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9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

72 points by amyjess 10y ago

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
sharemywin 10y ago
I think this focus in corporate america and startups on "winner take all" and only hire elite is hurting the economy. Because we've allowed monopolies for so long and they've multiplied, it's great for companies and investors, horrible for the economy at large.
- devoply 10y ago
  One reason for this is that the market heavily favors this and the outcomes are highly dependent on this sort of behavior. Technology makes winner take all scenarios possible, not just monopoly though that's a part of it. Capital runs after the winner takes all facilitated by technology.
  - sharemywin 10y ago
    look at smtp/pop or http or html all perfectly none winner take all tech which works pretty darn well yet everything is moving to winner take all because investors make more money.
- cabinguy 10y ago
  I agree. Capitalism is by far the best system, but its glory days (in the U.S.) have passed us by. I drove through the downtown area of my hometown this past weekend and tried to convince my wife that it was once a vibrant business district. When I was a kid in the 80's, every storefront was filled with local businesses bearing family names. Today there is only a collection of small-town dive bars, a tattoo shop and a gas station. Of course there is a Target, Walmart, Home improvement center & large furniture store out on the highway that squeezed the life out of the family businesses a long time ago. It's really sad.
  - sharemywin 10y ago
    Scary part is single point of failure. the more centralized a system is the bigger the catastrophic failure is.
flippy2 10y ago
Honestly. If the author can't make it in SV due to having a rough ride they should look outside the area. There are plenty of companies needing IT workers across the USA and moving to one of them sounds like a good way for him to get back on his feet.
- M4v3R 10y ago
  He's not an engineer though, at least from what I read in the article. He wrote: > I was still able to get customer support position quickly, learning skills on the job > My background in IT and customer support, both considered the bottom rung at most tech companies, meant that I was expendable So it seems he didn't really have higher qualifications, working in customer support, which is nowadays often outsourced and probably underpaid. I feel sympathy for the author, but at the same time one thing that I miss from the article is whether he tried to raise his qualifications in any way. Did he try other market segments? Picked up any courses? Broadened his education in any way in the time he was unemployed? The market is saturated with unqualified workers so it's really not so shocking that people are having hard time finding work.
  - Theodores 10y ago
    The problem with customer support is that people can stay doing it until they get automated out of existence, during which time the writing on the wall is clear. Do they apply for other vacancies in the company or do things such as improve the documentation that the customers need? In my experience there are plenty that do not, they roll on to thr next temp/customer service job to get stuck in that groove.
  - DashRattlesnake 10y ago
    > I feel sympathy for the author, but at the same time one thing that I miss from the article is whether he tried to raise his qualifications in any way. Did he try other market segments? Picked up any courses? Broadened his education in any way in the time he was unemployed? Raising qualifications usually costs money. He's tried when he had work. When he didn't it sounds like money was so tight and stress to high that he couldn't afford it and was focused on the immediate need to get another job. Strategic thinking and action is actually a bit of a luxury. He wrote: > Often, the jobs I could get were so disposable that I was never given responsibilities that could help me grow into a promotion, no matter how hard I pushed. > Even though my wife works a steady job, money has been tight — we’ve gone through periods where we’ve had only $30 to support a family of four for a whole week. Slipping into neurotic budgeting mode has become a well-rehearsed drill at this point. We cancel [all of the things]... > [W]e’re still living paycheck to paycheck. We’ve cashed out most of our savings accounts, including retirement, and haven’t been able to replenish them. > Every day involves endlessly scrolling through a list of jobs on Indeed.com and applying here and there with full knowledge that 99 percent of the time, I’ll never hear back.
tjic 10y ago
I've met a lot of people who "couldn't" find a job. What they usually mean is "they can't find a job in the area they want, in the industry they want, doing the kind of work they want, at the salary they want, working for someone else." This is a highly overconstrained search. If / when people loosen one or more of these constraints, they're opportunities open right up. Like everyone, I prefer to get exactly what I want. ...but it doesn't always play out that way. When I've needed work and my dream job isn't there, I've worked in garbage industries, on crappy projects, at places that are long commutes, etc., and I've been swamped with work for 25 years.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  This guy seems to fall into that category: "There have been times where I’ve wondered if I should just get a temporary service or manual labor job...I would be too humiliated... It would be exceptionally difficult to work eight hours a day hoping with all my might that a neighbor or friend wouldn’t swing by to see me working the cash register or pumping gas." This is a definitive example of the prideful worker effect. It's kind of crazy how our modern culture substitutes "can't" for "won't". Meanwhile, this guy says he doesn't have skills with modern technologies and he spends 4 hours/day ("a quick glance at Twitter to see what’s going on in the world, and then I look up and it’s 1:15") procrastinating rather than learning those technologies. Hardly a surprise that no one wants to hire him, I certainly never would.
  - tjic 10y ago
    At one point early in my software career I was between jobs for a few months. I have construction skills, so I worked doing demolition and then framing an addition for a friend at $10/hr. To quote Pulp Fiction "The night of the fight, you may feel a slight sting. That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps." Over a couple of weeks I made a few thousand dollars, paid the mortgage, and got some exercise. ...and, besides, there's nothing embarrassing about using your hands and your back.
    - larksimian 10y ago
hartator 10y ago
> That’s when the distraction starts. I promise myself, just a quick glance at Twitter to see what’s going on in the world, and then I look up and it’s 1:15 in the afternoon. Twitter is my heroin — it’s endless content, and if I’m bored by one tweet, I just go on to the next one. I think the danger of unlimited news is understated. The addiction is as bad as other forms of drugs. Ok, maybe not as bad as heroin, but I don't think we are far form that.
- criddell 10y ago
  I think you're right. Earlier this year, I read about the book Deep Work in a comment thread on HN. I bought the book and read it pretty quickly (it's an easy read) and it really resonated with me. The author, Cal Newport wrote a piece a couple of days ago on digital minimalism that I think the author of the vox article should read: http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/12/18/on-digital-minimalism/ http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/12/18/on-digital-minimalism/ My interpretation is that by compulsively refreshing Twitter (or HN), you're giving away your most valuable assets - time and attention. I'm working on spending my time more wisely and reading Deep Work is already paying off for me.
  - hartator 10y ago
    Just ordered deep work. And still. Despite knowing the issue, we are here commenting on HN. :)
- nunez 10y ago
  I agree. I used to browse the front page of Reddit endlessly, especially on days off despite only caring about a few subreddits. Now that I consume them through my Feedly, I'm on Reddit much less. I have trouble trying to consume the Internet when I'm bored, which is good because that makes more time for reading books that help my career.
sickbeard 10y ago
Bet he voted to "make America Great again". I feel for him but i believe the signs were there about the field he was working in, it's like a car sputtering and running out of gas. The solution would be reeducation, rather than trying to do the same dying job over and over gain.
- sctb 10y ago
  We've asked you several times not to post like this here, so we've banned the account.
  - sickbeard 10y ago
    I will really miss those internet points
mathattack 10y ago
I've been unemployed. It's tough but sometimes you have to let your vanities and pride take a hit and go for the job that's there.
alvaromuir 10y ago
Here's the thing. A: in 7 years he couldve gone back to school to learn something else B: most smaller schools I know waive tuition if your unemployed. C: What's this idea of "stopped looking for work" ? And people say all of us minorities are the ones who want handouts. I've supported a family of 3 on $36k. In New York City. It wasn't easy but I had to do what I had to do.
- mcguire 10y ago
  "...most smaller schools I know waive tuition if your unemployed." Could you provide a few examples? I've never heard of such a thing.
MatekCopatek 10y ago
To anyone recommending different approaches that could help this guy get a job - look at it from the other side. There are 9 million unemployed men such as this one (according to the article). This doesn't mean that there are 9 million job openings out there, just waiting for someone with the right resume to show up. Sure, there are probably some, but mostly, this simply means there are 9 million more workers than jobs. Educating the unemployed will only help individuals beat someone else in the competition of scoring a job, it won't help unemployment as a whole.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  This guy openly admits he could find work, but doesn't due to his pride. There are lots of jobs out there that Americans (like this guy) "just won't do". He's in the bay area, I know that Handy and Uber are hiring. It won't be hard for him to find domestic labor for $12/hour. After das trumpenfuhrer builds his wall and deports the illegals, there will be about 10M job openings. Lets be realistic and acknowledge that this guy will refuse to take every single one of those 10M jobs.
  - Beltiras 10y ago
    Das trumpenfuhrer and realistic are not congruent.
  - stonemetal 10y ago
    Heck there will probably be 11M jobs, someone has to man the walls to repel the ladders and pour boiling oil in the tunnels.
- acedinlowball 10y ago
  > There are 9 million unemployed men > this simply means there are 9 million more workers than jobs what an outrageous and uninformed thing to say. Can you please edit or delete your comment?
peapicker 10y ago
Lots of people ask, here and on other forums, things like: "Should I get/finish a CS(or other technical) degree? what's the point?" If nothing else, it give you credentials to help avoid this sort of situation in the field you wish to work in. Not many employers look for humanities majors to run their IT when there are many other applicants with credentials.
dbg31415 10y ago
What I want to tell the author... Buddy, you're in a rut. You're only 47 -- that means you've got 20-25 more years to work. If you do it right and earn the ability to retire. What happened yesterday is done. It's tomorrow you have to focus on. The only race is with yourself. You're letting the world get you down, and there's no reason for that. Every day is a new day to reinvent yourself; learn a new skill, fix a character trait you don't like / or that isn't working. Humans are fluid, adaptable. But... if you don't constantly seek change by perpetually improving yourself, you'll have to deal with change imposed on you by others -- making your own choices is how you stay empowered. Going to go through a bit more, point-by-point, and highlight why I feel this article is a cautionary tale. > While I majored in the humanities, I was still able to get customer support position quickly, learning skills on the job. So why not learn to code? You lived through the dot-com boom... no reason why you couldn't pick up a book and get more into technology. You've been around technology longer than some startup CEOs have been alive. Stop standing still, there are plenty of online resources and courses on how to learn new skills. > Budgeting has become a well-rehearsed drill Everyone should budget. If you don't have money you need to. If you have money and you don't budget, well... you'll probably need to soon enough. Also... move. Plenty of places that are a lot cheaper than California. > The job hunting process is pure drudgery See previous point... you need to keep working on improving yourself. The job process is "drudgery" because the market is saying, "We don't want what you're selling, go get something else and sell that." Additionally, if you ever get to this point where you are feeling down and out and hopeless... why would anyone want to hire you? Take the time you need to collect yourself, come back fresh. Again... not so much a choice, you won't have success trying to apply for jobs if your head isn't in the game -- so either you choose to take the time to get better, or you continue in a rut. > The days are long and boring So, you have lots of time to learn new skills, new technology, new platforms, or just read books? My mom used to tell me when I was growing up, "Only boring people get bored." If you're depressed, and it sounds like you are, just focus on moving. Walk as far as you can in a day. Try to beat your high score the next day... until you feel like doing something else. > There’s social stigma There's a stigma around saying, "I'm a failure, I'm a failure." Look at failure as an opportunity to learn. You talked about "being a consultant" and there's no reason why you can't be a consultant... fake it until you make it... all that. Maybe 1% of real SEO consultants know what they're doing... they all seem to make money off it (and even to be in that 1% doesn't take that much knowledge) -- an example of a non-technical job you can self-teach yourself into. Seven years off... I have to think there's something going on here. Possible someone is enabling you to make shitty life choices that put you in a depression spiral? You have the time, you have the ability, you the resources (as most of them are free and just require a computer)... you just to start taking small steps. Learn HTML + CSS, learn SEO, learn JavaScript... learn how to install WordPress themes (literally no coding required), learn how to use HubSpot, or Google Analyitcs, or any of the huge assortment of tools that people can make a living off of using. And don't stop learning. Set goals for yourself, and be wary of anyone who makes it easy to ignore those goals... Yes, it sucks to fail... and it's nice to have a warm bed to come home to -- win or lose... but when given the choice... skip the easy path (rut), go for the challenge -- that's how you learn and grow. The solution to your problems isn't on the easy path, you say you've been on that path for 7 years without success... time to try something new.
quickben 10y ago
There is nothing embarrassing about manual work. When I was 17, at one point, I sold toilet paper, on the street, in a third world country, to get some cash for my PC. Various jobs netted me half the cash for my PC over 6 months. My parents could scrape for the rest. 486dx-120mhz. Right now I'm in a comfortable seniority, renting a townhouse ( Toronto is too expensive to buy) and having a family. The c++ projects keep coming, I don't have to work with anything other than my fingers. Life is good. Would I, if anything happens, go back to selling toilet paper or digging cannals to survive and strive? Without a doubt. They raised me to believe there is no shame in manual work, and I still hold that true.
- jotato 10y ago
  You had Patents at 17?! Kudos! ;) My parents taught me the same way. I have worked many manual labor jobs, and I wouldn't blink an eye to go back if I had to. I wouldn't enjoy it but I have a family to support and I do what I must
  - quickben 10y ago
    Parents, sorry, edited it. Family does changed the outlook quite a bit though for some of the people I know.
  - dagw 10y ago
    I wouldn't enjoy it but I have a family to support and I do what I must What if you didn't have to support your family, since your wife could to that for you? Would you still feel the same drive to do so if it wasn't a "must"? Personally I feel that that is the crux of the article. He knows he can get a job, but he also knows he doesn't need to, and the sort of jobs he could get won't make a huge difference to their bottom line, and he's having a hard time reconciling all these things to himself.
    - quickben 10y ago
      Yes, I agree with you. Feeling "useful" is subjective but can influence one's self esteem a great deal. On the other end, not having choices can also be motivational. For example, surviving on a single slice of pizza every day ( because it's tax free if it's a slice) will do wonders for motivation once you have a job. So, it depends, happiness is subjective, but choices matter.
goshx 10y ago
What caught my eye is the fact that the author is surrounded by well paid people in the same field but he is not leveraging the Network that is at his disposal because he doesn't want to tell them the truth. To me this is the key of the issue. Asking for help may bring you the help you need, while not asking at all definitely won't bring you anything.
- otoburb 10y ago
  The author acknowledges this paradox at the bottom of the article: "That’s where the irony lies. I know that the way you get jobs is by getting out there and telling people you’re looking. Using your acquaintances as a network and strengthening social connections is the best way to eventually land employment. One day I’ll work up the courage. For now, my desperation is a quiet one, hiding behind school soccer pickups and the glow of a computer screen. For now, it’s still my secret."
pavel_lishin 10y ago
> There have been times where I’ve wondered if I should just get a temporary service or manual labor job to help out with extra cash. But I’m worried about getting stuck in a position with even less room for growth than my previous jobs. And to be honest, I would be too humiliated. Our social circle, made up of mostly well-paid tech workers and professionals, has no idea how bad our situation has been. It would be exceptionally difficult to work eight hours a day hoping with all my might that a neighbor or friend wouldn’t swing by to see me working the cash register or pumping gas. Seriously? You're living in a house your mother gave you, and you've got two children to feed, and you don't want to work at a gas station because you'd be embarrassed? Is this a weird cultural thing, where ten years of Russian upbringing followed by a decade plus in Texas, both rural in urban makes me incapable of feeling sympathy for a man who'd be too embarrassed to be seen feeding his family? How is that more shameful than writing an article for the world, admitting that you're too scared of a bit of social stigma to get a temporary job to help you get by?
- jwhitlark 10y ago
  I'd worry more about my wife and kids saw everyday, than what my social circle saw once in a while. I think he's got his priorities mixed up. I don't believe in "men's" work, "woman's" work, "immigrants" work... there is only work that needs doing. Being someone who is know to take on whatever needs doing is a great way to get better jobs.
- lj3 10y ago
  There are more practical considerations. Would you want to hire a 40-year old programmer who had just spent the last 3 months flipping burgers because he couldn't find a job? The stigma is real and it's more than just pride. A fall from middle class to lower class can become permanent through nothing more than that stigma. With that comes a higher mortality rate across the board.
  - extra88 10y ago
    If it was only three months, I wouldn't list the burger-flipping job on my resume. I think I'd be fine leaving any gap less than a year in duration on my resume. A year or more, I'd want to account for.
bhewes 10y ago
The silver lining as I read this is how this guy even with all the trouble has remained married provided for his children all while living in one of the most expensive areas in the world. And with offical unemployment at 4.5% as some else has mentioned jobs may not exist for these guys given the current economic structure. The demand is not there. Hopefully, no matter how imperfect, a large infrastructure investment happens and stimulates demand for prime age male workers.
jondubois 10y ago
Once you've reached that point, you can no longer afford to have pride. You have to do whatever it takes. You have to reach out to everyone you know for a job. You have to accept people's pity and take whatever you can get. If you don't have marketable skills, you need to switch to a low-ethics industry - It's less competitive. Find the jobs are considered wrong or unethical and which no one else wants to do - Those pay the best. When I was going through a hard time, I worked for a gambling company and made a ton of money. Making money feels good. My philosophy is that if you're a poor person with no savings, you shouldn't worry about how your work affects society; it's not your responsibility - Let those who are wealthy worry about that; they are the only ones who actually CAN do something about that. You do whatever it takes to get the money into your bank account. If society gets worse, then you have to get worse with it. If society degrades to the point that people are killing each other, you have to be prepared to fight for your survival.
jimlawruk 10y ago
I am sympathetic to the author. I know a few people who are very strong in the Humanities, are well-read, and have a mastery of the English language, but can't find a Humanities related job due to market saturation. My wife falls into this category. She would be hopeless at learning a "marketable" skill like HTML and JavaScript. Asking these people to serve as a cashier is a waste of literary talent. I don't have any great ideas on what to tell them. There needs to be a better solution than go work as a cashier or go learn JavaScript.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  > Asking these people to serve as a cashier is a waste of literary talent. How is it a waste of literary talent? To be crass, if they're currently producing something society doesn't value/want to pay for, how is being a cashier a waste?
nikki-9696 10y ago
"And to be honest, I would be too humiliated" Oh, cry me a river. I put myself through school on retail. I am a programmer. If I lost this job, I'd be back to retail in a heartbeat while I worked to find a new IT job. I have a very hard time having sympathy for someone who goes on and on about how bad he has it while he's not willing to work a job that is "beneath" him. What classes are you taking? What are you doing to get more relevant? Github is free. Resources are free. Many classes are free. Get your StackOverflow on. Shit, I get offers from there frequently and all I have done is answer some questions. Your kids are hungry because you're too good to get a job at a freaking grocery store??
antisthenes 10y ago
Well, HN never fails to to disappoint with the libertarian "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "just learn how to code" rhetoric. A slew of survivorship bias comments that seem to focus on the 1 sentence of the article, where the author is saying they do not consider a manual labor job to be practical, and neatly ignoring everything else. Here are some things most commenters have willingly ignored from the comfort of their privileged ignorance of economics: 1. Depending on your health, working a manual labor job at 47 may be a net negative value. Your body does not heal or recover that well from prolonged repetitive tasks, so working long days for a $12/hr wage may actually be a worse deal from not working at all. If this country had federal health care, then it might have made sense, but since we have the for-profit approach, it doesn't. This can be true even if he's in perfect health right now. 2. Ageism is more real than you think. Especially ageism when it comes to the resume and job history. Since he's not an engineer, the thought process of a potential employer goes like this: this guy is 47 and he hasn't held a management job once in his life, nor progressed beyond basic tech support and customer service. He also has a family, so he likely won't be willing to work extra hours for free and be as willing to be exploited as someone who is 23. 3. Applying for shitty jobs is more costly than applying for higher paying jobs. The application process for a job is taking a certain amount of time regardless of the job itself, but the since the payoff for a better job is much higher, it makes sense to apply only for jobs that pay above a certain threshold. This is especially true when you consider he is providing some benefit at home as a stay at home dad (presumably). If he's providing $10,000 in value by staying at home, It will be 6x as costly to apply for a $15,000 job than for a $40,000 job. 4. The social stigma and not being able to network: Networking works great when you're a professional that is able to get job offers without networking. It helps you get better jobs or more interesting jobs, but it doesn't suddenly elevate you from a non-professional status (tech support + customer service) to the status of a professional with the corresponding salary and benefits. The only case where this work is very entrenched nepotism, where someone unqualified could get a job for which they are not suited with compensation higher than their "real" market rate. Networking is mostly useless if you don't have the skills to back it up, like this guy. 5. The twitter sentence. I'm honestly shocked at some of the vitriol from the HN community here. Do none of you ever procrastinate? If I'm not mistaken, it's working hours right now, but most of you are finding the time to comment here, on HN. If you had ever spent job hunting for a significant amount of time, you'd know it's at least as mentally draining as any job, so getting distracted or having some down time isn't unwarranted. I could go on and on, but the gist of it is: show some goddamn compassion and maybe step outside of your bubble for once. The fact that this person is one of 9 MILLION should maybe at least tell you that it's a systematic problem, and not just a problem of "not being willing to work any job for fear of embarrassment" For every one unwilling to do manual labor like this guy, there's another one who is (aka the other 4.5 million).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
amiller2571 10y ago
This article scares me more than any horror movie ever has. I'm currently the sole provider for my family (thankfully, this will change in a few weeks), and even though I have a decently stable job that pays well. Losing it and not being able to get another is my worse nightmare (right after burning alive). I know it shouldn't bother me this much. I have had 7 interviews in my life and I only failed 2 of them. One of them being back in high school when I applied to Pepsi for stocking shelves. I know that if I would to ever actually end up in that kind of position, it would most likely be because of feared it so much that I made it happen to myself.

72 points by amyjess 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

I think this focus in corporate america and startups on "winner take all" and only hire elite is hurting the economy. Because we've allowed monopolies for so long and they've multiplied, it's great for companies and investors, horrible for the economy at large.

devoply 10y ago
One reason for this is that the market heavily favors this and the outcomes are highly dependent on this sort of behavior. Technology makes winner take all scenarios possible, not just monopoly though that's a part of it. Capital runs after the winner takes all facilitated by technology.
- sharemywin 10y ago
  look at smtp/pop or http or html all perfectly none winner take all tech which works pretty darn well yet everything is moving to winner take all because investors make more money.
cabinguy 10y ago
I agree. Capitalism is by far the best system, but its glory days (in the U.S.) have passed us by. I drove through the downtown area of my hometown this past weekend and tried to convince my wife that it was once a vibrant business district. When I was a kid in the 80's, every storefront was filled with local businesses bearing family names. Today there is only a collection of small-town dive bars, a tattoo shop and a gas station. Of course there is a Target, Walmart, Home improvement center & large furniture store out on the highway that squeezed the life out of the family businesses a long time ago. It's really sad.
- sharemywin 10y ago
  Scary part is single point of failure. the more centralized a system is the bigger the catastrophic failure is.

flippy2 10y ago

Honestly. If the author can't make it in SV due to having a rough ride they should look outside the area. There are plenty of companies needing IT workers across the USA and moving to one of them sounds like a good way for him to get back on his feet.

M4v3R 10y ago
He's not an engineer though, at least from what I read in the article. He wrote: > I was still able to get customer support position quickly, learning skills on the job > My background in IT and customer support, both considered the bottom rung at most tech companies, meant that I was expendable So it seems he didn't really have higher qualifications, working in customer support, which is nowadays often outsourced and probably underpaid. I feel sympathy for the author, but at the same time one thing that I miss from the article is whether he tried to raise his qualifications in any way. Did he try other market segments? Picked up any courses? Broadened his education in any way in the time he was unemployed? The market is saturated with unqualified workers so it's really not so shocking that people are having hard time finding work.
- Theodores 10y ago
  The problem with customer support is that people can stay doing it until they get automated out of existence, during which time the writing on the wall is clear. Do they apply for other vacancies in the company or do things such as improve the documentation that the customers need? In my experience there are plenty that do not, they roll on to thr next temp/customer service job to get stuck in that groove.
- DashRattlesnake 10y ago
  > I feel sympathy for the author, but at the same time one thing that I miss from the article is whether he tried to raise his qualifications in any way. Did he try other market segments? Picked up any courses? Broadened his education in any way in the time he was unemployed? Raising qualifications usually costs money. He's tried when he had work. When he didn't it sounds like money was so tight and stress to high that he couldn't afford it and was focused on the immediate need to get another job. Strategic thinking and action is actually a bit of a luxury. He wrote: > Often, the jobs I could get were so disposable that I was never given responsibilities that could help me grow into a promotion, no matter how hard I pushed. > Even though my wife works a steady job, money has been tight — we’ve gone through periods where we’ve had only $30 to support a family of four for a whole week. Slipping into neurotic budgeting mode has become a well-rehearsed drill at this point. We cancel [all of the things]... > [W]e’re still living paycheck to paycheck. We’ve cashed out most of our savings accounts, including retirement, and haven’t been able to replenish them. > Every day involves endlessly scrolling through a list of jobs on Indeed.com and applying here and there with full knowledge that 99 percent of the time, I’ll never hear back.

tjic 10y ago

I've met a lot of people who "couldn't" find a job. What they usually mean is "they can't find a job in the area they want, in the industry they want, doing the kind of work they want, at the salary they want, working for someone else." This is a highly overconstrained search. If / when people loosen one or more of these constraints, they're opportunities open right up. Like everyone, I prefer to get exactly what I want. ...but it doesn't always play out that way. When I've needed work and my dream job isn't there, I've worked in garbage industries, on crappy projects, at places that are long commutes, etc., and I've been swamped with work for 25 years.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
This guy seems to fall into that category: "There have been times where I’ve wondered if I should just get a temporary service or manual labor job...I would be too humiliated... It would be exceptionally difficult to work eight hours a day hoping with all my might that a neighbor or friend wouldn’t swing by to see me working the cash register or pumping gas." This is a definitive example of the prideful worker effect. It's kind of crazy how our modern culture substitutes "can't" for "won't". Meanwhile, this guy says he doesn't have skills with modern technologies and he spends 4 hours/day ("a quick glance at Twitter to see what’s going on in the world, and then I look up and it’s 1:15") procrastinating rather than learning those technologies. Hardly a surprise that no one wants to hire him, I certainly never would.
- tjic 10y ago
  At one point early in my software career I was between jobs for a few months. I have construction skills, so I worked doing demolition and then framing an addition for a friend at $10/hr. To quote Pulp Fiction "The night of the fight, you may feel a slight sting. That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps." Over a couple of weeks I made a few thousand dollars, paid the mortgage, and got some exercise. ...and, besides, there's nothing embarrassing about using your hands and your back.
  - larksimian 10y ago

hartator 10y ago

> That’s when the distraction starts. I promise myself, just a quick glance at Twitter to see what’s going on in the world, and then I look up and it’s 1:15 in the afternoon. Twitter is my heroin — it’s endless content, and if I’m bored by one tweet, I just go on to the next one. I think the danger of unlimited news is understated. The addiction is as bad as other forms of drugs. Ok, maybe not as bad as heroin, but I don't think we are far form that.

criddell 10y ago
I think you're right. Earlier this year, I read about the book Deep Work in a comment thread on HN. I bought the book and read it pretty quickly (it's an easy read) and it really resonated with me. The author, Cal Newport wrote a piece a couple of days ago on digital minimalism that I think the author of the vox article should read: http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/12/18/on-digital-minimalism/ http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/12/18/on-digital-minimalism/ My interpretation is that by compulsively refreshing Twitter (or HN), you're giving away your most valuable assets - time and attention. I'm working on spending my time more wisely and reading Deep Work is already paying off for me.
- hartator 10y ago
  Just ordered deep work. And still. Despite knowing the issue, we are here commenting on HN. :)
nunez 10y ago
I agree. I used to browse the front page of Reddit endlessly, especially on days off despite only caring about a few subreddits. Now that I consume them through my Feedly, I'm on Reddit much less. I have trouble trying to consume the Internet when I'm bored, which is good because that makes more time for reading books that help my career.

sickbeard 10y ago

Bet he voted to "make America Great again". I feel for him but i believe the signs were there about the field he was working in, it's like a car sputtering and running out of gas. The solution would be reeducation, rather than trying to do the same dying job over and over gain.

sctb 10y ago
We've asked you several times not to post like this here, so we've banned the account.
- sickbeard 10y ago
  I will really miss those internet points

mathattack 10y ago

I've been unemployed. It's tough but sometimes you have to let your vanities and pride take a hit and go for the job that's there.

alvaromuir 10y ago

Here's the thing. A: in 7 years he couldve gone back to school to learn something else B: most smaller schools I know waive tuition if your unemployed. C: What's this idea of "stopped looking for work" ? And people say all of us minorities are the ones who want handouts. I've supported a family of 3 on $36k. In New York City. It wasn't easy but I had to do what I had to do.

mcguire 10y ago
"...most smaller schools I know waive tuition if your unemployed." Could you provide a few examples? I've never heard of such a thing.

MatekCopatek 10y ago

To anyone recommending different approaches that could help this guy get a job - look at it from the other side. There are 9 million unemployed men such as this one (according to the article). This doesn't mean that there are 9 million job openings out there, just waiting for someone with the right resume to show up. Sure, there are probably some, but mostly, this simply means there are 9 million more workers than jobs. Educating the unemployed will only help individuals beat someone else in the competition of scoring a job, it won't help unemployment as a whole.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
This guy openly admits he could find work, but doesn't due to his pride. There are lots of jobs out there that Americans (like this guy) "just won't do". He's in the bay area, I know that Handy and Uber are hiring. It won't be hard for him to find domestic labor for $12/hour. After das trumpenfuhrer builds his wall and deports the illegals, there will be about 10M job openings. Lets be realistic and acknowledge that this guy will refuse to take every single one of those 10M jobs.
- Beltiras 10y ago
  Das trumpenfuhrer and realistic are not congruent.
- stonemetal 10y ago
  Heck there will probably be 11M jobs, someone has to man the walls to repel the ladders and pour boiling oil in the tunnels.
acedinlowball 10y ago
> There are 9 million unemployed men > this simply means there are 9 million more workers than jobs what an outrageous and uninformed thing to say. Can you please edit or delete your comment?

peapicker 10y ago

Lots of people ask, here and on other forums, things like: "Should I get/finish a CS(or other technical) degree? what's the point?" If nothing else, it give you credentials to help avoid this sort of situation in the field you wish to work in. Not many employers look for humanities majors to run their IT when there are many other applicants with credentials.

dbg31415 10y ago

What I want to tell the author... Buddy, you're in a rut. You're only 47 -- that means you've got 20-25 more years to work. If you do it right and earn the ability to retire. What happened yesterday is done. It's tomorrow you have to focus on. The only race is with yourself. You're letting the world get you down, and there's no reason for that. Every day is a new day to reinvent yourself; learn a new skill, fix a character trait you don't like / or that isn't working. Humans are fluid, adaptable. But... if you don't constantly seek change by perpetually improving yourself, you'll have to deal with change imposed on you by others -- making your own choices is how you stay empowered. Going to go through a bit more, point-by-point, and highlight why I feel this article is a cautionary tale. > While I majored in the humanities, I was still able to get customer support position quickly, learning skills on the job. So why not learn to code? You lived through the dot-com boom... no reason why you couldn't pick up a book and get more into technology. You've been around technology longer than some startup CEOs have been alive. Stop standing still, there are plenty of online resources and courses on how to learn new skills. > Budgeting has become a well-rehearsed drill Everyone should budget. If you don't have money you need to. If you have money and you don't budget, well... you'll probably need to soon enough. Also... move. Plenty of places that are a lot cheaper than California. > The job hunting process is pure drudgery See previous point... you need to keep working on improving yourself. The job process is "drudgery" because the market is saying, "We don't want what you're selling, go get something else and sell that." Additionally, if you ever get to this point where you are feeling down and out and hopeless... why would anyone want to hire you? Take the time you need to collect yourself, come back fresh. Again... not so much a choice, you won't have success trying to apply for jobs if your head isn't in the game -- so either you choose to take the time to get better, or you continue in a rut. > The days are long and boring So, you have lots of time to learn new skills, new technology, new platforms, or just read books? My mom used to tell me when I was growing up, "Only boring people get bored." If you're depressed, and it sounds like you are, just focus on moving. Walk as far as you can in a day. Try to beat your high score the next day... until you feel like doing something else. > There’s social stigma There's a stigma around saying, "I'm a failure, I'm a failure." Look at failure as an opportunity to learn. You talked about "being a consultant" and there's no reason why you can't be a consultant... fake it until you make it... all that. Maybe 1% of real SEO consultants know what they're doing... they all seem to make money off it (and even to be in that 1% doesn't take that much knowledge) -- an example of a non-technical job you can self-teach yourself into. Seven years off... I have to think there's something going on here. Possible someone is enabling you to make shitty life choices that put you in a depression spiral? You have the time, you have the ability, you the resources (as most of them are free and just require a computer)... you just to start taking small steps. Learn HTML + CSS, learn SEO, learn JavaScript... learn how to install WordPress themes (literally no coding required), learn how to use HubSpot, or Google Analyitcs, or any of the huge assortment of tools that people can make a living off of using. And don't stop learning. Set goals for yourself, and be wary of anyone who makes it easy to ignore those goals... Yes, it sucks to fail... and it's nice to have a warm bed to come home to -- win or lose... but when given the choice... skip the easy path (rut), go for the challenge -- that's how you learn and grow. The solution to your problems isn't on the easy path, you say you've been on that path for 7 years without success... time to try something new.

quickben 10y ago

There is nothing embarrassing about manual work. When I was 17, at one point, I sold toilet paper, on the street, in a third world country, to get some cash for my PC. Various jobs netted me half the cash for my PC over 6 months. My parents could scrape for the rest. 486dx-120mhz. Right now I'm in a comfortable seniority, renting a townhouse ( Toronto is too expensive to buy) and having a family. The c++ projects keep coming, I don't have to work with anything other than my fingers. Life is good. Would I, if anything happens, go back to selling toilet paper or digging cannals to survive and strive? Without a doubt. They raised me to believe there is no shame in manual work, and I still hold that true.

jotato 10y ago
You had Patents at 17?! Kudos! ;) My parents taught me the same way. I have worked many manual labor jobs, and I wouldn't blink an eye to go back if I had to. I wouldn't enjoy it but I have a family to support and I do what I must
- quickben 10y ago
  Parents, sorry, edited it. Family does changed the outlook quite a bit though for some of the people I know.
- dagw 10y ago
  I wouldn't enjoy it but I have a family to support and I do what I must What if you didn't have to support your family, since your wife could to that for you? Would you still feel the same drive to do so if it wasn't a "must"? Personally I feel that that is the crux of the article. He knows he can get a job, but he also knows he doesn't need to, and the sort of jobs he could get won't make a huge difference to their bottom line, and he's having a hard time reconciling all these things to himself.
  - quickben 10y ago
    Yes, I agree with you. Feeling "useful" is subjective but can influence one's self esteem a great deal. On the other end, not having choices can also be motivational. For example, surviving on a single slice of pizza every day ( because it's tax free if it's a slice) will do wonders for motivation once you have a job. So, it depends, happiness is subjective, but choices matter.

goshx 10y ago

What caught my eye is the fact that the author is surrounded by well paid people in the same field but he is not leveraging the Network that is at his disposal because he doesn't want to tell them the truth. To me this is the key of the issue. Asking for help may bring you the help you need, while not asking at all definitely won't bring you anything.

otoburb 10y ago
The author acknowledges this paradox at the bottom of the article: "That’s where the irony lies. I know that the way you get jobs is by getting out there and telling people you’re looking. Using your acquaintances as a network and strengthening social connections is the best way to eventually land employment. One day I’ll work up the courage. For now, my desperation is a quiet one, hiding behind school soccer pickups and the glow of a computer screen. For now, it’s still my secret."

pavel_lishin 10y ago

> There have been times where I’ve wondered if I should just get a temporary service or manual labor job to help out with extra cash. But I’m worried about getting stuck in a position with even less room for growth than my previous jobs. And to be honest, I would be too humiliated. Our social circle, made up of mostly well-paid tech workers and professionals, has no idea how bad our situation has been. It would be exceptionally difficult to work eight hours a day hoping with all my might that a neighbor or friend wouldn’t swing by to see me working the cash register or pumping gas. Seriously? You're living in a house your mother gave you, and you've got two children to feed, and you don't want to work at a gas station because you'd be embarrassed? Is this a weird cultural thing, where ten years of Russian upbringing followed by a decade plus in Texas, both rural in urban makes me incapable of feeling sympathy for a man who'd be too embarrassed to be seen feeding his family? How is that more shameful than writing an article for the world, admitting that you're too scared of a bit of social stigma to get a temporary job to help you get by?

jwhitlark 10y ago
I'd worry more about my wife and kids saw everyday, than what my social circle saw once in a while. I think he's got his priorities mixed up. I don't believe in "men's" work, "woman's" work, "immigrants" work... there is only work that needs doing. Being someone who is know to take on whatever needs doing is a great way to get better jobs.
lj3 10y ago
There are more practical considerations. Would you want to hire a 40-year old programmer who had just spent the last 3 months flipping burgers because he couldn't find a job? The stigma is real and it's more than just pride. A fall from middle class to lower class can become permanent through nothing more than that stigma. With that comes a higher mortality rate across the board.
- extra88 10y ago
  If it was only three months, I wouldn't list the burger-flipping job on my resume. I think I'd be fine leaving any gap less than a year in duration on my resume. A year or more, I'd want to account for.

bhewes 10y ago

The silver lining as I read this is how this guy even with all the trouble has remained married provided for his children all while living in one of the most expensive areas in the world. And with offical unemployment at 4.5% as some else has mentioned jobs may not exist for these guys given the current economic structure. The demand is not there. Hopefully, no matter how imperfect, a large infrastructure investment happens and stimulates demand for prime age male workers.

jondubois 10y ago

Once you've reached that point, you can no longer afford to have pride. You have to do whatever it takes. You have to reach out to everyone you know for a job. You have to accept people's pity and take whatever you can get. If you don't have marketable skills, you need to switch to a low-ethics industry - It's less competitive. Find the jobs are considered wrong or unethical and which no one else wants to do - Those pay the best. When I was going through a hard time, I worked for a gambling company and made a ton of money. Making money feels good. My philosophy is that if you're a poor person with no savings, you shouldn't worry about how your work affects society; it's not your responsibility - Let those who are wealthy worry about that; they are the only ones who actually CAN do something about that. You do whatever it takes to get the money into your bank account. If society gets worse, then you have to get worse with it. If society degrades to the point that people are killing each other, you have to be prepared to fight for your survival.

jimlawruk 10y ago

I am sympathetic to the author. I know a few people who are very strong in the Humanities, are well-read, and have a mastery of the English language, but can't find a Humanities related job due to market saturation. My wife falls into this category. She would be hopeless at learning a "marketable" skill like HTML and JavaScript. Asking these people to serve as a cashier is a waste of literary talent. I don't have any great ideas on what to tell them. There needs to be a better solution than go work as a cashier or go learn JavaScript.

jimmywanger 10y ago
> Asking these people to serve as a cashier is a waste of literary talent. How is it a waste of literary talent? To be crass, if they're currently producing something society doesn't value/want to pay for, how is being a cashier a waste?

nikki-9696 10y ago

"And to be honest, I would be too humiliated" Oh, cry me a river. I put myself through school on retail. I am a programmer. If I lost this job, I'd be back to retail in a heartbeat while I worked to find a new IT job. I have a very hard time having sympathy for someone who goes on and on about how bad he has it while he's not willing to work a job that is "beneath" him. What classes are you taking? What are you doing to get more relevant? Github is free. Resources are free. Many classes are free. Get your StackOverflow on. Shit, I get offers from there frequently and all I have done is answer some questions. Your kids are hungry because you're too good to get a job at a freaking grocery store??

antisthenes 10y ago

Well, HN never fails to to disappoint with the libertarian "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "just learn how to code" rhetoric. A slew of survivorship bias comments that seem to focus on the 1 sentence of the article, where the author is saying they do not consider a manual labor job to be practical, and neatly ignoring everything else. Here are some things most commenters have willingly ignored from the comfort of their privileged ignorance of economics: 1. Depending on your health, working a manual labor job at 47 may be a net negative value. Your body does not heal or recover that well from prolonged repetitive tasks, so working long days for a $12/hr wage may actually be a worse deal from not working at all. If this country had federal health care, then it might have made sense, but since we have the for-profit approach, it doesn't. This can be true even if he's in perfect health right now. 2. Ageism is more real than you think. Especially ageism when it comes to the resume and job history. Since he's not an engineer, the thought process of a potential employer goes like this: this guy is 47 and he hasn't held a management job once in his life, nor progressed beyond basic tech support and customer service. He also has a family, so he likely won't be willing to work extra hours for free and be as willing to be exploited as someone who is 23. 3. Applying for shitty jobs is more costly than applying for higher paying jobs. The application process for a job is taking a certain amount of time regardless of the job itself, but the since the payoff for a better job is much higher, it makes sense to apply only for jobs that pay above a certain threshold. This is especially true when you consider he is providing some benefit at home as a stay at home dad (presumably). If he's providing $10,000 in value by staying at home, It will be 6x as costly to apply for a $15,000 job than for a $40,000 job. 4. The social stigma and not being able to network: Networking works great when you're a professional that is able to get job offers without networking. It helps you get better jobs or more interesting jobs, but it doesn't suddenly elevate you from a non-professional status (tech support + customer service) to the status of a professional with the corresponding salary and benefits. The only case where this work is very entrenched nepotism, where someone unqualified could get a job for which they are not suited with compensation higher than their "real" market rate. Networking is mostly useless if you don't have the skills to back it up, like this guy. 5. The twitter sentence. I'm honestly shocked at some of the vitriol from the HN community here. Do none of you ever procrastinate? If I'm not mistaken, it's working hours right now, but most of you are finding the time to comment here, on HN. If you had ever spent job hunting for a significant amount of time, you'd know it's at least as mentally draining as any job, so getting distracted or having some down time isn't unwarranted. I could go on and on, but the gist of it is: show some goddamn compassion and maybe step outside of your bubble for once. The fact that this person is one of 9 MILLION should maybe at least tell you that it's a systematic problem, and not just a problem of "not being willing to work any job for fear of embarrassment" For every one unwilling to do manual labor like this guy, there's another one who is (aka the other 4.5 million).

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

amiller2571 10y ago

This article scares me more than any horror movie ever has. I'm currently the sole provider for my family (thankfully, this will change in a few weeks), and even though I have a decently stable job that pays well. Losing it and not being able to get another is my worse nightmare (right after burning alive). I know it shouldn't bother me this much. I have had 7 interviews in my life and I only failed 2 of them. One of them being back in high school when I applied to Pepsi for stocking shelves. I know that if I would to ever actually end up in that kind of position, it would most likely be because of feared it so much that I made it happen to myself.