4 ms·

Doesn't this show that yes you can do police work in the post crypto age?

by api 10y ago

pmlnr 10y ago
This is not that trivial to answer. In this case, the FBI went against the law by operating these servers - a typical case of "the ends justify the means". Should we allow police work not to play by the rules? That usually doesn't end well.
- runn1ng 10y ago
  I am not sure about the letter of the law, but I think the spirit is clear that the intent matters. And they didn't operate the servers because they wanted to give platform to child porn users, but because they wanted to catch the users.
  - pmlnr 10y ago
    I understand this, but if you let them do it in this case, nothing will stop them from doing the same in other cases. The law applies to anyone: if this content is banned, you aren't allowed to use it as bait either.
  - Arnt 10y ago
    That's called entrapment and is generally illegal, no?
    - admax88q 10y ago
      No, entrapment is when law enforcement induces you to commit an offense you wouldn't otherwise do. If you use a cp site of your own free will without encouragement from law enforcement, then it's not entrapment just because the site was operated by law enforcement.
      - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
        But if the law enforcement weren't running it then there's at least a chance you would have been thwarted and there would be no actus rea, tempting people to commit crimes that without your positive action could have been impossible seems morally wrong to me. Like leaving open bottles of spirits in alcoholic's rooms if there were prohibition.
    - bitJericho 10y ago
      Entrapment is when the police make you do something you wouldn't normally do. For example, if they showed you a popup you didn't want to see and then arrested you for it, that would be entrapment.
    - probablybroken 10y ago
      I think for it to be entrapment, you would have to convince the users to use the site against their normal judgement - rather than them using it of their own free will.
    - archgoon 10y ago
      As others have said, most likely not, as the FBI was not inducing people to visit the website. http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633 http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633
  - FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
    Sure, but as we saw in the Silk Road investigation, this is something that can be co-opted by a less than scrupulous agent. When you exempt certain agencies from the law, they will inevitably abuse that power. In these conditions it was acceptable. However, setting up a CP server as a honeypot crosses the line and blurs the line between stopping and supporting it.
Raphmedia 10y ago
They arrested the stupid users. Pedophiles are not known for being among the brightest. Those people downloaded the Tor browser and blindly started browsing on it. It wouldn't have been so easy to get information on 200 real cyber criminals.
- brianwawok 10y ago
  That sounds a bit like strawman. Do you have a citation that a pedo has less IQ than the average member of society? I think by using Tor that puts them in the top 1% of internet user knowledge, which is against your statement.
  - foobarbecue 10y ago
    Are you getting straw man and ad hominum mixed up? Not that either of those fallacies were used here...
  - elliottcarlson 10y ago
    Just because they are using Tor (either by searching how to hide their tracks, or just because the community for this kind of content in general will gravitate to something like Tor), doesn't really mean they would be in the top 1% - they followed instructions that someone in the top 1% created. Whether that means they have a lower IQ than the average member of society though, that is a whole other thing.
    - brianwawok 10y ago
      I do not think anyone outside the top 1% could even follow the directions to download and use tor. You are vastly overestimating the compute power of the average person.
      - Raphmedia 10y ago
        I mean, it's a simple link to a simple installer. Click on this and you will be ready to go: https://www.torproject.org/dist/torbrowser/6.0.5/torbrowser-install-6.0.5_en-US.exe https://www.torproject.org/dist/torbrowser/6.0.5/torbrowser-...
revelation 10y ago
The FBI used a Tor Browser Exploit instead of disclosing it responsibly. If this is police work in the post crypto are, then we are all going to be a lot less secure.

Doesn't this show that yes you can do police work in the post crypto age?

by api 10y ago

Doesn't this show that yes you can do police work in the post crypto age?

pmlnr 10y ago

This is not that trivial to answer. In this case, the FBI went against the law by operating these servers - a typical case of "the ends justify the means". Should we allow police work not to play by the rules? That usually doesn't end well.

runn1ng 10y ago
I am not sure about the letter of the law, but I think the spirit is clear that the intent matters. And they didn't operate the servers because they wanted to give platform to child porn users, but because they wanted to catch the users.
- pmlnr 10y ago
  I understand this, but if you let them do it in this case, nothing will stop them from doing the same in other cases. The law applies to anyone: if this content is banned, you aren't allowed to use it as bait either.
- Arnt 10y ago
  That's called entrapment and is generally illegal, no?
  - admax88q 10y ago
    No, entrapment is when law enforcement induces you to commit an offense you wouldn't otherwise do. If you use a cp site of your own free will without encouragement from law enforcement, then it's not entrapment just because the site was operated by law enforcement.
    - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
      But if the law enforcement weren't running it then there's at least a chance you would have been thwarted and there would be no actus rea, tempting people to commit crimes that without your positive action could have been impossible seems morally wrong to me. Like leaving open bottles of spirits in alcoholic's rooms if there were prohibition.
  - bitJericho 10y ago
    Entrapment is when the police make you do something you wouldn't normally do. For example, if they showed you a popup you didn't want to see and then arrested you for it, that would be entrapment.
  - probablybroken 10y ago
    I think for it to be entrapment, you would have to convince the users to use the site against their normal judgement - rather than them using it of their own free will.
  - archgoon 10y ago
    As others have said, most likely not, as the FBI was not inducing people to visit the website. http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633 http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
  Sure, but as we saw in the Silk Road investigation, this is something that can be co-opted by a less than scrupulous agent. When you exempt certain agencies from the law, they will inevitably abuse that power. In these conditions it was acceptable. However, setting up a CP server as a honeypot crosses the line and blurs the line between stopping and supporting it.

Raphmedia 10y ago

They arrested the stupid users. Pedophiles are not known for being among the brightest. Those people downloaded the Tor browser and blindly started browsing on it. It wouldn't have been so easy to get information on 200 real cyber criminals.

brianwawok 10y ago
That sounds a bit like strawman. Do you have a citation that a pedo has less IQ than the average member of society? I think by using Tor that puts them in the top 1% of internet user knowledge, which is against your statement.
- foobarbecue 10y ago
  Are you getting straw man and ad hominum mixed up? Not that either of those fallacies were used here...
- elliottcarlson 10y ago
  Just because they are using Tor (either by searching how to hide their tracks, or just because the community for this kind of content in general will gravitate to something like Tor), doesn't really mean they would be in the top 1% - they followed instructions that someone in the top 1% created. Whether that means they have a lower IQ than the average member of society though, that is a whole other thing.
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    I do not think anyone outside the top 1% could even follow the directions to download and use tor. You are vastly overestimating the compute power of the average person.
    - Raphmedia 10y ago
      I mean, it's a simple link to a simple installer. Click on this and you will be ready to go: https://www.torproject.org/dist/torbrowser/6.0.5/torbrowser-install-6.0.5_en-US.exe https://www.torproject.org/dist/torbrowser/6.0.5/torbrowser-...

revelation 10y ago

The FBI used a Tor Browser Exploit instead of disclosing it responsibly. If this is police work in the post crypto are, then we are all going to be a lot less secure.