16 ms·

So Microsoft is treating the Mac more seriously as a professional platform while Apple is treating it less seriously? I'm not saying this in a snarky way; I mea

by SiVal 10y ago

So Microsoft is treating the Mac more seriously as a professional platform while Apple is treating it less seriously? I'm not saying this in a snarky way; I mean it literally as a change of corporate strategies in both companies. Microsoft seems to be saying, If you are a pro mainly using the Mac for professional work, we want to do a better job of empowering you, and Apple seems to be saying, If you are a pro mainly using the Mac for professional work, you need to get used to the idea that we are deemphasizing your market--no hard feelings.

cm2187 10y ago
People aren't going to do development on a tablet or a smartphone anytime soon.
- rimantas 10y ago
  While I agree with you there is that thing for trying Swift on iPad.
  - Kyro38 10y ago
    It's a toy for learning, nothing more.
    - adav 10y ago
      It could be an MVP.
      - Cthulhu_ 10y ago
        It is, for learning basic Swift. For developing you want to use a setup that allows you to handle thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lines of code. A single-process touch interface isn't that, I think.
- intoverflow2 10y ago
  Don't speak too soon. "Why would you buy a PC anymore?" - Tim Cook on the iPad Pro launch. Don't be surprised if XCode for iPad Pro is a thing soon. It's becoming clear he sees iPads as the future of computing, it's all he uses personally and developing it's own apps is one of the last things it actually can't do.
  - simooooo 10y ago
    and only $150 for their external keyboard with touchbar!
  - cm2187 10y ago
    You suggest you will develop any serious software without access to a file system? And on a 10 inch screen? Also developers like to you use their own tools. That doesn't fit well with the "you will do as you are told" approach of Apple.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  > People aren't going to do development on a tablet or a smartphone anytime soon. My set up proves you wrong: Nexus 7, bluetooth keyboard, a Debian chroot with git, vim, python and apt. I take that with me to sketchy places instead of my laptop. I think a 10-inch tablet could be more comfortable to read, but I love the Full-HD screen and pocketability of the 2nd-gen N7. I find it amazing that 3 years later and no other Android tablet has a screen resolution that's comparable.
- rahoulb 10y ago
  iPad Pro using MOSH into a Linux box running tmux and vim. A great development environment for me - 11 hour battery life, built in LTE connection, huge screen that I can layout how I want, easy to carry around with me and I can use it for drawing and sketching UI concepts for my clients before I start on any work. I don't use it 100% of the time (I also have a desktop machine) but it works extremely well and offers me things that a laptop cannot. EDIT: It also doesn't have an Escape key - but I use Ctrl-C in VIM as I don't have to move from the home position then
- oceanswave 10y ago
  Funny you mention that: http://praeclarum.org/post/147003028753/continuous-c-and-f-ide-for-the-ipad http://praeclarum.org/post/147003028753/continuous-c-and-f-i...
rimantas 10y ago
Apple is not saying anything like this, just a bunch of whiners twisting things. Just like they did after any Mac upgrade.
- HNSucksAss 10y ago
  WRONG. The removal of a dozen keys from an already gimped keyboard is decidedly anti-developer. Oh, but if you opt for the one remaining Apple laptop with an almost-full keyboard, guess what? Apple will PUNISH you by deleting one of the USB/Thunderbolt ports. Yeah: Power users and developers, the ones most likely to use I/O ports and function keys, get pettily PUNISHED when they opt for one or the other. And you can shove your "whining" canard and your judgmental "upgrade" term, because anyone who takes computers seriously will easily break down that strawman. This "touch strip" is an embarrassing gimmick that doesn't hold up to common sense, much less developers' needs. As a user, we're suddenly supposed to embrace this non-palpable display strip on the keyboard, compulsively glancing down at it every few seconds to see if some goodies have popped up based on the caprices of the app we're using or the window we happened to click on? And as developers, we're supposed to write extra code to support this bullshit that only exists on SOME keyboards and ONE platform that has 5% market share? And all this on glued-together computers with soldered-in RAM, proprietary drive interfaces, stupid glossy screens with no matte option... yeah, this "whining" is well-founded in FACT and self respect. Try getting some of both.
- erelde 10y ago
  I don't know if it's just the usual whining of people complaining about new things. From the exterior (I'm too young and the only Mac I've ever used was the Macintosh Plus -bragging, with 4Mo of RAM- while I was a child), it really seems like Apple has dropped the ball for professionals, both developers and graphics people. There are now equally well designed PCs (laptops and desktops) from other manufacturers, Windows has a lot of support, if you want to use Linux, the kernel now supports a wide range of hardware. In the meantime, Apple doesn't have a good desktop offering, and their laptops seem gimmicky to me while not offering a performance edge over their competitors. A few months ago I thought about buying a (my first) Macbook and waited for their announcement, now I'm looking the other way. And around me, I'm the guy people go to ask when they have a computer related purchase to make.
madeofpalk 10y ago
If we're comparing Apples-to-Apples (seriously, pun not (originally) intended), Apple continues to rev on the XCode IDE every year adding more features to it. Most recently, they added a nifty visual memory debugger[1] and have taken another stab at device & certificate provisioning. [1]: http://useyourloaf.com/blog/xcode-visual-memory-debugger/ http://useyourloaf.com/blog/xcode-visual-memory-debugger/
- partycoder 10y ago
  does it support reverse debugging yet?
  - Clane 10y ago
    What I want to know as somebody trying to learn C/C++, is Xcode good for somebody who is wanting to try their hand at bare metal stuff? I always hear how bad it is outside of app dev. but can it help me be productive compared to CLI environment or just using a text editor with nifty add-ons?
    - jamesshorten 10y ago
      I have used both Xcode and Text editor & Terminal for C/C++ development. In my opinion both work equally well but I would advise you to use the Text editor and Terminal method because it means you need to learn how things like build systems, LLDB, Valgrind and more work. This knowledge is essential when the IDE does something Unexpected and you need to fix it.
    - cageface 10y ago
      I've written a lot of C++ code in Xcode. Xcode is a pretty poor IDE in general but it works reasonably well for C++. IMO things like autocomplete and a graphical debugger are enough of a productivity boost that I wouldn't want to use a plain editor.
      - 72deluxe 10y ago
        Yes, and the ability to find call references (who is calling this function, where is it used) from the drop-down menu is really helpful. I miss the ease of access to that sort of functionality in Visual Studio.
ynak 10y ago
yeah, recent Microsoft attitude for development tools is excellent. They opensourced a lot of codes, released Visual Studio Code,and integrated Windows with bash shell. I assume Apple is becoming less dev-oriented company, seeing they are making light of pro tools like MacPro and function keys.
- tracker1 10y ago
  While I agree... MS DevDiv must be an interesting place to be right now. The Linux subsystem for Windows sucks so bad, and the windows containers for docker feels half baked as well... Use the msys bash that comes with git instead. That said, I'm happy to see this and do hope to see a similar effort for Linux as many Mac users are starting to move on. This may well be an indication that the next VS on Windows may well be based on the MD base... Should they want to unify that. I've been very happy with VS Code for my needs all the same. Can't recommend it enough for js/Node.
ubernostrum 10y ago
Meanwhile, a "pro" user who's actually used the new Macbook Pro weighs in: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/thomas-grove-carter/one-professionals-look-at_b_12894856.html http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/thomas-grove-carter/one-prof... Spoiler alert: he doesn't agree with the assessment of HN users who haven't actually used it.
- mobiuscog 10y ago
  Except he's coming at it with a strong bias: No matter what you think the specs say, the fact is the software and hardware are so well integrated it tears strips off "superior spec'd" Windows counterparts in the real world. This has always been true of Macs. Having used both lines of machines for many years, if I want raw power and 'specs' I use the PC.
  - Kipters 10y ago
    I've also had the feeling he was strongly biased throughout the whole article
    - static_noise 10y ago
      If you still feel the bias, you're not _really_ an Apple customer.
      - jasonm23 10y ago
        I think you conflated customers with disciples
  - hvidgaard 10y ago
    His argument falls short the second you want to use non optimized software - he even touches upon this, but "I understand people need to use programs from other developers, but at some point they need to play catch up". This is rather difficult to take seriously. So you can efficiently do what Apple say you can do, but nothing else? That might work in his line of work, but it doesn't for the rest of the world.
trymas 10y ago
I feel so strange about this. On one hand microsoft stepped up their attention to individual professionals (e.g. designers, developers, etc., more or less like Apple 15-20 years ago) and apple seems to forget them. On the other hand, microsoft is infamous for privacy, for their forced upgrades, their updates, whereas apple emphasizes privacy. I like macbooks as laptops, but on software front apple seems to rest on their laurels and developers seem to use macbooks, either because unix or there's more money in App store than elsewhere.
FlyingSnake 10y ago
> If you are a pro mainly using the Mac for professional work... This is extremely dishonest assessment that only 'Developers' do professional work. Mac is used by Engineers, CAD/CAM, designers, illustrators, artists, musicians, etc and to reduce it only to developers is disingenuous. I for one is happy with the new Mac and there are several people who've found it great for 'pro' use.
- marmaduke 10y ago
  The mac users in science are also legion
  - stinos 10y ago
    Sometimes for reasons beyond my understanding: I've seen many people bent over a 15" MB playing with MRI images in matlab/spm/... It's hard imagining something with worse posture, less ergonomics and less efficient.
    - marmaduke 10y ago
      mac has word, osirix and freesurfer etc but I agree about posture
      - stinos 10y ago
        Not sure why you get downvoted for what is imo an ok reply? Only Osirix is strictly OSX and even though I haven't used it I'm pretty sure there are viable linux/windows alternatives for that and the other software you mention. Anyway, next time I see someone in a situation as I pictured I'll just ask why they chose the Macbook
        marmaduke 10y ago
        Osirix is the only FDA approved software of its kind (MRI, 3D reconstruction, database), as far as I know. Mac is the only platform where you can run freesurfer and word natively. I didn't notice the downvotes..
pjmlp 10y ago
For those of us that only care about XCode and Swift/Objective-C frameworks, Apple is doing just fine.
- matt4077 10y ago
  And those of us heavily dependent on UNIX tools just install homebrew and are fine as well. It's actually better than it ever was. I have no idea what these self-appointed "pros" actually do. Their work seems to involve a awful lot of swapping hardware components, attaching peripherals in a jurisdiction that frowns upon adapters, and pressing ESC.
edpichler 10y ago
I think Microsoft is saying that they want the market, they want their products running on all platforms, and not that "Mac OS is a serious platform".
draw_down 10y ago
Um, Apple also makes an IDE.
kensign 10y ago
That's quite an exaggerated presumption. Office for mac has been around for years. VSC will more than likely give sublime a run for its money as they are very similar on the Mac platform. Just because microsoft ports VS, it doesn't reveal anything other than giving developers that prefer Macs another IDE choice. You can get a MBP without function keys and just because Apple has decided evolve their approach to the keyboard, it doesn't mean anything beyond that. It's very interesting that this has become such a hot topic in the dev community. Apple isn't abandoning devs, pure and simple.
- conception 10y ago
  Office for Macis also a shadow of the windows version. Excel is still single threaded!!! Madness.
herge 10y ago
Macbook pros haven't been for 'pros' for at least 4 years: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/11/08/reddit-mbps http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/11/08/reddit-mbps
grandalf 10y ago
Do most developers really need anything with a CPU more powerful than an iPhone 5 to build apps or web pages? In most cases if they do they're doing it wrong.
- SonicSoul 10y ago
  yes. it's not needed if you're building a JavaScript app with Sublime text. But compiled environments such as .Net take a lot of cpu and memory. It's not uncommon to have 2-4 visual studios open which can take up 10 gigs of ram. Couple that up with continuous build/unit test frameworks and 5-10 VS add-ons and you need a powerful machine to make it responsive
  - grandalf 10y ago
    I'd argue that some of what you describe should probably be an anti-pattern, or is at least a byproduct of very fast, cheap CPU power. Emacs has worked for years on much lower-end hardware and has been used to build some very elaborate systems. These days a typical developer laptop is 5x more powerful than the system the code will be used on (mobile device, virtual server, etc.)
    - SonicSoul 10y ago
      I do not disagree with anything you said. The only reason for powerful developer workstations is that each second of delay is compounded when you use your machine as a tool. I do use lightweight tools but Visual Studio is still extremely powerful and not easily replaceable (I've been using it every day for past 10 years). Visual Studio is NOT fast. Especially when you add ReSharper into the mix. You could go on arguing about what is the best IDE and if ReSharper is necessary. The fact is that lots of people still use it and a powerful machine is needed today to make those responsive
- deleted 10y ago
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by SiVal 10y ago

cm2187 10y ago

People aren't going to do development on a tablet or a smartphone anytime soon.

rimantas 10y ago
While I agree with you there is that thing for trying Swift on iPad.
- Kyro38 10y ago
  It's a toy for learning, nothing more.
  - adav 10y ago
    It could be an MVP.
    - Cthulhu_ 10y ago
      It is, for learning basic Swift. For developing you want to use a setup that allows you to handle thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lines of code. A single-process touch interface isn't that, I think.
intoverflow2 10y ago
Don't speak too soon. "Why would you buy a PC anymore?" - Tim Cook on the iPad Pro launch. Don't be surprised if XCode for iPad Pro is a thing soon. It's becoming clear he sees iPads as the future of computing, it's all he uses personally and developing it's own apps is one of the last things it actually can't do.
- simooooo 10y ago
  and only $150 for their external keyboard with touchbar!
- cm2187 10y ago
  You suggest you will develop any serious software without access to a file system? And on a 10 inch screen? Also developers like to you use their own tools. That doesn't fit well with the "you will do as you are told" approach of Apple.
sangnoir 10y ago
> People aren't going to do development on a tablet or a smartphone anytime soon. My set up proves you wrong: Nexus 7, bluetooth keyboard, a Debian chroot with git, vim, python and apt. I take that with me to sketchy places instead of my laptop. I think a 10-inch tablet could be more comfortable to read, but I love the Full-HD screen and pocketability of the 2nd-gen N7. I find it amazing that 3 years later and no other Android tablet has a screen resolution that's comparable.
rahoulb 10y ago
iPad Pro using MOSH into a Linux box running tmux and vim. A great development environment for me - 11 hour battery life, built in LTE connection, huge screen that I can layout how I want, easy to carry around with me and I can use it for drawing and sketching UI concepts for my clients before I start on any work. I don't use it 100% of the time (I also have a desktop machine) but it works extremely well and offers me things that a laptop cannot. EDIT: It also doesn't have an Escape key - but I use Ctrl-C in VIM as I don't have to move from the home position then
oceanswave 10y ago
Funny you mention that: http://praeclarum.org/post/147003028753/continuous-c-and-f-ide-for-the-ipad http://praeclarum.org/post/147003028753/continuous-c-and-f-i...

rimantas 10y ago

Apple is not saying anything like this, just a bunch of whiners twisting things. Just like they did after any Mac upgrade.

HNSucksAss 10y ago
WRONG. The removal of a dozen keys from an already gimped keyboard is decidedly anti-developer. Oh, but if you opt for the one remaining Apple laptop with an almost-full keyboard, guess what? Apple will PUNISH you by deleting one of the USB/Thunderbolt ports. Yeah: Power users and developers, the ones most likely to use I/O ports and function keys, get pettily PUNISHED when they opt for one or the other. And you can shove your "whining" canard and your judgmental "upgrade" term, because anyone who takes computers seriously will easily break down that strawman. This "touch strip" is an embarrassing gimmick that doesn't hold up to common sense, much less developers' needs. As a user, we're suddenly supposed to embrace this non-palpable display strip on the keyboard, compulsively glancing down at it every few seconds to see if some goodies have popped up based on the caprices of the app we're using or the window we happened to click on? And as developers, we're supposed to write extra code to support this bullshit that only exists on SOME keyboards and ONE platform that has 5% market share? And all this on glued-together computers with soldered-in RAM, proprietary drive interfaces, stupid glossy screens with no matte option... yeah, this "whining" is well-founded in FACT and self respect. Try getting some of both.
erelde 10y ago
I don't know if it's just the usual whining of people complaining about new things. From the exterior (I'm too young and the only Mac I've ever used was the Macintosh Plus -bragging, with 4Mo of RAM- while I was a child), it really seems like Apple has dropped the ball for professionals, both developers and graphics people. There are now equally well designed PCs (laptops and desktops) from other manufacturers, Windows has a lot of support, if you want to use Linux, the kernel now supports a wide range of hardware. In the meantime, Apple doesn't have a good desktop offering, and their laptops seem gimmicky to me while not offering a performance edge over their competitors. A few months ago I thought about buying a (my first) Macbook and waited for their announcement, now I'm looking the other way. And around me, I'm the guy people go to ask when they have a computer related purchase to make.

madeofpalk 10y ago

If we're comparing Apples-to-Apples (seriously, pun not (originally) intended), Apple continues to rev on the XCode IDE every year adding more features to it. Most recently, they added a nifty visual memory debugger[1] and have taken another stab at device & certificate provisioning. [1]: http://useyourloaf.com/blog/xcode-visual-memory-debugger/ http://useyourloaf.com/blog/xcode-visual-memory-debugger/

partycoder 10y ago
does it support reverse debugging yet?
- Clane 10y ago
  What I want to know as somebody trying to learn C/C++, is Xcode good for somebody who is wanting to try their hand at bare metal stuff? I always hear how bad it is outside of app dev. but can it help me be productive compared to CLI environment or just using a text editor with nifty add-ons?
  - jamesshorten 10y ago
    I have used both Xcode and Text editor & Terminal for C/C++ development. In my opinion both work equally well but I would advise you to use the Text editor and Terminal method because it means you need to learn how things like build systems, LLDB, Valgrind and more work. This knowledge is essential when the IDE does something Unexpected and you need to fix it.
  - cageface 10y ago
    I've written a lot of C++ code in Xcode. Xcode is a pretty poor IDE in general but it works reasonably well for C++. IMO things like autocomplete and a graphical debugger are enough of a productivity boost that I wouldn't want to use a plain editor.
    - 72deluxe 10y ago
      Yes, and the ability to find call references (who is calling this function, where is it used) from the drop-down menu is really helpful. I miss the ease of access to that sort of functionality in Visual Studio.

ynak 10y ago

yeah, recent Microsoft attitude for development tools is excellent. They opensourced a lot of codes, released Visual Studio Code,and integrated Windows with bash shell. I assume Apple is becoming less dev-oriented company, seeing they are making light of pro tools like MacPro and function keys.

tracker1 10y ago
While I agree... MS DevDiv must be an interesting place to be right now. The Linux subsystem for Windows sucks so bad, and the windows containers for docker feels half baked as well... Use the msys bash that comes with git instead. That said, I'm happy to see this and do hope to see a similar effort for Linux as many Mac users are starting to move on. This may well be an indication that the next VS on Windows may well be based on the MD base... Should they want to unify that. I've been very happy with VS Code for my needs all the same. Can't recommend it enough for js/Node.

ubernostrum 10y ago

Meanwhile, a "pro" user who's actually used the new Macbook Pro weighs in: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/thomas-grove-carter/one-professionals-look-at_b_12894856.html http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/thomas-grove-carter/one-prof... Spoiler alert: he doesn't agree with the assessment of HN users who haven't actually used it.

mobiuscog 10y ago
Except he's coming at it with a strong bias: No matter what you think the specs say, the fact is the software and hardware are so well integrated it tears strips off "superior spec'd" Windows counterparts in the real world. This has always been true of Macs. Having used both lines of machines for many years, if I want raw power and 'specs' I use the PC.
- Kipters 10y ago
  I've also had the feeling he was strongly biased throughout the whole article
  - static_noise 10y ago
    If you still feel the bias, you're not _really_ an Apple customer.
    - jasonm23 10y ago
      I think you conflated customers with disciples
- hvidgaard 10y ago
  His argument falls short the second you want to use non optimized software - he even touches upon this, but "I understand people need to use programs from other developers, but at some point they need to play catch up". This is rather difficult to take seriously. So you can efficiently do what Apple say you can do, but nothing else? That might work in his line of work, but it doesn't for the rest of the world.

trymas 10y ago

I feel so strange about this. On one hand microsoft stepped up their attention to individual professionals (e.g. designers, developers, etc., more or less like Apple 15-20 years ago) and apple seems to forget them. On the other hand, microsoft is infamous for privacy, for their forced upgrades, their updates, whereas apple emphasizes privacy. I like macbooks as laptops, but on software front apple seems to rest on their laurels and developers seem to use macbooks, either because unix or there's more money in App store than elsewhere.

FlyingSnake 10y ago

> If you are a pro mainly using the Mac for professional work... This is extremely dishonest assessment that only 'Developers' do professional work. Mac is used by Engineers, CAD/CAM, designers, illustrators, artists, musicians, etc and to reduce it only to developers is disingenuous. I for one is happy with the new Mac and there are several people who've found it great for 'pro' use.

marmaduke 10y ago
The mac users in science are also legion
- stinos 10y ago
  Sometimes for reasons beyond my understanding: I've seen many people bent over a 15" MB playing with MRI images in matlab/spm/... It's hard imagining something with worse posture, less ergonomics and less efficient.
  - marmaduke 10y ago
    mac has word, osirix and freesurfer etc but I agree about posture
    - stinos 10y ago
      Not sure why you get downvoted for what is imo an ok reply? Only Osirix is strictly OSX and even though I haven't used it I'm pretty sure there are viable linux/windows alternatives for that and the other software you mention. Anyway, next time I see someone in a situation as I pictured I'll just ask why they chose the Macbook
      - marmaduke 10y ago
        Osirix is the only FDA approved software of its kind (MRI, 3D reconstruction, database), as far as I know. Mac is the only platform where you can run freesurfer and word natively. I didn't notice the downvotes..

pjmlp 10y ago

For those of us that only care about XCode and Swift/Objective-C frameworks, Apple is doing just fine.

matt4077 10y ago
And those of us heavily dependent on UNIX tools just install homebrew and are fine as well. It's actually better than it ever was. I have no idea what these self-appointed "pros" actually do. Their work seems to involve a awful lot of swapping hardware components, attaching peripherals in a jurisdiction that frowns upon adapters, and pressing ESC.

edpichler 10y ago

I think Microsoft is saying that they want the market, they want their products running on all platforms, and not that "Mac OS is a serious platform".

draw_down 10y ago

Um, Apple also makes an IDE.

kensign 10y ago

That's quite an exaggerated presumption. Office for mac has been around for years. VSC will more than likely give sublime a run for its money as they are very similar on the Mac platform. Just because microsoft ports VS, it doesn't reveal anything other than giving developers that prefer Macs another IDE choice. You can get a MBP without function keys and just because Apple has decided evolve their approach to the keyboard, it doesn't mean anything beyond that. It's very interesting that this has become such a hot topic in the dev community. Apple isn't abandoning devs, pure and simple.

conception 10y ago
Office for Macis also a shadow of the windows version. Excel is still single threaded!!! Madness.

herge 10y ago

Macbook pros haven't been for 'pros' for at least 4 years: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/11/08/reddit-mbps http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/11/08/reddit-mbps

grandalf 10y ago

Do most developers really need anything with a CPU more powerful than an iPhone 5 to build apps or web pages? In most cases if they do they're doing it wrong.

SonicSoul 10y ago
yes. it's not needed if you're building a JavaScript app with Sublime text. But compiled environments such as .Net take a lot of cpu and memory. It's not uncommon to have 2-4 visual studios open which can take up 10 gigs of ram. Couple that up with continuous build/unit test frameworks and 5-10 VS add-ons and you need a powerful machine to make it responsive
- grandalf 10y ago
  I'd argue that some of what you describe should probably be an anti-pattern, or is at least a byproduct of very fast, cheap CPU power. Emacs has worked for years on much lower-end hardware and has been used to build some very elaborate systems. These days a typical developer laptop is 5x more powerful than the system the code will be used on (mobile device, virtual server, etc.)
  - SonicSoul 10y ago
    I do not disagree with anything you said. The only reason for powerful developer workstations is that each second of delay is compounded when you use your machine as a tool. I do use lightweight tools but Visual Studio is still extremely powerful and not easily replaceable (I've been using it every day for past 10 years). Visual Studio is NOT fast. Especially when you add ReSharper into the mix. You could go on arguing about what is the best IDE and if ReSharper is necessary. The fact is that lots of people still use it and a powerful machine is needed today to make those responsive
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