9 ms·

When we got accepted into YCombinator back in 2011 (Mailgun), I remember PG looking at our Thinkpads running Linux and asking something along the lines of "what

When we got accepted into YCombinator back in 2011 (Mailgun), I remember PG looking at our Thinkpads running Linux and asking something along the lines of "what's wrong with you?", with almost [1] all YC teams using Macbooks. I wonder if it's the Valley culture? There is no way a Macbook can compete with a proper Thinkpad [2] for programmer productivity: the keyboard, the UltraNav, the swappable batteries (you can fly around the world with a x260 + spare battery), a nice docking station, upgradeable storage/memory and a trouble-free Linux distro. Plus, they don't burn you with ice-cold aluminum every morning. The gap is huge! If a Thinkpad is a 100, the prev. gen Macbook Pro would be 60 and everything else lingering in misery under 10. Full disclosure: I am 100% Macbook right now because Photoshop/Sketch, the struggle is real, I miss everything about Thinkpad, hence this passionate comment. [1] Another 100% Linux, 100% Thinkpad company was http://www.acunote.com [2] Properly configured, i.e. IPS, Intel graphics, etc.

amiga-workbench 10y ago
I don't understand it either, the thing that always gets me is most developers setting up vagrant on their Mac just to get a working environment. Cut the bullshit and just run Linux on the bare metal, your program will run faster, and your laptop battery life won't be halved. You will have to claw my x201 out of my cold dead hands, I've not found a single notebook (even the newer ThinkPads) that are as comfortable to use. I've got no crummy trackpad wasting space and a 16:10 display that's designed for work, and not watching cat videos. Spare parts are dirt cheap, and since the magnesium alloy rollcage is on the inside I don't have to worry about ugly dents, I just swap plastic panels out on the cheap when I think they are getting a bit too worn.
- flamedoge 10y ago
  > not watching cat videos. yea. ok edit: Why not watch cat videos?
- jamiesonbecker 10y ago
  I've been a thinkpad user since 386 days, and love my x201 and x220, but I prefer the Dell Rugged Extreme (price notwithstanding) -- feels like an old school bombproof (literally in this case) thinkpad... but I really miss the UltraNav.
  - gravypod 10y ago
    If you want there was a P series of thinkpads that are designed to be milspec and IP60 something.
    - rincebrain 10y ago
      Not all the P-series, as far as I can see - the P50/P50s/P70 do, but the P40 Yoga notably doesn't (and I'd be impressed if they had made a hybrid tablet/laptop that did). (And here I thought the P-series was "just" what the W series morphed into...)
- santoriv 10y ago
  Yeah I bought a pretty expensive Macbook Pro earlier this year and recently ended up switching from OSX to Ubuntu after I got tired of dealing with all sorts of random Docker issues. To my surprise, I've found Linux to feel faster and be somewhat more pleasant than OSX. Now I sometimes wish I had just spent half as much money getting a more powerful (bulkier) laptop that just ran Linux.
  - brightball 10y ago
    Docker outside of Linux has been a major pain point for a while. I'm switching to a Linux laptop and native Docker is one of the things I'm most looking forward to.
    - mmatoscom 10y ago
      I know the feeling. I was sick of using company's laptop (ideapad) to everything I needed to (messing personal stuff together), and went forward looking for a new (used) laptop in internet classified boards. I wanted a well built, portable (like 13" max), and mint condition used laptop. Went to Docker Slack and asked what were their experience running docker on mac. There are still some improvements to be made there, and besides I dont want to run VMs again unless its totally needed (like a windows environment in a vm, or coreos on qemu as I use here for k8s testing, but not docker itself). I know xhyve is transparent and everything, but lets face it, its just another virtual machine running docker, from boot2docker to xhyve was a no-go to me. So I decided to go for a Linux laptop (using linux since 98, in fact I got excited about it). My options for a decent linux laptop concerning portability were the Dell XPS, or a Thinkpad X260. So I started to watch reviews on youtube for both laptops. Doing so I found that the Dell has a coil whine issue that would really drive me crazy having a laptop screaming right out of the box. It was a no-go for me. If you want to check what I am talking about, watch this https://youtu.be/cwR4CWzDtfQ https://youtu.be/cwR4CWzDtfQ. My boss has one and I started to listen to the laptop and yes it is kinda noisy. So there was this thinkpad. At amazon the X260 was USD 2750. Far from my spending range right now, so I decided to check classifieds for a used one. Keeping in mind the linux laptop for docker development, I found a thinkpad x240 which is a beast - 12,5"/i7 proc/8GB ram/256 ssd. its silent, portable enough, feels well built as most thinkpads, its possible to upgrade the memory to 16GB when I have the resources for it, has back-light keyboard, a nice keyboard indeed. The trackpad is sort of weird, but I am getting used to it. The version I got is a touchscreen HD display and not FHD, so my max res is 1366x768. Using the gnome tweak tool I was able to change some fonts and icons size, its just great now, feels like HD for me. Has 2 video ports, VGA and miniDV. it has card reader. Even a sim card modem built in. It was USD 500. I dont see myself changing to another one soon. And docker is flying over here - as well qemu. Cheers mates.
- noir_lord 10y ago
  > Cut the bullshit and just run Linux on the bare metal, I run Linux on Linux via vagrant, it's not about my program running faster it's about isolating a client projects dependencies from each other so when I have to work on that system that is still in production on PHP Current-1 or Ruby-1 I don't have to fuck with my host OS at all. In fact I have very few developer bits and bobs installed on the host (mostly just JetBrains stuff) and all the actual tooling is run in the VM, this makes for far easier deploys for myself since my process is pull projectname/(site||name), pull projectname/vagrant, vagrant up. It takes me less than 30 minutes from reinstalling to having half a dozen projects with all their weird dependencies and cruft installed and I never have to worry about breaking something else or needing to blow away a machine for some reason. I'm happy to trade some performance for running damn near everything in a guest OS for that.
  - thesandlord 10y ago
    Curious, why Vagrant and not Docker? Then you don't need to run a VM, but still get the same isolation.
    - mmatoscom 10y ago
      well pointed!
    - luos 10y ago
      I am guessing is that when he started working on this stuff docker was in it's infancy (still is IMHO), and had no reason/time to port it.
      - BlackFingolfin 10y ago
        Or you could have glanced at the article and seen that your guess is wide off the mark.. ;-)
        jholman 10y ago
        Which article?
- chris_wot 10y ago
  I thinkimux is rather hit and miss when it comes to battery life on Linux. I've never really quite understood why, as I though ACPI is meant to handle this. But I'm not terribly au fait with this interface, so there might be good reasons, I know Torcalds criticised it early on as a "design disaster" and there were and I think still are concerns about the way that bytecode has unfettered access to the system.
- jclardy 10y ago
  Yeah, I wouldn't want a crummy windows trackpad taking up space either ;) also all Apple laptops are 16:10, other than the 11" MacBook Air.
  - likeclockwork 10y ago
    What's a Windows trackpad?
- gonzo 10y ago
  > You will have to claw my x201 out of my cold dead hands, I've not found a single notebook (even the newer ThinkPads) that are as comfortable to use. I've got no crummy trackpad wasting space and a 16:10 display that's designed for work, and not watching cat videos. the X201 has a trackpad. The X1 carbon (and several other models) have 2560x1440 displays.
  - amiga-workbench 10y ago
    The x201 was the last ThinkPad to offer NOT having a Trackpad, you just swap the palmrest. http://mos6581.com/pictures/thinkpad/201-palmrest.jpg http://mos6581.com/pictures/thinkpad/201-palmrest.jpg
- tvon 10y ago
  > (...) most developers setting up vagrant on their Mac just to get a working environment. What kind of working environment requires setting up Vagrant on OSX? It's a Unix-based OS, if you're doing any web development you can do it on the host system.
  - amiga-workbench 10y ago
    You generally develop on the platform that your software will end up running on, and nobody in their right mind uses OSX on a server.
    - Const-me 10y ago
      If you have a SaaS product that needs 3D rendering on the server, Windows and Linux servers that have a GPU are targeted towards GPGPU and are expensive to rent. MacPros have two descent AMD FirePro GPUs but much cheaper to rent.
    - tvon 10y ago
      If you are trying to match your production platform then you will use a VM of some sort in Linux anyway. If you are not trying to match your production platform then you can develop just fine on OSX.
  - DCoder 10y ago
    Isolation and reproduction. For one thing, you want the development environment to be as similar to production as possible – same OS version, same webserver version, same DB version, same dependencies, no unwanted extras that differ between environments. For another thing, you don't want to have to solve conflicts between project A and completely unrelated project T if you need to work on them both.
    - tvon 10y ago
      If you care about isolation and reproduction then you're using a VM anyway and the host OS is completely irrelevant.
j7ake 10y ago
You hinted at it in the end: MacBooks have good software that works. No troubles connecting to peripherals like printers and projectors. No worries about laptop sucking battery when I close the lid and forget to sleep. And MacBooks have the best touchpad of all laptops.
- xanderstrike 10y ago
  > MacBooks have good software that works I just spent my entire workday struggling to figure out why `kernal_task` was constantly using 16gb of RAM. Whenever people say macOS "just works" I assume they do nothing but web browse. It's great at that.
  - Retra 10y ago
    Your OS manages all of your memory. You can't get any memory at all without asking it for it. How much memory were you requesting, and why didn't you get it? Is that the problem you were solving? Is there some reason you suspect the OS preferentially gives memory to web browsers?
  - pinneycolton 10y ago
    Did you figure it out? If not, you may want to try choosing "All processes, hierarchically" from the View menu in Activity Monitor.
    - xanderstrike 10y ago
      I "solved" the problem by restoring a week old backup from before I'd upgraded to Sierra. All other things were equal, so the OS was the culprit. This is why good backups are important, never know when Apple's gonna screw you.
  - j7ake 10y ago
    The browser takes up most of takes up most of my resources. Apart from that it would be Adobe products and sometimes MATLAB (all less resources than safari). My terminal would be negligible. I agree with your comment. Generally, OSX often means I am using more resources to do the same task than when I use my archlinux. But in the era of 16g+ ram and terabyte Harddisks, I find it simpler to just let OSX use extra resources so I can spend less time thinking about low level processes.
djsumdog 10y ago
A lot of developers love their Macs and I don't get it. For me OSX 10.6 was the last decent one. Mission Control is garbage compared to Expose. I got so frustrated with it that I started running Linux in a VM on my Mac as my primary system. I also got into tiling window managers, which killed every going back to Mac/Windows. Today's Dell and Lenovo laptops are good Linux dev machines. I've never had a problem with putting Linux one one, either my Dell Inspiron at work or my XPS at home. My old first gen carbon can even run FreeBSD-11 fine. Everything worked straight off with a stock kernel and the current linux-firmware package. At one time, Macs were more cost effective for the specs you got. But with all the ram and SSD storage you can pack into modern laptops, they're really good dev machines.
- copperx 10y ago
  Decent machines indeed as long as you are close to a wall socket. Linux power management has a lot of growing up to do.
  - marcelluspye 10y ago
    My experience with linux power management has been alright, or at least better than my expectations. I have an asus laptop that gets f*-all battery life under windows (either 8 or 10, though it seems to be worse now) but I can usually get at least 90 minutes more out of it under linux. It took some tweaking to get to that point, and I have no macbooks to compare it to, but I think the situation isn't as grim as I see a lot of people say it is.
    - rajivm 10y ago
      I'm not sure if this is a fare comparison, but my MB Air can easily get 9-10 hours of battery life (if I don't run Chrome).
  - muro 10y ago
    Agreed. Lenovo claims "up to" 9 hours for the 3rd gen X1 carbon, I get at most 5 under linux.
krisdol 10y ago
You're in a thread responding to someone (who I happen to agree with as well) that disagrees with you on "There is no way a Macbook can compete with a proper Thinkpad". It's a bit a of a bold claim. I disagree with you on the keyboard and the navigation. The solid aluminum construction of the MBP is one of the best aspects of it, next to the display. I've dropped the thing probably 20 times without issue. I will admit, knowing how carbon feels on my bike, I'm curious about how it looks and feels on the X1. My 5 year old MBPr still gets 5 hours of battery life while the Thinkpad I had got 30 minutes when it reached the 4 year mark. Not in the valley, by the way, and I also prefer linux.
- abecedarius 10y ago
  Curious: my 2012 X1 Carbon still runs about as long as ever from battery. (It never got 5 hours, more like 4.)
  - mst 10y ago
    My X61s (with extended battery) went from ~12h to 9-10h over the four years or so I was using it.
rayiner 10y ago
> There is no way a Macbook can compete with a proper Thinkpad [2] for programmer productivity: the keyboard, the UltraNav, the swappable batteries (you can fly around the world with a x260 + spare battery), a nice docking station Keyboard and UltraNav are more taste than anything else. I have a T450s for work and a 15" rMBP and vastly prefer the keyboard/touchpad on the latter. It doesn't help that Lenovo's QA is shit. My T450s keyboard is bulging in the bottom right of the keyboard deck, and several of the keys stick for a millisecond on the way down. As if they're not quite seated properly and hitting the key causes something to click into place. I suspect it's temperature related, because it goes away after typing for awhile, but comes back after a bit of non-use. > upgradeable storage/memory Programmers are expensive. No reason not to buy a maxed-out machine to begin with. Also, it's hard to get over Lenovo's penchant for shit displays if your job is to stare at text all day.
- tikhonj 10y ago
  I have an X1 Yoga (a touchscreen equivalent of the X1 Carbon) with an OLED display and it's absolutely gorgeous. It's much better than the ~1 year old Mac Book Pro I have for work. The colors and contrast are incredible—it can even render a black that doesn't glow at all.
  - balakk 10y ago
    The Carbon is touchscreen, just not a convertible.
    - ElijahLynn 10y ago
      The X1 Carbon (4th gen) mentioned in this thread is not a touchscreen, they don't seem to offer a Carbon Touch anymore. It appears the X1 Yoga is essentially the Carbon Touch.
      - balakk 10y ago
        Agreed, I was wrong. I have a 2015 X1 Carbon, which has a touch-screen. I'm surprised they removed this, it's quite decent. But it is unlikely that I'll miss it.
masklinn 10y ago
> There is no way a Macbook can compete with a proper Thinkpad Your criticisms are pretty almost all a matter of taste, and we're in disagreement just about throughout. > I wonder if it's the Valley culture? I'm not in the valley. I've never found any non-apple laptop with a good (or even decent) trackpad, and I like that OSX has a community of indie developers who actually care. > the keyboard I don't enjoy thinkpad keyboard. > the UltraNav Same as above but much stronger, I absolutely hate this thing, and I love Apple trackpad. In fact the trackpad is one a huge reason for remaining on Apple laptops despite other shortcomings: I can and even enjoy using MBPs without a mouse. > the swappable batteries have never been something I've needed, plus that requires carrying additional batteries. > a nice docking station Meh. "nice" is in the eye of the beholder, the thing's ugly as sin. And with type C/TB3, you can actually replicate it without being beholden to Apple (!). > upgradeable storage/memory That is indeed a really annoying "feature" of Apple over the last few years. Though of course you can get a maxed-out MBP. > Linux distro and I don't see that as an advantage. > The gap is huge! If a Thinkpad is a 100, the prev. gen Macbook Pro would be 60 If you like thinkpads more power to you, but all my experiences with them were disappointing, I'd put the 2015 rMBP at 70 and the average thinkpad at 40, maybe 50.
- corn13read 10y ago
  You've never used a business thinkpad for more than 15 minutes
  - CountSessine 10y ago
    That's interesting - do you know him?
- snuxoll 10y ago
  Eh, different strokes. Personally, I have a ThinkPad W540 for work and while it weighs like a brick man is it easy to work with. The UltraNav isn't as nice as the trackpad on my XPS 13, but I usually work with the TrackPoint on ThinkPad's anyway (killer feature for me to be honest, even Apple's awesome trackpad disappointments in comparison to a good ol' TrackPoint in my opinion) - upgrading the RAM and SSD required a couple screws for the appropriate bays in the base cover instead of needing to take the whole thing off like my old 2012 MBP. Also, while USB Type-C and ThunderBolt 3 "work" for a dock, being able to plop by ThinkPad down on my desk at home and have it start charging and connect all of my peripherals is still easier than plugging in a cable (even if it's just one cable). Also, as far as Linux support I guess that all really depends on the individual. Most of my workflow is heavily dependent on Linux (Java/Python dev in JetBrains products, ansible stuff, administering a couple dozen Linux VM's) with the exception of our .Net apps (where I run Visual Studio in a Windows VM) - there's not a whole lot of benefit to me running macOS, and in fact, I'd really rather run Fedora (call me an oddball I guess) since anything not getting deployed to a Windows server goes to a CentOS VM, makes moving from development to production a lot easier.
pyre 10y ago
> there is no way a Macbook can compete with a proper Thinkpad Isn't this one of those YMMV kinda things that really depends on the person, though? It seems equally wrong to say that no one could be productive on a MBP as it is to say that no one could be productive without a MBP.
phil21 10y ago
I used to be a strong Thinkpad adherent. But then Lenovo really jumped the shark, and I moved to a MBPr 2012 which was not even remotely in the same class as my T410s it was so much better. Maybe they are better these days, but I need to spend more time with one. But they changed the keyboard, the trackpads were almost laughable, and the battery life was an utter joke - not even enough juice for a MSP-LAS flight. Not to mention (at the time) laughable resolution, and miserable build quality compared to the IBM nameplate T-series. I'm looking for a nice 14-15" laptop like an old T60 that is built like a tank with amazing battery life. It's tempting for me to try the T-series line again, especially if they bring back the classic keyboard they so stupidly did away with. But for some time it was utterly stagnant and more or less unusable trash. I want to like the X1 Carbon
friedman23 10y ago
>I wonder if it's the Valley culture? There is no way a Macbook can compete with a proper Thinkpad [2] for programmer productivity: the keyboard, the UltraNav, the swappable batteries (you can fly around the world with a x260 + spare battery), a nice docking station, upgradeable storage/memory You completely missed the most important productivity tool for a programmer, the display and no thinkpad can compete with a macbook in that regard. In addition new Mac keyboards are better than new thinkpad keyboards. Mac trackpads are better than thinkpad trackpads, the ultranav is not good, battery life on macbooks are better than thinkpads and you don't need to carry extra batteries, and macbook docking solutions are better than thinkpad docking solutions. Also why would you want to use linux when that will 100% give you shorter than 4 hours battery life along with a host of other issues when you can use OSX and get good battery life along with a fully posix compliant os?
gonzo 10y ago
> the swappable batteries the Carbon X1 doesn't have swappable batteries.
krzyk 10y ago
I've got similar experience, but at my new employer. When I got an offer I had to choose which laptop (MacBook Pro or ThinkPad W, the recruited insisted on Mac), I chose Thinkpad because I'm a Linux person. Right now I'm the only programmer in my department that has a Thinkpad (and the only one that has Linux on a Thinkpad). Which is a strange thing for me, I always thought that Macs are more for designers or endusers not programmers/hackers (as you mostly are very limited at hacking on Mac, quite the opposite of Linux).
- pimeys 10y ago
  We have all the developers using Linux, and it-ops and product management using MacOS. For myself, instead of a laptop I ask for a custom workstation. For the same price, I get four fast cores, lots of RAM, lots of ports, huge monitors and lots of (fast) disk. I have a good sound setup there and developers usually don't do meetings or when we do it's whiteboard only and quick. I think it's very satisfying to use a minimal xmonad setup with a proper workstation, then running cmake and seeing your CPU and RAM is used in stuff that actually matters. If I need to do home office, I use my own laptop. But I prefer to be in the office, otherwise some of my time goes to the cats, who want attention the whole day. :3
dekhn 10y ago
Neal Stephenson summed all this up in In the Beginning Was the Command Line. Macs are beautiful, hermetically sealed devices that work perfectly until they explode. Linux (or thinkpads) are like M1 Abrams tanks you can service yourself, run forever on a nuclear battery, and people think you're weird if you have one.
Hydraulix989 10y ago
Hm, half the photos on the YC website front page have Thinkpads.

amiga-workbench 10y ago

I don't understand it either, the thing that always gets me is most developers setting up vagrant on their Mac just to get a working environment. Cut the bullshit and just run Linux on the bare metal, your program will run faster, and your laptop battery life won't be halved. You will have to claw my x201 out of my cold dead hands, I've not found a single notebook (even the newer ThinkPads) that are as comfortable to use. I've got no crummy trackpad wasting space and a 16:10 display that's designed for work, and not watching cat videos. Spare parts are dirt cheap, and since the magnesium alloy rollcage is on the inside I don't have to worry about ugly dents, I just swap plastic panels out on the cheap when I think they are getting a bit too worn.

flamedoge 10y ago
> not watching cat videos. yea. ok edit: Why not watch cat videos?
jamiesonbecker 10y ago
I've been a thinkpad user since 386 days, and love my x201 and x220, but I prefer the Dell Rugged Extreme (price notwithstanding) -- feels like an old school bombproof (literally in this case) thinkpad... but I really miss the UltraNav.
- gravypod 10y ago
  If you want there was a P series of thinkpads that are designed to be milspec and IP60 something.
  - rincebrain 10y ago
    Not all the P-series, as far as I can see - the P50/P50s/P70 do, but the P40 Yoga notably doesn't (and I'd be impressed if they had made a hybrid tablet/laptop that did). (And here I thought the P-series was "just" what the W series morphed into...)
santoriv 10y ago
Yeah I bought a pretty expensive Macbook Pro earlier this year and recently ended up switching from OSX to Ubuntu after I got tired of dealing with all sorts of random Docker issues. To my surprise, I've found Linux to feel faster and be somewhat more pleasant than OSX. Now I sometimes wish I had just spent half as much money getting a more powerful (bulkier) laptop that just ran Linux.
- brightball 10y ago
  Docker outside of Linux has been a major pain point for a while. I'm switching to a Linux laptop and native Docker is one of the things I'm most looking forward to.
  - mmatoscom 10y ago
    I know the feeling. I was sick of using company's laptop (ideapad) to everything I needed to (messing personal stuff together), and went forward looking for a new (used) laptop in internet classified boards. I wanted a well built, portable (like 13" max), and mint condition used laptop. Went to Docker Slack and asked what were their experience running docker on mac. There are still some improvements to be made there, and besides I dont want to run VMs again unless its totally needed (like a windows environment in a vm, or coreos on qemu as I use here for k8s testing, but not docker itself). I know xhyve is transparent and everything, but lets face it, its just another virtual machine running docker, from boot2docker to xhyve was a no-go to me. So I decided to go for a Linux laptop (using linux since 98, in fact I got excited about it). My options for a decent linux laptop concerning portability were the Dell XPS, or a Thinkpad X260. So I started to watch reviews on youtube for both laptops. Doing so I found that the Dell has a coil whine issue that would really drive me crazy having a laptop screaming right out of the box. It was a no-go for me. If you want to check what I am talking about, watch this https://youtu.be/cwR4CWzDtfQ https://youtu.be/cwR4CWzDtfQ. My boss has one and I started to listen to the laptop and yes it is kinda noisy. So there was this thinkpad. At amazon the X260 was USD 2750. Far from my spending range right now, so I decided to check classifieds for a used one. Keeping in mind the linux laptop for docker development, I found a thinkpad x240 which is a beast - 12,5"/i7 proc/8GB ram/256 ssd. its silent, portable enough, feels well built as most thinkpads, its possible to upgrade the memory to 16GB when I have the resources for it, has back-light keyboard, a nice keyboard indeed. The trackpad is sort of weird, but I am getting used to it. The version I got is a touchscreen HD display and not FHD, so my max res is 1366x768. Using the gnome tweak tool I was able to change some fonts and icons size, its just great now, feels like HD for me. Has 2 video ports, VGA and miniDV. it has card reader. Even a sim card modem built in. It was USD 500. I dont see myself changing to another one soon. And docker is flying over here - as well qemu. Cheers mates.
noir_lord 10y ago
> Cut the bullshit and just run Linux on the bare metal, I run Linux on Linux via vagrant, it's not about my program running faster it's about isolating a client projects dependencies from each other so when I have to work on that system that is still in production on PHP Current-1 or Ruby-1 I don't have to fuck with my host OS at all. In fact I have very few developer bits and bobs installed on the host (mostly just JetBrains stuff) and all the actual tooling is run in the VM, this makes for far easier deploys for myself since my process is pull projectname/(site||name), pull projectname/vagrant, vagrant up. It takes me less than 30 minutes from reinstalling to having half a dozen projects with all their weird dependencies and cruft installed and I never have to worry about breaking something else or needing to blow away a machine for some reason. I'm happy to trade some performance for running damn near everything in a guest OS for that.
- thesandlord 10y ago
  Curious, why Vagrant and not Docker? Then you don't need to run a VM, but still get the same isolation.
  - mmatoscom 10y ago
    well pointed!
  - luos 10y ago
    I am guessing is that when he started working on this stuff docker was in it's infancy (still is IMHO), and had no reason/time to port it.
    - BlackFingolfin 10y ago
      Or you could have glanced at the article and seen that your guess is wide off the mark.. ;-)
      - jholman 10y ago
        Which article?
chris_wot 10y ago
I thinkimux is rather hit and miss when it comes to battery life on Linux. I've never really quite understood why, as I though ACPI is meant to handle this. But I'm not terribly au fait with this interface, so there might be good reasons, I know Torcalds criticised it early on as a "design disaster" and there were and I think still are concerns about the way that bytecode has unfettered access to the system.
jclardy 10y ago
Yeah, I wouldn't want a crummy windows trackpad taking up space either ;) also all Apple laptops are 16:10, other than the 11" MacBook Air.
- likeclockwork 10y ago
  What's a Windows trackpad?
gonzo 10y ago
> You will have to claw my x201 out of my cold dead hands, I've not found a single notebook (even the newer ThinkPads) that are as comfortable to use. I've got no crummy trackpad wasting space and a 16:10 display that's designed for work, and not watching cat videos. the X201 has a trackpad. The X1 carbon (and several other models) have 2560x1440 displays.
- amiga-workbench 10y ago
  The x201 was the last ThinkPad to offer NOT having a Trackpad, you just swap the palmrest. http://mos6581.com/pictures/thinkpad/201-palmrest.jpg http://mos6581.com/pictures/thinkpad/201-palmrest.jpg
tvon 10y ago
> (...) most developers setting up vagrant on their Mac just to get a working environment. What kind of working environment requires setting up Vagrant on OSX? It's a Unix-based OS, if you're doing any web development you can do it on the host system.
- amiga-workbench 10y ago
  You generally develop on the platform that your software will end up running on, and nobody in their right mind uses OSX on a server.
  - Const-me 10y ago
    If you have a SaaS product that needs 3D rendering on the server, Windows and Linux servers that have a GPU are targeted towards GPGPU and are expensive to rent. MacPros have two descent AMD FirePro GPUs but much cheaper to rent.
  - tvon 10y ago
    If you are trying to match your production platform then you will use a VM of some sort in Linux anyway. If you are not trying to match your production platform then you can develop just fine on OSX.
- DCoder 10y ago
  Isolation and reproduction. For one thing, you want the development environment to be as similar to production as possible – same OS version, same webserver version, same DB version, same dependencies, no unwanted extras that differ between environments. For another thing, you don't want to have to solve conflicts between project A and completely unrelated project T if you need to work on them both.
  - tvon 10y ago
    If you care about isolation and reproduction then you're using a VM anyway and the host OS is completely irrelevant.

j7ake 10y ago

You hinted at it in the end: MacBooks have good software that works. No troubles connecting to peripherals like printers and projectors. No worries about laptop sucking battery when I close the lid and forget to sleep. And MacBooks have the best touchpad of all laptops.

xanderstrike 10y ago
> MacBooks have good software that works I just spent my entire workday struggling to figure out why `kernal_task` was constantly using 16gb of RAM. Whenever people say macOS "just works" I assume they do nothing but web browse. It's great at that.
- Retra 10y ago
  Your OS manages all of your memory. You can't get any memory at all without asking it for it. How much memory were you requesting, and why didn't you get it? Is that the problem you were solving? Is there some reason you suspect the OS preferentially gives memory to web browsers?
- pinneycolton 10y ago
  Did you figure it out? If not, you may want to try choosing "All processes, hierarchically" from the View menu in Activity Monitor.
  - xanderstrike 10y ago
    I "solved" the problem by restoring a week old backup from before I'd upgraded to Sierra. All other things were equal, so the OS was the culprit. This is why good backups are important, never know when Apple's gonna screw you.
- j7ake 10y ago
  The browser takes up most of takes up most of my resources. Apart from that it would be Adobe products and sometimes MATLAB (all less resources than safari). My terminal would be negligible. I agree with your comment. Generally, OSX often means I am using more resources to do the same task than when I use my archlinux. But in the era of 16g+ ram and terabyte Harddisks, I find it simpler to just let OSX use extra resources so I can spend less time thinking about low level processes.

djsumdog 10y ago

A lot of developers love their Macs and I don't get it. For me OSX 10.6 was the last decent one. Mission Control is garbage compared to Expose. I got so frustrated with it that I started running Linux in a VM on my Mac as my primary system. I also got into tiling window managers, which killed every going back to Mac/Windows. Today's Dell and Lenovo laptops are good Linux dev machines. I've never had a problem with putting Linux one one, either my Dell Inspiron at work or my XPS at home. My old first gen carbon can even run FreeBSD-11 fine. Everything worked straight off with a stock kernel and the current linux-firmware package. At one time, Macs were more cost effective for the specs you got. But with all the ram and SSD storage you can pack into modern laptops, they're really good dev machines.

copperx 10y ago
Decent machines indeed as long as you are close to a wall socket. Linux power management has a lot of growing up to do.
- marcelluspye 10y ago
  My experience with linux power management has been alright, or at least better than my expectations. I have an asus laptop that gets f*-all battery life under windows (either 8 or 10, though it seems to be worse now) but I can usually get at least 90 minutes more out of it under linux. It took some tweaking to get to that point, and I have no macbooks to compare it to, but I think the situation isn't as grim as I see a lot of people say it is.
  - rajivm 10y ago
    I'm not sure if this is a fare comparison, but my MB Air can easily get 9-10 hours of battery life (if I don't run Chrome).
- muro 10y ago
  Agreed. Lenovo claims "up to" 9 hours for the 3rd gen X1 carbon, I get at most 5 under linux.

krisdol 10y ago

You're in a thread responding to someone (who I happen to agree with as well) that disagrees with you on "There is no way a Macbook can compete with a proper Thinkpad". It's a bit a of a bold claim. I disagree with you on the keyboard and the navigation. The solid aluminum construction of the MBP is one of the best aspects of it, next to the display. I've dropped the thing probably 20 times without issue. I will admit, knowing how carbon feels on my bike, I'm curious about how it looks and feels on the X1. My 5 year old MBPr still gets 5 hours of battery life while the Thinkpad I had got 30 minutes when it reached the 4 year mark. Not in the valley, by the way, and I also prefer linux.

abecedarius 10y ago
Curious: my 2012 X1 Carbon still runs about as long as ever from battery. (It never got 5 hours, more like 4.)
- mst 10y ago
  My X61s (with extended battery) went from ~12h to 9-10h over the four years or so I was using it.

rayiner 10y ago

> There is no way a Macbook can compete with a proper Thinkpad [2] for programmer productivity: the keyboard, the UltraNav, the swappable batteries (you can fly around the world with a x260 + spare battery), a nice docking station Keyboard and UltraNav are more taste than anything else. I have a T450s for work and a 15" rMBP and vastly prefer the keyboard/touchpad on the latter. It doesn't help that Lenovo's QA is shit. My T450s keyboard is bulging in the bottom right of the keyboard deck, and several of the keys stick for a millisecond on the way down. As if they're not quite seated properly and hitting the key causes something to click into place. I suspect it's temperature related, because it goes away after typing for awhile, but comes back after a bit of non-use. > upgradeable storage/memory Programmers are expensive. No reason not to buy a maxed-out machine to begin with. Also, it's hard to get over Lenovo's penchant for shit displays if your job is to stare at text all day.

tikhonj 10y ago
I have an X1 Yoga (a touchscreen equivalent of the X1 Carbon) with an OLED display and it's absolutely gorgeous. It's much better than the ~1 year old Mac Book Pro I have for work. The colors and contrast are incredible—it can even render a black that doesn't glow at all.
- balakk 10y ago
  The Carbon is touchscreen, just not a convertible.
  - ElijahLynn 10y ago
    The X1 Carbon (4th gen) mentioned in this thread is not a touchscreen, they don't seem to offer a Carbon Touch anymore. It appears the X1 Yoga is essentially the Carbon Touch.
    - balakk 10y ago
      Agreed, I was wrong. I have a 2015 X1 Carbon, which has a touch-screen. I'm surprised they removed this, it's quite decent. But it is unlikely that I'll miss it.

masklinn 10y ago

> There is no way a Macbook can compete with a proper Thinkpad Your criticisms are pretty almost all a matter of taste, and we're in disagreement just about throughout. > I wonder if it's the Valley culture? I'm not in the valley. I've never found any non-apple laptop with a good (or even decent) trackpad, and I like that OSX has a community of indie developers who actually care. > the keyboard I don't enjoy thinkpad keyboard. > the UltraNav Same as above but much stronger, I absolutely hate this thing, and I love Apple trackpad. In fact the trackpad is one a huge reason for remaining on Apple laptops despite other shortcomings: I can and even enjoy using MBPs without a mouse. > the swappable batteries have never been something I've needed, plus that requires carrying additional batteries. > a nice docking station Meh. "nice" is in the eye of the beholder, the thing's ugly as sin. And with type C/TB3, you can actually replicate it without being beholden to Apple (!). > upgradeable storage/memory That is indeed a really annoying "feature" of Apple over the last few years. Though of course you can get a maxed-out MBP. > Linux distro and I don't see that as an advantage. > The gap is huge! If a Thinkpad is a 100, the prev. gen Macbook Pro would be 60 If you like thinkpads more power to you, but all my experiences with them were disappointing, I'd put the 2015 rMBP at 70 and the average thinkpad at 40, maybe 50.

corn13read 10y ago
You've never used a business thinkpad for more than 15 minutes
- CountSessine 10y ago
  That's interesting - do you know him?
snuxoll 10y ago
Eh, different strokes. Personally, I have a ThinkPad W540 for work and while it weighs like a brick man is it easy to work with. The UltraNav isn't as nice as the trackpad on my XPS 13, but I usually work with the TrackPoint on ThinkPad's anyway (killer feature for me to be honest, even Apple's awesome trackpad disappointments in comparison to a good ol' TrackPoint in my opinion) - upgrading the RAM and SSD required a couple screws for the appropriate bays in the base cover instead of needing to take the whole thing off like my old 2012 MBP. Also, while USB Type-C and ThunderBolt 3 "work" for a dock, being able to plop by ThinkPad down on my desk at home and have it start charging and connect all of my peripherals is still easier than plugging in a cable (even if it's just one cable). Also, as far as Linux support I guess that all really depends on the individual. Most of my workflow is heavily dependent on Linux (Java/Python dev in JetBrains products, ansible stuff, administering a couple dozen Linux VM's) with the exception of our .Net apps (where I run Visual Studio in a Windows VM) - there's not a whole lot of benefit to me running macOS, and in fact, I'd really rather run Fedora (call me an oddball I guess) since anything not getting deployed to a Windows server goes to a CentOS VM, makes moving from development to production a lot easier.

pyre 10y ago

> there is no way a Macbook can compete with a proper Thinkpad Isn't this one of those YMMV kinda things that really depends on the person, though? It seems equally wrong to say that no one could be productive on a MBP as it is to say that no one could be productive without a MBP.

phil21 10y ago

I used to be a strong Thinkpad adherent. But then Lenovo really jumped the shark, and I moved to a MBPr 2012 which was not even remotely in the same class as my T410s it was so much better. Maybe they are better these days, but I need to spend more time with one. But they changed the keyboard, the trackpads were almost laughable, and the battery life was an utter joke - not even enough juice for a MSP-LAS flight. Not to mention (at the time) laughable resolution, and miserable build quality compared to the IBM nameplate T-series. I'm looking for a nice 14-15" laptop like an old T60 that is built like a tank with amazing battery life. It's tempting for me to try the T-series line again, especially if they bring back the classic keyboard they so stupidly did away with. But for some time it was utterly stagnant and more or less unusable trash. I want to like the X1 Carbon

friedman23 10y ago

>I wonder if it's the Valley culture? There is no way a Macbook can compete with a proper Thinkpad [2] for programmer productivity: the keyboard, the UltraNav, the swappable batteries (you can fly around the world with a x260 + spare battery), a nice docking station, upgradeable storage/memory You completely missed the most important productivity tool for a programmer, the display and no thinkpad can compete with a macbook in that regard. In addition new Mac keyboards are better than new thinkpad keyboards. Mac trackpads are better than thinkpad trackpads, the ultranav is not good, battery life on macbooks are better than thinkpads and you don't need to carry extra batteries, and macbook docking solutions are better than thinkpad docking solutions. Also why would you want to use linux when that will 100% give you shorter than 4 hours battery life along with a host of other issues when you can use OSX and get good battery life along with a fully posix compliant os?

gonzo 10y ago

> the swappable batteries the Carbon X1 doesn't have swappable batteries.

krzyk 10y ago

I've got similar experience, but at my new employer. When I got an offer I had to choose which laptop (MacBook Pro or ThinkPad W, the recruited insisted on Mac), I chose Thinkpad because I'm a Linux person. Right now I'm the only programmer in my department that has a Thinkpad (and the only one that has Linux on a Thinkpad). Which is a strange thing for me, I always thought that Macs are more for designers or endusers not programmers/hackers (as you mostly are very limited at hacking on Mac, quite the opposite of Linux).

pimeys 10y ago
We have all the developers using Linux, and it-ops and product management using MacOS. For myself, instead of a laptop I ask for a custom workstation. For the same price, I get four fast cores, lots of RAM, lots of ports, huge monitors and lots of (fast) disk. I have a good sound setup there and developers usually don't do meetings or when we do it's whiteboard only and quick. I think it's very satisfying to use a minimal xmonad setup with a proper workstation, then running cmake and seeing your CPU and RAM is used in stuff that actually matters. If I need to do home office, I use my own laptop. But I prefer to be in the office, otherwise some of my time goes to the cats, who want attention the whole day. :3

dekhn 10y ago

Neal Stephenson summed all this up in In the Beginning Was the Command Line. Macs are beautiful, hermetically sealed devices that work perfectly until they explode. Linux (or thinkpads) are like M1 Abrams tanks you can service yourself, run forever on a nuclear battery, and people think you're weird if you have one.

Hydraulix989 10y ago

Hm, half the photos on the YC website front page have Thinkpads.