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Fun thought experiment. An alien race landed on earth and demands to play a game of Go. We only get to play one game with them. If they win, our planet is dest

Fun thought experiment. An alien race landed on earth and demands to play a game of Go. We only get to play one game with them. If they win, our planet is destroyed. Who would you trust to play for the human race if this scenario happened tomorrow? Lee Sedol or AlphaGo? Remember that we do not completely understand how AlphaGo reasons, it is still a black box to us.

tempestn 10y ago
Lee Sedol is also a black box, no? Also, one shot for the survival of humanity is very different from billions of iterations of driving situations every day for the foreseeable future. A complete understanding of the system is much more valuable when you have the opportunity to iterate. I'm not necessarily arguing for one approach; just saying that the analogy doesn't really apply to the case at hand.
- lucidrains 10y ago
  Yea the analogy doesn't hold. I was simply probing at the author's criticism (or fear) of deep learning as a flawed approach given the resulting model is pretty opaque. To be honest, I would have felt the same way two years ago. Seeing all these recent advances in the field has slowly changed my mentality.
- cscurmudgeon 10y ago
  > Lee Sedol is also a black box, no? Last time I checked we can talk to Lee Seedol and ask him to explain things. We can ask him questions. We can have an intelligent conversation with him.
  - nradov 10y ago
    Human explanations for their decisions are often rationalizations after the fact. The explanations don't necessarily accurately represent how the decisions were actually made. Most decisions are made subconsciously based on intuition and emotion. So that intelligent conversion might not have any real significance.
    - tempestn 10y ago
      Ya, that was my thinking. And likewise with the sort of hybrid, constrained neural net setup we're discussing here, you could likewise 'discuss' the constraints, inputs, perhaps even the thought process to some extent. But like a human, it couldn't tell you the exact causal path taken to arrive at the decision.
    - cscurmudgeon 10y ago
      My general point applies to human thinking in general not just Go. Example: Would you fly on a plane designed ultimately by a human vs an impenetrable black box? Also there is a spectrum. Let us not pretend otherwise. 1. One end: No explanations. 2. Middle: Seometimes false explanataions and sometimes true explanations. 3. Other end: Always true explanations. Are we really saying the middle is completely useless?
      - nradov 10y ago
        Yes I would fly in any large airplane which is properly certified for scheduled commercial airline service, regardless of how it was designed. The FAA has earned our trust and has a good safety record so if they tell me the design is satisfactory then I would believe them. I also wouldn't take the risk of flying in any non-certified experimental aircraft, again regardless of who or what designed it. We have no way to determine whether an explanation is true, false, or simply a post-hoc rationalization. We like to believe that we can, but we're just fooling ourselves.
        cscurmudgeon 10y ago
        > We have no way to determine whether an explanation is true, false, or simply a post-hoc rationalization If we have no way of determining whether something is true or false, then I can say the same thing about your own statement quoted above. I can just say it is false and go on with my life. I sincerely hope you realize the obvious self contradiction :D Logic 101. :)
        nradov 10y ago
  - Pica_soO 10y ago
    The Black Box that can invent stories to give the illusion it understands it sub-conscious processes? How comforting.
    - marcosdumay 10y ago
      I remember an article here on HN about somebody that trained a neural network to explain the decisions of another NN. I think it's fitting :)
    - cscurmudgeon 10y ago
      Do we really need to understand the whole stack that goes into a decission? That means we have to start with physics.
rollthehard6 10y ago
AlphaGo for the simple reason that, in that scenario any human would be absolutely bricking and would be pretty much bound to make an unforced error as a result.
marcosdumay 10y ago
If emotions weren't a problem? Lee Sedol. If adaptability is the metric, machines still didn't beat humans. AlphaGo was trained on some set of movements (as were the other AIs that helped train it). It is not a pure game theory construction, so there is no reason to expect it to be as good against an alien as it is against a person.

tempestn 10y ago

Lee Sedol is also a black box, no? Also, one shot for the survival of humanity is very different from billions of iterations of driving situations every day for the foreseeable future. A complete understanding of the system is much more valuable when you have the opportunity to iterate. I'm not necessarily arguing for one approach; just saying that the analogy doesn't really apply to the case at hand.

lucidrains 10y ago
Yea the analogy doesn't hold. I was simply probing at the author's criticism (or fear) of deep learning as a flawed approach given the resulting model is pretty opaque. To be honest, I would have felt the same way two years ago. Seeing all these recent advances in the field has slowly changed my mentality.
cscurmudgeon 10y ago
> Lee Sedol is also a black box, no? Last time I checked we can talk to Lee Seedol and ask him to explain things. We can ask him questions. We can have an intelligent conversation with him.
- nradov 10y ago
  Human explanations for their decisions are often rationalizations after the fact. The explanations don't necessarily accurately represent how the decisions were actually made. Most decisions are made subconsciously based on intuition and emotion. So that intelligent conversion might not have any real significance.
  - tempestn 10y ago
    Ya, that was my thinking. And likewise with the sort of hybrid, constrained neural net setup we're discussing here, you could likewise 'discuss' the constraints, inputs, perhaps even the thought process to some extent. But like a human, it couldn't tell you the exact causal path taken to arrive at the decision.
  - cscurmudgeon 10y ago
    My general point applies to human thinking in general not just Go. Example: Would you fly on a plane designed ultimately by a human vs an impenetrable black box? Also there is a spectrum. Let us not pretend otherwise. 1. One end: No explanations. 2. Middle: Seometimes false explanataions and sometimes true explanations. 3. Other end: Always true explanations. Are we really saying the middle is completely useless?
    - nradov 10y ago
      Yes I would fly in any large airplane which is properly certified for scheduled commercial airline service, regardless of how it was designed. The FAA has earned our trust and has a good safety record so if they tell me the design is satisfactory then I would believe them. I also wouldn't take the risk of flying in any non-certified experimental aircraft, again regardless of who or what designed it. We have no way to determine whether an explanation is true, false, or simply a post-hoc rationalization. We like to believe that we can, but we're just fooling ourselves.
      - cscurmudgeon 10y ago
        > We have no way to determine whether an explanation is true, false, or simply a post-hoc rationalization If we have no way of determining whether something is true or false, then I can say the same thing about your own statement quoted above. I can just say it is false and go on with my life. I sincerely hope you realize the obvious self contradiction :D Logic 101. :)
        nradov 10y ago
- Pica_soO 10y ago
  The Black Box that can invent stories to give the illusion it understands it sub-conscious processes? How comforting.
  - marcosdumay 10y ago
    I remember an article here on HN about somebody that trained a neural network to explain the decisions of another NN. I think it's fitting :)
  - cscurmudgeon 10y ago
    Do we really need to understand the whole stack that goes into a decission? That means we have to start with physics.

rollthehard6 10y ago

AlphaGo for the simple reason that, in that scenario any human would be absolutely bricking and would be pretty much bound to make an unforced error as a result.

marcosdumay 10y ago

If emotions weren't a problem? Lee Sedol. If adaptability is the metric, machines still didn't beat humans. AlphaGo was trained on some set of movements (as were the other AIs that helped train it). It is not a pure game theory construction, so there is no reason to expect it to be as good against an alien as it is against a person.