5 ms·

I'm not a foreign policy politician and never plan to be, but I wonder if the US has been engaging in conversations with China in the wrong way on this subject.

by lunaru 10y ago

I'm not a foreign policy politician and never plan to be, but I wonder if the US has been engaging in conversations with China in the wrong way on this subject. My guess is that we've been approaching this from a moral standpoint (human rights, freedom of speech, etc) but those arguments have never budged China. I can't think of one issue where we've been able to convince them of policy from a "rights" or "morals" perspective. In this regard, they'll go at their own pace. In the meantime, one of the US's strongest industries (software/internet) stands to lose a ton of competitive ground with the rising middle class in China consuming their own domestic version of the internet. It's already created behemoths like Alibaba and Tencent with genuine innovation (e.g. WeChat Payments). Perhaps if we removed the moral arguments and simply attempted a trade agreement (even if somewhat compromised) we'd get some ground on getting US internet businesses into China. That'll probably have a greater effect on openness in the long run than sitting from an exiled position lobbing moral arguments over the Great Firewall.

CodeMage 10y ago
Maybe it's just me, but I find that there's a strong parallel between that argument and the reason why many people voted for Trump. And I could try to give you my own views on why that might be morally questionable, but Joe Scalzi already did that way better than I could ever hope to: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-...
TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
So on the one hand we have the privacy oriented people in the West saying "Don't use Facebook, Google, Twitter, because they're tracking you, eroding your privacy, and have a mains-pressure tap running off to the NSA". And on the other hand we are criticising China for blocking these same services. This leads in to other avenues of discussion about protectionist economic policy Chinese internet services must store their data in China, vs. a general displeasure in foreign ownership of residential property in the West, and I feel under-qualified to write about, and too under-educated to express in a coherent fashion.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  Who is saying don't use facebook et al and who is saying china shouldn't block the same services? It wouldn't surprise me if they were different people with different agendas. I for one hate the blocking, it makes using the internet in china as an expat quite horrible, often praying that your vpn works today and often being disappointed.
  - ttflee 10y ago
    Ironically, I have to setup an SSH socks proxy through a third region to use Google (or DuckDuckGo but not Facebook, sorry), to get through the blocking and kinda protect my privacy. Sounds like a two-birds-with-one-stone solution? Frankly once you pass the stage of the trouble that you get mad to find how to specify a socks proxy in your most frequently used apps and that you have to always open a window of Firefox which override systemwide proxy settings but kills your laptop battery, you'll just reach inner peace and get used to it.
    - Jack000 10y ago
      just curious which host do you use for the proxy? im on linode fremont and its extremely slow
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    It's a good point. I did try to exempt myself from being coherent.
joe_the_user 10y ago
My guess is that we've been approaching this from a moral standpoint (human rights, freedom of speech, etc) but those arguments have never budged China. If you are ignorant on the subject, why not learn before randomly speculating? I have only read moderately on the subject of China but I am certain the Chinese are aware of the argument that free speech offers economic benefits and many people have made that argument in fact. The Chinese government isn't interested in moral appeals but it is unlikely they're engaging these policies just to spite us for being moralistic. There's no reason to drop a moral approach since does put some pressure on China's image in the world. The Chinese have explicitly decided that security trumps economic opportunity and moreover they've learned that security can protect the interests of Chinese Internet firms.
- lunaru 10y ago
  Which part am I ignorant about? The guess on our approach? I'm not in the closed doors conversations between our foreign policy leaders and China's and neither is anyone else, so we can only guess that's how we've been approaching it. As for the part about whether moral arguments have ever swayed China -- there's no ignorance there. They set their policies independently of moral lobbying. That's clear to everyone. Even now with the shift in China's policy on climate change (for example), that didn't come from outside pressure but rather internal pressure from the Chinese population. My point is that China is more likely to engage in conversation about selectively opening internet access to the West on economic terms rather than moral terms.
user5994461 10y ago
> My guess is that we've been approaching this from a moral standpoint (human rights, freedom of speech, etc) but those arguments have never budged China No offense but the USA is not in a position to give moral lessons ^^ It might be hard to imagine for an American but the rest of the world doesn't give a damn about your country.
- scrollaway 10y ago
  As a proud member of the rest of the world, please don't speak on my behalf. I may live in Europe but what happens in the US very much concerns and affects me, and many others like me.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  There is no such thing as a moral high ground. China is completely free to become a hermit kingdom again if they want, with their own little Internet surrounded by worldwide services (Facebook, google) in countries as poor and undeveloped as Myanmar and Cambodia. Perhaps they could join with DPRK and create a two country "extra harmonious" internet. They could totally do that, but I don't get why we leave our markets so open to the Chinese when they've closed theirs so much to us. The reason China doesn't "officially" block Facebook (call china telecom and ask, they won't admit it) is because they don't want to look closed to the WTO, so we play this game of semantics and the US leadership let's them get away with it. Screw that, let them become North Korea if they want, but we don't have to keep our door open in the meantime and cater to their hypocracy.
- peferron 10y ago
  The world absolutely gives a damn about the USA, which is evident in how their presidential election just made headlines in almost every country.
Ajedi32 10y ago
While I agree that approaching this problem from the perspective of a trade agreement would be more effective in allowing western software companies to compete within China, on the other hand I'm not thrilled about what kind of moral compromises would likely be required on our end for such an agreement. At the very least I imagine companies would be forced to cooperate with the Chinese government in suppressing free speech and limiting access to dissenting information within China. At worst they'd be pressured into exposing dissidents and actively assisting the government in creating and maintaining an authoritarian police state.

by lunaru 10y ago

CodeMage 10y ago

Maybe it's just me, but I find that there's a strong parallel between that argument and the reason why many people voted for Trump. And I could try to give you my own views on why that might be morally questionable, but Joe Scalzi already did that way better than I could ever hope to: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-...

TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago

So on the one hand we have the privacy oriented people in the West saying "Don't use Facebook, Google, Twitter, because they're tracking you, eroding your privacy, and have a mains-pressure tap running off to the NSA". And on the other hand we are criticising China for blocking these same services. This leads in to other avenues of discussion about protectionist economic policy Chinese internet services must store their data in China, vs. a general displeasure in foreign ownership of residential property in the West, and I feel under-qualified to write about, and too under-educated to express in a coherent fashion.

seanmcdirmid 10y ago
Who is saying don't use facebook et al and who is saying china shouldn't block the same services? It wouldn't surprise me if they were different people with different agendas. I for one hate the blocking, it makes using the internet in china as an expat quite horrible, often praying that your vpn works today and often being disappointed.
- ttflee 10y ago
  Ironically, I have to setup an SSH socks proxy through a third region to use Google (or DuckDuckGo but not Facebook, sorry), to get through the blocking and kinda protect my privacy. Sounds like a two-birds-with-one-stone solution? Frankly once you pass the stage of the trouble that you get mad to find how to specify a socks proxy in your most frequently used apps and that you have to always open a window of Firefox which override systemwide proxy settings but kills your laptop battery, you'll just reach inner peace and get used to it.
  - Jack000 10y ago
    just curious which host do you use for the proxy? im on linode fremont and its extremely slow
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
  It's a good point. I did try to exempt myself from being coherent.

joe_the_user 10y ago

My guess is that we've been approaching this from a moral standpoint (human rights, freedom of speech, etc) but those arguments have never budged China. If you are ignorant on the subject, why not learn before randomly speculating? I have only read moderately on the subject of China but I am certain the Chinese are aware of the argument that free speech offers economic benefits and many people have made that argument in fact. The Chinese government isn't interested in moral appeals but it is unlikely they're engaging these policies just to spite us for being moralistic. There's no reason to drop a moral approach since does put some pressure on China's image in the world. The Chinese have explicitly decided that security trumps economic opportunity and moreover they've learned that security can protect the interests of Chinese Internet firms.

lunaru 10y ago
Which part am I ignorant about? The guess on our approach? I'm not in the closed doors conversations between our foreign policy leaders and China's and neither is anyone else, so we can only guess that's how we've been approaching it. As for the part about whether moral arguments have ever swayed China -- there's no ignorance there. They set their policies independently of moral lobbying. That's clear to everyone. Even now with the shift in China's policy on climate change (for example), that didn't come from outside pressure but rather internal pressure from the Chinese population. My point is that China is more likely to engage in conversation about selectively opening internet access to the West on economic terms rather than moral terms.

user5994461 10y ago

> My guess is that we've been approaching this from a moral standpoint (human rights, freedom of speech, etc) but those arguments have never budged China No offense but the USA is not in a position to give moral lessons ^^ It might be hard to imagine for an American but the rest of the world doesn't give a damn about your country.

scrollaway 10y ago
As a proud member of the rest of the world, please don't speak on my behalf. I may live in Europe but what happens in the US very much concerns and affects me, and many others like me.
seanmcdirmid 10y ago
There is no such thing as a moral high ground. China is completely free to become a hermit kingdom again if they want, with their own little Internet surrounded by worldwide services (Facebook, google) in countries as poor and undeveloped as Myanmar and Cambodia. Perhaps they could join with DPRK and create a two country "extra harmonious" internet. They could totally do that, but I don't get why we leave our markets so open to the Chinese when they've closed theirs so much to us. The reason China doesn't "officially" block Facebook (call china telecom and ask, they won't admit it) is because they don't want to look closed to the WTO, so we play this game of semantics and the US leadership let's them get away with it. Screw that, let them become North Korea if they want, but we don't have to keep our door open in the meantime and cater to their hypocracy.
peferron 10y ago
The world absolutely gives a damn about the USA, which is evident in how their presidential election just made headlines in almost every country.

Ajedi32 10y ago

While I agree that approaching this problem from the perspective of a trade agreement would be more effective in allowing western software companies to compete within China, on the other hand I'm not thrilled about what kind of moral compromises would likely be required on our end for such an agreement. At the very least I imagine companies would be forced to cooperate with the Chinese government in suppressing free speech and limiting access to dissenting information within China. At worst they'd be pressured into exposing dissidents and actively assisting the government in creating and maintaining an authoritarian police state.