7 ms·

The solution for obesity is self control. Any other band aid is just a crutch. I wish we could move past 'genetics' and take personal responsibility.

blacksmith_tb 10y ago
Not that they are entirely equivalent, but try and apply that argument to, say, heroin addiction. Or depression.
nxc18 10y ago
While having strong self control is of course important, there are differences between individuals that you're not considering. Many of the people who give this self-control argument have never had theirs tested - it is hard to not eat a lot when you are acutely hungry and eating doesn't stop that, for example. Also note that your statement doesn't really work in the general case. I have friends who are extremely skinny (to the point that it distresses them) who are trying to get bigger. It doesn't matter how many thousands of calories they eat, how excellent their nutrition is, they struggle to gain anything - and that is someone who naturally only wants to eat ~1500 calories per day. Is it lack of self-control that they don't spend every waking moment stuffing in high-calorie food despite not being hungry?
- avar 10y ago
  Have these friends of yours tried talking to e.g. a powerlifting or bodybuilding coach? It's pretty easy to get on a structured low-effort diet to gain weight, and muscle mass with some exercise thrown in. Getting above 1500 calories isn't some desperate effort of "spend[ing] every waking moment stuffing in high-calorie food". It's a couple of protein shakes a day that take you a couple of minutes to prepare & slurp down. Eating enough can be a very difficult logistical problem, but not at the 1500 calorie level, but at something like a >5000 calorie level where you're a professional strongman or powerlifter, or someone like Michael Phelps eating 8000 calories a day.
  - nxc18 10y ago
    He was drinking lots of protein shakes... It wasn't that he was maxing out at 1500, it is that he didn't seem to want much more than that. With the amount of protein shakes and other things he was eating, anyone else would have gained fat at the very least. He lifted, too, but he wasn't that dedicated, so idk.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - avar 10y ago
      Sounds like your friend went through a half-assed ad-hoc diet & exercise program, which unsurprisingly didn't yield results. Extracting any useful data from "I have friends who..." is impossible. People are notoriously bad at self-evaluating things like their food intake or exercise regiment, and on top of that they're prone to present themselves in a good light. You'll find few people who'll say "Yeah I could have lost/gained weight, but I lack the dedication and impulse control to manage my diet & exercise", even though that may be the description that best explains the situation.
    - dekhn 10y ago
      protein shakes are the opposite of what you want if you are trying to gain weight.
- blfr 10y ago
  having strong self control is of course important, there are differences between individuals that you're not considering Like that self-control is probably itself in large part a genetic trait.
JamesBarney 10y ago
Self-control is not an intervention... In the future if you think something is a fix, imagine doing it to one group of people, and not doing it to another. If this doesn't make any sense, it's not an intervention or a fix.
fasteo 10y ago
Self-control is driven - mostly - by genes
yourapostasy 10y ago
> The solution for obesity is self control... Absolute, categorical, sweeping, prescriptive assertions like this demand backing citations. If you had used qualifiers like "...for obesity in most/some/plurality of people...", then you probably wouldn't be getting down voted, but just the ketogenic diet's impact alone for many people is sufficient to disprove your assertion that it is only about self-control. In those cases, it was incredibly poor information distributed by the US food and medical industries about the food pyramid that led to continual failure to control weight for many people who found the weight melting off when they tried a ketogenic approach, or simply started to eat fats again instead of assiduously avoiding it. And before you dismiss ketogenic's thesis that low carb high fat works, Sweden's medical establishment found the evidence compelling enough [1]. This doesn't even get into what we're seeing with some fecal transplants, or many other matters we are just beginning to explore about human metabolism. Once within "normal" BMI or body fat percentage, then yes, self-control, portion control, etc. are necessary when on a cut, for example. But for obese and morbidly obese people, not all of them categorically are in their situation due to lack of self-control. I might concede perhaps many of them are, but categorical assertions like yours are uncharitable to the researchers who are pushing the boundaries of our understanding of our own metabolisms, and I would rather our species explain by real science what happens around us rather than prescribing moral allegations as "just so" explanations of our world. [1] https://healthimpactnews.com/2013/sweden-becomes-first-western-nation-to-reject-low-fat-diet-dogma-in-favor-of-low-carb-high-fat-nutrition/ https://healthimpactnews.com/2013/sweden-becomes-first-weste...
- healthit 10y ago
  Shouldn't you have to disprove the obvious explanation (that it's calories consumed that leads to obesity) before we should jump on board with wilder theories? I read the link you posted about the keto diet, and it seems to all be about how it's better for you with regards to cholesterol and glucose levels. It doesn't seem to negate the idea that weight is still simply related to calories consumed. (I recognise there are exceptions, i.e. thyroid/hormonal problems).
  - yourapostasy 10y ago
dghughes 10y ago
It's not always so black and white. I (40s male 5'8") was always normal weight although these days I'd be called thin but in the 1970s and 1980s I was typical for my age and gender. Within the last 5 years I started to gain weight even though I wasn't eating more I just thought it was age. I track what I eat it's a habit of going to the gym for 20+ years. Even though I slacked off the gym for about five years I was active in the summer. To make a long story short it was my thyroid failing. I'm not the typical person who has thyroid problems it's usually middle-aged women. That alone is probably why it took so long to spot the problem. Now on 0.075mg of Synthroid my weight is slowly falling, and yes this still is without any changes to my daily diet. I feel like I have been reborn and all kinds of weird things have stopped; foggy brain, dry skin, weight gain, dozens of other small things.
FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
Your "solution" would solve virtually all the worlds problems... addictions, crime, depression etc. That we still have such problems is evidence that "taking more personal responsibility" this is a deficienct prescription. It's fine that you want to place the blame on someone, but self-control as advice is an ineffective policy prescription, it's more akin to the strategy that religion promoted. Shaming people to get them to alter their behavior often times has the reverse effect, it worsens their addiction.
- jcoffland 10y ago
  This is illogical. There are at least two possible explanations for your evidence. These are: One, that as you say, taking more personal responsibility is ineffective. Two, that taking personal responsibility is effective but modern society is failing to do so. Which of these is correct is up for debate but it's hardly a foregone conclusion.
  - FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
    > Two, that taking personal responsibility is effective but modern society is failing to do so. Which of these is correct is up for debate but it's hardly a foregone conclusion. (1) That these have been problems plaguing mankind since the creation of society and (2) that this solution has been promulgated since ancient times (through various bibles for one) contradicts your above statement. If you preach and scream about personal responsibility and nothing changes, it has failed as a policy no matter who you want to place the blame on.
    - nickff 10y ago
      If a policy is never widely adopted, despite promotion by activists, it is the activists who have failed, not the policy. I am not sure whether encouraging more personal 'responsibility' or ownership would help with these issues, but it seems like western societies have been decreasing their support of these ideas since the 60s.
jv22222 10y ago
Oops, not so fast, there is growing evidence that food addiction is equivalent to opioid addiction which requires a rather large effort and support team to help anyone to "get off the drug". Some studies have shown addiction to sugar, fat, and overeating. Addiction at both the chemical and also mental level. You may say that getting off drugs is also a self control issue, but that is a little bit of an over simplification. A small bit of googling found these results and there seemed to be a lot of results on this topic. ----- According to researchers from Queensland University of Technology (QUT), excessive sugar consumption increases the dopamine levels in a similar way to other drugs such as cocaine. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sugar-has-similar-effect-on-brain-as-cocaine-a6980336.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sugar-has-similar-... The evidence supports the hypothesis that under certain circumstances rats can become sugar dependent. This may translate to some human conditions as suggested by the literature on eating disorders and obesity. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/ We propose that specific foods, especially those that are rich in fat and/or sugar, are capable of promoting “addiction”-like behavior and neuronal change under certain conditions. Such consummatory patterns have been associated with increased risk for comorbid conditions such as obesity, early weight gain, depression, anxiety, and substance abuse as well as with relapse and treatment challenges. The topic of food addiction bears study, therefore, to develop fresh approaches to clinical intervention and to advance our understanding of basic mechanisms involved in loss of control. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2714380/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2714380/ The YFAS exhibited adequate internal reliability, and showed good convergent validity with measures of similar constructs and good discriminant validity relative to related but dissimilar constructs. Additionally, the YFAS predicted binge-eating behavior above and beyond existing measures of eating pathology, demonstrating incremental validity. The YFAS is a sound tool for identifying eating patterns that are similar to behaviors seen in classic areas of addiction. Further evaluation of the scale is needed, especially due to a low response rate of 24.5% and a non-clinical sample, but confirmation of the reliability and validity of the scale has the potential to facilitate empirical research on the concept of ‘‘food addiction’’ http://fastlab.psych.lsa.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/GearhardtCorbinBrownell_PreliminaryValidationYaleFoodAddictionScale_2008.pdf http://fastlab.psych.lsa.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/0...

blacksmith_tb 10y ago

Not that they are entirely equivalent, but try and apply that argument to, say, heroin addiction. Or depression.

nxc18 10y ago

While having strong self control is of course important, there are differences between individuals that you're not considering. Many of the people who give this self-control argument have never had theirs tested - it is hard to not eat a lot when you are acutely hungry and eating doesn't stop that, for example. Also note that your statement doesn't really work in the general case. I have friends who are extremely skinny (to the point that it distresses them) who are trying to get bigger. It doesn't matter how many thousands of calories they eat, how excellent their nutrition is, they struggle to gain anything - and that is someone who naturally only wants to eat ~1500 calories per day. Is it lack of self-control that they don't spend every waking moment stuffing in high-calorie food despite not being hungry?

avar 10y ago
Have these friends of yours tried talking to e.g. a powerlifting or bodybuilding coach? It's pretty easy to get on a structured low-effort diet to gain weight, and muscle mass with some exercise thrown in. Getting above 1500 calories isn't some desperate effort of "spend[ing] every waking moment stuffing in high-calorie food". It's a couple of protein shakes a day that take you a couple of minutes to prepare & slurp down. Eating enough can be a very difficult logistical problem, but not at the 1500 calorie level, but at something like a >5000 calorie level where you're a professional strongman or powerlifter, or someone like Michael Phelps eating 8000 calories a day.
- nxc18 10y ago
  He was drinking lots of protein shakes... It wasn't that he was maxing out at 1500, it is that he didn't seem to want much more than that. With the amount of protein shakes and other things he was eating, anyone else would have gained fat at the very least. He lifted, too, but he wasn't that dedicated, so idk.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - avar 10y ago
    Sounds like your friend went through a half-assed ad-hoc diet & exercise program, which unsurprisingly didn't yield results. Extracting any useful data from "I have friends who..." is impossible. People are notoriously bad at self-evaluating things like their food intake or exercise regiment, and on top of that they're prone to present themselves in a good light. You'll find few people who'll say "Yeah I could have lost/gained weight, but I lack the dedication and impulse control to manage my diet & exercise", even though that may be the description that best explains the situation.
  - dekhn 10y ago
    protein shakes are the opposite of what you want if you are trying to gain weight.
blfr 10y ago
having strong self control is of course important, there are differences between individuals that you're not considering Like that self-control is probably itself in large part a genetic trait.

JamesBarney 10y ago

Self-control is not an intervention... In the future if you think something is a fix, imagine doing it to one group of people, and not doing it to another. If this doesn't make any sense, it's not an intervention or a fix.

fasteo 10y ago

Self-control is driven - mostly - by genes

yourapostasy 10y ago

> The solution for obesity is self control... Absolute, categorical, sweeping, prescriptive assertions like this demand backing citations. If you had used qualifiers like "...for obesity in most/some/plurality of people...", then you probably wouldn't be getting down voted, but just the ketogenic diet's impact alone for many people is sufficient to disprove your assertion that it is only about self-control. In those cases, it was incredibly poor information distributed by the US food and medical industries about the food pyramid that led to continual failure to control weight for many people who found the weight melting off when they tried a ketogenic approach, or simply started to eat fats again instead of assiduously avoiding it. And before you dismiss ketogenic's thesis that low carb high fat works, Sweden's medical establishment found the evidence compelling enough [1]. This doesn't even get into what we're seeing with some fecal transplants, or many other matters we are just beginning to explore about human metabolism. Once within "normal" BMI or body fat percentage, then yes, self-control, portion control, etc. are necessary when on a cut, for example. But for obese and morbidly obese people, not all of them categorically are in their situation due to lack of self-control. I might concede perhaps many of them are, but categorical assertions like yours are uncharitable to the researchers who are pushing the boundaries of our understanding of our own metabolisms, and I would rather our species explain by real science what happens around us rather than prescribing moral allegations as "just so" explanations of our world. [1] https://healthimpactnews.com/2013/sweden-becomes-first-western-nation-to-reject-low-fat-diet-dogma-in-favor-of-low-carb-high-fat-nutrition/ https://healthimpactnews.com/2013/sweden-becomes-first-weste...

healthit 10y ago
Shouldn't you have to disprove the obvious explanation (that it's calories consumed that leads to obesity) before we should jump on board with wilder theories? I read the link you posted about the keto diet, and it seems to all be about how it's better for you with regards to cholesterol and glucose levels. It doesn't seem to negate the idea that weight is still simply related to calories consumed. (I recognise there are exceptions, i.e. thyroid/hormonal problems).
- yourapostasy 10y ago

dghughes 10y ago

It's not always so black and white. I (40s male 5'8") was always normal weight although these days I'd be called thin but in the 1970s and 1980s I was typical for my age and gender. Within the last 5 years I started to gain weight even though I wasn't eating more I just thought it was age. I track what I eat it's a habit of going to the gym for 20+ years. Even though I slacked off the gym for about five years I was active in the summer. To make a long story short it was my thyroid failing. I'm not the typical person who has thyroid problems it's usually middle-aged women. That alone is probably why it took so long to spot the problem. Now on 0.075mg of Synthroid my weight is slowly falling, and yes this still is without any changes to my daily diet. I feel like I have been reborn and all kinds of weird things have stopped; foggy brain, dry skin, weight gain, dozens of other small things.

FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago

Your "solution" would solve virtually all the worlds problems... addictions, crime, depression etc. That we still have such problems is evidence that "taking more personal responsibility" this is a deficienct prescription. It's fine that you want to place the blame on someone, but self-control as advice is an ineffective policy prescription, it's more akin to the strategy that religion promoted. Shaming people to get them to alter their behavior often times has the reverse effect, it worsens their addiction.

jcoffland 10y ago
This is illogical. There are at least two possible explanations for your evidence. These are: One, that as you say, taking more personal responsibility is ineffective. Two, that taking personal responsibility is effective but modern society is failing to do so. Which of these is correct is up for debate but it's hardly a foregone conclusion.
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
  > Two, that taking personal responsibility is effective but modern society is failing to do so. Which of these is correct is up for debate but it's hardly a foregone conclusion. (1) That these have been problems plaguing mankind since the creation of society and (2) that this solution has been promulgated since ancient times (through various bibles for one) contradicts your above statement. If you preach and scream about personal responsibility and nothing changes, it has failed as a policy no matter who you want to place the blame on.
  - nickff 10y ago
    If a policy is never widely adopted, despite promotion by activists, it is the activists who have failed, not the policy. I am not sure whether encouraging more personal 'responsibility' or ownership would help with these issues, but it seems like western societies have been decreasing their support of these ideas since the 60s.

jv22222 10y ago

Oops, not so fast, there is growing evidence that food addiction is equivalent to opioid addiction which requires a rather large effort and support team to help anyone to "get off the drug". Some studies have shown addiction to sugar, fat, and overeating. Addiction at both the chemical and also mental level. You may say that getting off drugs is also a self control issue, but that is a little bit of an over simplification. A small bit of googling found these results and there seemed to be a lot of results on this topic. ----- According to researchers from Queensland University of Technology (QUT), excessive sugar consumption increases the dopamine levels in a similar way to other drugs such as cocaine. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sugar-has-similar-effect-on-brain-as-cocaine-a6980336.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sugar-has-similar-... The evidence supports the hypothesis that under certain circumstances rats can become sugar dependent. This may translate to some human conditions as suggested by the literature on eating disorders and obesity. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/ We propose that specific foods, especially those that are rich in fat and/or sugar, are capable of promoting “addiction”-like behavior and neuronal change under certain conditions. Such consummatory patterns have been associated with increased risk for comorbid conditions such as obesity, early weight gain, depression, anxiety, and substance abuse as well as with relapse and treatment challenges. The topic of food addiction bears study, therefore, to develop fresh approaches to clinical intervention and to advance our understanding of basic mechanisms involved in loss of control. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2714380/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2714380/ The YFAS exhibited adequate internal reliability, and showed good convergent validity with measures of similar constructs and good discriminant validity relative to related but dissimilar constructs. Additionally, the YFAS predicted binge-eating behavior above and beyond existing measures of eating pathology, demonstrating incremental validity. The YFAS is a sound tool for identifying eating patterns that are similar to behaviors seen in classic areas of addiction. Further evaluation of the scale is needed, especially due to a low response rate of 24.5% and a non-clinical sample, but confirmation of the reliability and validity of the scale has the potential to facilitate empirical research on the concept of ‘‘food addiction’’ http://fastlab.psych.lsa.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/GearhardtCorbinBrownell_PreliminaryValidationYaleFoodAddictionScale_2008.pdf http://fastlab.psych.lsa.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/0...