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Cheap and Painless eGPU Thrills on a 2013 MacBook Pro

238 points by archagon 10y ago

andreiw 10y ago
Does anyone know if the GPU can then be passed thru to VBox or Fusion?
- Synaesthesia 10y ago
  If it works in Mac OS sure, although of course the performance won't be as good. The author seems to only be running windows for these tests
- oneplane 10y ago
  No, this cannot be done. In theory, it should be possible with xhyve in the future, but at this moment, no PCIe or TB passing is possible because of the lack of support on the hypervisor side on desktop operating systems.
  - rincebrain 10y ago
    What about these setups makes them more complicated to support than simple PCIe passthrough? Because PCIe passthrough is definitely a thing you can do currently in several virtualization implementations. (Unless you mean you can't do it while also using it as a GPU in the desktop, which is true.)
jankotek 10y ago
I think you could fit entire gaming PC in that little box. There are low profile gaming cards.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- archagon 10y ago
  Yeah, though I imagine it would have to be a pretty weak gaming PC due to cooling issues.
  - jsheard 10y ago
    Yep, you're not going to cram a proper gaming PC into 160inch³. AFAIK the smallest case designed for gaming GPUs is the Dan A4 at 433inch³. https://www.dan-cases.com/dana4.php https://www.dan-cases.com/dana4.php
    - xanderstrike 10y ago
      There's also the NFC S4 Mini, which only supports half length GPUs (Gigabyte makes a good 1070). It 4.3L or 262in³. Both of these options are certainly smaller than a macbook plus an enclosure though.
      - jsheard 10y ago
        The S4 Mini is news to me, it looks very nice. It does use an external power brick though, unlike the A4 which is all internal. Zotac just announced a mini GTX1080 so you could get some amazing performance density in the S4. http://www.anandtech.com/show/10947/zotac-announces-geforce-gtx-1080-for-miniitx-pcs http://www.anandtech.com/show/10947/zotac-announces-geforce-...
      - lewisl9029 10y ago
        The S4 Mini does look really awesome! It almost makes me want to build another desktop! However, having 1 computer that does everything still has a lot of value for me over having to context switch between a desktop and laptop and constantly worry about keeping everything in sync like I do right now. So my next machine is still going to have to be a laptop + eGPU combo.
    - chx 10y ago
      https://www.zotac.com/us/product/mini_pcs/magnus-en1060 https://www.zotac.com/us/product/mini_pcs/magnus-en1060 this https://www.zotac.com/us/product/mini_pcs/magnus-en1070 https://www.zotac.com/us/product/mini_pcs/magnus-en1070 these are 2.6L and sport a GTX 1060 and even a GTX 1070.
slantyyz 10y ago
In case anyone's wondering about doing it with the new 2016 Macbook Pros, there's a video about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvAB3U5umug&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvAB3U5umug&t=1s
dbg31415 10y ago
This is great. Thanks!
Uehreka 10y ago
This is really neat! I'm in a similar situation (Late 2013 Retina MacBook Pro 13") and have been doing some research on deep learning and neural networks. Has anyone had success using eGPUs with things like CUDA and CUDNN? Is TB2's lower bandwidth a bottleneck that would keep you from using a really beefy eGPU for these purposes?
- rincebrain 10y ago
  TB2 is akin to using one of those x16 slots that's wired to x4 (or worse, since if you're using a Gen3 x16 GPU, you'd be running at Gen2 x4, which would be an eightfold reduction). It'll depend on your workload, but generally, it is going to be visibly slower than the "baseline" performance for any high-utilization workload.
  - AlphaSite 10y ago
    Typically x8 can be used with near zero performance loss in many/most workloads, and withGen3 x4 should be fine again.
- masklinn 10y ago
  > Is TB2's lower bandwidth a bottleneck that would keep you from using a really beefy eGPU for these purposes? What limits you is the power input and cooling capabilities of your TB2 box. A 1080 has a 180W TDP (before O/C), so you need to feed it up to 180We and dissipate that much heat, a Titan X increases that to 250W. TFA went with a 1050 because it only has a 75W TDP, and that could be achieved with their enclosure (by swapping out the power brick, the "out of the box" version only handles 30W TDP). After that, it's mostly a matter of feeding the GPU enough stuff to do, giving it a small number of expensive tasks will utilise the limited bandwidth better than the reverse, which is why the efficiency of eGPU (TB2, but also TB3) increases as you increase rendering quality and the like (compared to internal) e.g. you might get 70% of internal at low settings and 90% at high.
- Aeolos 10y ago
  When using a single GPU, as is the case here, you will not be able to saturate a TB2 slot in any reasonable deep learning workload. For multiple GPUs, sure, PCIe performance matters, but for single GPUs it is not a bottleneck for any practical scenario I can think of. Right now, I am working with large volumetric datasets (think 100+GB) and even then I am only seeing ~200MB/s peak transfers, which are well within the capabilities of TB2. In my experience, large datasets are bottlenecked by the hard drive, which is not a problem for modern rMBPs. Edit: I am using a 2.5GB/s NVMe SSD, so the 200MB/s is the raw bandwidth used when mass-evaluating batches on the GPU. For training, I am seeing around 70-80MB/s sustained.
smiled0g 10y ago
If GPU manufacturers can make an eGPU that's standalone and connect to PC/Laptop via Thunderbolt3(USB-C), that'd be pretty neat especially if they can make it <$100 more expensive than the cost of GPU in PC version. I can see a large portion of people who doesn't want to spend $300+ on an external GPU box just to be able to upgrade the $200 card inside.
- slantyyz 10y ago
  < $100 might be tough. You've got to have a decently made chassis to accommodate and cool a full-sized card and a meaty power supply for the latest and greatest GPUs. And that's before you add any docking functionality for extra ports. The cheapest thing I've seen to date is the Alienware Amp which sells for around $150 but uses Alienware's proprietary port, which IIRC, is a bit slower than TB3.
  - hendersoon 10y ago
    I haven't seen them tested side by side but actually both TB3 and the Alienware Amplifier offer 4 lanes of PCIe gen3. So they should be pretty much identical. As for the lower-end pricing, it's very feasible to fit a laptop-oriented MXM GPU moodule in a lower power envelope. The GTX 1060 mobile variant only draws 80 watts, and the GTX 1050 mobile sips power at 50 watts. They do obviously need active cooling, but not a LOT of active cooling. Note that the 10-series of GPUs are not cut-down versions like previous generations. The 1050ti mobile is just as fast as the 1050ti desktop card at same clocks, they bin the chips so it can work with less power. It's very reasonable to imagine a sealed laptop dock (as opposed to a full enclosure) with a 50 watt 1050ti inside selling for $300. Comin' soon!
    - lewisl9029 10y ago
      Another poster mentioned the Wolfe earlier in the thread, which has everything I want in an eGPU box: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304774 The price is a bit steep for the hardware it offers, but it looks super portable and just powerful enough for my use cases. Too bad it's apparently become vaporware.
jbverschoor 10y ago
One of the things I imagined and researched for thunerbolt was this. Unfortunately still quite expensive. Only due to supply/demand. I hopes apple would offer an external gpu to use with their low powered laptop gpus
kevinsimper 10y ago
Wow, what a well explained blog and pretty impressive that it doesn't need more hacking to get it to work! EGPU is really an exciting future!
eltoozero 10y ago
Fantastic write up, I've been meaning to attempt this very thing having found the same thunderbolt enclosure and wondering why nobody had used a "low-end" GTX rather than fussing with ATX PSU wiring. Not that I'm a stranger to hacking a PSU, but my MacBook is not a RepRap.
- seanp2k2 10y ago
  Eh, because he still had to hunt down a kinda sketchy China PSU from Amazon and hope that it could do the rates wattage, spent twice as much on the enclosure as the GPU, etc for a ~3.5x upgrade. I'm guessing that for most people, if they're considering this, the few hundred extra to get as much performance as you can out of it makes sense. Rigging up an ATX PSU isn't too hard, and one could put it all into a SFF desktop case if you care about it looking nice. Apparently TB3 enclosures are coming which also address all of these shortcomings except price.
Lio 10y ago
An alternative would be the Wolfe GPU[1] I really wish we had an Apple "firing on all cylinders" that released commercial products like this. As a business I'm sure the current product line generates the right numbers in someone's spreadsheet but to me it's just so ...dull. For the first time since 2006 I haven't updated to the latest macOS and have no plans to. I've seen nothing compelling in it compared to El Capitan. I wish Apple had better OpenGL or Vulcan (for cross platform games) or eGPU support for internal laptop displays. Instead we have Metal. So far I've not seen an example of a AAA macOS game that actually supports it. Then again I wish Apple would add an undo feature for the auto"correct" in iOS but obviously they've got their own agenda. :) [1] https://thewolfe.io https://thewolfe.io
- 9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
  Eh, the Wolfe looks like vaporware at this point. They cancelled their kickstarter and their explanation was vague and unconvincing. Their website hasn't been updated fully to reflect the cancelled kickstarter. I don't see a release timeline anywhere, and there's no mention of how their software works at all (but they do allude to a software key, even though they imply it's plug and play?).
  - Lio 10y ago
    That's sad news. Hopefully the other TB3 enclosures will come along at a reasonable price.
- deckar01 10y ago
  The way you undo autocorrect in iOS is backspace once. The black suggestion tip will appear with your original spelling and tapping it will revert the change.
DigitalJack 10y ago
I really wish laptops would expose the screen to act as a monitor. I'd love an external GPU, but I don't want an external monitor.
- freehunter 10y ago
  There have been so many times in my "IT guy" history I would have loved to use my laptop's screen as a monitor for another computer. It's kind of crazy to have to track down a monitor just to see if a headless desktop is booting properly so I can remotely access it from the laptop that's sitting right next to it. And my current MacBook has a retina screen, compared to the 1440x900 screen on my desktop. I'd LOVE to use my desktop's power on my Macbook's screen.
- jsheard 10y ago
  Non-hacky Thunderbolt 3 eGPUs like the Razer Core do offer a loopback mode where the video feeds back to the laptops screen over the TB3 cable. The extra traffic on the wire does incur a small performance penalty over an external monitor though.
- Swannie 10y ago
  A few Sony Vaio models had that feature circa 2011 (HDMI in to display on the 16" WXGA (?) 1080p screen). I was very close to getting one.
nfriedly 10y ago
On the one hand, this is really cool. But, on the other hand, thats nearly $400 to use a $140 video card with a Macbook that's running Windows and basically behaving as a desktop computer. It wouldn't be that much more expensive to just build a cheap Windows desktop with the same video card - especially when simplicity and low fuss are stated goals. ("Gaming computers" can be incredibly cheap. http://www.logicalincrements.com/ http://www.logicalincrements.com/ starts at $169, and the tier with a GTX 1050 Ti is $528. Also, given the 20% performance penalty from TB2, you could probably drop down a tier or two and still get the same result.)
- seanp2k2 10y ago
  Yeah, a i5-6600k is a bit over $200 right now, and Ryzen is just around the corner. If a TB3 enclosure was, say, $100 (then you'd add an appropriate ATX PSU) and there were reliable, tested cables (and OSX drivers), I'd be all over this. EGPU has been around for a few years now and has yet to take off. Hopefully TB3 will remedy this, but I'm not holding my breath. I think a lot of the blame is on Intel, and hopefully with TB3 now they'll fully support eGPU.
- twblalock 10y ago
  I had to make the same decision in June, and I built a Windows desktop instead of using an external GPU. However, I hope that I won't have to do that again in the future. I'd rather have just one computer for the sake of simplicity. Hopefully external GPUs will become mainstream in a few years.
- archagon 10y ago
  Sure, but there are a few additional factors. First, $400 is the "lazy price". I had some credit card points to spend so I didn't want to waste too much time looking for deals. But if you wait for rebates, buy used, or get the less powerful non-Ti 1050, you could probably get close to $300. Second, I already had a very powerful CPU in my machine (as well as 16GB of RAM) and I didn't want to downgrade. Third, I move around constantly and prefer to keep my belongings to a bare minimum, so a compact eGPU box was far more compelling than even the smallest gaming PC case.
hendersoon 10y ago
This is interesting academically, but I wouldn't buy a hacked-together TB2 enclosure. Thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosures are available now, and are fully supported by Intel and windows. They started at $500 with the Razer Core, but new models like the AkiTiO Node and Powercolor Devil Box are coming in at $299, shipping Q1 2017. More will likely be announced at CES this week. These TB3 enclosures have 400w+ power supplies, better cooling, and are large enough to fit large enthusiast GPUs like the Nvidia GTX 1080. You can plug a TB3 device into a TB2 laptop with a simple adapter. Apple sells theirs for $29; Chinese versions will be cheaper. Depending on what features the manufacturer decides to add to their device, TB3 eGPU enclosures can also charge your laptop, offer USB3 ports, gigabit ethernet, audio jacks, etc. The $299 models tend to be very bare-bones but there's no doubt that competition will lead to cheaper prices and more features over time. Again, watch for more at CES this week. Current list of TB3 eGPU enclosures: AKiTiO Node ($300) https://www.akitio.com/expansion/node https://www.akitio.com/expansion/node Asus ROG XG Station 2 (price unknown) https://www.asus.com/Graphics-Cards-Accessory/ROG-XG-STATION-2/ https://www.asus.com/Graphics-Cards-Accessory/ROG-XG-STATION... BizonBOX 3 ($650, probably because it says it works with Macs) https://bizon-tech.com/us/bizonbox3-egpu.html/ https://bizon-tech.com/us/bizonbox3-egpu.html/ Powercolor Devil Box ($300. Ugly, though.) http://www.powercolor.com/us/products_DevilBox_features.asp?id=1 http://www.powercolor.com/us/products_DevilBox_features.asp?... Razer Core ($500) http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-stealth http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-stealth
- archagon 10y ago
  I would have certainly preferred to do this, but it would have involved a $2000 upgrade first! (Well, barring the TB3-to-TB2 adaptor approach, but I've seen almost no builds doing this.) Also, from what I've seen, there's a lot of uncertainty regarding eGPU support with TB3; many people have reported problems on TechInferno etc., and even AKiTiO is unclear about Mac support. (If you check the specs for the Node, you'll see that Macs are listed as unsupported. Does this mean OSX-only or BootCamp as well? Who knows?) Might be worth waiting a year for things to shake out. Also, I was optimizing in part for cheapness. Truly great gaming cards cost $300 and up, and $400 total was about as much as I was willing to pay for an upgrade.
jwr 10y ago
I wish there was a "target mode" for desktop PCs. Basically a Thunderbolt3 port on the motherboard, which when connected would expose the internal PCI slots over TB3. I don't know if this is even possible, but if so, it would be a fantastic solution. Keep a monster desktop PC for gaming, then shut it down and connect your MacBook and get a powerful computer for work.
- fooker 10y ago
  Won't this be a matter of writing drivers?
  - pcr0 10y ago
    And you'd need a motherboard with Intel's top of the line chipset (Z170) for TB support. Lots of people choose to skimp on the extra $30 or so as the perception at the moment is that it's only necessary for overclocking.
    - hendersoon 10y ago
      Most Z170 motherboards don't have a TB3 port either, as it's an added cost that most people frankly don't give a fig about. In PC motherboards, USB-C has almost total market penetration; TB3 almost zero. TB3 is much more prevalent on PC laptops, but still nowhere near common.
chx 10y ago
Regarding the AC adapter, if you check that Amazon page it says it's by Mini Box and Mini Box itself http://www.mini-box.com/12v-10A-AC-DC-Power-Adapter http://www.mini-box.com/12v-10A-AC-DC-Power-Adapter sells the right adapter.
- archagon 10y ago
  That one looks a bit more legit than the CD120100A I got. Perhaps I will send it back and buy this one instead!
amelius 10y ago
Related question: is it possible yet to connect an external GPU to a Raspberry Pi (where bandwidth is not the bottleneck)? If not, why not?
- Nexxxeh 10y ago
  I would imagine you can, but nothing gaming-grade because you're doing it over USB 2.0 which is even worse on the Pi than it is on the PC.
jansenv 10y ago
This is really amazing! I will be keeping an eye on this tech, as I do a bit of gaming on my mbp. It seems obvious that the prices will continue to fall on these components.
SpicyPython 10y ago
I understand the curiosity aspect of "Can/could I do this?", but from a practical standpoint, why? A gaming desktop is more practical, cheaper, easy to improve and change, etc. But if your problem is mobility, a gaming laptop is probably cheaper to start off with, then it definitely is after the external gpu.
- archagon 10y ago
  My use case is admittedly a bit esoteric but: a) I need a MacBook for work, b) I only have room for a single computer in my life, c) I already have a pretty powerful computer with a TB2 port. Plus, it's nice to keep things relatively simple.
- jtreminio 10y ago
  I have a mid-2015 MBP, and have it connected to a 4K monitor. Looks beautiful, but there's some obvious jerking going on from pushing so many pixels. An eGPU would help solve this issue completely, and I could even go for dual 4K monitors (or more).
dvcrn 10y ago
I am very curious if eGPUs would work with Mac instead of windows. I am a video editor with final cut as my main tool and if I could offload to a external GPU, I would immediately do it. Anyone knows if this works?
- izacus 10y ago
  No, Appe deliberately blacklists eGPUs in macOS. It'll work out of the box only on Windows.
  - dvcrn 10y ago
    Dang. Any idea about potential ongoing hack projects to make this work?
    - matt4077 10y ago
      I'm incredibly happy running a 2008 Mac Pro with a GTX 960, 32GB RAM and intel i6700 :) It's unfortunate that I also had to replace the case to fit the Samsung 950PRO in there, but wow, Sierra is screaming fast and Tensorflow runs perfectly.
- Fnoord 10y ago
  According to this guide, yes. https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5l3y0a/egpu_my_experience_with_the_15_tmbp_2016_and_a_15/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5l3y0a/egpu_my_exper...
  - dvcrn 10y ago
    Oh damn! That's impressive. I will definitely do some more research on this! Having a TB3 core with graphic power at home that I could just plug in if I need the power, and otherwise carry a small lightweld MacBook with me sounds too good to be true. If it's daisy-chainable I could imagine quite a nice dock-setup with external display that could turn a small MBP into a work-horse whenever needed. I'm intrigued.
CN7R 10y ago
Isn't the main cost of eGPU enclosures the thunderbolt-to PCIe-board? Why can't Intel sell them for cheaper?
hogrammer 10y ago
For chrissake Mac Zealots: get a PC. I have a pair of Titan X Pascals, 256 GB of RAM and dual Xeons.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
- hendersoon 10y ago
  Nobody knows what intel's licensing fees are, because they won't allow licensees to disclose them. You're repeating rumors as fact.
makapuf 10y ago
Nice hack, but wow, that's evidence of violence against a mouse (second photo), call the PETA ..
paines 10y ago
There is a mini PCI-E (as well as NGFF and Expresscard) solution or every kind of laptop, as long as you are willing to fiddle around with your notebook a bit (hardware wise) http://www.banggood.com/de/Mini-PCI-E-Version-V8_0-EXP-GDC-Beast-Laptop-External-Independent-Video-Card-Dock-p-1011222.html http://www.banggood.com/de/Mini-PCI-E-Version-V8_0-EXP-GDC-B... Mine is on the way, so for now I cannot comment on the stability of the system, but I expect it to be better and easier to setup than Thunderbolt, because PCI-E is longer on the market. Sure the Thunderbolt solution is a closed one-cable thing which looks way cleaner, but I read reviews from e.g. Asus ROG EGPU users, with unstable systems. I absolutely don't want to bad mouth the Thunderbolt solution, I would love to use it, by my system does not have a port. Also, the TB dock is super expensive.
kingosticks 10y ago
Word of warning for anyone thinking of doing this with a Dell XPS 13/15, the 2016 models (at least) only support 16Gbps of PCIe over the Thunderbolt 3 link. http://www.notebookcheck.net/Design-flaw-in-XPS-9350-9550-may-cause-TB3-ports-to-run-at-TB2-speeds.189743.0.html http://www.notebookcheck.net/Design-flaw-in-XPS-9350-9550-ma...
- hendersoon 10y ago
  Interesting-- I was not aware of that! That's the same bandwidth as TB2, which will add another 10% performance penalty versus a native 16-lane PCIe gen3 slot, for a total of 20% performance lost. Still completely workable.
  - kingosticks 10y ago
    Nor was I until I started reading around this topic earlier. It's certainly still workable but just worth keeping in mind before anyone springs extra £££ for TB3 and the latest crazy-powerful GPU.
lopespm 10y ago
Anyone here used a similar rig for machine learning?

238 points by archagon 10y ago

andreiw 10y ago

Does anyone know if the GPU can then be passed thru to VBox or Fusion?

Synaesthesia 10y ago
If it works in Mac OS sure, although of course the performance won't be as good. The author seems to only be running windows for these tests
oneplane 10y ago
No, this cannot be done. In theory, it should be possible with xhyve in the future, but at this moment, no PCIe or TB passing is possible because of the lack of support on the hypervisor side on desktop operating systems.
- rincebrain 10y ago
  What about these setups makes them more complicated to support than simple PCIe passthrough? Because PCIe passthrough is definitely a thing you can do currently in several virtualization implementations. (Unless you mean you can't do it while also using it as a GPU in the desktop, which is true.)

jankotek 10y ago

I think you could fit entire gaming PC in that little box. There are low profile gaming cards.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
archagon 10y ago
Yeah, though I imagine it would have to be a pretty weak gaming PC due to cooling issues.
- jsheard 10y ago
  Yep, you're not going to cram a proper gaming PC into 160inch³. AFAIK the smallest case designed for gaming GPUs is the Dan A4 at 433inch³. https://www.dan-cases.com/dana4.php https://www.dan-cases.com/dana4.php
  - xanderstrike 10y ago
    There's also the NFC S4 Mini, which only supports half length GPUs (Gigabyte makes a good 1070). It 4.3L or 262in³. Both of these options are certainly smaller than a macbook plus an enclosure though.
    - jsheard 10y ago
      The S4 Mini is news to me, it looks very nice. It does use an external power brick though, unlike the A4 which is all internal. Zotac just announced a mini GTX1080 so you could get some amazing performance density in the S4. http://www.anandtech.com/show/10947/zotac-announces-geforce-gtx-1080-for-miniitx-pcs http://www.anandtech.com/show/10947/zotac-announces-geforce-...
    - lewisl9029 10y ago
      The S4 Mini does look really awesome! It almost makes me want to build another desktop! However, having 1 computer that does everything still has a lot of value for me over having to context switch between a desktop and laptop and constantly worry about keeping everything in sync like I do right now. So my next machine is still going to have to be a laptop + eGPU combo.
  - chx 10y ago
    https://www.zotac.com/us/product/mini_pcs/magnus-en1060 https://www.zotac.com/us/product/mini_pcs/magnus-en1060 this https://www.zotac.com/us/product/mini_pcs/magnus-en1070 https://www.zotac.com/us/product/mini_pcs/magnus-en1070 these are 2.6L and sport a GTX 1060 and even a GTX 1070.

slantyyz 10y ago

In case anyone's wondering about doing it with the new 2016 Macbook Pros, there's a video about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvAB3U5umug&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvAB3U5umug&t=1s

dbg31415 10y ago

This is great. Thanks!

Uehreka 10y ago

This is really neat! I'm in a similar situation (Late 2013 Retina MacBook Pro 13") and have been doing some research on deep learning and neural networks. Has anyone had success using eGPUs with things like CUDA and CUDNN? Is TB2's lower bandwidth a bottleneck that would keep you from using a really beefy eGPU for these purposes?

rincebrain 10y ago
TB2 is akin to using one of those x16 slots that's wired to x4 (or worse, since if you're using a Gen3 x16 GPU, you'd be running at Gen2 x4, which would be an eightfold reduction). It'll depend on your workload, but generally, it is going to be visibly slower than the "baseline" performance for any high-utilization workload.
- AlphaSite 10y ago
  Typically x8 can be used with near zero performance loss in many/most workloads, and withGen3 x4 should be fine again.
masklinn 10y ago
> Is TB2's lower bandwidth a bottleneck that would keep you from using a really beefy eGPU for these purposes? What limits you is the power input and cooling capabilities of your TB2 box. A 1080 has a 180W TDP (before O/C), so you need to feed it up to 180We and dissipate that much heat, a Titan X increases that to 250W. TFA went with a 1050 because it only has a 75W TDP, and that could be achieved with their enclosure (by swapping out the power brick, the "out of the box" version only handles 30W TDP). After that, it's mostly a matter of feeding the GPU enough stuff to do, giving it a small number of expensive tasks will utilise the limited bandwidth better than the reverse, which is why the efficiency of eGPU (TB2, but also TB3) increases as you increase rendering quality and the like (compared to internal) e.g. you might get 70% of internal at low settings and 90% at high.
Aeolos 10y ago
When using a single GPU, as is the case here, you will not be able to saturate a TB2 slot in any reasonable deep learning workload. For multiple GPUs, sure, PCIe performance matters, but for single GPUs it is not a bottleneck for any practical scenario I can think of. Right now, I am working with large volumetric datasets (think 100+GB) and even then I am only seeing ~200MB/s peak transfers, which are well within the capabilities of TB2. In my experience, large datasets are bottlenecked by the hard drive, which is not a problem for modern rMBPs. Edit: I am using a 2.5GB/s NVMe SSD, so the 200MB/s is the raw bandwidth used when mass-evaluating batches on the GPU. For training, I am seeing around 70-80MB/s sustained.

smiled0g 10y ago

If GPU manufacturers can make an eGPU that's standalone and connect to PC/Laptop via Thunderbolt3(USB-C), that'd be pretty neat especially if they can make it <$100 more expensive than the cost of GPU in PC version. I can see a large portion of people who doesn't want to spend $300+ on an external GPU box just to be able to upgrade the $200 card inside.

slantyyz 10y ago
< $100 might be tough. You've got to have a decently made chassis to accommodate and cool a full-sized card and a meaty power supply for the latest and greatest GPUs. And that's before you add any docking functionality for extra ports. The cheapest thing I've seen to date is the Alienware Amp which sells for around $150 but uses Alienware's proprietary port, which IIRC, is a bit slower than TB3.
- hendersoon 10y ago
  I haven't seen them tested side by side but actually both TB3 and the Alienware Amplifier offer 4 lanes of PCIe gen3. So they should be pretty much identical. As for the lower-end pricing, it's very feasible to fit a laptop-oriented MXM GPU moodule in a lower power envelope. The GTX 1060 mobile variant only draws 80 watts, and the GTX 1050 mobile sips power at 50 watts. They do obviously need active cooling, but not a LOT of active cooling. Note that the 10-series of GPUs are not cut-down versions like previous generations. The 1050ti mobile is just as fast as the 1050ti desktop card at same clocks, they bin the chips so it can work with less power. It's very reasonable to imagine a sealed laptop dock (as opposed to a full enclosure) with a 50 watt 1050ti inside selling for $300. Comin' soon!
  - lewisl9029 10y ago
    Another poster mentioned the Wolfe earlier in the thread, which has everything I want in an eGPU box: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304774 The price is a bit steep for the hardware it offers, but it looks super portable and just powerful enough for my use cases. Too bad it's apparently become vaporware.

jbverschoor 10y ago

One of the things I imagined and researched for thunerbolt was this. Unfortunately still quite expensive. Only due to supply/demand. I hopes apple would offer an external gpu to use with their low powered laptop gpus

kevinsimper 10y ago

Wow, what a well explained blog and pretty impressive that it doesn't need more hacking to get it to work! EGPU is really an exciting future!

eltoozero 10y ago

Fantastic write up, I've been meaning to attempt this very thing having found the same thunderbolt enclosure and wondering why nobody had used a "low-end" GTX rather than fussing with ATX PSU wiring. Not that I'm a stranger to hacking a PSU, but my MacBook is not a RepRap.

seanp2k2 10y ago
Eh, because he still had to hunt down a kinda sketchy China PSU from Amazon and hope that it could do the rates wattage, spent twice as much on the enclosure as the GPU, etc for a ~3.5x upgrade. I'm guessing that for most people, if they're considering this, the few hundred extra to get as much performance as you can out of it makes sense. Rigging up an ATX PSU isn't too hard, and one could put it all into a SFF desktop case if you care about it looking nice. Apparently TB3 enclosures are coming which also address all of these shortcomings except price.

Lio 10y ago

An alternative would be the Wolfe GPU[1] I really wish we had an Apple "firing on all cylinders" that released commercial products like this. As a business I'm sure the current product line generates the right numbers in someone's spreadsheet but to me it's just so ...dull. For the first time since 2006 I haven't updated to the latest macOS and have no plans to. I've seen nothing compelling in it compared to El Capitan. I wish Apple had better OpenGL or Vulcan (for cross platform games) or eGPU support for internal laptop displays. Instead we have Metal. So far I've not seen an example of a AAA macOS game that actually supports it. Then again I wish Apple would add an undo feature for the auto"correct" in iOS but obviously they've got their own agenda. :) [1] https://thewolfe.io https://thewolfe.io

9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
Eh, the Wolfe looks like vaporware at this point. They cancelled their kickstarter and their explanation was vague and unconvincing. Their website hasn't been updated fully to reflect the cancelled kickstarter. I don't see a release timeline anywhere, and there's no mention of how their software works at all (but they do allude to a software key, even though they imply it's plug and play?).
- Lio 10y ago
  That's sad news. Hopefully the other TB3 enclosures will come along at a reasonable price.
deckar01 10y ago
The way you undo autocorrect in iOS is backspace once. The black suggestion tip will appear with your original spelling and tapping it will revert the change.

DigitalJack 10y ago

I really wish laptops would expose the screen to act as a monitor. I'd love an external GPU, but I don't want an external monitor.

freehunter 10y ago
There have been so many times in my "IT guy" history I would have loved to use my laptop's screen as a monitor for another computer. It's kind of crazy to have to track down a monitor just to see if a headless desktop is booting properly so I can remotely access it from the laptop that's sitting right next to it. And my current MacBook has a retina screen, compared to the 1440x900 screen on my desktop. I'd LOVE to use my desktop's power on my Macbook's screen.
jsheard 10y ago
Non-hacky Thunderbolt 3 eGPUs like the Razer Core do offer a loopback mode where the video feeds back to the laptops screen over the TB3 cable. The extra traffic on the wire does incur a small performance penalty over an external monitor though.
Swannie 10y ago
A few Sony Vaio models had that feature circa 2011 (HDMI in to display on the 16" WXGA (?) 1080p screen). I was very close to getting one.

nfriedly 10y ago

On the one hand, this is really cool. But, on the other hand, thats nearly $400 to use a $140 video card with a Macbook that's running Windows and basically behaving as a desktop computer. It wouldn't be that much more expensive to just build a cheap Windows desktop with the same video card - especially when simplicity and low fuss are stated goals. ("Gaming computers" can be incredibly cheap. http://www.logicalincrements.com/ http://www.logicalincrements.com/ starts at $169, and the tier with a GTX 1050 Ti is $528. Also, given the 20% performance penalty from TB2, you could probably drop down a tier or two and still get the same result.)

seanp2k2 10y ago
Yeah, a i5-6600k is a bit over $200 right now, and Ryzen is just around the corner. If a TB3 enclosure was, say, $100 (then you'd add an appropriate ATX PSU) and there were reliable, tested cables (and OSX drivers), I'd be all over this. EGPU has been around for a few years now and has yet to take off. Hopefully TB3 will remedy this, but I'm not holding my breath. I think a lot of the blame is on Intel, and hopefully with TB3 now they'll fully support eGPU.
twblalock 10y ago
I had to make the same decision in June, and I built a Windows desktop instead of using an external GPU. However, I hope that I won't have to do that again in the future. I'd rather have just one computer for the sake of simplicity. Hopefully external GPUs will become mainstream in a few years.
archagon 10y ago
Sure, but there are a few additional factors. First, $400 is the "lazy price". I had some credit card points to spend so I didn't want to waste too much time looking for deals. But if you wait for rebates, buy used, or get the less powerful non-Ti 1050, you could probably get close to $300. Second, I already had a very powerful CPU in my machine (as well as 16GB of RAM) and I didn't want to downgrade. Third, I move around constantly and prefer to keep my belongings to a bare minimum, so a compact eGPU box was far more compelling than even the smallest gaming PC case.

hendersoon 10y ago

This is interesting academically, but I wouldn't buy a hacked-together TB2 enclosure. Thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosures are available now, and are fully supported by Intel and windows. They started at $500 with the Razer Core, but new models like the AkiTiO Node and Powercolor Devil Box are coming in at $299, shipping Q1 2017. More will likely be announced at CES this week. These TB3 enclosures have 400w+ power supplies, better cooling, and are large enough to fit large enthusiast GPUs like the Nvidia GTX 1080. You can plug a TB3 device into a TB2 laptop with a simple adapter. Apple sells theirs for $29; Chinese versions will be cheaper. Depending on what features the manufacturer decides to add to their device, TB3 eGPU enclosures can also charge your laptop, offer USB3 ports, gigabit ethernet, audio jacks, etc. The $299 models tend to be very bare-bones but there's no doubt that competition will lead to cheaper prices and more features over time. Again, watch for more at CES this week. Current list of TB3 eGPU enclosures: AKiTiO Node ($300) https://www.akitio.com/expansion/node https://www.akitio.com/expansion/node Asus ROG XG Station 2 (price unknown) https://www.asus.com/Graphics-Cards-Accessory/ROG-XG-STATION-2/ https://www.asus.com/Graphics-Cards-Accessory/ROG-XG-STATION... BizonBOX 3 ($650, probably because it says it works with Macs) https://bizon-tech.com/us/bizonbox3-egpu.html/ https://bizon-tech.com/us/bizonbox3-egpu.html/ Powercolor Devil Box ($300. Ugly, though.) http://www.powercolor.com/us/products_DevilBox_features.asp?id=1 http://www.powercolor.com/us/products_DevilBox_features.asp?... Razer Core ($500) http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-stealth http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-stealth

archagon 10y ago
I would have certainly preferred to do this, but it would have involved a $2000 upgrade first! (Well, barring the TB3-to-TB2 adaptor approach, but I've seen almost no builds doing this.) Also, from what I've seen, there's a lot of uncertainty regarding eGPU support with TB3; many people have reported problems on TechInferno etc., and even AKiTiO is unclear about Mac support. (If you check the specs for the Node, you'll see that Macs are listed as unsupported. Does this mean OSX-only or BootCamp as well? Who knows?) Might be worth waiting a year for things to shake out. Also, I was optimizing in part for cheapness. Truly great gaming cards cost $300 and up, and $400 total was about as much as I was willing to pay for an upgrade.

jwr 10y ago

I wish there was a "target mode" for desktop PCs. Basically a Thunderbolt3 port on the motherboard, which when connected would expose the internal PCI slots over TB3. I don't know if this is even possible, but if so, it would be a fantastic solution. Keep a monster desktop PC for gaming, then shut it down and connect your MacBook and get a powerful computer for work.

fooker 10y ago
Won't this be a matter of writing drivers?
- pcr0 10y ago
  And you'd need a motherboard with Intel's top of the line chipset (Z170) for TB support. Lots of people choose to skimp on the extra $30 or so as the perception at the moment is that it's only necessary for overclocking.
  - hendersoon 10y ago
    Most Z170 motherboards don't have a TB3 port either, as it's an added cost that most people frankly don't give a fig about. In PC motherboards, USB-C has almost total market penetration; TB3 almost zero. TB3 is much more prevalent on PC laptops, but still nowhere near common.

chx 10y ago

Regarding the AC adapter, if you check that Amazon page it says it's by Mini Box and Mini Box itself http://www.mini-box.com/12v-10A-AC-DC-Power-Adapter http://www.mini-box.com/12v-10A-AC-DC-Power-Adapter sells the right adapter.

archagon 10y ago
That one looks a bit more legit than the CD120100A I got. Perhaps I will send it back and buy this one instead!

amelius 10y ago

Related question: is it possible yet to connect an external GPU to a Raspberry Pi (where bandwidth is not the bottleneck)? If not, why not?

Nexxxeh 10y ago
I would imagine you can, but nothing gaming-grade because you're doing it over USB 2.0 which is even worse on the Pi than it is on the PC.

jansenv 10y ago

This is really amazing! I will be keeping an eye on this tech, as I do a bit of gaming on my mbp. It seems obvious that the prices will continue to fall on these components.

SpicyPython 10y ago

I understand the curiosity aspect of "Can/could I do this?", but from a practical standpoint, why? A gaming desktop is more practical, cheaper, easy to improve and change, etc. But if your problem is mobility, a gaming laptop is probably cheaper to start off with, then it definitely is after the external gpu.

archagon 10y ago
My use case is admittedly a bit esoteric but: a) I need a MacBook for work, b) I only have room for a single computer in my life, c) I already have a pretty powerful computer with a TB2 port. Plus, it's nice to keep things relatively simple.
jtreminio 10y ago
I have a mid-2015 MBP, and have it connected to a 4K monitor. Looks beautiful, but there's some obvious jerking going on from pushing so many pixels. An eGPU would help solve this issue completely, and I could even go for dual 4K monitors (or more).

dvcrn 10y ago

I am very curious if eGPUs would work with Mac instead of windows. I am a video editor with final cut as my main tool and if I could offload to a external GPU, I would immediately do it. Anyone knows if this works?

izacus 10y ago
No, Appe deliberately blacklists eGPUs in macOS. It'll work out of the box only on Windows.
- dvcrn 10y ago
  Dang. Any idea about potential ongoing hack projects to make this work?
  - matt4077 10y ago
    I'm incredibly happy running a 2008 Mac Pro with a GTX 960, 32GB RAM and intel i6700 :) It's unfortunate that I also had to replace the case to fit the Samsung 950PRO in there, but wow, Sierra is screaming fast and Tensorflow runs perfectly.
Fnoord 10y ago
According to this guide, yes. https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5l3y0a/egpu_my_experience_with_the_15_tmbp_2016_and_a_15/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5l3y0a/egpu_my_exper...
- dvcrn 10y ago
  Oh damn! That's impressive. I will definitely do some more research on this! Having a TB3 core with graphic power at home that I could just plug in if I need the power, and otherwise carry a small lightweld MacBook with me sounds too good to be true. If it's daisy-chainable I could imagine quite a nice dock-setup with external display that could turn a small MBP into a work-horse whenever needed. I'm intrigued.

CN7R 10y ago

Isn't the main cost of eGPU enclosures the thunderbolt-to PCIe-board? Why can't Intel sell them for cheaper?

hogrammer 10y ago

For chrissake Mac Zealots: get a PC. I have a pair of Titan X Pascals, 256 GB of RAM and dual Xeons.

deleted 10y ago

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hendersoon 10y ago
Nobody knows what intel's licensing fees are, because they won't allow licensees to disclose them. You're repeating rumors as fact.

makapuf 10y ago

Nice hack, but wow, that's evidence of violence against a mouse (second photo), call the PETA ..

paines 10y ago

There is a mini PCI-E (as well as NGFF and Expresscard) solution or every kind of laptop, as long as you are willing to fiddle around with your notebook a bit (hardware wise) http://www.banggood.com/de/Mini-PCI-E-Version-V8_0-EXP-GDC-Beast-Laptop-External-Independent-Video-Card-Dock-p-1011222.html http://www.banggood.com/de/Mini-PCI-E-Version-V8_0-EXP-GDC-B... Mine is on the way, so for now I cannot comment on the stability of the system, but I expect it to be better and easier to setup than Thunderbolt, because PCI-E is longer on the market. Sure the Thunderbolt solution is a closed one-cable thing which looks way cleaner, but I read reviews from e.g. Asus ROG EGPU users, with unstable systems. I absolutely don't want to bad mouth the Thunderbolt solution, I would love to use it, by my system does not have a port. Also, the TB dock is super expensive.

kingosticks 10y ago

Word of warning for anyone thinking of doing this with a Dell XPS 13/15, the 2016 models (at least) only support 16Gbps of PCIe over the Thunderbolt 3 link. http://www.notebookcheck.net/Design-flaw-in-XPS-9350-9550-may-cause-TB3-ports-to-run-at-TB2-speeds.189743.0.html http://www.notebookcheck.net/Design-flaw-in-XPS-9350-9550-ma...

hendersoon 10y ago
Interesting-- I was not aware of that! That's the same bandwidth as TB2, which will add another 10% performance penalty versus a native 16-lane PCIe gen3 slot, for a total of 20% performance lost. Still completely workable.
- kingosticks 10y ago
  Nor was I until I started reading around this topic earlier. It's certainly still workable but just worth keeping in mind before anyone springs extra £££ for TB3 and the latest crazy-powerful GPU.

lopespm 10y ago

Anyone here used a similar rig for machine learning?