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Some highlights: Drivers for agencies contracted by the internet giant told an undercover reporter they were expected to deliver up to 200 parcels a day.

by 0xmohit 10y ago

Some highlights: Drivers for agencies contracted by the internet giant told an undercover reporter they were expected to deliver up to 200 parcels a day. Amazon Logistics requires agency drivers to be self-employed, and therefore not entitled to the minimum wage or employment rights like sick pay or holiday pay. Tonia Novitz, professor of labour law at Bristol University, said in her opinion drivers contracted by AHC should not be classed as self-employed, because they do not determine their own routes, days of work or rest periods. In a statement Amazon said: "As independent contractors of our delivery providers, drivers deliver at their own pace, take breaks at their discretion, and are able to choose the suggestion route or develop their own." It seems so easy to get away with anything.

moyta 10y ago
When there is no serious labor movement, and enforcement of labor laws is weak, employers can do practically anything they want.
- tn13 10y ago
  That is load of BS. The driver can always resign and join something else. A lot of coders work more than 8 hours a day big deal.
  - ajmurmann 10y ago
    If a coder falls asleep at the keyboard nobody else gets harmed in the vast majority of cases. Coders also have a much wider range of jobs to pick from.
  - enraged_camel 10y ago
    I'm sorry but just because someone can resign and get another job doesn't mean it's OK to abuse the shit out of them. Furthermore, you're severely overestimating the mobility of this particular class of workers. For a lot of people, finding another job (or heck, just a job) is not easy.
    - moyta 10y ago
      Exactly, despite how mobile American workers are, there is a huge cost & risk associated with changing jobs, which gives the employer the upper hand when negotiating with current employees.
  - moyta 10y ago
    How is it a load of BS, have you gone and talked to employees at Walmart, Target, Amazon and other major employers? Most feel they have no choice to comply, and if you get even a bit outside the cities on the east or west coast they are right. Where is a 50 year old in rural Wisconsin going to find work? Who is there with a job? In many areas, there aren't a plethora of jobs, and changing jobs when living paycheck to paycheck is a massive risk, you could easily lose the roof over your head. In reference to "coders", yes, a lot of skilled & talented developers give away their time to the companies they are employed by, and derive no significant benefit from it. Employers are in a position of power in many of those relationships, just as you get a job offer is the time at which the playing field is the closest to being level in that industry.
    - tn13 10y ago
      > In many areas, there aren't a plethora of jobs, and changing jobs when living paycheck to paycheck is a massive risk, you could easily lose the roof over your head. And that is precisely they should thank for the job they have in first place. Being entitled brats would only mean those jobs will go to some asian who is willing to work harder longer and for less.
  - colanderman 10y ago
    In the absence of unions or strong labor law, the lion's share of bargaining power rests with employers. This is a simple consequence of the great difference in resources available to an employer versus an employee. The imbalance remains even when there are several employers to choose from – there are still an order of magnitude more employees. Hence employees get screwed and can do nothing about it. And yes, coders could stand to unionize.
  - bdcravens 10y ago
    Most coders are learning on the job, or on HN, etc. Additionally, we tend to have more income mobility than a delivery driver.
  - abduhl 10y ago
    Coders who make over 85k a year are exempt from overtime rules in the State of California. Your comparison is not valid. Knowing labor laws in the state you work in is very important. I would recommend that everyone understand what makes an employee exempt and if they qualify.
- drieddust 10y ago
  Agreed and code monkeys who think they have options and complete freedom, wait for few more cycles of unchecked consolidation.
drieddust 10y ago
So much in the name of free market goes on. If IT industry will be allowed to progress unchecked, natural monopolies will emerge and it won't be good for consumer,smaller businesses relaying on big boys, and employees. But seems like free market cool aids is being served and drunk happily by the world. On the contrary strong labour Laws and high productivity rate in quite a few European countries is a fact ignored conveniently by power greedy moguls. If left unchecked, they will happily move us back gloomy dawn of Industrial Age when it was ok to force workers to toil to death. Adam smith didn't dream of monopolistic and unregulated market but only one part of his capitalism theory is cherry picked. Unregulated capitalism is a recipe for disaster. Edit: fixed typos.
- drieddust 10y ago
  Edit 2: Don't understand the down votes. Some explanation will help.
  - BipolarElsa 10y ago
    HN does not like talk of ideology. My best guess.
  - noir_lord 10y ago
    Honestly? You are promoting a policy of the traditional left (I say traditional left because the overton window has moved) on a forum that has a significant number (if not outright majority) of right/libertarian leaning people. In theory that shouldn't get you a downvote but it does, much like reddit where you aren't supposed to get downvoted for an on topic post but you do if people disagree with you. There has been a lot of talk recently of self re-enforcing echo chambers, ironically enough on here which is one of them. Bias exists in all communities with no exceptions as far as I can tell. For what it's worth I was arguing that programmers need to either unionise or have a professional chartered body (like Accountants, Lawyers and Engineers) decades ago, the writing has been on the wall for quite a while. Getting programmers to agree what that would look like though would be a massive exercise in "cat hearding". Unions aren't perfect but the abscence of Unions isn't perfect either, few things are and the question has to be "broadly, what is better for most people" and I think that is either really strong labour laws or unionisation. Historically unionisation has occurred most when there is an abscence of strong labour laws (in the US and the UK this was certainly true, the reason a 40 hour work week is considered "standard" is because of unions (and Henry T Ford arguably)).
debacle 10y ago
This is a US company trying to export US dysfunction for their benefit. I imagine this will be shot down.

by 0xmohit 10y ago

moyta 10y ago

When there is no serious labor movement, and enforcement of labor laws is weak, employers can do practically anything they want.

tn13 10y ago
That is load of BS. The driver can always resign and join something else. A lot of coders work more than 8 hours a day big deal.
- ajmurmann 10y ago
  If a coder falls asleep at the keyboard nobody else gets harmed in the vast majority of cases. Coders also have a much wider range of jobs to pick from.
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  I'm sorry but just because someone can resign and get another job doesn't mean it's OK to abuse the shit out of them. Furthermore, you're severely overestimating the mobility of this particular class of workers. For a lot of people, finding another job (or heck, just a job) is not easy.
  - moyta 10y ago
    Exactly, despite how mobile American workers are, there is a huge cost & risk associated with changing jobs, which gives the employer the upper hand when negotiating with current employees.
- moyta 10y ago
  How is it a load of BS, have you gone and talked to employees at Walmart, Target, Amazon and other major employers? Most feel they have no choice to comply, and if you get even a bit outside the cities on the east or west coast they are right. Where is a 50 year old in rural Wisconsin going to find work? Who is there with a job? In many areas, there aren't a plethora of jobs, and changing jobs when living paycheck to paycheck is a massive risk, you could easily lose the roof over your head. In reference to "coders", yes, a lot of skilled & talented developers give away their time to the companies they are employed by, and derive no significant benefit from it. Employers are in a position of power in many of those relationships, just as you get a job offer is the time at which the playing field is the closest to being level in that industry.
  - tn13 10y ago
    > In many areas, there aren't a plethora of jobs, and changing jobs when living paycheck to paycheck is a massive risk, you could easily lose the roof over your head. And that is precisely they should thank for the job they have in first place. Being entitled brats would only mean those jobs will go to some asian who is willing to work harder longer and for less.
- colanderman 10y ago
  In the absence of unions or strong labor law, the lion's share of bargaining power rests with employers. This is a simple consequence of the great difference in resources available to an employer versus an employee. The imbalance remains even when there are several employers to choose from – there are still an order of magnitude more employees. Hence employees get screwed and can do nothing about it. And yes, coders could stand to unionize.
- bdcravens 10y ago
  Most coders are learning on the job, or on HN, etc. Additionally, we tend to have more income mobility than a delivery driver.
- abduhl 10y ago
  Coders who make over 85k a year are exempt from overtime rules in the State of California. Your comparison is not valid. Knowing labor laws in the state you work in is very important. I would recommend that everyone understand what makes an employee exempt and if they qualify.
drieddust 10y ago
Agreed and code monkeys who think they have options and complete freedom, wait for few more cycles of unchecked consolidation.

drieddust 10y ago

So much in the name of free market goes on. If IT industry will be allowed to progress unchecked, natural monopolies will emerge and it won't be good for consumer,smaller businesses relaying on big boys, and employees. But seems like free market cool aids is being served and drunk happily by the world. On the contrary strong labour Laws and high productivity rate in quite a few European countries is a fact ignored conveniently by power greedy moguls. If left unchecked, they will happily move us back gloomy dawn of Industrial Age when it was ok to force workers to toil to death. Adam smith didn't dream of monopolistic and unregulated market but only one part of his capitalism theory is cherry picked. Unregulated capitalism is a recipe for disaster. Edit: fixed typos.

drieddust 10y ago
Edit 2: Don't understand the down votes. Some explanation will help.
- BipolarElsa 10y ago
  HN does not like talk of ideology. My best guess.
- noir_lord 10y ago
  Honestly? You are promoting a policy of the traditional left (I say traditional left because the overton window has moved) on a forum that has a significant number (if not outright majority) of right/libertarian leaning people. In theory that shouldn't get you a downvote but it does, much like reddit where you aren't supposed to get downvoted for an on topic post but you do if people disagree with you. There has been a lot of talk recently of self re-enforcing echo chambers, ironically enough on here which is one of them. Bias exists in all communities with no exceptions as far as I can tell. For what it's worth I was arguing that programmers need to either unionise or have a professional chartered body (like Accountants, Lawyers and Engineers) decades ago, the writing has been on the wall for quite a while. Getting programmers to agree what that would look like though would be a massive exercise in "cat hearding". Unions aren't perfect but the abscence of Unions isn't perfect either, few things are and the question has to be "broadly, what is better for most people" and I think that is either really strong labour laws or unionisation. Historically unionisation has occurred most when there is an abscence of strong labour laws (in the US and the UK this was certainly true, the reason a 40 hour work week is considered "standard" is because of unions (and Henry T Ford arguably)).

debacle 10y ago

This is a US company trying to export US dysfunction for their benefit. I imagine this will be shot down.