7 ms·

I think the real lesson of the story isn't that the system is "working", it's that we've (society) been purchasing tons and tons of a product for who knows how

I think the real lesson of the story isn't that the system is "working", it's that we've (society) been purchasing tons and tons of a product for who knows how long that has been inauthentic, without any idea that it was the case. How long has this been happening? For how many other products is this the case? It's certainly better that we know and (hopefully) some corrective action is taken, but overall I'd read it as a signal of dysfunction. And I don' think macintux is suggesting that we're presently within the libertarian ideal, rather we're in the universe where it's considered a responsibility of the state to prevent these kinds of things from happening, yet they are still happening. So look what happened here, and imagine what would happen with even fewer failsafes...

nsxwolf 10y ago
I think one of the reasons this particular situation went on this long is that aloe is kind of a bullshit product in the first place. What do you use it for, sunburn? Can you honestly tell the difference between some putting some jelly with aloe in it on your sunburn vs some other jelly? I don't think it's obviously effective in the way that Tylenol is on a fever or headache.
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  FWIW, aloe isn't really a good remedy for sunburn. A sunburn, like any other skinburn, should be treated quickly with lots of running water slightly colder than lukewarm; i.e. a cold shower. That's a lot more efficient due to basic physics.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dllthomas 10y ago
    Could you spell out the basic physics? I am having trouble connecting it to anything I learned in school. Biology/chemistry seems substantially more relevant.
    - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
      To help heal the sunburn you must cool the skin. Aloe can only cool by a very small amount, as compared to running cool water.
      - stouset 10y ago
        Sunburn has nothing to do with temperature. You can get a third-degree sunburn in sub-freezing temperatures.
        Kroniker 10y ago
        It has to do with UV-irritation, I believe. This guy might be talking about getting burned by the sun, perhaps by being too close ;)
        semi-extrinsic 10y ago
        Sunburn is inflammation of the skin. Inflammation is typically treated by cooling (e.g. when you put ice on a sprained ankle).
      - dllthomas 10y ago
        It's that first step that isn't clear to me. It may be the case, but it needs something other than physics to tell us that - and it doesn't tell us why slightly-cooler-than-lukewarm water is better than ice water.
        semi-extrinsic 10y ago
        You generally treat mild inflammation by cooling. The reason why you don't want to use ice water is because that will cool the outer layer of your skin to the point of pain before it's cooled the deeper layers significantly. Using slightly cold water means you can stay in the water for fifteen minutes easily, cooling all the skin layers well. I thought this was common knowledge, i.e. basic first aid for burns in general?
- will_brown 10y ago
  I feel very confident you don't live in a tropical climate and have never experienced the application of fresh cut aloe plant. Aloe in plant form is the real deal, and more so than any commercially processed aloe product (w/added pain relievers) or other after sun product I am aware of. It significantly defies pain/discomfort, keeps the skin moisturized and in many cases can prevent peeling from burns. Plus you can eat/juice the gel and it has hydration and anti-toxin benefits.
  - dpark 10y ago
    > I feel very confident you don't live in a tropical climate and have never experienced the application of fresh cut aloe plant. I feel very confident that this is irrelevant since lotion you might buy at Wal-Mart is definitely not fresh cut aloe regardless of whether it contains small amounts of aloe juice. > Plus you can eat/juice the gel and it has hydration and anti-toxin benefits. Whenever someone makes a generic reference to "toxins", I immediately doubt anything else that they say with respect to health or medicine. There are many things that are toxic to humans but there are no things that are generically "anti-toxin" except maybe water. I cannot imagine that aloe has any effect on mercury exposure, or cyanide consumption, or even tobacco smoke inhalation.
    - will_brown 10y ago
      >I feel very confident that this is irrelevant since lotion you might buy at Wal-Mart is definitely not fresh cut aloe Well it isn't irrelevant because in tropical climates you are much more likely to have experienced sunburn, have ready access to aloe plants and personal experience with its benefits. For example, processed aloe gels aside Walmart's in South Florida generally will have fresh cut aloe vera plant in their produce section, not sure if that is true in non-tropical climates. Nevertheless, my point is clearly not address the aloe lotion in the article but rather claim of the comment that aloe vera itself is bullshit. > I cannot imagine that aloe has any effect on mercury exposure, or cyanide consumption, or even tobacco smoke inhalation. Just because I didn't go into detail doesn't mean I am making a blanket claim anti-toxin benefits means you pick any toxin you like and aloe is the answer. That is on par with losing faith in anti-biotics because people discuss anti-biotics generally but we know a given anti-biotic may not be appropriate for any and all bacterial infections. Anyway because I didn't label the toxins doesn't erase the decades of scientific studies which are pretty conclusive toxic heavy metals, including mercury and lead, readily bind with aloe vera. For example, when plants grown in polluted environments where heavy metal toxins are present other plants might not even show traces but the aloe plants will be off the charts. In the human body this binding process allows you to expel some of the heavy metal toxins. I believe studies show cilantro have a similar effect with heavy metal toxins in the body particularly mercury.
- WildUtah 10y ago
  Evidence of the effectiveness of Tylenol on fever or headache is very, very weak. It's similar to the evidence for aloe. Mostly Tylenol is administered as a placebo. Fake aloe is at least useful as a moisturizer.
  - chillacy 10y ago
    Really? I found several double blind studies showing the effectiveness of acetaminophen on headaches: http://www.neurology.org/content/48/1/103.short http://www.neurology.org/content/48/1/103.short http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/1032899 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/10... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4610.2006.00376.x/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4610.2006....
semi-extrinsic 10y ago
> we've (society) been purchasing tons and tons of a product for who knows how long that has been inauthentic, without any idea that it was the case Also, whenever this happens, one should stop and consider: "Why are we buying aloe vera products in the first place, when millions of people using the product for years are unable to detect that it's fake?" If this happened with something tangible, say replacing all regular coke with diet coke without changing the labels, it would be noticed immediately. Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- klagermkii 10y ago
  > Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake? Yes.
  - mzw_mzw 10y ago
    I think the point was that the real thing is just as much (or as little) of a fraud as the fake is.
  - aarongolliver 10y ago
    Especially because, if someone's been buying fakes all their life, how could they possibly know what real Aloe is like?
- burkaman 10y ago
  What if it was something like soap? How could you possibly tell if you were buying fake soap? If you get sick, do you immediately suspect that your soap supplier has defrauded you?
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
cmurf 10y ago
I see it as an example of both market and government failure. Edit: FTFA "There’s no watchdog assuring that aloe products are what they say they are. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration doesn’t approve cosmetics before they’re sold and has never levied a fine for selling fake aloe." OK so I'm wrong, it's just market failure, the government isn't even involved in this.
- Steel_Phoenix 10y ago
  Not entirely wrong. You're proof that people have the expectation that products are being well regulated. I think most people do assume this, even if they can't name a law or regulatory authority that would do so. In a way, we're getting the worst of both worlds. The lack of oversight from an unregulated environment with the consumer complacency of a regulated one. If we could downplay the amount of oversight on products, people might be more skeptical as consumers. Putting analytical technology or services in the hands of consumers would be even better.
- sqldba 10y ago
  It's weird that there's no general law covering this in America. In Australia we have the Australian Consumer Law which covers basics like, "It has to do/be/contain what it says it does," otherwise you get a refund or replacement. I... don't know how anyone can survive without this most basic protection.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  When there's such a blatant and obvious breach of the law, in this case a fraud, against a large number of citizens (all the people who bought the product), then shouldn't the government themselves wade in and initiate legal proceedings - with an independent judiciary what's the problem with that? Surely there is a government department that covers product fraud? In the UK we have Trading Standards (and the Advertising Standards Agency (ASA) [which might be a NGO?]) that would both be in part responsible to take action on the consumers behalf ... presumably there's some action needed in the UK now, can't imagine this is only in USA. Mind you from the article it sounds like the fraud is in quantity of Aloe Vera added; that these products may have 1ppm of Aloe Vera or something??

nsxwolf 10y ago

I think one of the reasons this particular situation went on this long is that aloe is kind of a bullshit product in the first place. What do you use it for, sunburn? Can you honestly tell the difference between some putting some jelly with aloe in it on your sunburn vs some other jelly? I don't think it's obviously effective in the way that Tylenol is on a fever or headache.

semi-extrinsic 10y ago
FWIW, aloe isn't really a good remedy for sunburn. A sunburn, like any other skinburn, should be treated quickly with lots of running water slightly colder than lukewarm; i.e. a cold shower. That's a lot more efficient due to basic physics.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dllthomas 10y ago
  Could you spell out the basic physics? I am having trouble connecting it to anything I learned in school. Biology/chemistry seems substantially more relevant.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    To help heal the sunburn you must cool the skin. Aloe can only cool by a very small amount, as compared to running cool water.
    - stouset 10y ago
      Sunburn has nothing to do with temperature. You can get a third-degree sunburn in sub-freezing temperatures.
      - Kroniker 10y ago
        It has to do with UV-irritation, I believe. This guy might be talking about getting burned by the sun, perhaps by being too close ;)
      - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
        Sunburn is inflammation of the skin. Inflammation is typically treated by cooling (e.g. when you put ice on a sprained ankle).
    - dllthomas 10y ago
      It's that first step that isn't clear to me. It may be the case, but it needs something other than physics to tell us that - and it doesn't tell us why slightly-cooler-than-lukewarm water is better than ice water.
      - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
        You generally treat mild inflammation by cooling. The reason why you don't want to use ice water is because that will cool the outer layer of your skin to the point of pain before it's cooled the deeper layers significantly. Using slightly cold water means you can stay in the water for fifteen minutes easily, cooling all the skin layers well. I thought this was common knowledge, i.e. basic first aid for burns in general?
will_brown 10y ago
I feel very confident you don't live in a tropical climate and have never experienced the application of fresh cut aloe plant. Aloe in plant form is the real deal, and more so than any commercially processed aloe product (w/added pain relievers) or other after sun product I am aware of. It significantly defies pain/discomfort, keeps the skin moisturized and in many cases can prevent peeling from burns. Plus you can eat/juice the gel and it has hydration and anti-toxin benefits.
- dpark 10y ago
  > I feel very confident you don't live in a tropical climate and have never experienced the application of fresh cut aloe plant. I feel very confident that this is irrelevant since lotion you might buy at Wal-Mart is definitely not fresh cut aloe regardless of whether it contains small amounts of aloe juice. > Plus you can eat/juice the gel and it has hydration and anti-toxin benefits. Whenever someone makes a generic reference to "toxins", I immediately doubt anything else that they say with respect to health or medicine. There are many things that are toxic to humans but there are no things that are generically "anti-toxin" except maybe water. I cannot imagine that aloe has any effect on mercury exposure, or cyanide consumption, or even tobacco smoke inhalation.
  - will_brown 10y ago
    >I feel very confident that this is irrelevant since lotion you might buy at Wal-Mart is definitely not fresh cut aloe Well it isn't irrelevant because in tropical climates you are much more likely to have experienced sunburn, have ready access to aloe plants and personal experience with its benefits. For example, processed aloe gels aside Walmart's in South Florida generally will have fresh cut aloe vera plant in their produce section, not sure if that is true in non-tropical climates. Nevertheless, my point is clearly not address the aloe lotion in the article but rather claim of the comment that aloe vera itself is bullshit. > I cannot imagine that aloe has any effect on mercury exposure, or cyanide consumption, or even tobacco smoke inhalation. Just because I didn't go into detail doesn't mean I am making a blanket claim anti-toxin benefits means you pick any toxin you like and aloe is the answer. That is on par with losing faith in anti-biotics because people discuss anti-biotics generally but we know a given anti-biotic may not be appropriate for any and all bacterial infections. Anyway because I didn't label the toxins doesn't erase the decades of scientific studies which are pretty conclusive toxic heavy metals, including mercury and lead, readily bind with aloe vera. For example, when plants grown in polluted environments where heavy metal toxins are present other plants might not even show traces but the aloe plants will be off the charts. In the human body this binding process allows you to expel some of the heavy metal toxins. I believe studies show cilantro have a similar effect with heavy metal toxins in the body particularly mercury.
WildUtah 10y ago
Evidence of the effectiveness of Tylenol on fever or headache is very, very weak. It's similar to the evidence for aloe. Mostly Tylenol is administered as a placebo. Fake aloe is at least useful as a moisturizer.
- chillacy 10y ago
  Really? I found several double blind studies showing the effectiveness of acetaminophen on headaches: http://www.neurology.org/content/48/1/103.short http://www.neurology.org/content/48/1/103.short http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/1032899 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/10... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4610.2006.00376.x/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4610.2006....

semi-extrinsic 10y ago

> we've (society) been purchasing tons and tons of a product for who knows how long that has been inauthentic, without any idea that it was the case Also, whenever this happens, one should stop and consider: "Why are we buying aloe vera products in the first place, when millions of people using the product for years are unable to detect that it's fake?" If this happened with something tangible, say replacing all regular coke with diet coke without changing the labels, it would be noticed immediately. Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
klagermkii 10y ago
> Whenever people buy something which they are completely unable to differentiate from a fake, are they really being defrauded when someone sells them the fake? Yes.
- mzw_mzw 10y ago
  I think the point was that the real thing is just as much (or as little) of a fraud as the fake is.
- aarongolliver 10y ago
  Especially because, if someone's been buying fakes all their life, how could they possibly know what real Aloe is like?
burkaman 10y ago
What if it was something like soap? How could you possibly tell if you were buying fake soap? If you get sick, do you immediately suspect that your soap supplier has defrauded you?
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago

cmurf 10y ago

I see it as an example of both market and government failure. Edit: FTFA "There’s no watchdog assuring that aloe products are what they say they are. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration doesn’t approve cosmetics before they’re sold and has never levied a fine for selling fake aloe." OK so I'm wrong, it's just market failure, the government isn't even involved in this.

Steel_Phoenix 10y ago
Not entirely wrong. You're proof that people have the expectation that products are being well regulated. I think most people do assume this, even if they can't name a law or regulatory authority that would do so. In a way, we're getting the worst of both worlds. The lack of oversight from an unregulated environment with the consumer complacency of a regulated one. If we could downplay the amount of oversight on products, people might be more skeptical as consumers. Putting analytical technology or services in the hands of consumers would be even better.
sqldba 10y ago
It's weird that there's no general law covering this in America. In Australia we have the Australian Consumer Law which covers basics like, "It has to do/be/contain what it says it does," otherwise you get a refund or replacement. I... don't know how anyone can survive without this most basic protection.
pbhjpbhj 10y ago
When there's such a blatant and obvious breach of the law, in this case a fraud, against a large number of citizens (all the people who bought the product), then shouldn't the government themselves wade in and initiate legal proceedings - with an independent judiciary what's the problem with that? Surely there is a government department that covers product fraud? In the UK we have Trading Standards (and the Advertising Standards Agency (ASA) [which might be a NGO?]) that would both be in part responsible to take action on the consumers behalf ... presumably there's some action needed in the UK now, can't imagine this is only in USA. Mind you from the article it sounds like the fraud is in quantity of Aloe Vera added; that these products may have 1ppm of Aloe Vera or something??