized, and the one on my TV (yes, with GNU/Linux), and the ones I rent...). It would be great if my phone was completely under my control. But my priorities are getting my communication protocols back, and avoiding losing my desktops and servers. The phone can wait.
davexunit 10y ago
Unfortunately there is no GNU on iOS or Android. Every open a terminal on an Android phone and wonder why things just don't feel like the GNU/Linux systems you're used to? It's because it uses things like busybox instead of the GNU coreutils.
- pekk 10y ago
  Not to mention what happens if you decide you would like to start writing a little program (as one does on a real Unix system) and realize that you are in a sandbox designed to prevent you from doing that unless you use all the official SDK stuff through Dalvik, which has a completely different flavor and set of capabilities. Sure, I have a very awesome computer that cost hundreds of dollars but I can't really use it because... somebody said so?
- mastax 10y ago
  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.termux https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.termux Zsh, bash, make, clang, SSH, Python, vim... Their package selection is small compared to debian, but still quite nice.
  - serge2k 10y ago
    being able to install it doesn't make it part of android.
gurkendoktor 10y ago
My 90s self had a Super Nintendo for which the SDK was out of reach. Now I can write apps for my iPhone, iPad and Apple TV. My desktop machine is still a desktop machine.
- gcb0 10y ago
  Sorry to hear about your nintendo limiting your childhood. I did have a Master System, but still, I mostly played with my father's MSX and XT computers. Which had better games anyuway, and where i learned to edit hex values and cheat on my save games and later on to write simple qbasic games.
gtk40 10y ago
What phones run GNU/Linux? Most run Android (Linux kernel, but no GNU in sight) or iOS (based on BSD, maybe with GNU?).
JunkDNA 10y ago
Feels great because my 90's self can look into the future of the early 2000's and see what Windows was like when malware first erupted on the scene and ordinary people were totally unprepared to handle it. I am happy to trade my freedom to tinker for that to not be a problem so I can do actual things I need to with my phone.
- zdkl 10y ago
  Kind of a weird argument. Has malware prevalence really fallen so much? It feels like someone's going to start selling AV software for browsers soon.
nix0n 10y ago
My 90s self never wanted a PC in his pocket, he wished his iPod and flip phone could be one device.
- mhurron 10y ago
  Exactly. I didn't buy a pocket computer, I bought a phone that can play music files and show a map. When I wanted a general purpose computer, I bought a general purpose computer.
jsz0 10y ago
> everyone bought a computer from an advertising (google) or fashion (apple) company that only runs in kiosk mode. This type of attitude just discourages people from ever wanting to leave the so-called kiosk mode.
redblacktree 10y ago
> how does your 90s self feel about that? It's a knife to the heart when you put it that way.
- gcb0 10y ago
  :D
pjmlp 10y ago
My phones run Java/Linux and Windows Phone. The Linux fork used on Android and the set of official NDK APIs, make it so that Google can at any Android release change the kernel for something else and only OEMs or devs using forbidden APIs will notice.

by gcb0 10y ago

blauditore 10y ago

To be fair, that's all most users need, and could also use for desktop OS'. You don't need admin rights to open Facebook in a browser... But it hurts as a power user.

AsyncAwait 10y ago

True, but Termux[1] on android makes this less of a pain. 1 - https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=termux&fdid=com.termux https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=termux&fdid=...

pjmlp 10y ago
I wonder if it still would work in Android 7, with the new restrictions that kill any application that tries to link to non public NDK libraries.
- fjrieiekd 10y ago
  And since Android 4.4, access to external SD cards has been restricted unless you use an annoying API or have a rooted device.

AlexeyBrin 10y ago

> meanwhile, everyone's phone here runs gnu/linux but completely out of reach. everyone bought a computer from an advertising (google) or fashion (apple) company that only runs in kiosk mode. Pretty sure there is no GNU component in iOS which is based on BSD. Also, Android uses only the Linux kernel, not even close to a GNU/Linux system.

jokr004 10y ago
I feel like probably half the people who insist on calling it "GNU/Linux" don't even really understand why.
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  Same as the people who insist on calling it Linux when talking about the desktop.
  - TallGuyShort 10y ago
    If you wouldn't mind referring to the desktop by it's more appropriate name, K/Mozilla/Apache/GNU/Linux, that would be great.
    - AsyncAwait 10y ago
      You forgot C in there :-) Anyway, this misses the point of the FSF in insisting on calling it GNU/Linux. The point of the GNU is not to name every application that runs on your system, but to say that you're running the Linux kernel AND the GNU userland to have a functional system, i.e. that GNU is the second half of a complete system, GNU/Linux. You don't need Apache to have a functional system. You do need libc etc. to have a functional system and when these are provided by GNU, I think it's fair to call it GNU/Linux.
      - xj9 10y ago
        yeah, okay. --- No, Richard, it's 'Linux', not 'GNU/Linux'. The most important contributions that the FSF made to Linux were the creation of the GPL and the GCC compiler. Those are fine and inspired products. GCC is a monumental achievement and has earned you, RMS, and the Free Software Foundation countless kudos and much appreciation. Following are some reasons for you to mull over, including some already answered in your FAQ. One guy, Linus Torvalds, used GCC to make his operating system (yes, Linux is an OS -- more on this later). He named it 'Linux' with a little help from his friends. Why doesn't he call it GNU/Linux? Because he wrote it, with more help from his friends, not you. You named your stuff, I named my stuff -- including the software I wrote using GCC -- and Linus named his stuff. The proper name is Linux because Linus Torvalds says so. Linus has spoken. Accept his authority. To do otherwise is to become a nag. You don't want to be known as a nag, do you? (An operating system) != (a distribution). Linux is an operating system. By my definition, an operating system is that software which provides and limits access to hardware resources on a computer. That definition applies wherever you see Linux in use. However, Linux is usually distributed with a collection of utilities and applications to make it easily configurable as a desktop system, a server, a development box, or a graphics workstation, or whatever the user needs. In such a configuration, we have a Linux (based) distribution. Therein lies your strongest argument for the unwieldy title 'GNU/Linux' (when said bundled software is largely from the FSF). Go bug the distribution makers on that one. Take your beef to Red Hat, Mandrake, and Slackware. At least there you have an argument. Linux alone is an operating system that can be used in various applications without any GNU software whatsoever. Embedded applications come to mind as an obvious example. Next, even if we limit the GNU/Linux title to the GNU-based Linux distributions, we run into another obvious problem. XFree86 may well be more important to a particular Linux installation than the sum of all the GNU contributions. More properly, shouldn't the distribution be called XFree86/Linux? Or, at a minimum, XFree86/GNU/Linux? Of course, it would be rather arbitrary to draw the line there when many other fine contributions go unlisted. Yes, I know you've heard this one before. Get used to it. You'll keep hearing it until you can cleanly counter it. You seem to like the lines-of-code metric. There are many lines of GNU code in a typical Linux distribution. You seem to suggest that (more LOC) == (more important). However, I submit to you that raw LOC numbers do not directly correlate with importance. I would suggest that clock cycles spent on code is a better metric. For example, if my system spends 90% of its time executing XFree86 code, XFree86 is probably the single most important collection of code on my system. Even if I loaded ten times as many lines of useless bloatware on my system and I never excuted that bloatware, it certainly isn't more important code than XFree86. Obviously, this metric isn't perfect either, but LOC really, really sucks. Please refrain from using it ever again in supporting any argument. Last, I'd like to point out that we Linux and GNU users shouldn't be fighting among ourselves over naming other people's software. But what the heck, I'm in a bad mood now. I think I'm feeling sufficiently obnoxious to make the point that GCC is so very famous and, yes, so very useful only because Linux was developed. In a show of proper respect and gratitude, shouldn't you and everyone refer to GCC as 'the Linux compiler'? Or at least, 'Linux GCC'? Seriously, where would your masterpiece be without Linux? Languishing with the HURD? If there is a moral buried in this rant, maybe it is this: Be grateful for your abilities and your incredible success and your considerable fame. Continue to use that success and fame for good, not evil. Also, be especially grateful for Linux' huge contribution to that success. You, RMS, the Free Software Foundation, and GNU software have reached their current high profiles largely on the back of Linux. You have changed the world. Now, go forth and don't be a nag. Thanks for listening.

eddieroger 10y ago

I spend a good part of my day in one variant of a gnu/linux environment, whether it be development of apps (for which I use GNU/Emacs), or on a server administering stuff (which technically isn't gnu/linux), so having my fashion phone in kiosk mode feels pretty good, actually. I think I'd be pretty unhappy if the stuff I count as "work" in my mind bled over in to my personal life, and I love not having to jump through the same types of hoops I do for work just to make a simple phone call or send a text message.

marcosdumay 10y ago

My 90's self feels quite good knowing there are enough computers to hack among the big ones (and card sized, and the one on my TV (yes, with GNU/Linux), and the ones I rent...). It would be great if my phone was completely under my control. But my priorities are getting my communication protocols back, and avoiding losing my desktops and servers. The phone can wait.

davexunit 10y ago

Unfortunately there is no GNU on iOS or Android. Every open a terminal on an Android phone and wonder why things just don't feel like the GNU/Linux systems you're used to? It's because it uses things like busybox instead of the GNU coreutils.

pekk 10y ago
Not to mention what happens if you decide you would like to start writing a little program (as one does on a real Unix system) and realize that you are in a sandbox designed to prevent you from doing that unless you use all the official SDK stuff through Dalvik, which has a completely different flavor and set of capabilities. Sure, I have a very awesome computer that cost hundreds of dollars but I can't really use it because... somebody said so?
mastax 10y ago
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.termux https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.termux Zsh, bash, make, clang, SSH, Python, vim... Their package selection is small compared to debian, but still quite nice.
- serge2k 10y ago
  being able to install it doesn't make it part of android.

gurkendoktor 10y ago

My 90s self had a Super Nintendo for which the SDK was out of reach. Now I can write apps for my iPhone, iPad and Apple TV. My desktop machine is still a desktop machine.

gcb0 10y ago
Sorry to hear about your nintendo limiting your childhood. I did have a Master System, but still, I mostly played with my father's MSX and XT computers. Which had better games anyuway, and where i learned to edit hex values and cheat on my save games and later on to write simple qbasic games.

gtk40 10y ago

What phones run GNU/Linux? Most run Android (Linux kernel, but no GNU in sight) or iOS (based on BSD, maybe with GNU?).

JunkDNA 10y ago

Feels great because my 90's self can look into the future of the early 2000's and see what Windows was like when malware first erupted on the scene and ordinary people were totally unprepared to handle it. I am happy to trade my freedom to tinker for that to not be a problem so I can do actual things I need to with my phone.

zdkl 10y ago
Kind of a weird argument. Has malware prevalence really fallen so much? It feels like someone's going to start selling AV software for browsers soon.

nix0n 10y ago

My 90s self never wanted a PC in his pocket, he wished his iPod and flip phone could be one device.

mhurron 10y ago
Exactly. I didn't buy a pocket computer, I bought a phone that can play music files and show a map. When I wanted a general purpose computer, I bought a general purpose computer.

jsz0 10y ago

> everyone bought a computer from an advertising (google) or fashion (apple) company that only runs in kiosk mode. This type of attitude just discourages people from ever wanting to leave the so-called kiosk mode.

redblacktree 10y ago

> how does your 90s self feel about that? It's a knife to the heart when you put it that way.

gcb0 10y ago
:D

pjmlp 10y ago

My phones run Java/Linux and Windows Phone. The Linux fork used on Android and the set of official NDK APIs, make it so that Google can at any Android release change the kernel for something else and only OEMs or devs using forbidden APIs will notice.