26 ms·
Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players
- MR4D 10y agoThis is impressive. According to the article, the bot has not yet lost. I think at the end of 2017, we may have to say that computers have conquered Go. Interesting that the timing is 20 years after mastering chess.
- tux3 10y agoIt's important to note that the games were played on a fast-paced "blitz" time setting where AIs are particularly strong compared to humans. I can already barely follow what is going on on the board, so I'm sure watching slower paced games against pros would be interesting.
- codehotter 10y agoThe games were played with 5 seconds per move for the computer and 30 seconds per move for the human. (Where unused time is lost, not saved). I am not sure if slower time settings favoring the human is still true -- AlphaGo works a little bit differently from traditional computer go programs. Earlier versions of AlphaGo against Fan Hui, the slower official matches were 5-0 in favor of AlphaGo, whereas in the unofficial blitz games, Fan Hui managed to win some games.
- pmontra 10y agoThe series is over with a score of 60-0. You can find all the games at http://tieba.baidu.com/p/4922688212?pn=1 http://tieba.baidu.com/p/4922688212?pn=1 It's chinese but the pictures are universal and the comments don't really matter much. By the way, Google Translate makes a pretty horrible work at translating those pages. I think they need to add some more DeepMind to it :-) To be fair, they probably don't have much training data for the jargon of the game of go or of any other game.
- rshm 10y agoOne example: 구리 (Roman : guli for player Gu Li), is translated to Copper (Literal Word meaning). One area google translate could look at is the name identification from the context and using roman instead of literal translation.
- guelo 10y agoHow to know if Master is white or black in each game?
- pmontra 10y agoAfter the diagram there is the Sgf file with the moves. PB is player black and PW is player white. AlphaGo is Magister in the first 20 games and Master in the last 40. Two accounts on two different servers.
- visarga 10y ago> By the way, Google Translate makes a pretty horrible work at translating those pages. I think they need to add some more DeepMind to it :-) I think they made an announcement about that. > Found in translation: More accurate, fluent sentences in Google Translate https://blog.google/products/translate/found-translation-more-accurate-fluent-sentences-google-translate/ https://blog.google/products/translate/found-translation-mor... So it doesn't seem to work so well.
- partycoder 10y agoIt would be good to start experimenting with handicap stones to understand how many stones stronger the bot is. http://senseis.xmp.net/?Handicap http://senseis.xmp.net/?Handicap Also experimenting with a new ranking system beyond 9 dan.
- hwc 10y agoElo Ratings are unbounded.
- partycoder 10y agoYes but players are usually presented by their rank, e.g: Ke Jie 9P, Lee Sedol 9P. Then, professional dans in some Go associations are granted by total wins over their career rather than relative strength to another rank (e.g: Japan).
- hyperpape 10y agoThere is already a wide range of strength among 9p players. In addition, once a player reaches 9p, they never lose it, so it includes players in their prime as well as players who have declined.
- partycoder 10y agoYes, the ranking system you refer to is the one based on total wins over a player career and doesn't consider loses like ELO or other rating systems do. http://senseis.xmp.net/?NihonKiInNewPromotionSystem http://senseis.xmp.net/?NihonKiInNewPromotionSystem Fernando Aguilar, a 6 dan amateur from Argentina (http://senseis.xmp.net/?FernandoAguilar http://senseis.xmp.net/?FernandoAguilar) defeated 2 Nihon Kiin 9 professional dans (Hasegawa Sunao and Yo Kagen), which is unexpected given the substantial rank difference.
- hyperpape 10y agoTwo things: 1) The two 9p professionals you mentioned achieved 9p status before the new promotion system you linked to. The new standards are much more stringent (though still based on lifetime achievement). 2) The standards differ by country. All the major countries now give out 9p ranks sparingly, but I think China especially may be quite difficult.
- overhere2000 10y agoWe will need a Kobayashi Maru exam for this.
- dfan 10y agoOne thing that isn't made clear in this writeup is that Master plays in a very nonhuman style, as opposed to the version of AlphaGo that beat Lee Sedol, which mostly played like a strong human except for a few surprising moves. My first guess when I saw Master's games was that it was a program like AlphaGo that had its policy network trained from scratch rather than being bootstrapped by being given the goal of imitating the moves of strong humans. I'm eager to find out whether that was the case or whether it just moved away from human-like play during a very long self-play phase. It really is a bit scary to see. I would not have guessed that human strategy was that deficient. Computer chess programs still tend to play with human-like strategy (partially because humans have coded their evaluation functions!) but godlike tactics. Master is not really playing like a human at all.
- halflings 10y agoCan you give some examples of what you consider non-human? Really curious since I don't know much about common strategies in Go.
- dfan 10y agoHuman moves tend to fit a narrative and be explainable, although often for very concrete reasons. For example: "I am sketching out territory while attacking an opponent group." "I am making my group safe so that I will not have to worry about its life while I accomplish other strategic goals." "I am making a very strong group so that I can use it to make it harder for my opponent to accomplish anything." Master, on the other hand, will sometimes seemingly just plop stones down in the middle of the board in a way that is hard to assign a narrative to. One can list a bunch of ways that the stone might come in handy in various futures, but it's too "vague" a move to be played with confidence by a human professional go player. Of course, human strategies may change in response...
- jorblumesea 10y agoThis is usually called the metagame and evolves over time. My guess is that due to these unseen tactics the metagame will change and human playstyle will become more AI-like and adapt to the changing circumstances. The real question is whether people would be able to keep pace with rapidly changing AI playstyles?
- koolba 10y agoThis seems like the beginnings of the plot of an anime I'd want to watch. Season two would probably start with the developer's getting complacent and a Chinese AI entering the scene.
- sp332 10y agoSeason three would follow "Colossus: The Forbin Project" with the two bots demanding to be linked together, joining forces, and taking over the world.
- jaxondu 10y agoReally hope to see one machine against another. In future we'd probably have game tournament of AI machines. Example my tensorflow-build machine against your openai-build machine in a StarCraft game.
- kefka 10y agoCorewars, where the program is written by a neural net.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Ajedi32 10y agoThere's a pretty interesting Starcraft AI tournament going on right now actually, though I'm not certain whether any of the bots are using deep learning techniques: http://sscaitournament.com/ http://sscaitournament.com/
- Lambdanaut 10y agoExactly that has already been going on since 2010 :) There's a livestream of bots facing off here: https://www.twitch.tv/certicky https://www.twitch.tv/certicky
- snovv_crash 10y agoSounds like RoboCode.
- emj 10y agoThe Master bot was discussed a bit in on Google Deepmind 2016 round up: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13312219#13314592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13312219#13314592 ~60 wins atm.
- jonmc12 10y agoInteresting reddit discussion before reveal. Assesses bot identity and gameplay: https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/5l3l7e/chinese_ai_crushing_pros_on_fox_server/ https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/5l3l7e/chinese_ai_cr...
- dwaltrip 10y agoThe reddit thread also links to more interesting discussion on the board lifein19x19: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&p=215117#p215117 http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&p=215117#p21...
- nullnilvoid 10y agoIt seems that AlphaGo has got even better since when it defeated Lee Sedol. This time, AlphaGo is undefeated against other top players. However, it also gives other players a chance to practice against AlphaGo and finds weaknesses in AlphaGo, which is super important for any competition.
- 21 10y agoIt would be super-weird if AlphaGo became worse that the previous version.
- daveguy 10y agoNeural networks have a bad habit of regressing. When training continues they tend to replace earlier skill with newer skill.
- 21 10y agoThe team would surely detect that. In the original paper they even mention this issue, and as a safe-guard they also test later networks against previous versions.
- daveguy 10y agoTrue, they are aware and monitor for it. Just pointing out that it's not a super weird thing to happen with a NN. In fact it's a super normal thing that has to be continuously monitored.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- natosaichek 10y agoI'm pretty sure this[1] is the archives of the bot's play. You can download the SGF files of the matches from there and view them online at EidoGo[2] [1] http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=Master http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=Master [2] http://eidogo.com/upload http://eidogo.com/upload
- hyperpape 10y agoIt was not on KGS, but Tygem and Fox, which are Asian servers.
- igravious 10y agoMarcel Grünauer over on LifeIn19x19 has made a compilation of all 60 of Master's games. Found it just then! (A zip archive of 60 sgf[1] files) I _think_ that's all of them as of now. http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=13935 http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=13935 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Game_Format https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Game_Format ps: The Japanese term for a game record for the game of Go is kifu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kifu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kifu Hence http://gokifu.com/ http://gokifu.com/ which tracks all pro games (and then some, I think)
- natosaichek 10y agoAh! Thanks for your evidence in support of cunningham's law[1]. I'm delighted to have access to the real deal. [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law
- oconnor0 10y ago> Go is regarded as the most complex board game ever invented I'm not sure that's an accurate statement.
- mrob 10y agoFor example, Arimaa, which has a more complex ruleset and a bigger game tree. It was designed to be difficult for AI, but in practice the complexity was difficult for humans too, and AI was developed to beat the best humans using classical chess AI techniques and some clever heuristics. Go is "most complex" only when measured by difficulty of implementing a AI to beat the best humans.
- waqf 10y agoIf the human race had collectively had only a decade of Go-playing experience (as was the case with Arimaa), it might have been possible for an AI coded with "classical techniques" to defeat them. (To be specific, my guess is that we'd have been at the amateur-dan level, and the initial MCTS revolution would have been enough for the computers to win.)
- lgas 10y agoA counter example would be the easiest way to disprove it.
- flatpointer23 10y agoCones of Dunshire? :)
- lgas 10y agoI haven't met a formidable Cones of Dunshire computer player, AI or otherwise yet, so for now I remain unconvinced :)
- knodi123 10y agowhat about "most complex board game that is more than a few centuries old"?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- WestCoastJustin 10y agoWonder when we will see AI tutors appear? Seems like there is a massive potential to train an AI super player then have it teach you. Does anyone know of such tools yet? Guess there are probably many AI augmented things we use all the time (Google Search) but just don't know it. Fascinating to think.
- burkaman 10y agoThere was a recent post here about a new LiChess feature that identifies mistakes in your (or someone else's) games, prompts you to look for a better move, and tells you the best move if you can't figure it out. I think this is a form of AI tutoring. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13241669 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13241669
- WestCoastJustin 10y agoVery cool. Thanks!
- mormegil 10y agoThe same feature has been in GNU Backgammon (and other programs, I guess) for a long time. Also, it allows you to request you or the AI get good or bad dice rolls, which is an interesting training option.
- Deimorz 10y agoSome go programs already have features going in that direction, where they can look at a particular board state and show you which moves they think are best from that position. People have been starting to use them to review their games to see how an AI stronger than them would have played differently. For example Leela (a free program) does this, and can display it with a "heatmap" style: https://sjeng.org/leela.html https://sjeng.org/leela.html Crazy Stone Deep Learning ($80 USD) has some similar analysis/hint features: http://www.unbalance.co.jp/igo/eng/ http://www.unbalance.co.jp/igo/eng/
- Splines 10y agoI'm not an expert, but I imagine these AIs attack the game using methods that just don't work with humans - predicting long deep branches of the game that are impossible to keep in your (well, at least my) head. The way I recall building simple game AIs is to create a board evaluator, then build a game tree, prune as necessary, and min-max as system constraints allow. I'm sure "real" AIs are much more sophisticated but I don't know how much of what it does can be taught to a human.
- amelius 10y agoDid any team reproduce the AlphaGo technology yet?
- osti 10y agoHere is the facebook version: https://github.com/facebookresearch/darkforestGo https://github.com/facebookresearch/darkforestGo And here's another public attempt, not sure about the progress. https://github.com/Rochester-NRT/RocAlphaGo https://github.com/Rochester-NRT/RocAlphaGo
- btilly 10y agoWe know that Master can figure out what it would play. We also know that its predecessor had a model for what moves a human professional would be likely to play. What I would find truly fascinating is if Master could divide moves that it plays, which professionals wouldn't, into groups based on a similar internal categorization of the moves. And then see if human minds can look at any of groups and come up with a human understandable principle that humans had been missing about the game. The point here is not so much to improve human play (though it presumably would do so), but as a step towards having an AI that can break down its internal model into principles that can be used to train another AI to learn those principles. Just like how a human expert can learn to turn expertise into something that can be taught to other humans. This has several potential benefits. The first is that human experience suggests that this type of introspection tends to improve our own competency. The second is that we could have a single AI trained by multiple specialist AIs to get a compact "generalist". And the third is that this is a path towards having AIs that can discover things then teach them to humans. The whole idea might fail horribly. But I'd like to see it given a shot.
- cLeEOGPw 10y agoYour described method of understanding his moves might work for some moves, but there will inevitably be moves that are just a sum of so many different probabilities that are so far down the road that even looking at the result nobody would be able to actually recognize such a move on slightly different board. At some point, if this method would be used, it would probably require a second AI that would help understand the main AI, because the primary "explanation" would still be too complex and/or subtle for us to comprehend.
- btilly 10y agoObviously "automatically extract the principles in an understandable format" is a long term and probably unachievable goal. However there is hope that cluster analysis on data about the internal reasoning process can successfully identify groups of positions that "seem to share a common principle". Success in that is a first step towards lots of interesting things.
- rdlecler1 10y agoI'd like to see if a small team of the worlds best go players could beat AG.
- codehotter 10y agoHow much stronger is a team of top players than its strongest member? I wonder what the best way of coordination would be. Perhaps they can identify several promising lines and each player chooses one variation to calculate more deeply. From my own experience playing (as a weak amateur), I feel I'm rarely able to think so systematically -- often ideas I discover while contemplating one line are tried in entirely different variations, so it would perhaps take some getting used to before a team can function optimally.
- tel 10y agoThere's a very interesting book called The Go Consultants (http://www.slateandshell.com/SSJF003.html http://www.slateandshell.com/SSJF003.html) which describes how professions have worked together during an extended time consultation game (2 v 2).
- visarga 10y ago> I wonder what the best way of coordination would be. They would have to use a software to divide the search tree between them and collect their judgements. I'm wondering how would a mixed team of AIs and humans fare? For example, a team of 1 AI and 4 humans against a team of similar setup. Humans could be assigned to judge parts of the search tree and their inputs aggregated by the AI.
- onetimeacc33 10y ago..wonder when they're gonna "reveal" their secret orwellian its-all-for-the-good-of-humanity retina-scan-ml-trainingcamp(yes, reads almost like german) project from that UK-ish part of the world..
- chrisp_dc 10y agoAnyone know the origin of the name they chose? Did they name their bot after the rapper Percy Miller?
- 21 10y agoI seriously doubt the Percy Miller connection. AlphaGo is the best player in the world, so a name like Master fits it :) They also probably didn't want to choose a human looking name which could mislead people, and instead chose one which could presumably be either of a human or an AI.
- sweetjesus 10y agoif their goal was to reveal what they were doing to the world, this is a fine way to go about it and build some anticipation and get a PR splash. if their goal was to train the best go-bot, they could have had it play not to win but to go down to the wire with very strong players but frequently lose.* Experienced players might have identified it as a bot, but would have dismissed it as "not good enough yet" *especially as per the recent story that children don't learn when they win, so trains yourself without training your opponents :)
- known 10y agoCan AI beat Fed?