6 ms·

College to use RFID to check class attendance

23 points by duck 17y ago

tseabrooks 17y ago
I'm not sure I 'get' the aims of the college here. Why is it important for these students to be in class? I would expect the important bits from the colleges perspective would be: Did the student pay tuition? Did the student learn the material the class covered? I can't see any other things the university need worry about and I can't see how either of those two questions could lead to the need for some strict attendance policies that are connected to student grades. Perhaps, the school is concerned that if people don't come to class and still do well it will become common knowledge that students can learn the same material more effectively on their own. Bad news, I think that cats already out of the bag.
- joezydeco 17y ago
  As a parent who plans to pay for my son's college education, I think I'd like this system. It's a lot harder for a student to whine "I'm failing this class! This biased professor hates me!" while being able to discover that sonny-boy was only in class 25% of the time.
  - philk 17y ago
    Tell your kids you'll only pay for classes they pass and don't accept any excuses. I never found lectures to be particularly useful anyway.
    - jimbokun 17y ago
      Did you ask questions? If there were too many students to ask questions, I agree. In that case, you might as well be watching a video lecture at your own convenience. I find the ability to ask at least an occasional question during a lecture, however, a big part of the value of taking a college course.
      - philk 17y ago
        The lectures were unfortunately too big to ask questions. Ultimately I found that to learn effectively I needed to try applying the material to problems, try to solve the problems, and then use questions to overcome any sticking points I was having. I'm not sure it can really be done effectively in anything but the smallest of classes.
    - FluidDjango 17y ago
      > I never found lectures to be particularly useful anyway. Nor I. You and I are not the norm (evidence: we are on HN). But I have taught in a community college in rural/bluecollar area where the only hope that some students had of breaking out of their apathetic, educationally-clueless family/community was to have instructor(s) who mentored them - that is connected personally. Being present in class was not sufficient for them to transcend the crippling effects of their upbringings. But it was the first (and necessary) step for those without other mentors in their lives. [ Apologies for any arrogant sound in the above. Calling it like I have seen it. ]
      - tseabrooks 17y ago
        Hmmm. I'm 26 and I still forget all the times my dad admonish me for overestimating people. "You can't assume everyone else thinks like you do or knows all the things you do". I think the problem though is when you 'require' all students to be in class as part of your grade. This is little different than classrooms in a high school that are set up to help students falling behind that end up hurting / punishing the top performing students.
    - drewcrawford 17y ago
      Your advice is in fact superior. But, from the university's standpoint, which strategy is a better selling point? Tracking attendance "solves" the problem of, you know, actually having to parent your kids. I bet there's a lot of parents who want to pay for that.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    > while being able to discover that sonny-boy was only in class 25% of the time. If that's the case the problem likely commenced at a much earlier date, and no RFID'ing is going to change it.
- harry 17y ago
  It is a waste of resources for a college to recruit, advise and coddle an incoming class of students to only lose 20-25% of them due to fail outs after the first two semesters. Retention is a huge issue at state level universities. It's not really important that every kid goes to class, it's important for the university to be able to identify when a kid who usually goes to class suddenly stops. Computer attendance tracking is something the administration of KU have tossed around. They want to do a few things with it: 1. provide an early indication whether or not a student may be struggling due to something like alcohol abuse or personal difficulties that the university has structures/programs existing for support. (here, they will likely avoid the more big brother tag readers or "id card swipes in class" and use a metrics looking at meal plan use, gym activities, and student activity involvement.) 2. They'd like to very quickly nail down who is in what room in case of an emergency. (Chem lab catching fire, gunman, rabid badgers) This is pretty much a C-Y-A maneuver. 3. provide a system to the faculty that do pass around paper to opt-in and use. The paper passing around is hokey and requiring students to purchase a 50$ license for a 50$ 'click pad' ontop of the 150$ book is seen as asinine. I don't necessarily agree with any of this, it's just what has been discussed here.
DeusExMachina 17y ago
Every time I read of control system like this one, I always think about 1984 from George Orwell. That book really changed the way I look at things. When all these systems will be in place, what will prevent some entity to use them improperly? I really find these things scary when I look at them.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Orwell wasn't wrong, he was simply a little late. The funny thing is that the countries best protected against this kind of bull-shit are the former sov-block countries. They have seen what all this can lead to in living memory, it seems to work like a vaccin.
philk 17y ago
If students are able to learn material on their own then I really can't understand why they should be forced to attend. If they don't attend and can't learn the material then just fail them.
- duck 17y ago
  I agree, but I never had a problem when some of my smaller classroom courses took attendance. In that setting there was a value added that even if you passed the class without going you missed a lot. However, lectures (which this article addresses) in general never added any addition value over the material, so this seems pointless.
  - Robin_Message 17y ago
    A lecture is a one-way process, so the it's up to the student if the lecture is worthwhile for them or not. If it's not, they shouldn't attend. If no-one attends, the lecturer needs training/putting out to pasture. Like you say though, it makes sense for a class where you are expected to participate, since then you will be teaching and learning from the other students as much or more than the teacher. The problem here is you, the student, have become part of the value proposition of the class -- and the penalty against non-attendance is not the school penalising you for reducing your own learning, but a discouragement from reducing the learning of others, who the school promised a classroom full of smart peers.
- anamax 17y ago
  > If students are able to learn material on their own then I really can't understand why they should be forced to attend. Attendance is part of how the school gets paid. (No, the students aren't paying much of its expenses.)
- jules 17y ago
  In some countries the government pays the universities money to educate students. The universities only get money for students that complete the education.
argv_empty 17y ago
I expect we're going to see a lot of students carrying each other's ID cards to class.
- angstrom 17y ago
  It's been going on for over 10 years already with barcode IDs in high schools. Now you don't even see the person doing it because they can hide 2 or more cards in a wallet and scan them all at once. The only tip would be a suspiciously close time stamp if anyone cares to look. A school setting is the worst environment you can possibly imagine trying to secure anything, let alone attendance.
kilian 17y ago
Given that most of the time, attendance is checked anyway, manually by the teacher, I really don't see the big problem here. If there is an attendance duty anyway, this is an excellent solution. It adds 10 minutes to each class by not having to spend the time calling out names and awaiting a "present" or "yea". More time for education while replacing an old-fashioned, outdated system with fancy "new" tech. Why the hate?
- jimbokun 17y ago
  The underlying technology can be used for purposes other than checking class attendance. As some of the concerned students note in the article, they could probably construct a record of students locations on campus throughout the day. Not difficult to imagine an administrator somehow abusing that information. If the RFID had an off switch, that might mitigate this concern. (Would be frustrating, though, if you forgot to turn it back on before class and thus did not get credit for attendance.)
  - kilian 17y ago
    That is suggesting the school will add RFID scanners on other places than doorposts in classrooms. Certainly that is evil, but it also isn't the case as of this moment.
arihant 17y ago
I remember a class at CMU where they used a Bluetooth based system.
jamesbressi 17y ago
I wonder if they are going to make students wear gold stars next? This isn't high school, Northern Arizona University, grow up.
- philk 17y ago
  EDIT: LOL, I get down-voted on this comment along with the parent who said they will be paying for their child's college soon and likes this system? That is comical. You, who through the first stone, are one of those people that must have structure and rules imposed on everyone because you have reformed and you can only feel in control by abiding and making others do so. You, yes YOU, made my day. I have a feeling the other HNers will override your foolishness. ...and now I regret voting you back up.
  - jamesbressi 17y ago
    I just voted you up, because I agree. Sorry I was a bit randy this morning.
  - joezydeco 17y ago
    And I'll vote you up too, because I'm that other guy that got downvoted. I guess I'm just from a different era. The attitude seems to be "they cashed my check, I can do what I want". Can't say that's totally a wrong attitude, given how colleges in the US work these days. There's a big "don't care" attitude on both sides of the fence now.
kahawe 17y ago
At my university we had to sign off on a sheet of paper for each class to document we were there. How does carrying around an RFID improve that? One could simply carry the chip cards for his buddies to class or to protest the system just wrap all chip cards in tin foil and claim the system obviously failed. This is much easier than learning to fake signatures. Apart from all that, as a student you should be mature enough to decide which classes you have to attend and which ones you simply study for on your own.
adolph 17y ago
File under your tax dollars (not) at work: "paid for by federal stimulus money"
gte910h 17y ago
I don't care how much value class attendance adds, students shouldn't be tracked like cattle, especially not 18+ year olds.
nostoc 17y ago
I would clone my RFID tag a few time and hide it everywhere on campus.
sireat 17y ago
Almost inevitably the classes which required attendance(or granted some sort of bonus) were the boring ones(bad lecturer, outdated concepts, unused concepts, etc). The interesting lecturers never had required attendance.
Groxx 17y ago
I'd get an RFID blocking wallet, and take photos to prove I was there. And I'd encourage others to do the same. Going to classes where the lecture was worthless (you know the ones: boring, nothing covered not in the book, tested on book-knowledge only, etc) has only hampered my education. Something like this would encourage every teacher to take attendance and penalize those who don't come; I can only see that as something bad for college. And, as others have pointed out, it doesn't prove someone was there. If anything it could give an easier way to slack, because you can point at the time and say "see, I was there" if they say you weren't. And who will the higher-ups believe? You, the teacher, or the timestamp? I'd be willing to bet the teacher, as you could just give someone your card, making the whole thing pointless. No, the blocking wallet is too minor. I'd be willing to bet the security on the RFID is minimal at best; I'd attempt to broadcast cards with an RF antenna and a dish, so everyone attends every class.
lurkinggrue 17y ago
It's just getting people ready for the mark of the beast.
pasbesoin 17y ago
Am I bad for thinking of a covert reader, some spare cards, and a bit (ok, a lot) of cloning? (Merely for purposes of promulgating false positive locations; not for theft.) I think I'm still this side of legal, for merely thinking of such a scheme. Next year, maybe not.

23 points by duck 17y ago

I'm not sure I 'get' the aims of the college here. Why is it important for these students to be in class? I would expect the important bits from the colleges perspective would be: Did the student pay tuition? Did the student learn the material the class covered? I can't see any other things the university need worry about and I can't see how either of those two questions could lead to the need for some strict attendance policies that are connected to student grades. Perhaps, the school is concerned that if people don't come to class and still do well it will become common knowledge that students can learn the same material more effectively on their own. Bad news, I think that cats already out of the bag.

joezydeco 17y ago
As a parent who plans to pay for my son's college education, I think I'd like this system. It's a lot harder for a student to whine "I'm failing this class! This biased professor hates me!" while being able to discover that sonny-boy was only in class 25% of the time.
- philk 17y ago
  Tell your kids you'll only pay for classes they pass and don't accept any excuses. I never found lectures to be particularly useful anyway.
  - jimbokun 17y ago
    Did you ask questions? If there were too many students to ask questions, I agree. In that case, you might as well be watching a video lecture at your own convenience. I find the ability to ask at least an occasional question during a lecture, however, a big part of the value of taking a college course.
    - philk 17y ago
      The lectures were unfortunately too big to ask questions. Ultimately I found that to learn effectively I needed to try applying the material to problems, try to solve the problems, and then use questions to overcome any sticking points I was having. I'm not sure it can really be done effectively in anything but the smallest of classes.
  - FluidDjango 17y ago
    > I never found lectures to be particularly useful anyway. Nor I. You and I are not the norm (evidence: we are on HN). But I have taught in a community college in rural/bluecollar area where the only hope that some students had of breaking out of their apathetic, educationally-clueless family/community was to have instructor(s) who mentored them - that is connected personally. Being present in class was not sufficient for them to transcend the crippling effects of their upbringings. But it was the first (and necessary) step for those without other mentors in their lives. [ Apologies for any arrogant sound in the above. Calling it like I have seen it. ]
    - tseabrooks 17y ago
      Hmmm. I'm 26 and I still forget all the times my dad admonish me for overestimating people. "You can't assume everyone else thinks like you do or knows all the things you do". I think the problem though is when you 'require' all students to be in class as part of your grade. This is little different than classrooms in a high school that are set up to help students falling behind that end up hurting / punishing the top performing students.
  - drewcrawford 17y ago
    Your advice is in fact superior. But, from the university's standpoint, which strategy is a better selling point? Tracking attendance "solves" the problem of, you know, actually having to parent your kids. I bet there's a lot of parents who want to pay for that.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  > while being able to discover that sonny-boy was only in class 25% of the time. If that's the case the problem likely commenced at a much earlier date, and no RFID'ing is going to change it.
harry 17y ago
It is a waste of resources for a college to recruit, advise and coddle an incoming class of students to only lose 20-25% of them due to fail outs after the first two semesters. Retention is a huge issue at state level universities. It's not really important that every kid goes to class, it's important for the university to be able to identify when a kid who usually goes to class suddenly stops. Computer attendance tracking is something the administration of KU have tossed around. They want to do a few things with it: 1. provide an early indication whether or not a student may be struggling due to something like alcohol abuse or personal difficulties that the university has structures/programs existing for support. (here, they will likely avoid the more big brother tag readers or "id card swipes in class" and use a metrics looking at meal plan use, gym activities, and student activity involvement.) 2. They'd like to very quickly nail down who is in what room in case of an emergency. (Chem lab catching fire, gunman, rabid badgers) This is pretty much a C-Y-A maneuver. 3. provide a system to the faculty that do pass around paper to opt-in and use. The paper passing around is hokey and requiring students to purchase a 50$ license for a 50$ 'click pad' ontop of the 150$ book is seen as asinine. I don't necessarily agree with any of this, it's just what has been discussed here.

DeusExMachina 17y ago

Every time I read of control system like this one, I always think about 1984 from George Orwell. That book really changed the way I look at things. When all these systems will be in place, what will prevent some entity to use them improperly? I really find these things scary when I look at them.

jacquesm 17y ago
Orwell wasn't wrong, he was simply a little late. The funny thing is that the countries best protected against this kind of bull-shit are the former sov-block countries. They have seen what all this can lead to in living memory, it seems to work like a vaccin.

philk 17y ago

If students are able to learn material on their own then I really can't understand why they should be forced to attend. If they don't attend and can't learn the material then just fail them.

duck 17y ago
I agree, but I never had a problem when some of my smaller classroom courses took attendance. In that setting there was a value added that even if you passed the class without going you missed a lot. However, lectures (which this article addresses) in general never added any addition value over the material, so this seems pointless.
- Robin_Message 17y ago
  A lecture is a one-way process, so the it's up to the student if the lecture is worthwhile for them or not. If it's not, they shouldn't attend. If no-one attends, the lecturer needs training/putting out to pasture. Like you say though, it makes sense for a class where you are expected to participate, since then you will be teaching and learning from the other students as much or more than the teacher. The problem here is you, the student, have become part of the value proposition of the class -- and the penalty against non-attendance is not the school penalising you for reducing your own learning, but a discouragement from reducing the learning of others, who the school promised a classroom full of smart peers.
anamax 17y ago
> If students are able to learn material on their own then I really can't understand why they should be forced to attend. Attendance is part of how the school gets paid. (No, the students aren't paying much of its expenses.)
jules 17y ago
In some countries the government pays the universities money to educate students. The universities only get money for students that complete the education.

argv_empty 17y ago

I expect we're going to see a lot of students carrying each other's ID cards to class.

angstrom 17y ago
It's been going on for over 10 years already with barcode IDs in high schools. Now you don't even see the person doing it because they can hide 2 or more cards in a wallet and scan them all at once. The only tip would be a suspiciously close time stamp if anyone cares to look. A school setting is the worst environment you can possibly imagine trying to secure anything, let alone attendance.

kilian 17y ago

Given that most of the time, attendance is checked anyway, manually by the teacher, I really don't see the big problem here. If there is an attendance duty anyway, this is an excellent solution. It adds 10 minutes to each class by not having to spend the time calling out names and awaiting a "present" or "yea". More time for education while replacing an old-fashioned, outdated system with fancy "new" tech. Why the hate?

jimbokun 17y ago
The underlying technology can be used for purposes other than checking class attendance. As some of the concerned students note in the article, they could probably construct a record of students locations on campus throughout the day. Not difficult to imagine an administrator somehow abusing that information. If the RFID had an off switch, that might mitigate this concern. (Would be frustrating, though, if you forgot to turn it back on before class and thus did not get credit for attendance.)
- kilian 17y ago
  That is suggesting the school will add RFID scanners on other places than doorposts in classrooms. Certainly that is evil, but it also isn't the case as of this moment.

arihant 17y ago

I remember a class at CMU where they used a Bluetooth based system.

jamesbressi 17y ago

I wonder if they are going to make students wear gold stars next? This isn't high school, Northern Arizona University, grow up.

philk 17y ago
EDIT: LOL, I get down-voted on this comment along with the parent who said they will be paying for their child's college soon and likes this system? That is comical. You, who through the first stone, are one of those people that must have structure and rules imposed on everyone because you have reformed and you can only feel in control by abiding and making others do so. You, yes YOU, made my day. I have a feeling the other HNers will override your foolishness. ...and now I regret voting you back up.
- jamesbressi 17y ago
  I just voted you up, because I agree. Sorry I was a bit randy this morning.
- joezydeco 17y ago
  And I'll vote you up too, because I'm that other guy that got downvoted. I guess I'm just from a different era. The attitude seems to be "they cashed my check, I can do what I want". Can't say that's totally a wrong attitude, given how colleges in the US work these days. There's a big "don't care" attitude on both sides of the fence now.

kahawe 17y ago

At my university we had to sign off on a sheet of paper for each class to document we were there. How does carrying around an RFID improve that? One could simply carry the chip cards for his buddies to class or to protest the system just wrap all chip cards in tin foil and claim the system obviously failed. This is much easier than learning to fake signatures. Apart from all that, as a student you should be mature enough to decide which classes you have to attend and which ones you simply study for on your own.

adolph 17y ago

File under your tax dollars (not) at work: "paid for by federal stimulus money"

gte910h 17y ago

I don't care how much value class attendance adds, students shouldn't be tracked like cattle, especially not 18+ year olds.

nostoc 17y ago

I would clone my RFID tag a few time and hide it everywhere on campus.

sireat 17y ago

Almost inevitably the classes which required attendance(or granted some sort of bonus) were the boring ones(bad lecturer, outdated concepts, unused concepts, etc). The interesting lecturers never had required attendance.

Groxx 17y ago

I'd get an RFID blocking wallet, and take photos to prove I was there. And I'd encourage others to do the same. Going to classes where the lecture was worthless (you know the ones: boring, nothing covered not in the book, tested on book-knowledge only, etc) has only hampered my education. Something like this would encourage every teacher to take attendance and penalize those who don't come; I can only see that as something bad for college. And, as others have pointed out, it doesn't prove someone was there. If anything it could give an easier way to slack, because you can point at the time and say "see, I was there" if they say you weren't. And who will the higher-ups believe? You, the teacher, or the timestamp? I'd be willing to bet the teacher, as you could just give someone your card, making the whole thing pointless. No, the blocking wallet is too minor. I'd be willing to bet the security on the RFID is minimal at best; I'd attempt to broadcast cards with an RF antenna and a dish, so everyone attends every class.

lurkinggrue 17y ago

It's just getting people ready for the mark of the beast.

pasbesoin 17y ago

Am I bad for thinking of a covert reader, some spare cards, and a bit (ok, a lot) of cloning? (Merely for purposes of promulgating false positive locations; not for theft.) I think I'm still this side of legal, for merely thinking of such a scheme. Next year, maybe not.