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How can they refuse to provide the recordings in case of a warrant? It makes no sense. They even acknowledge that the device is not always-on and therefore prob

How can they refuse to provide the recordings in case of a warrant? It makes no sense. They even acknowledge that the device is not always-on and therefore probably not useful. Because of bad publicity? If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? The recordings of the water meter is more interesting and the possible combination with other devices, including the Echo. In case of a housing with lots of IOT-Devices the police could reconstruct the actions within based on the stored information, like when did someone eat, turn on the lights, wash hands, open the door, watch TV...

FroshKiller 10y ago
A warrant is not the same as a subpoena. But look, "the innocent have nothing to hide" is an insidious and wrong idea. If people and corporations don't assert their rights against the will of the state, they erode the foundation of our shared liberties.
- forgetsusername 10y ago
  >But look, "the innocent have nothing to hide" is an insidious and wrong idea Very much agree, because there's a difference between being "innocent" and actually innocent. Only the former matters, it's subjective (jury/judge) and unknown to everyone but you, ex ante. Sometimes the police are more invested in finding a criminal rather than the criminal.
  - zubspace 10y ago
    Usually a warrant will only last a short time and the issuer must name a specific thing they are looking for. In this case it's clear that they only need to provide the data for a specific person. I also believe that Amazon could provide that data alone. So what makes them refuse?
    - jschwartzi 10y ago
      Because if they don't, I'll tell all my friends that Alexa is being used to monitor their speech for law enforcement, and to not say anything incriminating around one.
- zubspace 10y ago
  I'm not a lawyer, so excuse me if I'm asking trivial things: To obtain a search warrant or arrest warrant, the law enforcement officer must demonstrate probable cause that a search or seizure is justified. An authority, usually a magistrate, will consider the totality of circumstances and determine whether to issue the warrant. [1] I agree to your statement, if there is no search warrant. But in this case an authority already decided that the search is justified. What use are search warrants then if they can all be refused? I understand, that even a magistrate or whatever can make errors. But if this happens a lot, the consequence will be, that search warrants are issued without second thought and the person/company affected by the search should always deny it first. I'm all for privacy and defending individual rights, but cases like this make a farce out of court orders and the whole jurisdictional process. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fourth_amendment https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fourth_amendment
  - FroshKiller 10y ago
    I'm not a lawyer, either. But I don't think it's the case that any warrant can just be refused, more that the warrant itself can be challenged based on a lot of factors, like the burden placed on a company to deliver some evidence.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Do you mean farce out of the judicial process? It seems fairly likely that jurisdiction is what Amazon ended up challenging.
  - phil21 10y ago
    > But if this happens a lot, the consequence will be, that search warrants are issued without second thought and the person/company affected by the search should always deny it first. I think you'll find the vast majority of search warrants aren't even read by the judge signing them. When I owned a (hosting) company it was blatantly obvious reading them, and we had a policy of challenging them when possible. The whole search warrant/subpoena process is a joke. There is essentially no oversight on law enforcement whatsoever here and the whole trope of "but a judge reviewed it!" is a complete and utter outright lie in many cases.
smileysteve 10y ago
> If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Yes, if your legal team denies it as overly broad. They can also file an injunction. This is why you call a lawyer as soon as the police arrive w/ a warrant or ask you questions. > Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? Yes. Because you value your privacy of hobbies and speech. > I have nothing to hide. The average person breaks 3 laws a day. Whether that's speeding, texting while driving, having your friend over who left a dirty sock that smells like marijuana over. The police are "rewarded" when they find evidence of any crime, not just the one you are accused of. Not a great example of having nothing to hide, but a great example of a broad search that found an entirely different crime. Survivor contestant, Michael Skupin, was having financial documents searched by police when they found kiddie porn was sentenced yesterday.
- gravypod 10y ago
  Do you have a citation for the 3 times a day figure? I'm not disagreeing because I belive it's true. I'd just like to see some real data.
  - laichzeit0 10y ago
    You left out the part where you also want an actual "peer reviewed study". Must be new to HN.
  - jerf 10y ago
    Three crimes a day is probably a reference to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229 https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp... (I know it's better to provide references to web pages and not books, but I don't have a web page that recreates that book on hand. Suggestions welcome.) As I understand it, it's an estimate, not an actual figure. In order to perform such a survey, we'd have to sample people, record their entire daily activity, and determine how many crimes were committed. Determining how many crimes were committed would require an army of lawyers and private investigators... and that's the real point. As a normal citizen without an army of lawyers, you should have no confidence whatsoever that you are not committing crimes. If measured by "what could be used to convict you if the government wanted you out of the way" I'd guess 3 per day is a grotesque underestimate, at least one order of magnitude and I wouldn't bet much against 2.
jfoutz 10y ago
> If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Well, if you live in Seattle and the police are from Arkansas, yeah. They can ask, just like i could ask to search your house. Out of the state that grants them authority, they're just guys with a piece of paper.
jcrotor 10y ago
There are various tiers of customer information, specified by law that have different requirements legally to obtain. In many cases a broad search warrant doesn't justify the release of what would be considered sensitive data. The more sensitive the data is, the more difficult it is to obtain legally. I highly doubt Amazon is "refusing". They have a legal team and are simply enforcing the protections specified by law. If the Police can build a compelling case as to why they need the information and jump through the appropriate hoops, Amazon will turn it over. In many cases the Police just want the company to cooperate because there are many investigations, and only so many man hours to put towards each case. Amazon is doing the right thing here, and even if the suspect is guilty, I highly doubt his Amazon Echo recordings are going to be useful in the investigation. It is a no stone left unturned kind of thing though.
marcoperaza 10y ago
>If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? Contrary to what others on this thread are saying, no. You cannot deny them entry. At that point, in that situation, the police are authorized to use force to exercise that warrant and you have no recourse but to cooperate. I don't know where people get this silly idea that they can refuse. That's how you turn a peaceful affair into police busting down the door, legally shooting your alarmed dog, wrestling you into handcuffs, and executing the warrant by force. I wouldn't be surprised if your refusal to cooperate would be admissible as evidence of mens rea. Don't be stupid. The kind of warrant that Amazon is contesting is different than the kind that police show up at your door with. They could get one of those for Amazon too: a warrant to enter Amazon's buildings and seize servers, hard drives, papers, etc. If Amazon itself, or its employees, was suspected of criminal wrongdoing, and being investigated by a police force with physical jurisdiction over the locations to be searched, that would happen. Businesses are searched this way all the time.
atmosx 10y ago
> If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? Why don't you take the advice from someone who knows what he is talking about. If you're in on a hurry make sure you see part two: Part one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= interrogation (Mr. James Duane, a professor at Regent Law School and a former defence attorney) Part two: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE (Mr. George Bruch police officer, years of experienced in suspect interviews for the police and US navy.)
- santix 10y ago
  The first link got truncated. Should be this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

FroshKiller 10y ago

A warrant is not the same as a subpoena. But look, "the innocent have nothing to hide" is an insidious and wrong idea. If people and corporations don't assert their rights against the will of the state, they erode the foundation of our shared liberties.

forgetsusername 10y ago
>But look, "the innocent have nothing to hide" is an insidious and wrong idea Very much agree, because there's a difference between being "innocent" and actually innocent. Only the former matters, it's subjective (jury/judge) and unknown to everyone but you, ex ante. Sometimes the police are more invested in finding a criminal rather than the criminal.
- zubspace 10y ago
  Usually a warrant will only last a short time and the issuer must name a specific thing they are looking for. In this case it's clear that they only need to provide the data for a specific person. I also believe that Amazon could provide that data alone. So what makes them refuse?
  - jschwartzi 10y ago
    Because if they don't, I'll tell all my friends that Alexa is being used to monitor their speech for law enforcement, and to not say anything incriminating around one.
zubspace 10y ago
I'm not a lawyer, so excuse me if I'm asking trivial things: To obtain a search warrant or arrest warrant, the law enforcement officer must demonstrate probable cause that a search or seizure is justified. An authority, usually a magistrate, will consider the totality of circumstances and determine whether to issue the warrant. [1] I agree to your statement, if there is no search warrant. But in this case an authority already decided that the search is justified. What use are search warrants then if they can all be refused? I understand, that even a magistrate or whatever can make errors. But if this happens a lot, the consequence will be, that search warrants are issued without second thought and the person/company affected by the search should always deny it first. I'm all for privacy and defending individual rights, but cases like this make a farce out of court orders and the whole jurisdictional process. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fourth_amendment https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fourth_amendment
- FroshKiller 10y ago
  I'm not a lawyer, either. But I don't think it's the case that any warrant can just be refused, more that the warrant itself can be challenged based on a lot of factors, like the burden placed on a company to deliver some evidence.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Do you mean farce out of the judicial process? It seems fairly likely that jurisdiction is what Amazon ended up challenging.
- phil21 10y ago
  > But if this happens a lot, the consequence will be, that search warrants are issued without second thought and the person/company affected by the search should always deny it first. I think you'll find the vast majority of search warrants aren't even read by the judge signing them. When I owned a (hosting) company it was blatantly obvious reading them, and we had a policy of challenging them when possible. The whole search warrant/subpoena process is a joke. There is essentially no oversight on law enforcement whatsoever here and the whole trope of "but a judge reviewed it!" is a complete and utter outright lie in many cases.

smileysteve 10y ago

> If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Yes, if your legal team denies it as overly broad. They can also file an injunction. This is why you call a lawyer as soon as the police arrive w/ a warrant or ask you questions. > Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? Yes. Because you value your privacy of hobbies and speech. > I have nothing to hide. The average person breaks 3 laws a day. Whether that's speeding, texting while driving, having your friend over who left a dirty sock that smells like marijuana over. The police are "rewarded" when they find evidence of any crime, not just the one you are accused of. Not a great example of having nothing to hide, but a great example of a broad search that found an entirely different crime. Survivor contestant, Michael Skupin, was having financial documents searched by police when they found kiddie porn was sentenced yesterday.

gravypod 10y ago
Do you have a citation for the 3 times a day figure? I'm not disagreeing because I belive it's true. I'd just like to see some real data.
- laichzeit0 10y ago
  You left out the part where you also want an actual "peer reviewed study". Must be new to HN.
- jerf 10y ago
  Three crimes a day is probably a reference to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229 https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp... (I know it's better to provide references to web pages and not books, but I don't have a web page that recreates that book on hand. Suggestions welcome.) As I understand it, it's an estimate, not an actual figure. In order to perform such a survey, we'd have to sample people, record their entire daily activity, and determine how many crimes were committed. Determining how many crimes were committed would require an army of lawyers and private investigators... and that's the real point. As a normal citizen without an army of lawyers, you should have no confidence whatsoever that you are not committing crimes. If measured by "what could be used to convict you if the government wanted you out of the way" I'd guess 3 per day is a grotesque underestimate, at least one order of magnitude and I wouldn't bet much against 2.

jfoutz 10y ago

> If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Well, if you live in Seattle and the police are from Arkansas, yeah. They can ask, just like i could ask to search your house. Out of the state that grants them authority, they're just guys with a piece of paper.

jcrotor 10y ago

There are various tiers of customer information, specified by law that have different requirements legally to obtain. In many cases a broad search warrant doesn't justify the release of what would be considered sensitive data. The more sensitive the data is, the more difficult it is to obtain legally. I highly doubt Amazon is "refusing". They have a legal team and are simply enforcing the protections specified by law. If the Police can build a compelling case as to why they need the information and jump through the appropriate hoops, Amazon will turn it over. In many cases the Police just want the company to cooperate because there are many investigations, and only so many man hours to put towards each case. Amazon is doing the right thing here, and even if the suspect is guilty, I highly doubt his Amazon Echo recordings are going to be useful in the investigation. It is a no stone left unturned kind of thing though.

marcoperaza 10y ago

>If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? Contrary to what others on this thread are saying, no. You cannot deny them entry. At that point, in that situation, the police are authorized to use force to exercise that warrant and you have no recourse but to cooperate. I don't know where people get this silly idea that they can refuse. That's how you turn a peaceful affair into police busting down the door, legally shooting your alarmed dog, wrestling you into handcuffs, and executing the warrant by force. I wouldn't be surprised if your refusal to cooperate would be admissible as evidence of mens rea. Don't be stupid. The kind of warrant that Amazon is contesting is different than the kind that police show up at your door with. They could get one of those for Amazon too: a warrant to enter Amazon's buildings and seize servers, hard drives, papers, etc. If Amazon itself, or its employees, was suspected of criminal wrongdoing, and being investigated by a police force with physical jurisdiction over the locations to be searched, that would happen. Businesses are searched this way all the time.

atmosx 10y ago

> If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? Why don't you take the advice from someone who knows what he is talking about. If you're in on a hurry make sure you see part two: Part one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= interrogation (Mr. James Duane, a professor at Regent Law School and a former defence attorney) Part two: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE (Mr. George Bruch police officer, years of experienced in suspect interviews for the police and US navy.)

santix 10y ago
The first link got truncated. Should be this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik