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One More Sign World Is Shrinking – eBay Is for Suckers

489 points by silverdrake11 10y ago

zeahfj 10y ago
I used to work at eBay Trust and Safety. The place is a nightmare and will not improve. The culture was destroyed by Meg Whitman and never recovered. This kind of fraud sticks out like a sore thumb in click stream. I had no trouble finding fraud and building algorithms to automatically detect it but I did find it impossible finding someone at eBay who cared enough to do anything about it. eBay still gets paid so no one wants to be in charge of a revenue hit. I doubt that's changed. Mark Carges tried to turn it around in 2008 and failed. I have high hopes Facebook can move into this space.
- icefox 10y ago
  But how would Facebook prevent the same fraud?
  - shard972 10y ago
    Probably in a similar way they tackled fake news, with all the finesse of a bull in a china shop.
    - zeahfj 10y ago
      The fake news was done badly on purpose so people would beg them for manual curation ;)
      - zeahfj 10y ago
        Interestingly this comment was voted up a bunch and then voted down a bunch. 'fake news' can be easily detected, not by the content but by those who share it. I've built similar stuff before but obviously can't talk about specifics without outing myself.
    - amenghra 10y ago
      http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/bull-in-a-china-shop/ http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/bull-in...
  - zeahfj 10y ago
    By emphasising local and by using the other details that they know about people to filter out fraudsters. Plus the long tail is filled with interest groups. Facebook already manages many of these groups and getting kicked out of such communities can be very costly.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    Right now much Facebook commerce is local. Sit in front of a target or supermarket on a Saturday afternoon and you'll see a half dozen Facebook mom transactions.
  - stirlo 10y ago
    My little sister tried to buy an iPhone on Facebook a year ago only to have the seller (a 15yo kid living in a village 6 hours drive away) try to scam her. Unluckily for this scammer she had used a real name and had a reasonable amount of public information on her profile. 6 hours drive away probably seems a world away to a 15yo but unfortunately for her my parents had relatives living only 20 mins away and they knew many people in her village. They simply went down to the local supermarket where they determined her mother worked and told her what happened (they also knew the kids address/school and social clubs but decided the mother was better to approach). Suffice to say the money was returned in full with an apology and a 15yo scammer hopefully learnt a valuable lesson. Nothing like this could ever happen on eBay and it was able to happen without access to the private information that Facebook would have if they implemented a reputation system.
  - manacit 10y ago
    Anecdata: I am the administrator of a ~12k person "Free & For Sale" FB group for the college that I graduated from. It's very high traffic, people are able to buy and sell a whole host of things very easily. I think Facebook has the potential to combine eBay and Craigslist as a platform to sell more "common" items. They won't be able to get your broken laser pointer to a broken laser pointer collector, but if you want to get rid of a bed/desk/cell phone/microwave, it's much easier to sell it to someone that lives 10 minutes away than to ship it across the country, and the risk of fraud is much lower. I know they have plans to scale this out and improve the experience of buying and selling things (I've been messaged by a few FB staff asking for feedback as they've added new features), but it definitely does not have the critical mass that CL has, and discovery (getting into the right group) is much harder.
- mahyarm 10y ago
  How about amazon? Are you still prone to the brick scam there?
  - rangibaby 10y ago
    Fufilled by Amazon is much safer and more reliable. I wouldn't spend money I would miss on an item from 3rd party sellers who handle their own shipping on Amazon.
    - cookiecaper 10y ago
      FBA takes a huge chunk out of the sale's proceeds. It easily converts what would otherwise be high-margin items into losers. That's not really a scenario that your average person trying to sell a used phone would expect. The seller is also responsible for collecting (done by Amazon) and remitting sales tax (NOT done by Amazon, afaik) on FBA transactions. The best option is to go local as a parent commenter already said. Ask the person to unbox and demo the item before you pay. If the product doesn't clearly work, leave without paying. Yard sale groups on Facebook, Craigslist, and an active region-specific classifieds site if there's one in your area are good places to make such arrangements. Don't meet at either party's home. The police station parking lot is best. Some police stations even have parking spots reserved for people who are performing transactions arranged online.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      Safer for who? We are talking about scam buyers here not scam sellers. Amazon handled my claim when I was scammed by a third party Amazon seller.
  - noonespecial 10y ago
    I have won on amazon as a seller by videoing the boxing of the original (playstation3) and unboxing the "return" (a broken VHS recorder). Its simple just to pull out your phone and grab a few seconds of sealing the box and putting on the label. Keep it for a few weeks until the transaction "settles" then delete.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
- yuhong 10y ago
  >Mark Carges tried to turn it around in 2008 and failed. I wonder why?
  - zeahfj 10y ago
    Typical corporate politics.
    - yuhong 10y ago
      I wonder if it is a case of people wanting to leave the company.
- adekok 10y ago
  > eBay still gets paid so no one wants to be in charge of a revenue hit. I doubt that's changed. That sounds like a class action suit waiting to happen. Or, a RICO lawsuit, where the government can pretty much prove that eBay is in cahoots with hordes of scammers.
  - jcranmer 10y ago
    https://popehat.com/2016/06/14/lawsplainer-its-not-rico-dammit/ https://popehat.com/2016/06/14/lawsplainer-its-not-rico-damm...
    - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
      Would you mind providing a summary of your position based on the link you provided.
      - jjoonathan 10y ago
        Seconded. @jcranmer, lawsplainer links to a "RICO case statement" which reads a bit like a checklist. While the checklist makes it obvious why lawsplainer's examples aren't RICO, to my untrained eye the checklist seems to match the proposed claims against ebay fairly well. Could you cite the specific items for which you think the case is weakest? https://popehat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Rico-Order.pdf https://popehat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Rico-Order.pd...
        icebraining 10y ago
        For one thing, you couldn't sue Ebay itself. From the link above: "Wait. Isn't the defendant the enterprise? No. In fact the defendant can't be the same as the enterprise. An enterprise is a legal entity or group of people. So, for instance, the Gambino Crime Family can be an enterprise, or Prenda Law. But the enterprise has to be different than the defendant for a RICO claim. Instead, the defendants have to be people and entities who run the enterprise."
  - nkw 10y ago
- uncletammy 10y ago
  Facebook can easily do better will ultimately fail for the same reasons. As long as the marketplace has incentive to alter the perception of buyer/seller reputation, it's doomed to become another ebay. If you have high hopes for anything, it should be for https://openbazaar.org https://openbazaar.org They attempt to solve the problem with "moderated payments" where the buyer pays into an escrow account which is jointly controlled by the buyer, the vendor, and a third party called a moderator. In order for the funds to leave the escrow, any two of these parties need to agree how to release the funds.
  - rjbwork 10y ago
    This is actually how some Bitcoin transactions take place, on the white, grey, and black markets. People build a reputation for honesty as an escrow, take a small fee, and facilitate transactions. They arbitrate disputes, and decide who to release the funds back to.
    - fapjacks 10y ago
      How hilarious, ironic, and fitting that dark markets operate more on a working platform of trust than friggin Ebay.
      - hellweaver666 10y ago
        Isn't escrow basically the opposite of trust? If you trust someone you don't need a middle man to make sure everything goes well.
        soylentcola 10y ago
        I guess it's more the acceptance that buyer/seller is an adversarial relationship so you need to at least be able to trust the system or framework to be impartial and enforce honesty.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        > Isn't escrow basically the opposite of trust? No, escrow is trust-as-a-service. That is, it's a means of removing the need for trust between the transaction principals by hiring a mutually-trusted third party.
- bhartzer 10y ago
  Interesting that you mention Facebook. Only decent experiences I've had lately has been posting something in closed "for sale" groups on Facebook and buying/selling something in person in my local area.
- Gustomaximus 10y ago
  > The culture was destroyed by Meg Whitman and never recovered. She joined with 30 employees and was CEO until 15,000 employees. I fail to see how she could have destroyed the culture or do you excpect a 30 person company culture to remain static? Am I mising somehting? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Whitman#eBay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Whitman#eBay
  - zeahfj 10y ago
    Meg was before my time. I got to see the aftermath and I heard many of the stories. eBay's success was in spite of Meg Whitman. It was a money printing machine. The first employee was hired to be the full time check casher. In the early days managers and engineers got along - then management gave themselves a ton of options and cut out the engineers. She then hired in a bunch of professional management (Harvard people) and outsourced the engineers to India. That was a disaster so they insourced the Indians to the US. This continued to be a disaster. The Indians are very tribal so not only is there office politics there is also tribal politics. Certain casts will refuse to work with each other. So yeah, pretty toxic.
    - IOT_Apprentice 10y ago
      I was there during and after Whitman. When Ebay was power diving into the ground. The story above about Ebay engineering is right on the money. So much politics, and jockeying to get to Sr Director or VP to get more stock grants. Ebay brought in a lot of ex Anderson consulting and outsourcing like there was no tomorrow. Trained Cognizant on the ecommerce business on their own dime, by paying outrageous fees for people with zero background in ecommerce or internet scale or data center ops. When times got tough they fired most contractors and insourced as described above. Very Game of thrones there. Toxic.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - yuhong 10y ago
      I wonder if there are CEOs who would be comfortable doing as little as possible all day long for years.
- quadrangle 10y ago
  Holy shit. The idea that I might actually feel good about "Facebook moving into this space" is insane! Shows how horrible eBay is. Gah.
- eofear 10y ago
  Nextdoor also doing this.. local based reduces scope for fraud..
ignorantguy 10y ago
I wouldn't recommend ebay to anyone at all. This article probably will help potential scammers to actually cheat more people.
- dawnerd 10y ago
  I'd only use it for low-value items and make sure you're shipping to a real address.
- waterphone 10y ago
  I buy and sell on it regularly and have done so for many years, with no issues ever. Fraud seems to be primarily focused in certain areas, and niche items—old tools, auto and small engine parts, used outdoor equipment, etc.—doesn't get impacted by those issues.
  - eric_h 10y ago
    Just wait until AI/ML gets good enough/easy enough to use that these scammers can go full auto. You'll send them a lawnmower and they'll dispute and send you back a pair of nail clippers.
- g00gler 10y ago
  I sell phones and other electronics on a semi regular basis. Usually the only problem I have is people who send obviously fake PayPal emails and request the phone be shipped overseas. No longer accepting addresses outside of the US helped reduce the spam.
mperham 10y ago
If you google the buyer's address, it's home to a package forwarding service. Do not ever do business with a buyer using such a service. 100% guarantee it's a scam. https://www.google.com/maps/place/78+McCullough+Dr,+New+Castle,+DE+19720/@39.6922734,-75.5688828,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c702fc680bcabd:0x4bf837ee53036895!8m2!3d39.6922734!4d-75.5666941 https://www.google.com/maps/place/78+McCullough+Dr,+New+Cast...
- adamredwoods 10y ago
  Isn't there a way that Ebay can automatically detect a mail forwarding service and flag addresses?
  - hydrogen18 10y ago
    They could, but there is no incentive to do so.
    - eric_h 10y ago
      In fact there's a disincentive. eBay made their commission on this sale, changing their policies would likely mess with both the top and bottom lines of their business.
      - duaneb 10y ago
        Trust has value, too. Just imagine how much money they'd make if they weren't known for being a terrible place to sell OR buy.
        eric_h 10y ago
        I agree. What percentage of the eBay-using population has reduced their trust in eBay as a result of this and many other articles on HN, though? The brand awareness of eBay has given them a great deal of trust runway that, IMO, they can burn through before it starts to actually affect the short term numbers that dominate the things that anyone actually acts on with large, publically traded companies.
noonespecial 10y ago
For what its worth, thats the "brick scam". As in "you can't sell apple stuff on ebay anymore because of the brick scam". Usually, they send you a return package with a rock or brick inside approximating the weight of the original package. Its famous enough at this point that its impossible that ebay is unaware. They are fully aware and are choosing to continue to profit off of this. So much so that the "shell game" the author faced is likely scripted by this point. Ebay consumes sellers as a raw material as part of the process. That's their business model.
- tananaev 10y ago
  Just want to point out that it's not always a planned scam on buyer's side. Actual item might be stolen/replaced on customs, post office, some package sorting facility or even by your neighbors. For a buyer eBay is a great place because everything is protected and you can always get a refund. For a seller, I guess you either have to accept the risk, or get some kind of insurance. Overall, I think auction places always attract scams, so there always be some risks involved.
  - MarkMc 10y ago
    > For a seller, I guess you either have to accept the risk, or get some kind of insurance. Or eBay pays the insurance cost out of the fees they charge.
    - seanp2k2 10y ago
      It's hard to prove anything without some type of escrow service. It'd be cool if eBay offered such a service for an additional fee.
      - 1_2__3 10y ago
        ...are you joking or serious?
        10y ago
jrs235 10y ago
This is why I'm starting to consider taking video of me packing and placing goods in the shipping box (while at the shipping company), placing the shipping label on the package, and dropping them off directly with UPS/USPS/FEDEX (all in a non clipped video). Then also recording the opening of any packages received in returns. Problem is this probably still wouldn't be enough evidence and sufficient for eBay.
- dwyer 10y ago
  The problem that the author describes is that eBay does not accept proof and offers no way to submit it.
  - awqrre 10y ago
    You could always include a URL in your claim, to youtube or something else...
    - pmlnr 10y ago
      Upload the video right after post to a service, maybe as private. Since normal mortals don't have the power to backdate upload times, this might work as proof.
- theli0nheart 10y ago
  I take a video while boxing and make sure to capture the label. Like you said though, I doubt this would be enough to win an appeal.
- sigmar 10y ago
  He said he used UPS Pack and Ship. Which should be even better proof than the video you described, since it is a third party vouching for what was put into the box.
- DrScump 10y ago
  Having all the video, witnesses, and documentation in the world can't help you when eBay refuses to review any of it.
rickyc091 10y ago
Ugh, sorry you had to go through this. I was in a similar case not too long ago. Basically the same start... the item arrived and a claim was filed stating that the phone wasn't working. I offered to help since it was perfectly fine before I shipped it, but I was ignored. I waited until the last date before accepting the return. As Matt mentioned, eBay basically forces you to accept the return or you lose the item. The buyer never shipped it back so it finally timed out after another 30 days and I was able to file a claim and get my money back. Good to know I can unlink from PayPal since they pulled the funds directly from my account. I was in a negative balance. Here's the kicker. If you decide to checkout on any site using PayPal, they'll actually authorize the full balance behind the scenes. I was definitely surprised when I saw a $400 charge for a $11 item I paid for. eBay sucks for sellers, but you typically still get the best value aside from dealing with criagslist.
imgabe 10y ago
It sounds like they still have their money and eBay is "demanding payment". Is there any reason to give into this demand? Obviously the Ukrainian scammer is not going to sue. It seems unlikely that eBay is going to sue over $465. So, keep the money and don't use eBay anymore (which it seems like was the case anyway).
- Sgt_Apone 10y ago
  I imagine it could work its way to collections eventually, but I'm not sure.
  - eric_h 10y ago
    Once the debt has been sold and resold a few times, I doubt collections companies have much incentive to actually sue for this amount of money, let alone an ability to actually win the case.
    - asp_hornet 10y ago
      They don't need to sue, they can just list your debt with credit listing company and put a mark on your credit history. That can be annoying enough to settle a debt.
      - eric_h 10y ago
        From personal experience neglecting debts I believed to be unjust, I've not gotten any dings on my credit rating inspired by collections companies who acquired the debt for the cable box that I never returned, after paying 3x its value in rental fees. This didn't stop them from calling me and threatening my credit rating, but it seems their threats had no teeth. /anecdata
- jbmorgado 10y ago
  The Ukrainian scammer already got the money, the buyer is refunded automatically after the claim process ends, now eBay will try to force the money out of the seller.
em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
eBay is centralized moderation. Maybe a distributed p2p market-based moderation with reputation scores for moderators in addition to sellers, like openbazaar, is the solution: https://blog.openbazaar.org/how-moderators-and-dispute-resolution-work-in-openbazaar/ https://blog.openbazaar.org/how-moderators-and-dispute-resol...
- edpichler 10y ago
  The same happens in Mercadolivre, an Ebay Company in Latin America. They protect buyers, because where there are buyers always will have sellers. Dishonest people paradise, unfortunatelly.
djoldman 10y ago
Why not just pick "no returns accepted" when selling?
- st3v3r 10y ago
  It sounds like they did.
- wnissen 10y ago
  He did. You are still required to accept returns if buyer claims the item is not as described.
andrewclunn 10y ago
Okay... So how is this evidence that the world is small?
- sooheon 10y ago
  Maybe because scammers that live worlds away, who you'd never have had to deal with in physical life are "near" to you now?
  - Mathnerd314 10y ago
    Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn-ym8y1_kw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn-ym8y1_kw The buyer is in the Ukraine, usually considered a faraway place.
ars 10y ago
What I do to protect myself is record a video of me packaging and shipping the item. I record the video at the post office itself, and of course include a shot of the post office. Start the video showing a closeup of the item, then record yourself packaging and sealing the box, and putting on the address label - then very important record an image of the address label, and finally walk it over to the drop box, put it in, and pan wide to record the building. Make SURE never to have the item go off frame or people will say you pulled a trick. The post office where I am is open 24/7 and deserted at night, so it's easy. When I shipped UPS the guy looked at me funny and warned me he didn't want to be in the video, but other than that I was able to record (and I included the tracking receipt I got from them in the video). It's a lot easier if you have a second person holding the camera, but it's also possible with a tripod, or even just holding it if you prepare all the tape stuck on one side of the flap so you can work one-handed. Do a test shot to make sure your video camera is good enough that you can actually read the address label - and even better the serial number on the product. Keep the video for a long time, several months. I've never actually had to use any of the videos I've made, but I keep making them anyway.
- thenewwazoo 10y ago
  You missed the part of the article where eBay's appeals process has no mechanism by which you can submit your carefully-filmed masterpiece. :)
  - eric_h 10y ago
    They accept text though, right? URLs are text. Not that I'm convinced that this would actually work with a behemoth that still makes money in situations of this type of fraud.
  - ars 10y ago
    The article says: “… but, unfortunately, we didn’t receive proof that the buyer caused the issue.” Sounds like there is a way to submit proof, and this video would be proof. But, it's very important to "test" the buyer - have them document what they claim they received. Then this video can refute that. Once they ship it to you it's too late - they'll claim they shipped an iPhone.
intrasight 10y ago
I've not used eBay in years as a seller - ever since they started withholding my funds pending approval/release by buyer. Now I just use Craig's List and Facebook and sell face-to-face. And as a bonus, I've met some pretty cool people.
neutered_knot 10y ago
This has been going on forever. Here is an example from 2007, almost identical to the one in the post. https://ask.metafilter.com/77638/Can-I-trust-PayPals-seller-protection-If-not-what-can-go-wrong#1208841 https://ask.metafilter.com/77638/Can-I-trust-PayPals-seller-...
Dowwie 10y ago
This is loosely related to the subject but I wanted to point out a scam that I was victim to and nearly lost more than a grand:. PayPal doesn't protect vacation rental by owner scams. The reason that this was a close call rather than complete catastrophe was that I had the listing reviewed by the service's internal investigation team while I transacted. The team altered me of fraud, I responded immediately with PayPal to learn that hey guess what - their fraud claims policy excludes vacation rental services! They refused to help me. Further, the scammer knew this policy limitation, and even left me a troll voicemail as I was escalating the scam that was along the lines of "guess what? PayPal won't refund you!" Fortunately, I used a credit card for payment. I managed to file a claim with the credit card company and reverse the fraudulent charge. The reason I escalated this listing as a concern was that it had zero reviews and was new. The owner was also a bit too accommodative of my requests. I proceeded with caution. I went to the authorities about this, including the secret service, who for whatever reason handles fraud like this. I never heard back from anyone.
- eric_h 10y ago
  > I managed to file a claim with the credit card company and reverse the fraudulent charge. The power of the chargeback is unappreciated by many, I think. I'm guessing a large chunk of people who use that power are people who've lost money in their business to it to scammers and scammers (which is not to say the chargeback is always a scam - there are scammers who charge credit cards, too)
Spooky23 10y ago
I'd never do business with eBay, ever. You can surf around there and spot obvious scams in 5 minutes that have been run for a decade. I consider them a co-conspirator. The best bet for selling was Amazon, but now is Facebook groups.
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
Contact your state banking regulator and report eBay and PayPal. New York State's Department of Financial Services is particularly strong and responsive [1]. [1] http://www.dfs.ny.gov http://www.dfs.ny.gov
walrus01 10y ago
I would never buy or sell consumer stuff like an iphone on eBay. On the other hand, I buy used/refurb network equipment all the time, from sellers that have like 8000+ positive feedback and 99.8% positive feedback ratings. Very rarely a problem, and no higher rate of problems/DOA items than with any other refurb equipment dealers. There are some amazing deals out there for things that are fresh off 3-year corporate leases, or have been decommissioned from telecom/ISP sites somewhere for whatever reason. Want a 48-port 802.3af PoE 1000BaseT switch for really cheap, with proper cisco IOS, to put in the wiring closet of your house? It's a good place to look. For consumer goods, not so much. also: I confine my purchasing on ebay to and from US domestic vendors with verified accounts, and I never sell to consumer end users...
manacit 10y ago
As someone who casually sells their old computers/phones on the internet, eBay is completely useless for something like this. It's frustrating that they advertise it on TV as a place to sell old equipment, actually trying is futile. Their fee structure is pretty bad (10% of the the sale price?!) compared to just selling it locally on Craigslist if you are in a big metro. The eBay UI to figure all of this out is even less so, and I had to resort to Google to figure basic information. Less than 24 hours after listing an iPhone 6s for sale, it was 'bought' by someone who was an obvious scammer. They reached out and asked for my direct PayPal email, citing that eBay was broken. Of course, I told them to pay through eBay or I wouldn't ship the phone. Immediately after this, I reached out to customer support and reported the account. This did absolutely nothing - the sale was locked up for a week "pending payment" until the buyer 'reported their account stolen' and the sale was reversed. Nobody responded to my ticket, absolutely nothing happened. I ended up selling it in that time frame locally in less time than it took to deal with all of the eBay BS, and I was able to get something like $50 more.
pmorici 10y ago
Your problem was checking the box that said you would ship world wide. You can eliminate 99% of fraudulent ebay buyers by only shipping within the US or your local region. also keep and eye out for package forwarding addresses those can be problematic as well but not as bad as a straight foreign shipping address.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  It was shipped to Delaware.
- morganvachon 10y ago
  It's buried at the end of the article, but the buyer shipped the phone to a Delaware address. The scammer was using that address to buy the phone, and then returned the scam phone from outside the US.
  - pmorici 10y ago
    Remailer addresses are pretty easy to spot and then cancel the sale. If it looks suspicious googling the address will tell you if it is associated with a package forwarding service.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
morganvachon 10y ago
I learned a while back to never, ever sell a phone or tablet on eBay. I only use Swappa for this service now, and I've bought and sold several devices on there with zero issues. Anecdotal, I know, but they give equal protection to buyers and sellers, and their employees are actively involved in each sale.
ensignavenger 10y ago
I only sell on ebay rarely, but I buy stuff all the time, big, small, expensive, foreign and domestic, from big sellers (lots of feedback) and new ones. I have never had any problems, some times I am disappointed by the cheap junk I buy from China, but generally I am quite satisfied. I have had to request a refund once or twice because something was not as described, but I don't think I have ever had to escalate to ebay or PayPal on anything. All this being said, anecdotes aren't data, and I worry every time I read an article like this that I am going to get burned bad one day.
- massysett 10y ago
  That's the whole point. Ebay bends over for buyers but doesn't care if sellers get scammed. Since they haven't run out of sellers, it works.
- ridgeguy 10y ago
  I've also had mostly good experiences on eBay as a buyer, but a couple of very bad ones as a seller. eBay's seller protections are non-existent, and I no longer use eBay for equipment sales. I do local sales (CraigsList or personal connections) or donate it to an appropriate 501(c)(3) for the write off.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  As a buyer, eBay is great. Where else can you buy a $0.25 component from china, put it on a credit card, AND get free shipping? I've only had one bad buyer experience on eBay and it was not their fault--someone inside the USPS opened my package, replaced the expensive item with a heavy book, and forwarded it along. The seller (who I continue to do business with) was very accommodating and made good even though he didn't have to. On the other hand I would never sell on eBay due to all the scammers. Props to these brave souls who continue to sell there.
  - oomkiller 10y ago
    AliExpress works great for this, the shipping can be a bit slow sometimes though. I like to buy random fun looking things on there and try to guess what I ordered when it finally arrives. Things are so cheap.
StanislavPetrov 10y ago
Its sad to see how far Ebay has regressed. I was a seller of lots of random (and sometimes very expensive) things (mostly collectibles) on Ebay for many years. I had 100% feedback, often going out of my way (and taking a small loss) to deal with crazy and/or difficult people in order to keep my perfect feedback status. I would pinpoint the time Ebay went off the rails to many years ago, when they changed their feedback system. The whole beauty of Ebay was that it was based on reputation. If I was selling something for thousands of dollars, I would only allow buyers that had plenty of good feedback. This simple system allowed you to avoid 99% of scammers. The only scammers that got through were people who spent a long time acting legit and building up lots of positive feedback, then "going rogue" and using that built-up goodwill to pull off a scam. This risk was small and worth taking (happened to me twice after hundreds of sales). At some point, though, Ebay changed their feedback system so that sellers could not leave buyers negative feedback! You could only leave positive feedback, or refuse to leave feedback at all. Overnight, the entire reputation-based system of buyer/seller reputation was destroyed. Within three months of the change I was hit by three scammers, after selling less then ten total items. This was more scammers than I had to deal with in a decade of prior Ebay sales. There was simply no way for me to figure out which buyers were legit, and no way to warn other sellers which buyers were scammers. As evidenced in the article above, Ebay has absolutely no interest in blocking these scammers. Contacting Ebay inevitably results in a canned response that has nothing to do with your issue. Shortly after they changed their feedback system I stopped selling on Ebay all together. It just isn't worth dealing with the scammers, and Ebay seems to think that their current business model is fine.
- sqldba 10y ago
  So what do you use instead?
  - giarc 10y ago
    Is there anything else? Etsy maybe... but it's more for hand crafted stuff, so you won't get the same buyers. Craigslist, but that's more of a local, in person marketplace. I can't think of one eBay replacement.
jaimex2 10y ago
Yeah, eBay is not a place to casually sell anymore. The 10% fee was bad enough but now you have to place a bond account even if your account has a long reputation of happy customers. Facebook marketplace is the way to go. You get way more exposure and can usually sell something in minutes.
hackuser 10y ago
> eBay is an enormous company with over $8 billion in revenue a year, so naturally it's difficult to talk to anyone there who is not a computer It's not naturally difficult, it's just a decision by eBay. With that kind of money they could pay and train people to provide service to you. Larger companies than eBay operate tech support services, and my guess is that tech support is higher-skilled than the customer service eBay needs.
cbdfghh 10y ago
Would it be possible to take ebay to a small claims court?
- duaneb 10y ago
  Yup. Realistically that's your best chance. Dunno about outside the US though.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Don't think so, Ebay has an arbitration clause in their user agreement. http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html
    - duaneb 10y ago
      That's very expensive compared to small claims court. I doubt they'd use that clause.
simonhamp 10y ago
I'm finding it hard to understand what's so difficult about eBay 'doing the right thing' here... surely it can't be that hard to take seller evidence into account and cross-reference that with buyer proof that they returned the correct item in the condition they received it...
FrankenPC 10y ago
This happened to me as well and the thief/buyer decided it would be funny to leave negative feedback as well. I'm not selling on Ebay ever again. The system is st
dstaten 10y ago
I will never use eBay again. It took over a month to get a refund for a product that was never shipped. In fact the transaction was somehow canceled by the seller within minutes of it being completed, but it still took a ton of work on my end to get the refund. What a shame
annerajb 10y ago
I had something like this happen. The buyer from hungary filed a item not received claim and they took my money from my paypal account (it has been negative ever since). 5 months later out of curiosity I sent a message to the buyer and he replied that he did received. But since the case was closed in Ebay there is no way for me to forward the email I received from him to get my account back up in good standing... I was sent to collections and filed a debt verification letter which they didnt reply correctly and havent responded to it and two years later still does not show on my credit report. If it ever does I will just file the debt verification letter again and ask for small claims court.
- kagamine 10y ago
  Sounds like your Hungarian buyer was legit but it just took along time to arrive. I've had that happen a number of times and every time it is because the customs/toll people open my parcel to "check it". It frustrates me no en d when I have to contact a seller a week past estimated delivery date, who then supplies a tracking number or a promise, and then the item turns up 10 days later with a govt. sticker on it and a hole in the packaging. I swear they think I'm a drug dealer and not the owner of a 30+ year old 4x4 (a lot of small packets!).
conductr 10y ago
Wonder what would happen if author filed a small claim in his local jurisdiction? (Against eBay) I tend to think eBay would not even respond and lose by default
rick_perez 10y ago
"I don’t accept payment by check or Western Union and I don’t accept returns." If you sell me a broken phone, it gets broken in the mail because you didn't package it correctly, or any other thing that can happen between the time you send it out and when I receive it, you should refund my money or accept my return. I buy hundreds of thousands of products per month for my business on Ebay and Amazon and many people outright lie about the products they are trying to sell me. A good return policy is a must. My theory is that it's one of the only reasons Amazon and Ebay became the kings of the online marketplace. I've tried to purchase from the other sites and because there are barely any protections in place for buyers, I always go back.
- vostrocity 10y ago
  This is what I was thinking. I don't see ill will on eBay's part. What I see is a few badly-designed processes: not soliciting proof when there is a buyer/seller dispute and not integrating a "Money Back Guarantee" charge into eBay's account balance. These seem like matters of incompetence. Also, in my experience, when I refused to pay eBay for some charges I disagreed with, they simply sent the debt to a collections agency.
  - jbmorgado 10y ago
    > "Also, in my experience, when I refused to pay eBay for some charges I disagreed with, they simply sent the debt to a collections agency." Well, eBay does this because they know that legally they don't have a leg to stand on in some cases, so they resource to harass their client into complying and give them money they are not legally entitled to.
catalystframe 10y ago
Yeah had same kind of issue. Dispute management people told me "If I was running a business, I'd accept every customer I can." My response "even if they're using you as a free rental service?" Author is 100% right, they totally side with the buyer and they're essentially churning through sellers to make money. Even if they ever clean up, fuck em
thisrod 10y ago
So in Australia we have things called small claims courts, which are designed to make it practical for an individual citizen to sue a billion dollar company for a few hundred dollars. And I think that Australian consumer law would take a very dim view of website terms and conditions that claimed to prevent it. There's a tradition of "Yes, your thousand-dollar contract is enforcable, but any attempt to enforce it would be an offence under the Trade Practices Act, and we could fine you a million dollars if you tried."
jliptzin 10y ago
Pretty much the same exact thing happened to me about 6 years ago. Nice to know ebay's policy still hasn't changed. I'm still banned from paypal because I refused to pay them back the money they refunded to the scammer. I used to use ebay pretty frequently but since that incident I've only been back there a couple of times to buy things (with a friend's paypal account) that I really couldn't find anywhere else.
rdlecler1 10y ago
I stopped using eBay in 2003 when I had aweful service with PayPal. It's sad. eBay could have been Amazon. It had so much going for it--too good to fail--unfortunately poor leadership wronged the ship.
fapjacks 10y ago
Yeah absolutely fuck Ebay. It was broken years ago.
Scottn1 10y ago
I have been a ebay user since 1999. Have accumulated 200 feedbacks and currently at 100% positive. But I have entertained closing my account a few times in past two years and have started to cut back drastically on ebay as both a buyer and especially a seller. First, as others have mentioned, they have a monopolistic marketplace where they require one to use their own Paypal for transactions. The combined fee's for selling on ebay + Paypal now are 10% of the final sold amount + the shipping amount. Where margins are slim as it is and things are already selling well below their value at times because of so many other competing auctions, the fee's make it not worth it in many cases. They are making a boatload in fees and I'm tired of it. I just sold $400 golf clubs and had to give them $42? Ebay provides value as the market is so large. I had those clubs on Craigslist for TWO months and not even a inquiry at that price. Ebay got sold in 7 day auction. But to pay 10% for everything is too greedy imo. They have NO competition. Second, ebay has become a haven for scammers and overrun with them to point I am leery of purchasing anything like electronics, phones, etc on there. Software..forget it! DO NOT buy any licensed software from ebay no matter how good buyer feedback. Even if it claims new/sealed. The pirates have gotten too good. I'd venture to say 99% of software on there now is either a)counterfeit from get go or b)legit but "used" and/or illegal Volume Licenses. The problem is key will work when you get it but fail 5 months from now or when you need to reinstall. I've been victim of this two times now and NO more will I buy software off ebay. When it does fail, it is long enough you have zero recourse. Ebay you can't even file a claim as they give you only like 14 days after purchase. A pirate knows this and gets keys from a keygen. I had 8 legit looking MS Office licenses in sealed retail boxes register then 4 months later started to fail. Called Microsoft and they told me I had registered them too many times and they are now flagged. Huh? I only installed them ONCE. Credit card company didn't even help as it was past the time limit for a case. So basically the seller sold many of the same key and whoever bought from him, who knows how many of us, they are all worthless. Really upsets me that ebay allows ANY software even on there. They clearly know that this must be going on. I tried to inform them of the practice but couldn't even find a contact to let know. They don't care as they are making their fees! Tons of them from software. Their only concern is a small webpage to help identify counterfeit. From now on, I will only buy hard items that can't be counterfeited or scammed easily, like golf clubs. Third, as this story is about, ebay is WAY to buyer-centric and I too was once bitten by similar story as topic starter. Not as blatantly bad as the OP or that amount of money, but bad enough I was pissed. Eventually also got someone from ebay on the phone and as similar was brushed off and there was no pleading my case. End of story, refund the money. It cost me out of my own pocket by time it was returned and settled.
No1 10y ago
It's not just the buyers who are scammers - the amount of counterfeit and significantly-not-as-described stuff being sold is astounding. Ebay is large enough to do their own sample purchases, but clearly they just don't care. I stopped using Ebay after they sent me a message saying that I had contested too many transactions (all due to counterfeit goods) and could not contest again for some period of time. I'm interested in what will happen when Ebay becomes a site for scammers sellers to transact with scammer buyers.
qq66 10y ago
I've had good experiences with hard-to-find items on eBay by following two simple rules: 1) I will only buy an expensive item from a seller with thousands of reviews and a 99.8% rating or higher, and 2) I will only sell an expensive item to a buyer with an account older than three years, more than 100 transactions, a 100% rating, and other expensive and related items in their history. I don't typically get the best prices, of course, but I've never been scammed.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Buyers don't leave feedback most of the time. You're basically looking at only buying from very high volume professional sellers. I that's ok if that's what you're looking for but I like the low volume casual sellers myself, I think they put more care into it. The only time I've ever been scammed as a buyer was when I bought from a high volume professional seller. >other expensive and related items in their history Is there a way to view what someone has bought now? Last I knew they got rid of showing the buyer's item on their feedback page a few years ago. Is there another place to find this information?
teknologist 10y ago
I'm from the UK. Some years ago we bought a game console on eBay and instead received a photo (!) of one in the post. eBay were unwilling to act, so we went to the local police station and reported it. To our surprise they eventually found the seller and recovered the money.
- sveme 10y ago
  Same here in Germany. A friend bought a MacBook off ebay and wire-transferred some money to his bank account. He never shipped. So she contacted first his bank (which coincidentally was the same as hers) and then the local police. Both were very understanding and said that they could not do much officially, but sent a police car to his location to "interview" him while the bank also contacted him. He quickly sent all the money back. Doubt he'll try something like that again. The guy in the OP commited fraud, the iphone was sent to a US address - why is it so hard to get in contact with local police, even if just an additional step?
  - codedokode 10y ago
    The buyer was from Eastern Europe and american address was a mail forwarder. By the way mail forwarders usually make photos of items sent through them so eBay could concact them and ask for photo (and see that the item was sent properly) if only it was interested to find out the truth.
slezyr 10y ago
Try to report it to Kharkiv's police. https://police.kh.ua/?lang=en https://police.kh.ua/?lang=en
- Noseshine 10y ago
  Why do you mention a random country's police? For the record, the buyer... with a shipping address... New Castle, DE 19726-2079, United States. Both buyer and seller are located in the US.
  - lobe 10y ago
    The return package has a label indicating it was sent from that town which is in the Ukraine
  - codedokode 10y ago
    The address in Delaware is a mail forwarder and they have the real address of a buyer.
- slezyr 10y ago
  My bad. This package been send from USA -> Ukraine, Kharkiv. When I saw article and addresses automatically assumed that someone from Ukraine stole it.
- lisivka 10y ago
  Don't. Police may ruin his life. IMHO, phone is stolen at customs.
  - lisivka 10y ago
    Anonymous downvoters, please, take this seriously. Ukrainian police will be happy to open case against him, then report that they uncovered international fraud. They are obligated to open case and they are obligated to keep rate of uncovered crimes high, especially for international crimes. In reality, „scammer“ just lost about $200 (shipping + VAT + money conversion rate). I checked his name and address: he is son of a private entrepreneur. His parent will have lot of problems if somebody will try to report that item, which is stolen at customs, as fraud.
setq 10y ago
Had this problem before. If you send something expensive, film yourself putting it in the box, write the serial numbers down, send it recorded or signed for delivery always, withdraw EVERYTHING from your paypal account instantly into your bank account. A friend of mine however ended up with a debt collection agency (Transcom) after him for 6 months because he refused to refund the item. Eventually after much letter writing with "fuck off" in it basically, they gave up because there wasn't a genuine claim that would stand up in court. I still buy and sell off ebay but it's usually very niche items which are on 1:1 interest and low value (vintage transistors for example). Anything popular, I get the other half to stick it on Facebook and it's gone, in cash usually within 72 hours. No fees, nothing.
timmaxw 10y ago
Behind the specific problem of eBay prioritizing buyers over sellers, there's a more general problem of how marketplaces can determine who's right in a dispute. Other commenters have suggested taking a video while packing up the item and unpacking the return. However, that could be vulnerable to fraud as well; how can you prove that the package you film yourself opening is the package the other party actually sent? Perhaps UPS/Fedex could act as a verification service. For a small fee, the UPS store employees could photograph the contents of the package before it gets mailed, check if the electronics turn on, write down the serial numbers, etc. and send a report to eBay.
codedokode 10y ago
As I understand his mistake was to sell an item to Eastern Europe. He should have sold it to US so in case if something goes wrong he could use the police. Mail forwarders usually take photos of items sent through them (so their customers could see what they would receive). Ebay could contact the forwarder if they wanted to find out the truth.
ns8sl 10y ago
I tried to sell Bitcoin on eBay and every single buyer attempted to commit fraud.
phjesusthatguy3 10y ago
I just have to say I'm grateful this hasn't happened to me. I just started using ebay again after a ~8 year break to sell off some LPs, and gotten through about $1000 of sales without a problem.
ionised 10y ago
In my personal opinion, EBay and PayPal have both become seriously shady and among my own awful experiences with the two companies I have family members that have experienced varying levels of bullshit treatment, not limited to PayPal hounding them for years for money they clearly did not owe and EBay blacklisting them for this reason. Then there are the horror stories like this all over the internet that just cemented my decision to never use or recommend either service ever again.
amai 10y ago
Why does eBay allow buyers to use remailer addresses? It should be very easy for them to check that and not allow any buyers using these remailer addresses.
prirun 10y ago
First, sorry that you got screwed on your phone. That sucks. I recently sold 50 4TB hard drives on eBay. I had 2 returns for broken drives that were damaged in shipping (my fault - the first 2 drives I sent weren't packed well enough), and one other drive returned that the buyer said was broken. I tested the 3rd drive and found it worked perfectly, so reported the buyer for abuse of the return process (I did allow returns, but only for defective drives). To its credit, eBay refunded to me the shipping charges both ways that I had paid. The buyer was pissed off and still insisted that the drive was defective (and he was a Microsoft Certified something or other, blah, blah), but strangely enough, it had 60 more hours on it when I received it back. Hmm... I guess I was lucky I didn't get back a 40GB drive. I recertified the drive, resold it, and had no complaints. My point is, yes, you can get screwed on eBay. But I live in a podunk town of 35K in Indiana and there's no way I could have sold 50 4TB hard drives as easily as I did on eBay. Guess I could have tried Craigslist, but I didn't want to meet 50 strangers at a McDonald's, and I doubt people would even want to buy them without seeing them actually work in a computer system. If this phone thing had happened to me, I probably would have filed a small claims against eBay, regardless of what their stupid user agreement says I can or cannot do. You'd be surprised how seriously a company takes your complaint if they get a legal document.
silverdrake11 10y ago
UPDATE: It looks like eBay refunded him because of the reaction here on HN http://matthewsag.com/?p=1649 http://matthewsag.com/?p=1649

489 points by silverdrake11 10y ago

I used to work at eBay Trust and Safety. The place is a nightmare and will not improve. The culture was destroyed by Meg Whitman and never recovered. This kind of fraud sticks out like a sore thumb in click stream. I had no trouble finding fraud and building algorithms to automatically detect it but I did find it impossible finding someone at eBay who cared enough to do anything about it. eBay still gets paid so no one wants to be in charge of a revenue hit. I doubt that's changed. Mark Carges tried to turn it around in 2008 and failed. I have high hopes Facebook can move into this space.

icefox 10y ago
But how would Facebook prevent the same fraud?
- shard972 10y ago
  Probably in a similar way they tackled fake news, with all the finesse of a bull in a china shop.
  - zeahfj 10y ago
    The fake news was done badly on purpose so people would beg them for manual curation ;)
    - zeahfj 10y ago
      Interestingly this comment was voted up a bunch and then voted down a bunch. 'fake news' can be easily detected, not by the content but by those who share it. I've built similar stuff before but obviously can't talk about specifics without outing myself.
  - amenghra 10y ago
    http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/bull-in-a-china-shop/ http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/bull-in...
- zeahfj 10y ago
  By emphasising local and by using the other details that they know about people to filter out fraudsters. Plus the long tail is filled with interest groups. Facebook already manages many of these groups and getting kicked out of such communities can be very costly.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Right now much Facebook commerce is local. Sit in front of a target or supermarket on a Saturday afternoon and you'll see a half dozen Facebook mom transactions.
- stirlo 10y ago
  My little sister tried to buy an iPhone on Facebook a year ago only to have the seller (a 15yo kid living in a village 6 hours drive away) try to scam her. Unluckily for this scammer she had used a real name and had a reasonable amount of public information on her profile. 6 hours drive away probably seems a world away to a 15yo but unfortunately for her my parents had relatives living only 20 mins away and they knew many people in her village. They simply went down to the local supermarket where they determined her mother worked and told her what happened (they also knew the kids address/school and social clubs but decided the mother was better to approach). Suffice to say the money was returned in full with an apology and a 15yo scammer hopefully learnt a valuable lesson. Nothing like this could ever happen on eBay and it was able to happen without access to the private information that Facebook would have if they implemented a reputation system.
- manacit 10y ago
  Anecdata: I am the administrator of a ~12k person "Free & For Sale" FB group for the college that I graduated from. It's very high traffic, people are able to buy and sell a whole host of things very easily. I think Facebook has the potential to combine eBay and Craigslist as a platform to sell more "common" items. They won't be able to get your broken laser pointer to a broken laser pointer collector, but if you want to get rid of a bed/desk/cell phone/microwave, it's much easier to sell it to someone that lives 10 minutes away than to ship it across the country, and the risk of fraud is much lower. I know they have plans to scale this out and improve the experience of buying and selling things (I've been messaged by a few FB staff asking for feedback as they've added new features), but it definitely does not have the critical mass that CL has, and discovery (getting into the right group) is much harder.
mahyarm 10y ago
How about amazon? Are you still prone to the brick scam there?
- rangibaby 10y ago
  Fufilled by Amazon is much safer and more reliable. I wouldn't spend money I would miss on an item from 3rd party sellers who handle their own shipping on Amazon.
  - cookiecaper 10y ago
    FBA takes a huge chunk out of the sale's proceeds. It easily converts what would otherwise be high-margin items into losers. That's not really a scenario that your average person trying to sell a used phone would expect. The seller is also responsible for collecting (done by Amazon) and remitting sales tax (NOT done by Amazon, afaik) on FBA transactions. The best option is to go local as a parent commenter already said. Ask the person to unbox and demo the item before you pay. If the product doesn't clearly work, leave without paying. Yard sale groups on Facebook, Craigslist, and an active region-specific classifieds site if there's one in your area are good places to make such arrangements. Don't meet at either party's home. The police station parking lot is best. Some police stations even have parking spots reserved for people who are performing transactions arranged online.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Safer for who? We are talking about scam buyers here not scam sellers. Amazon handled my claim when I was scammed by a third party Amazon seller.
- noonespecial 10y ago
  I have won on amazon as a seller by videoing the boxing of the original (playstation3) and unboxing the "return" (a broken VHS recorder). Its simple just to pull out your phone and grab a few seconds of sealing the box and putting on the label. Keep it for a few weeks until the transaction "settles" then delete.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
yuhong 10y ago
>Mark Carges tried to turn it around in 2008 and failed. I wonder why?
- zeahfj 10y ago
  Typical corporate politics.
  - yuhong 10y ago
    I wonder if it is a case of people wanting to leave the company.
adekok 10y ago
> eBay still gets paid so no one wants to be in charge of a revenue hit. I doubt that's changed. That sounds like a class action suit waiting to happen. Or, a RICO lawsuit, where the government can pretty much prove that eBay is in cahoots with hordes of scammers.
- jcranmer 10y ago
  https://popehat.com/2016/06/14/lawsplainer-its-not-rico-dammit/ https://popehat.com/2016/06/14/lawsplainer-its-not-rico-damm...
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    Would you mind providing a summary of your position based on the link you provided.
    - jjoonathan 10y ago
      Seconded. @jcranmer, lawsplainer links to a "RICO case statement" which reads a bit like a checklist. While the checklist makes it obvious why lawsplainer's examples aren't RICO, to my untrained eye the checklist seems to match the proposed claims against ebay fairly well. Could you cite the specific items for which you think the case is weakest? https://popehat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Rico-Order.pdf https://popehat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Rico-Order.pd...
      - icebraining 10y ago
        For one thing, you couldn't sue Ebay itself. From the link above: "Wait. Isn't the defendant the enterprise? No. In fact the defendant can't be the same as the enterprise. An enterprise is a legal entity or group of people. So, for instance, the Gambino Crime Family can be an enterprise, or Prenda Law. But the enterprise has to be different than the defendant for a RICO claim. Instead, the defendants have to be people and entities who run the enterprise."
- nkw 10y ago
uncletammy 10y ago
Facebook can easily do better will ultimately fail for the same reasons. As long as the marketplace has incentive to alter the perception of buyer/seller reputation, it's doomed to become another ebay. If you have high hopes for anything, it should be for https://openbazaar.org https://openbazaar.org They attempt to solve the problem with "moderated payments" where the buyer pays into an escrow account which is jointly controlled by the buyer, the vendor, and a third party called a moderator. In order for the funds to leave the escrow, any two of these parties need to agree how to release the funds.
- rjbwork 10y ago
  This is actually how some Bitcoin transactions take place, on the white, grey, and black markets. People build a reputation for honesty as an escrow, take a small fee, and facilitate transactions. They arbitrate disputes, and decide who to release the funds back to.
  - fapjacks 10y ago
    How hilarious, ironic, and fitting that dark markets operate more on a working platform of trust than friggin Ebay.
    - hellweaver666 10y ago
      Isn't escrow basically the opposite of trust? If you trust someone you don't need a middle man to make sure everything goes well.
      - soylentcola 10y ago
        I guess it's more the acceptance that buyer/seller is an adversarial relationship so you need to at least be able to trust the system or framework to be impartial and enforce honesty.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        > Isn't escrow basically the opposite of trust? No, escrow is trust-as-a-service. That is, it's a means of removing the need for trust between the transaction principals by hiring a mutually-trusted third party.
bhartzer 10y ago
Interesting that you mention Facebook. Only decent experiences I've had lately has been posting something in closed "for sale" groups on Facebook and buying/selling something in person in my local area.
Gustomaximus 10y ago
> The culture was destroyed by Meg Whitman and never recovered. She joined with 30 employees and was CEO until 15,000 employees. I fail to see how she could have destroyed the culture or do you excpect a 30 person company culture to remain static? Am I mising somehting? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Whitman#eBay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Whitman#eBay
- zeahfj 10y ago
  Meg was before my time. I got to see the aftermath and I heard many of the stories. eBay's success was in spite of Meg Whitman. It was a money printing machine. The first employee was hired to be the full time check casher. In the early days managers and engineers got along - then management gave themselves a ton of options and cut out the engineers. She then hired in a bunch of professional management (Harvard people) and outsourced the engineers to India. That was a disaster so they insourced the Indians to the US. This continued to be a disaster. The Indians are very tribal so not only is there office politics there is also tribal politics. Certain casts will refuse to work with each other. So yeah, pretty toxic.
  - IOT_Apprentice 10y ago
    I was there during and after Whitman. When Ebay was power diving into the ground. The story above about Ebay engineering is right on the money. So much politics, and jockeying to get to Sr Director or VP to get more stock grants. Ebay brought in a lot of ex Anderson consulting and outsourcing like there was no tomorrow. Trained Cognizant on the ecommerce business on their own dime, by paying outrageous fees for people with zero background in ecommerce or internet scale or data center ops. When times got tough they fired most contractors and insourced as described above. Very Game of thrones there. Toxic.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - yuhong 10y ago
    I wonder if there are CEOs who would be comfortable doing as little as possible all day long for years.
quadrangle 10y ago
Holy shit. The idea that I might actually feel good about "Facebook moving into this space" is insane! Shows how horrible eBay is. Gah.
eofear 10y ago
Nextdoor also doing this.. local based reduces scope for fraud..

ignorantguy 10y ago

I wouldn't recommend ebay to anyone at all. This article probably will help potential scammers to actually cheat more people.

dawnerd 10y ago
I'd only use it for low-value items and make sure you're shipping to a real address.
waterphone 10y ago
I buy and sell on it regularly and have done so for many years, with no issues ever. Fraud seems to be primarily focused in certain areas, and niche items—old tools, auto and small engine parts, used outdoor equipment, etc.—doesn't get impacted by those issues.
- eric_h 10y ago
  Just wait until AI/ML gets good enough/easy enough to use that these scammers can go full auto. You'll send them a lawnmower and they'll dispute and send you back a pair of nail clippers.
g00gler 10y ago
I sell phones and other electronics on a semi regular basis. Usually the only problem I have is people who send obviously fake PayPal emails and request the phone be shipped overseas. No longer accepting addresses outside of the US helped reduce the spam.

mperham 10y ago

If you google the buyer's address, it's home to a package forwarding service. Do not ever do business with a buyer using such a service. 100% guarantee it's a scam. https://www.google.com/maps/place/78+McCullough+Dr,+New+Castle,+DE+19720/@39.6922734,-75.5688828,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c702fc680bcabd:0x4bf837ee53036895!8m2!3d39.6922734!4d-75.5666941 https://www.google.com/maps/place/78+McCullough+Dr,+New+Cast...

adamredwoods 10y ago
Isn't there a way that Ebay can automatically detect a mail forwarding service and flag addresses?
- hydrogen18 10y ago
  They could, but there is no incentive to do so.
  - eric_h 10y ago
    In fact there's a disincentive. eBay made their commission on this sale, changing their policies would likely mess with both the top and bottom lines of their business.
    - duaneb 10y ago
      Trust has value, too. Just imagine how much money they'd make if they weren't known for being a terrible place to sell OR buy.
      - eric_h 10y ago
        I agree. What percentage of the eBay-using population has reduced their trust in eBay as a result of this and many other articles on HN, though? The brand awareness of eBay has given them a great deal of trust runway that, IMO, they can burn through before it starts to actually affect the short term numbers that dominate the things that anyone actually acts on with large, publically traded companies.

noonespecial 10y ago

For what its worth, thats the "brick scam". As in "you can't sell apple stuff on ebay anymore because of the brick scam". Usually, they send you a return package with a rock or brick inside approximating the weight of the original package. Its famous enough at this point that its impossible that ebay is unaware. They are fully aware and are choosing to continue to profit off of this. So much so that the "shell game" the author faced is likely scripted by this point. Ebay consumes sellers as a raw material as part of the process. That's their business model.

tananaev 10y ago
Just want to point out that it's not always a planned scam on buyer's side. Actual item might be stolen/replaced on customs, post office, some package sorting facility or even by your neighbors. For a buyer eBay is a great place because everything is protected and you can always get a refund. For a seller, I guess you either have to accept the risk, or get some kind of insurance. Overall, I think auction places always attract scams, so there always be some risks involved.
- MarkMc 10y ago
  > For a seller, I guess you either have to accept the risk, or get some kind of insurance. Or eBay pays the insurance cost out of the fees they charge.
  - seanp2k2 10y ago
    It's hard to prove anything without some type of escrow service. It'd be cool if eBay offered such a service for an additional fee.
    - 1_2__3 10y ago
      ...are you joking or serious?
      - 10y ago

jrs235 10y ago

This is why I'm starting to consider taking video of me packing and placing goods in the shipping box (while at the shipping company), placing the shipping label on the package, and dropping them off directly with UPS/USPS/FEDEX (all in a non clipped video). Then also recording the opening of any packages received in returns. Problem is this probably still wouldn't be enough evidence and sufficient for eBay.

dwyer 10y ago
The problem that the author describes is that eBay does not accept proof and offers no way to submit it.
- awqrre 10y ago
  You could always include a URL in your claim, to youtube or something else...
  - pmlnr 10y ago
    Upload the video right after post to a service, maybe as private. Since normal mortals don't have the power to backdate upload times, this might work as proof.
theli0nheart 10y ago
I take a video while boxing and make sure to capture the label. Like you said though, I doubt this would be enough to win an appeal.
sigmar 10y ago
He said he used UPS Pack and Ship. Which should be even better proof than the video you described, since it is a third party vouching for what was put into the box.
DrScump 10y ago
Having all the video, witnesses, and documentation in the world can't help you when eBay refuses to review any of it.

rickyc091 10y ago

Ugh, sorry you had to go through this. I was in a similar case not too long ago. Basically the same start... the item arrived and a claim was filed stating that the phone wasn't working. I offered to help since it was perfectly fine before I shipped it, but I was ignored. I waited until the last date before accepting the return. As Matt mentioned, eBay basically forces you to accept the return or you lose the item. The buyer never shipped it back so it finally timed out after another 30 days and I was able to file a claim and get my money back. Good to know I can unlink from PayPal since they pulled the funds directly from my account. I was in a negative balance. Here's the kicker. If you decide to checkout on any site using PayPal, they'll actually authorize the full balance behind the scenes. I was definitely surprised when I saw a $400 charge for a $11 item I paid for. eBay sucks for sellers, but you typically still get the best value aside from dealing with criagslist.

imgabe 10y ago

It sounds like they still have their money and eBay is "demanding payment". Is there any reason to give into this demand? Obviously the Ukrainian scammer is not going to sue. It seems unlikely that eBay is going to sue over $465. So, keep the money and don't use eBay anymore (which it seems like was the case anyway).

Sgt_Apone 10y ago
I imagine it could work its way to collections eventually, but I'm not sure.
- eric_h 10y ago
  Once the debt has been sold and resold a few times, I doubt collections companies have much incentive to actually sue for this amount of money, let alone an ability to actually win the case.
  - asp_hornet 10y ago
    They don't need to sue, they can just list your debt with credit listing company and put a mark on your credit history. That can be annoying enough to settle a debt.
    - eric_h 10y ago
      From personal experience neglecting debts I believed to be unjust, I've not gotten any dings on my credit rating inspired by collections companies who acquired the debt for the cable box that I never returned, after paying 3x its value in rental fees. This didn't stop them from calling me and threatening my credit rating, but it seems their threats had no teeth. /anecdata
jbmorgado 10y ago
The Ukrainian scammer already got the money, the buyer is refunded automatically after the claim process ends, now eBay will try to force the money out of the seller.

em3rgent0rdr 10y ago

eBay is centralized moderation. Maybe a distributed p2p market-based moderation with reputation scores for moderators in addition to sellers, like openbazaar, is the solution: https://blog.openbazaar.org/how-moderators-and-dispute-resolution-work-in-openbazaar/ https://blog.openbazaar.org/how-moderators-and-dispute-resol...

edpichler 10y ago
The same happens in Mercadolivre, an Ebay Company in Latin America. They protect buyers, because where there are buyers always will have sellers. Dishonest people paradise, unfortunatelly.

djoldman 10y ago

Why not just pick "no returns accepted" when selling?

st3v3r 10y ago
It sounds like they did.
wnissen 10y ago
He did. You are still required to accept returns if buyer claims the item is not as described.

andrewclunn 10y ago

Okay... So how is this evidence that the world is small?

sooheon 10y ago
Maybe because scammers that live worlds away, who you'd never have had to deal with in physical life are "near" to you now?
- Mathnerd314 10y ago
  Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn-ym8y1_kw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn-ym8y1_kw The buyer is in the Ukraine, usually considered a faraway place.

ars 10y ago

What I do to protect myself is record a video of me packaging and shipping the item. I record the video at the post office itself, and of course include a shot of the post office. Start the video showing a closeup of the item, then record yourself packaging and sealing the box, and putting on the address label - then very important record an image of the address label, and finally walk it over to the drop box, put it in, and pan wide to record the building. Make SURE never to have the item go off frame or people will say you pulled a trick. The post office where I am is open 24/7 and deserted at night, so it's easy. When I shipped UPS the guy looked at me funny and warned me he didn't want to be in the video, but other than that I was able to record (and I included the tracking receipt I got from them in the video). It's a lot easier if you have a second person holding the camera, but it's also possible with a tripod, or even just holding it if you prepare all the tape stuck on one side of the flap so you can work one-handed. Do a test shot to make sure your video camera is good enough that you can actually read the address label - and even better the serial number on the product. Keep the video for a long time, several months. I've never actually had to use any of the videos I've made, but I keep making them anyway.

thenewwazoo 10y ago
You missed the part of the article where eBay's appeals process has no mechanism by which you can submit your carefully-filmed masterpiece. :)
- eric_h 10y ago
  They accept text though, right? URLs are text. Not that I'm convinced that this would actually work with a behemoth that still makes money in situations of this type of fraud.
- ars 10y ago
  The article says: “… but, unfortunately, we didn’t receive proof that the buyer caused the issue.” Sounds like there is a way to submit proof, and this video would be proof. But, it's very important to "test" the buyer - have them document what they claim they received. Then this video can refute that. Once they ship it to you it's too late - they'll claim they shipped an iPhone.

intrasight 10y ago

I've not used eBay in years as a seller - ever since they started withholding my funds pending approval/release by buyer. Now I just use Craig's List and Facebook and sell face-to-face. And as a bonus, I've met some pretty cool people.

neutered_knot 10y ago

This has been going on forever. Here is an example from 2007, almost identical to the one in the post. https://ask.metafilter.com/77638/Can-I-trust-PayPals-seller-protection-If-not-what-can-go-wrong#1208841 https://ask.metafilter.com/77638/Can-I-trust-PayPals-seller-...

Dowwie 10y ago

This is loosely related to the subject but I wanted to point out a scam that I was victim to and nearly lost more than a grand:. PayPal doesn't protect vacation rental by owner scams. The reason that this was a close call rather than complete catastrophe was that I had the listing reviewed by the service's internal investigation team while I transacted. The team altered me of fraud, I responded immediately with PayPal to learn that hey guess what - their fraud claims policy excludes vacation rental services! They refused to help me. Further, the scammer knew this policy limitation, and even left me a troll voicemail as I was escalating the scam that was along the lines of "guess what? PayPal won't refund you!" Fortunately, I used a credit card for payment. I managed to file a claim with the credit card company and reverse the fraudulent charge. The reason I escalated this listing as a concern was that it had zero reviews and was new. The owner was also a bit too accommodative of my requests. I proceeded with caution. I went to the authorities about this, including the secret service, who for whatever reason handles fraud like this. I never heard back from anyone.

eric_h 10y ago
> I managed to file a claim with the credit card company and reverse the fraudulent charge. The power of the chargeback is unappreciated by many, I think. I'm guessing a large chunk of people who use that power are people who've lost money in their business to it to scammers and scammers (which is not to say the chargeback is always a scam - there are scammers who charge credit cards, too)

Spooky23 10y ago

I'd never do business with eBay, ever. You can surf around there and spot obvious scams in 5 minutes that have been run for a decade. I consider them a co-conspirator. The best bet for selling was Amazon, but now is Facebook groups.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

Contact your state banking regulator and report eBay and PayPal. New York State's Department of Financial Services is particularly strong and responsive [1]. [1] http://www.dfs.ny.gov http://www.dfs.ny.gov

walrus01 10y ago

I would never buy or sell consumer stuff like an iphone on eBay. On the other hand, I buy used/refurb network equipment all the time, from sellers that have like 8000+ positive feedback and 99.8% positive feedback ratings. Very rarely a problem, and no higher rate of problems/DOA items than with any other refurb equipment dealers. There are some amazing deals out there for things that are fresh off 3-year corporate leases, or have been decommissioned from telecom/ISP sites somewhere for whatever reason. Want a 48-port 802.3af PoE 1000BaseT switch for really cheap, with proper cisco IOS, to put in the wiring closet of your house? It's a good place to look. For consumer goods, not so much. also: I confine my purchasing on ebay to and from US domestic vendors with verified accounts, and I never sell to consumer end users...

manacit 10y ago

As someone who casually sells their old computers/phones on the internet, eBay is completely useless for something like this. It's frustrating that they advertise it on TV as a place to sell old equipment, actually trying is futile. Their fee structure is pretty bad (10% of the the sale price?!) compared to just selling it locally on Craigslist if you are in a big metro. The eBay UI to figure all of this out is even less so, and I had to resort to Google to figure basic information. Less than 24 hours after listing an iPhone 6s for sale, it was 'bought' by someone who was an obvious scammer. They reached out and asked for my direct PayPal email, citing that eBay was broken. Of course, I told them to pay through eBay or I wouldn't ship the phone. Immediately after this, I reached out to customer support and reported the account. This did absolutely nothing - the sale was locked up for a week "pending payment" until the buyer 'reported their account stolen' and the sale was reversed. Nobody responded to my ticket, absolutely nothing happened. I ended up selling it in that time frame locally in less time than it took to deal with all of the eBay BS, and I was able to get something like $50 more.

pmorici 10y ago

Your problem was checking the box that said you would ship world wide. You can eliminate 99% of fraudulent ebay buyers by only shipping within the US or your local region. also keep and eye out for package forwarding addresses those can be problematic as well but not as bad as a straight foreign shipping address.

maxerickson 10y ago
It was shipped to Delaware.
morganvachon 10y ago
It's buried at the end of the article, but the buyer shipped the phone to a Delaware address. The scammer was using that address to buy the phone, and then returned the scam phone from outside the US.
- pmorici 10y ago
  Remailer addresses are pretty easy to spot and then cancel the sale. If it looks suspicious googling the address will tell you if it is associated with a package forwarding service.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

morganvachon 10y ago

I learned a while back to never, ever sell a phone or tablet on eBay. I only use Swappa for this service now, and I've bought and sold several devices on there with zero issues. Anecdotal, I know, but they give equal protection to buyers and sellers, and their employees are actively involved in each sale.

ensignavenger 10y ago

I only sell on ebay rarely, but I buy stuff all the time, big, small, expensive, foreign and domestic, from big sellers (lots of feedback) and new ones. I have never had any problems, some times I am disappointed by the cheap junk I buy from China, but generally I am quite satisfied. I have had to request a refund once or twice because something was not as described, but I don't think I have ever had to escalate to ebay or PayPal on anything. All this being said, anecdotes aren't data, and I worry every time I read an article like this that I am going to get burned bad one day.

massysett 10y ago
That's the whole point. Ebay bends over for buyers but doesn't care if sellers get scammed. Since they haven't run out of sellers, it works.
ridgeguy 10y ago
I've also had mostly good experiences on eBay as a buyer, but a couple of very bad ones as a seller. eBay's seller protections are non-existent, and I no longer use eBay for equipment sales. I do local sales (CraigsList or personal connections) or donate it to an appropriate 501(c)(3) for the write off.
ryandrake 10y ago
As a buyer, eBay is great. Where else can you buy a $0.25 component from china, put it on a credit card, AND get free shipping? I've only had one bad buyer experience on eBay and it was not their fault--someone inside the USPS opened my package, replaced the expensive item with a heavy book, and forwarded it along. The seller (who I continue to do business with) was very accommodating and made good even though he didn't have to. On the other hand I would never sell on eBay due to all the scammers. Props to these brave souls who continue to sell there.
- oomkiller 10y ago
  AliExpress works great for this, the shipping can be a bit slow sometimes though. I like to buy random fun looking things on there and try to guess what I ordered when it finally arrives. Things are so cheap.

StanislavPetrov 10y ago

Its sad to see how far Ebay has regressed. I was a seller of lots of random (and sometimes very expensive) things (mostly collectibles) on Ebay for many years. I had 100% feedback, often going out of my way (and taking a small loss) to deal with crazy and/or difficult people in order to keep my perfect feedback status. I would pinpoint the time Ebay went off the rails to many years ago, when they changed their feedback system. The whole beauty of Ebay was that it was based on reputation. If I was selling something for thousands of dollars, I would only allow buyers that had plenty of good feedback. This simple system allowed you to avoid 99% of scammers. The only scammers that got through were people who spent a long time acting legit and building up lots of positive feedback, then "going rogue" and using that built-up goodwill to pull off a scam. This risk was small and worth taking (happened to me twice after hundreds of sales). At some point, though, Ebay changed their feedback system so that sellers could not leave buyers negative feedback! You could only leave positive feedback, or refuse to leave feedback at all. Overnight, the entire reputation-based system of buyer/seller reputation was destroyed. Within three months of the change I was hit by three scammers, after selling less then ten total items. This was more scammers than I had to deal with in a decade of prior Ebay sales. There was simply no way for me to figure out which buyers were legit, and no way to warn other sellers which buyers were scammers. As evidenced in the article above, Ebay has absolutely no interest in blocking these scammers. Contacting Ebay inevitably results in a canned response that has nothing to do with your issue. Shortly after they changed their feedback system I stopped selling on Ebay all together. It just isn't worth dealing with the scammers, and Ebay seems to think that their current business model is fine.

sqldba 10y ago
So what do you use instead?
- giarc 10y ago
  Is there anything else? Etsy maybe... but it's more for hand crafted stuff, so you won't get the same buyers. Craigslist, but that's more of a local, in person marketplace. I can't think of one eBay replacement.

jaimex2 10y ago

Yeah, eBay is not a place to casually sell anymore. The 10% fee was bad enough but now you have to place a bond account even if your account has a long reputation of happy customers. Facebook marketplace is the way to go. You get way more exposure and can usually sell something in minutes.

hackuser 10y ago

> eBay is an enormous company with over $8 billion in revenue a year, so naturally it's difficult to talk to anyone there who is not a computer It's not naturally difficult, it's just a decision by eBay. With that kind of money they could pay and train people to provide service to you. Larger companies than eBay operate tech support services, and my guess is that tech support is higher-skilled than the customer service eBay needs.

cbdfghh 10y ago

Would it be possible to take ebay to a small claims court?

duaneb 10y ago
Yup. Realistically that's your best chance. Dunno about outside the US though.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Don't think so, Ebay has an arbitration clause in their user agreement. http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html
  - duaneb 10y ago
    That's very expensive compared to small claims court. I doubt they'd use that clause.

simonhamp 10y ago

I'm finding it hard to understand what's so difficult about eBay 'doing the right thing' here... surely it can't be that hard to take seller evidence into account and cross-reference that with buyer proof that they returned the correct item in the condition they received it...

FrankenPC 10y ago

This happened to me as well and the thief/buyer decided it would be funny to leave negative feedback as well. I'm not selling on Ebay ever again. The system is st

dstaten 10y ago

I will never use eBay again. It took over a month to get a refund for a product that was never shipped. In fact the transaction was somehow canceled by the seller within minutes of it being completed, but it still took a ton of work on my end to get the refund. What a shame

annerajb 10y ago

I had something like this happen. The buyer from hungary filed a item not received claim and they took my money from my paypal account (it has been negative ever since). 5 months later out of curiosity I sent a message to the buyer and he replied that he did received. But since the case was closed in Ebay there is no way for me to forward the email I received from him to get my account back up in good standing... I was sent to collections and filed a debt verification letter which they didnt reply correctly and havent responded to it and two years later still does not show on my credit report. If it ever does I will just file the debt verification letter again and ask for small claims court.

kagamine 10y ago
Sounds like your Hungarian buyer was legit but it just took along time to arrive. I've had that happen a number of times and every time it is because the customs/toll people open my parcel to "check it". It frustrates me no en d when I have to contact a seller a week past estimated delivery date, who then supplies a tracking number or a promise, and then the item turns up 10 days later with a govt. sticker on it and a hole in the packaging. I swear they think I'm a drug dealer and not the owner of a 30+ year old 4x4 (a lot of small packets!).

conductr 10y ago

Wonder what would happen if author filed a small claim in his local jurisdiction? (Against eBay) I tend to think eBay would not even respond and lose by default

rick_perez 10y ago

"I don’t accept payment by check or Western Union and I don’t accept returns." If you sell me a broken phone, it gets broken in the mail because you didn't package it correctly, or any other thing that can happen between the time you send it out and when I receive it, you should refund my money or accept my return. I buy hundreds of thousands of products per month for my business on Ebay and Amazon and many people outright lie about the products they are trying to sell me. A good return policy is a must. My theory is that it's one of the only reasons Amazon and Ebay became the kings of the online marketplace. I've tried to purchase from the other sites and because there are barely any protections in place for buyers, I always go back.

vostrocity 10y ago
This is what I was thinking. I don't see ill will on eBay's part. What I see is a few badly-designed processes: not soliciting proof when there is a buyer/seller dispute and not integrating a "Money Back Guarantee" charge into eBay's account balance. These seem like matters of incompetence. Also, in my experience, when I refused to pay eBay for some charges I disagreed with, they simply sent the debt to a collections agency.
- jbmorgado 10y ago
  > "Also, in my experience, when I refused to pay eBay for some charges I disagreed with, they simply sent the debt to a collections agency." Well, eBay does this because they know that legally they don't have a leg to stand on in some cases, so they resource to harass their client into complying and give them money they are not legally entitled to.

catalystframe 10y ago

Yeah had same kind of issue. Dispute management people told me "If I was running a business, I'd accept every customer I can." My response "even if they're using you as a free rental service?" Author is 100% right, they totally side with the buyer and they're essentially churning through sellers to make money. Even if they ever clean up, fuck em

thisrod 10y ago

So in Australia we have things called small claims courts, which are designed to make it practical for an individual citizen to sue a billion dollar company for a few hundred dollars. And I think that Australian consumer law would take a very dim view of website terms and conditions that claimed to prevent it. There's a tradition of "Yes, your thousand-dollar contract is enforcable, but any attempt to enforce it would be an offence under the Trade Practices Act, and we could fine you a million dollars if you tried."

jliptzin 10y ago

Pretty much the same exact thing happened to me about 6 years ago. Nice to know ebay's policy still hasn't changed. I'm still banned from paypal because I refused to pay them back the money they refunded to the scammer. I used to use ebay pretty frequently but since that incident I've only been back there a couple of times to buy things (with a friend's paypal account) that I really couldn't find anywhere else.

rdlecler1 10y ago

I stopped using eBay in 2003 when I had aweful service with PayPal. It's sad. eBay could have been Amazon. It had so much going for it--too good to fail--unfortunately poor leadership wronged the ship.

fapjacks 10y ago

Yeah absolutely fuck Ebay. It was broken years ago.

Scottn1 10y ago

I have been a ebay user since 1999. Have accumulated 200 feedbacks and currently at 100% positive. But I have entertained closing my account a few times in past two years and have started to cut back drastically on ebay as both a buyer and especially a seller. First, as others have mentioned, they have a monopolistic marketplace where they require one to use their own Paypal for transactions. The combined fee's for selling on ebay + Paypal now are 10% of the final sold amount + the shipping amount. Where margins are slim as it is and things are already selling well below their value at times because of so many other competing auctions, the fee's make it not worth it in many cases. They are making a boatload in fees and I'm tired of it. I just sold $400 golf clubs and had to give them $42? Ebay provides value as the market is so large. I had those clubs on Craigslist for TWO months and not even a inquiry at that price. Ebay got sold in 7 day auction. But to pay 10% for everything is too greedy imo. They have NO competition. Second, ebay has become a haven for scammers and overrun with them to point I am leery of purchasing anything like electronics, phones, etc on there. Software..forget it! DO NOT buy any licensed software from ebay no matter how good buyer feedback. Even if it claims new/sealed. The pirates have gotten too good. I'd venture to say 99% of software on there now is either a)counterfeit from get go or b)legit but "used" and/or illegal Volume Licenses. The problem is key will work when you get it but fail 5 months from now or when you need to reinstall. I've been victim of this two times now and NO more will I buy software off ebay. When it does fail, it is long enough you have zero recourse. Ebay you can't even file a claim as they give you only like 14 days after purchase. A pirate knows this and gets keys from a keygen. I had 8 legit looking MS Office licenses in sealed retail boxes register then 4 months later started to fail. Called Microsoft and they told me I had registered them too many times and they are now flagged. Huh? I only installed them ONCE. Credit card company didn't even help as it was past the time limit for a case. So basically the seller sold many of the same key and whoever bought from him, who knows how many of us, they are all worthless. Really upsets me that ebay allows ANY software even on there. They clearly know that this must be going on. I tried to inform them of the practice but couldn't even find a contact to let know. They don't care as they are making their fees! Tons of them from software. Their only concern is a small webpage to help identify counterfeit. From now on, I will only buy hard items that can't be counterfeited or scammed easily, like golf clubs. Third, as this story is about, ebay is WAY to buyer-centric and I too was once bitten by similar story as topic starter. Not as blatantly bad as the OP or that amount of money, but bad enough I was pissed. Eventually also got someone from ebay on the phone and as similar was brushed off and there was no pleading my case. End of story, refund the money. It cost me out of my own pocket by time it was returned and settled.

No1 10y ago

It's not just the buyers who are scammers - the amount of counterfeit and significantly-not-as-described stuff being sold is astounding. Ebay is large enough to do their own sample purchases, but clearly they just don't care. I stopped using Ebay after they sent me a message saying that I had contested too many transactions (all due to counterfeit goods) and could not contest again for some period of time. I'm interested in what will happen when Ebay becomes a site for scammers sellers to transact with scammer buyers.

qq66 10y ago

I've had good experiences with hard-to-find items on eBay by following two simple rules: 1) I will only buy an expensive item from a seller with thousands of reviews and a 99.8% rating or higher, and 2) I will only sell an expensive item to a buyer with an account older than three years, more than 100 transactions, a 100% rating, and other expensive and related items in their history. I don't typically get the best prices, of course, but I've never been scammed.

nommm-nommm 10y ago
Buyers don't leave feedback most of the time. You're basically looking at only buying from very high volume professional sellers. I that's ok if that's what you're looking for but I like the low volume casual sellers myself, I think they put more care into it. The only time I've ever been scammed as a buyer was when I bought from a high volume professional seller. >other expensive and related items in their history Is there a way to view what someone has bought now? Last I knew they got rid of showing the buyer's item on their feedback page a few years ago. Is there another place to find this information?

teknologist 10y ago

I'm from the UK. Some years ago we bought a game console on eBay and instead received a photo (!) of one in the post. eBay were unwilling to act, so we went to the local police station and reported it. To our surprise they eventually found the seller and recovered the money.

sveme 10y ago
Same here in Germany. A friend bought a MacBook off ebay and wire-transferred some money to his bank account. He never shipped. So she contacted first his bank (which coincidentally was the same as hers) and then the local police. Both were very understanding and said that they could not do much officially, but sent a police car to his location to "interview" him while the bank also contacted him. He quickly sent all the money back. Doubt he'll try something like that again. The guy in the OP commited fraud, the iphone was sent to a US address - why is it so hard to get in contact with local police, even if just an additional step?
- codedokode 10y ago
  The buyer was from Eastern Europe and american address was a mail forwarder. By the way mail forwarders usually make photos of items sent through them so eBay could concact them and ask for photo (and see that the item was sent properly) if only it was interested to find out the truth.

slezyr 10y ago

Try to report it to Kharkiv's police. https://police.kh.ua/?lang=en https://police.kh.ua/?lang=en

Noseshine 10y ago
Why do you mention a random country's police? For the record, the buyer... with a shipping address... New Castle, DE 19726-2079, United States. Both buyer and seller are located in the US.
- lobe 10y ago
  The return package has a label indicating it was sent from that town which is in the Ukraine
- codedokode 10y ago
  The address in Delaware is a mail forwarder and they have the real address of a buyer.
slezyr 10y ago
My bad. This package been send from USA -> Ukraine, Kharkiv. When I saw article and addresses automatically assumed that someone from Ukraine stole it.
lisivka 10y ago
Don't. Police may ruin his life. IMHO, phone is stolen at customs.
- lisivka 10y ago
  Anonymous downvoters, please, take this seriously. Ukrainian police will be happy to open case against him, then report that they uncovered international fraud. They are obligated to open case and they are obligated to keep rate of uncovered crimes high, especially for international crimes. In reality, „scammer“ just lost about $200 (shipping + VAT + money conversion rate). I checked his name and address: he is son of a private entrepreneur. His parent will have lot of problems if somebody will try to report that item, which is stolen at customs, as fraud.

setq 10y ago

Had this problem before. If you send something expensive, film yourself putting it in the box, write the serial numbers down, send it recorded or signed for delivery always, withdraw EVERYTHING from your paypal account instantly into your bank account. A friend of mine however ended up with a debt collection agency (Transcom) after him for 6 months because he refused to refund the item. Eventually after much letter writing with "fuck off" in it basically, they gave up because there wasn't a genuine claim that would stand up in court. I still buy and sell off ebay but it's usually very niche items which are on 1:1 interest and low value (vintage transistors for example). Anything popular, I get the other half to stick it on Facebook and it's gone, in cash usually within 72 hours. No fees, nothing.

timmaxw 10y ago

Behind the specific problem of eBay prioritizing buyers over sellers, there's a more general problem of how marketplaces can determine who's right in a dispute. Other commenters have suggested taking a video while packing up the item and unpacking the return. However, that could be vulnerable to fraud as well; how can you prove that the package you film yourself opening is the package the other party actually sent? Perhaps UPS/Fedex could act as a verification service. For a small fee, the UPS store employees could photograph the contents of the package before it gets mailed, check if the electronics turn on, write down the serial numbers, etc. and send a report to eBay.

codedokode 10y ago

As I understand his mistake was to sell an item to Eastern Europe. He should have sold it to US so in case if something goes wrong he could use the police. Mail forwarders usually take photos of items sent through them (so their customers could see what they would receive). Ebay could contact the forwarder if they wanted to find out the truth.

ns8sl 10y ago

I tried to sell Bitcoin on eBay and every single buyer attempted to commit fraud.

phjesusthatguy3 10y ago

I just have to say I'm grateful this hasn't happened to me. I just started using ebay again after a ~8 year break to sell off some LPs, and gotten through about $1000 of sales without a problem.

ionised 10y ago

In my personal opinion, EBay and PayPal have both become seriously shady and among my own awful experiences with the two companies I have family members that have experienced varying levels of bullshit treatment, not limited to PayPal hounding them for years for money they clearly did not owe and EBay blacklisting them for this reason. Then there are the horror stories like this all over the internet that just cemented my decision to never use or recommend either service ever again.

amai 10y ago

Why does eBay allow buyers to use remailer addresses? It should be very easy for them to check that and not allow any buyers using these remailer addresses.

prirun 10y ago

First, sorry that you got screwed on your phone. That sucks. I recently sold 50 4TB hard drives on eBay. I had 2 returns for broken drives that were damaged in shipping (my fault - the first 2 drives I sent weren't packed well enough), and one other drive returned that the buyer said was broken. I tested the 3rd drive and found it worked perfectly, so reported the buyer for abuse of the return process (I did allow returns, but only for defective drives). To its credit, eBay refunded to me the shipping charges both ways that I had paid. The buyer was pissed off and still insisted that the drive was defective (and he was a Microsoft Certified something or other, blah, blah), but strangely enough, it had 60 more hours on it when I received it back. Hmm... I guess I was lucky I didn't get back a 40GB drive. I recertified the drive, resold it, and had no complaints. My point is, yes, you can get screwed on eBay. But I live in a podunk town of 35K in Indiana and there's no way I could have sold 50 4TB hard drives as easily as I did on eBay. Guess I could have tried Craigslist, but I didn't want to meet 50 strangers at a McDonald's, and I doubt people would even want to buy them without seeing them actually work in a computer system. If this phone thing had happened to me, I probably would have filed a small claims against eBay, regardless of what their stupid user agreement says I can or cannot do. You'd be surprised how seriously a company takes your complaint if they get a legal document.

silverdrake11 10y ago

UPDATE: It looks like eBay refunded him because of the reaction here on HN http://matthewsag.com/?p=1649 http://matthewsag.com/?p=1649