16 ms·

Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

222 points by jjp 10y ago

Jaruzel 10y ago
This is a counterpoint article to this: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-introduces-national-citizen-service-ncs-bill-to-parliament https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-introduces-nat... The NCS is being beefed up to become almost mandatory for young people. Whereas UK Scouting has quite rightly pointed out they they've been doing this for over 100 years already. I can first hand (and second hand via my daughter) validate that being an active Scout brings many benefits to the child, and helps shape their identity for life.
- throwaway1892 10y ago
  I also got a lot of benefits from my years as a Scout, as did my brothers, but I think that it might not be a good fit for all children and some might not get any benefits from it.
- throwaway049 10y ago
  I don't get the impression of 'almost mandatory' from the article, but I still prefer the scouts to anything the UK government is offering.
Artoemius 10y ago
It might be one of the cases where correlation doesn't imply causation. For an objective study, we would need to assign children to groups randomly. Otherwise, we can miss various obscure selection effects. (For example, if children who are more likely to be scouts, are also likely to be from a particular socioeconomic background).
- parennoob 10y ago
  This is almost certainly the case. Being a scout/guide strongly correlates with parental income in the US at least – I don't know how it is in the UK. But if that is true, the headline might as well be "Being rich provides a mental health boost for life".
  - dfsegoat 10y ago
    Have any data to support that? Anecdotally, the Scout Troops in my area are all fairly blue collar.
  - fahrradflucht 10y ago
    Here in Germany it is the same. Being a scout/guide strongly correlates with high(er) parental income, high(er) education and having no migratory background. (This is not just anecdotal but are findings that the RDP (Ring of German scout organizations) made a couple years ago.)
  - ptero 10y ago
    At least in my area I do not have an impression that scout kids are from richer families than all school kids (which should be a pretty good reference point; a little lower maybe because some of the richer parents take their kids to private schools). I do see scouts take lots of active outside trips which can help with mental balance. Doing white water rafting, being thrown overboard, fighting elements, being cold and wet, seeing occasional physical injuries and the beauty of the stars in a desert can put minor life disappointments into perspective for a long long time. My 2c.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    My scouts (was Scoutmaster for 20 years) definitely did not fit the 'rich kid' profile. Farm kids, rural community, parents working 2 jobs or driving a truck. We went to mountains, deserts, rivers and lakes. We swam in a lake on an island in a lake. We canoed, hiked, camped, cooked, woodworked, laughed and ran. Our Troop tried to keep event costs down to around $15, so everybody could participate. Succeeded for the most part. And we did regular fundraisers so anybody who wanted to go, had a way to get there. Scout Troops can be expensive too. Our district has that kind. That can drive the perception of the demographic. But our Troop was top-rated in our District for years. And not because of money. It was because our youth led a very rigorous program, invested themselves in it, and expected a lot from one another. That's actually the whole point of Scouting - getting the youth invested in something worthwhile. In the process, modeling behaviors and training skills and leadership.
- mcjiggerlog 10y ago
  Totally agreed - very flawed study.
  - caminante 10y ago
    Did you look at the study? I'm biased to pile on too social science studies but the study in question made efforts to address these considerations. From another article [0]: "On average, scouts and guides were 15 per cent less likely to have developed mental illness or depression by middle age, even those from poorer backgrounds whose initial risk was higher." [0] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/11/10/scouts-and-guides-grow-up-to-have-better-mental-health/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/11/10/scouts-and-gui...
    - bencollier49 10y ago
      Wealth correlates with parental involvement but not at 1.0 - in other words, if parental involvement is a confounding variable (most likely given its established effect on mental health), correcting for wealth won't eliminate it.
      - caminante 10y ago
        Who's disagreeing with you? I'm lost as to what you're responding to.
        bencollier49 10y ago
        "the study in question made efforts to address these considerations" I'd argue that they didn't make enough efforts.
        caminante 10y ago
        Are you assuming that or did you look at the research paper?
- TorKlingberg 10y ago
  They did try to compensate for such things, but I always wonder if studies can compensate enough. Two households with the same income can have very different socioeconomic status, which may influence both mental health and the amount of scouting.
  - mattkrause 10y ago
    They're not using household income though--they're using a score (actually, a pair of scores) that are supposed to capture "class".
- mkrum 10y ago
  Not only from a socioeconomic point of view, but I would guess that having parents who are involved enough in a child's life to pay for, drive to, and participate in these types of activities is more likely to be a source of a "mental health boost"
  - deadringerr 10y ago
    This is probably true, and why Oregon just passed Outdoor School for All [0]. It's not exactly the same as scouts and guides but it is a guaranteed week-long outdoor education to every student in Oregon. [0] http://www.outdoorschoolforall.org/ http://www.outdoorschoolforall.org/
  - madaxe_again 10y ago
    This is what I was going to say - suspect this stems from having parents or guardians who cared enough to get you involved in such an activity, and the environment that suggests, rather than scouting directly.
    - redcap 10y ago
      There's a lot to be said for going for a 3-day hike in the wilderness, even if you're accompanied by a parent. Going with a scout group usually means that you wont be relying on the parent as you want to stay as a member of the group of people your own age. You'll start to feel tired and sore at some stage, and it may start to rain. But if you've prepared properly (and the scout motto is "be prepared"), then you should be ok. It's just a matter of getting away from it all, and perhaps embracing the suck as mentioned above.
      - madaxe_again 10y ago
        It's true - but I scouted for years and still turned out neurotic and anxious - but I had dismissive parents who I only spent a few months or so with throughout my childhood.
- elcct 10y ago
  This is so common nowadays. Looks like clicks are more important than meaningful information and it is sad that such journalism hits thought to be credible entities like BBC.
- jjp 10y ago
  More details on the study from NewScientist [1] They analysed data from a long-running study of almost 10,000 people across the UK who were born in November 1958. They found that 28 per cent of the study’s participants had been involved in the Scouts or Guides, and that these were 15 per cent less likely to suffer from anxiety or mood disorders at the age of 50 than their peers who didn’t join. Scouts or Guides were not more likely to come from families of any particular social status. However, people from poorer backgrounds do have a relatively higher likelihood of mental illness – but this effect seemed to be reduced or even removed in those who attended Scouts or Guides. [1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2112209-scouts-and-guides-grow-up-to-have-better-mental-health-at-age-50/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2112209-scouts-and-guid... Submitter but not involved in the study
  - moyta 10y ago
    Part of it is you are forced to work through those kinds of issues in a hostile environment (outdoors, in the cold & wet with raccoons, bears, etc depending where your at) with other kids who are apt to get on your nerves after a while. Either you come out a more rounded person who can deal with shit blowing up in your face & making something amazing out of said explosion, or you stop showing up to go on monthly outings.
    - verbify 10y ago
      Just a note, it appears this was conducted in the UK which doesn't have a bear population, and barely has a raccoon population.
      - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Most states in the US have no bears. Even California, which has a Grizzly on their state flag, has the joke "There is one more bear on the state flag that there is in the state of California"
        dragonwriter 10y ago
- gr3yh47 10y ago
  >It might be one of the cases where correlation doesn't imply causation. This was my first thought. I would bet it has more to do with the kind of parents who would enroll their kids in scouts (either for socioeconomic reasons as you mentioned or maybe just whatever else that means about the type of parents they are)
- Lxr 10y ago
  This. So many studies fail to even mention this now. Next time you see a study on the health benefits of some new type of exercise for example, it's worth checking that the results aren't explained by the healthy group simply being more inclined to exercise (see also: less sleep leads to a shorter life, anxiety leads to health problems, etc)
- gwern 10y ago
  Definitely. This is exactly the sort of study you strongly expect the causal conclusion to not obtain and disappear in a randomized study/genetically-sensitive design (anxiety and other mental issues are highly heritable, of course), right up there with such classic sociology non-results as 'children whose fathers leave do worse' or 'children who experience corporal punishment have more behavioral problems' or 'children whose mothers drank during pregnancy are stupider', both because the actual randomized studies of things like early-childhood interventions like Headstart show no effects or fadeout and because there is tons of self-selection in who goes into scouting and who is able to/chooses to stay in it. (Most of the kids who joined with me dropped out at some point, and the more troubled ones dropped out earliest.) Like most of these results, I expect most of the correlation would disappear if you compared siblings, or better yet (but harder to find), discordant twins, or used polygenic scores of genetic risk for anxiety disorders. This study couldn't do it because they took a one-week sample of UK births so no siblings and too few twins, but I'm sure a twin registry or the UK Biobank or someone has asked about extracurriculars like scouting.
  - gwern 10y ago
    And oh yes, since scouting tends to be a family thing where if one son is enrolled in Boy Scouts, the other sons will be too, that means any supposed causal effect of Boy Scouts would fall under 'shared environment' estimates from family & twin designs, which measure the influence of all variables influencing entire families such as parenting choices. And shared environment estimates for anxiety and mental health disorders in general are almost always small. So... if taken at face value, the choice of Boy Scouting or not could explain most or all of a family's influence on anxiety! This seems highly improbable, to say the least.
  - objectivistbrit 10y ago
    A gwern classic - the second sentence of this wall of text contains 112 words and 14 verbs. I think your tendency to include tons of parenthetical remarks, caveats and every example you can think of, confuses the reader and makes it hard to figure out your essential point.
    - 10y ago
- salmonet 10y ago
  That's true, but that study will probably never happen. You can expect that to be one of the top comments on any article like this on HN. It's a speed vs. accuracy problem though. The correlation between global temperatures and human CO2 emissions doesn't mean causation, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't useful info paired with common sense.
- lonewolf_ninja 10y ago
  Definitely agree with that. The socioeconomic background does make a difference. In my city, the schools in the lower economic status did not even have a scouts/guides program and the ones that did were mostly in schools where the middle class/upper middle class kids went to.
- mattkrause 10y ago
  An RCT for this would literally be insane. "Sign up and we might abduct your kid on Thursdays from 7-9pm, as well as 8-10 weekends/year." Please though, give the researchers some credit. Controlling for demographic factors is sort of the bare minimum for something like this--which they attempted to do by including two "social position" factors in the model. They also included some factors relating to childhood (presumably pre-Scouts) mental health, which might also help address selection bias.
toomanybeersies 10y ago
I was in scouts and cadets here in New Zealand when I was a teenager and continue to spend a fair amount of time in the outdoors (I also did Outward Bound when I was 16), and I can definitely relate to the researcher's findings. When you're 2 days walk from civilisation, it's pissing down with rain, and you're cold, wet, hungry, and tired, you get a different perspective on life and the "soft" challenges that you face in life back home. By "soft" challenges I mean things that aren't really life threatening, if you fail to pay the bills, you aren't going to die. If you get soaking wet and get hypothermia in the bush, you could very well die (although it's very unlikely in a structured environment like scouts). I used to ignore problems that I didn't like, and more or less wait for them to go away, this approach obviously didn't work too well. One thing that spending a lot of time in the outdoors did was teach me that when you're in the shit, the only thing that you can do is keep on going forward. When it's dark and cold, and you're tired and your feet hurt, sitting down and resting and waiting isn't going to help you, you need to keep on walking to the hut. And there's nobody else who's going to help you; you can't phone a friend and get them to do the walking for you. The teamwork skills you learn are different to the ones you learn in a soft environment too. Everyone works together for a group benefit, because you're all stuck there together. I've never served in the military, but from the people I know that have, they pretty much learn to take the same attitude. I think that these experiences are something that everyone should have exposure to earlier in life. I've had some experiences where I was absolutely miserable at the time, but in retrospect have been very powerful character building and learning experiences. I spent a week cold and wet in the rain, with a wet tent and a wet sleeping bag on Outward Bound and for 2 nights I was sleeping on an open sailboat and managed about 3 hours of sleep total, I hated it at the time, but it was one of the most character building experiences of my life in retrospect.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  This! Its about being responsible for yourself. That teaches worlds of healthy attitude. One of my Scouts likes long-range bicycling (mountains, centuries etc). He had engraved on the headset of his bike "There's only one way to get home" to remind himself that its all up to him.
- throwaway1892 10y ago
Spearchucker 10y ago
I was a boy scout in the late '70s and early '80s. Loved it, and although I was too young to care at the time, my son will probably not join because religion. Yes, they have a "non-religious promise" now, but you're still subjected to it. I don't care for it, and my son will (like I did) get to choose for himself but (unlike me) without being forcibly subjected to the propaganda. All that said, scouting has changed since I did it. We had a pretty heavy focus on pioneering (my favourite memory is being given an hour to build a suspended platform 2m above the ground before a fictional flood came), first aid (still invaluable today) and orienteering. These days it's the above as well as everything from computers to being a chef and performing arts.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  You want him to choose his own path but are keeping him from interacting with others who share a different world view to yourself? It seems more like you've chosen the philosophical and theological positions for him and want to lock him away from other influences. That would appear to be "religious [fundamentalist] atheism". Hiding our kids from other ideologies to me is like hiding them from danger (using knives say) - they need exposure to it in order to learn a good approach and how to handle it. FWIW I was an atheist cub scout (UK), atheist Scout, agnostic Venture Scout, and ultimately a Christian cub leader... but I'm almost certain the exposure to Christian ideals in Scouting had nothing to do with my conversion. The closest we got to theological influence was as teenagers badgering our leaders as to why we had to make a promise to a God we didn't believe in. Groups vary of course, in the UK the greatest influence is probably the individual leader. Last I knew leaders had to be monotheist, I expect that's changed now. The church parades of my youth would convince anyone that Christianity were baloney. tl;dr don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
- radicsge 10y ago
  Not sure it make sense. How to choose/decide about religion (or the opposite) without knowing about it. It's like refuse to send him to elemental art/math/chemistry class until he choose the university himself. And the another thing, you have enjoyed it (as a whole package), yet you deny this from your child? Sounds a bit strange.
ck425 10y ago
Worth pointing out that this refers to Scouting in the UK. While other scouting movements are based on the original UK scouting movement, there are notable differences between all the scouting movements so this doesn't necessarily apply to other movements. Regardless, good to see some solid press for scouting, gave me some of the best experiences of my life and via Gang Show introduced me to performing arts which plays a huge role in my life.
ben1040 10y ago
On the flip side I personally found the Scouts to be a safe haven for bullying that, when it happens to a child at the wrong time, will wreck their mental health for years to come.
- throwaway1892 10y ago
  Yeah, I agree that the Scouts can be a bad place for that kind of things, which is why I think it might not be good for all childrens. (I had been a Scout for a few year and got a lot of benefits from it, but I know that my brother bullied a lot the younger scouts, so this is a real problem)
  - majc2 10y ago
    I help to run a Scout group in the UK. All adult volunteers receive anti-bullying and child safeguarding training. In my experience - bullying is not tolerated in 'these times'. But for sure, do what you think is best for your kids.
    - throwaway1892 10y ago
      Both my brother and I were scouts in France in the 2000s, so it is fairly recent, but the situation might be different to the one in UK, the organization and the authorities being different. There is not a strong emphasis on bullying protection (as far as I know since I never been on the organization side of things), perhaps because there are different priorities or because it is not perceived as being a widespread problem. I don’t have kids yet, but I think that scouting is a good option. Still, the experience one child will have will vary wildly from one scout association to the other and one local organization to the other, mostly because it depends a lot on the people he will end up with. Also congrats on your engagement ! I always had a lot of respect for those who helped run our groups.
    - porker 10y ago
      'these times' being the crucial distinctor. I was a cub in the early '90s in a deprived ex-mining town in the UK. Fighting and bullying were rife. My parents were warned by other parents they knew not to send me to the scout troop, as it operated more like a gang than a troop.
Luc 10y ago
I recently heard some advice from foreign students in the Netherlands, to not mention ones time in the scouts to Dutch co-students. Apparently it's looked down upon enough that it's best to keep it quiet, especially if you're trying to get a room in a house rented by students. Can a Dutch person comment on this? Is this true, and if so, why?
- Thiez 10y ago
  I'm Dutch and have spent several years as a scout myself, and know several others who have done the same. I've never seen anyone getting looked down upon for that. Perhaps you'll be made fun of if the scouts in your country include merit badges and you keep showing them to everyone, but in that case you kind of deserve it...
- ragebol 10y ago
  Dutch scout here, I've been a scout since I was 7 and I'm now 28 and a cub scout leader (kids aged 7-11). Being in scouting can be perceived (in NL at least) as for nerds/geeks or 'corny' (don't know what is a good translation for the Dutch 'oubollig') Especially when the kids hit puberty (the scouts/guides age), this negative image thing among school peers can be a reason for kids to quit. When I was that age, I didn't really care about much of that sort of talk and really enjoyed my time at scouting. Although there definitely was a negative image among school peers. The image is changing for the better though. I certainly would not hide it. I heard some nice stories from the scouts/guides at high school telling they hiked through the woods for the weekend with a backpack and went canyoning etc, while their non-scout peers only played video games inside. When I was older and went to university, I noticed a lot of people did scouts when they were little kids. Not sure why they quit. The social aspect is definitely a plus in some professions.
  - Luc 10y ago
    Thanks! I remember more details: this was about the 'instemming' (in Delft), a sort of interview you need to go through to get a room. So I suppose being uncool could be a factor there.
kelukelugames 10y ago
correlation != causation.
- harryh 10y ago
  I dunno why you're getting down voted as this is a clear point to make. A fun game I like to play when I read these sorts of things in the news is to reverse the causation implied by what I'm reading. Often times it make more sense. In this case: Those with better mental health are more likely to do Scouts and guides in their youth.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    How is this any better than the original hypothesis and conclusion?
    - mmmrtl 10y ago
      It's not - it points out that the two conclusions have equal supporting evidence, but different implications. Hence, based on the information in the article, there's no reason to expect that on average, a child joining scouts would improve their lifetime mental health. Conversely, looking at the source journal article, the researchers did actually check for confounders in several ways, giving some credence to the idea of a causative effect of scouts participation on lifetime mental health. http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2016/10/05/jech-2016-207898.full http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2016/10/05/jech-2016-20789...
      - kelukelugames 10y ago
        The article was bad, but the study is hard to read. I'm not 100% sure but I think this this blip says scouting potentially has a casual relationship. It shouldn't translate to "Scouts provide mental health boost". >This study used a prospective cohort design, controlling for many of the factors that might affect participation in Scouts–Guides and later life mental health. Most of these measures were collected in the appropriate cohort sweep. The possibility of residual confounding, particularly due to missing or poorly measured socioeconomic variables, was further examined using three methods, a negative exposure control, an exploration of ‘dose–response’ and a measure of differing regional rates of Scouts–Guide attendance. Although there was no evidence of a dose–response relationship, the other methods supported the plausibility of a causal relationship.
logingone 10y ago
This must vary from country to country. The adventures I participated in with scouts were not even remotely as adventurous as some school trips and holidays.
jokoon 10y ago
I recently went to an army reserve training for 13 days. It was intense but really great. Days were from 6AM to 21pm. I really appreciated how everything was structured and very organized. Pressure was there and could be felt, the purpose was to learn everything a soldier needs to know, so the purpose was clear and well defined. You could not hang there and pretend that you don't understand why you're learning this or that. Everything was demonstrated, explained and shown. What I remember from these two weeks is how 3 guys started threatening me because they thought I reported the showers not being cleaned properly, while I was just talking about using flip flops in showers. Lack of popularity caught up on me, and a guy threw a fake grenade at me, and I went to emergency care but lost no hearing, but could not complete the training, so I came back disappointed, but still happy of those 2 weeks since most of my scores were okay. So like usual, those types of programs are great, but unless you prevent people from behaving like predators, people won't take is seriously.
dominotw 10y ago
Defund all 'social research'. This article is should be proof enough of all the money and opportunity lost, not to mention harmful influence on policies, on make work research.
- mattkrause 10y ago
  All of it? You really don't think that it's important to understand the factors that affect people's quality of life, or how groups interact? You don't see any practical applications for this? No possible way that understanding group dynamics could pay off, say in an workplace or military situation?
rtpg 10y ago
I greatly enjoyed my time in the Scouts as a kid in the US. Unfortunately, when I moved to France and joined the scouts there, I found it to be a hotbed for far-right beliefs that I was deeply uncomfortable around. There's something about getting a bunch of guys out in the forest that brings out the worst in us I suppose. People who I would otherwise assume to be nice talking about ethnic cleansing positively. It's a strange, macho environment that I didn't expect after such a fun time in the states...
- moyta 10y ago
  That is really quite sad, outside the Mormon run troops, most are very accepting here in the US, that being said it can get pretty fucked up pretty quick conversation wise. Making me think back to singing "Killing the baby seals" & jokes about the handy ole multicolored abortion scoop & coat hanger, but all in good jest usually. I do imagine having a few openly gay scouts in our troop and good leadership did keep things from skewing far right, its hard to advocate against a race or orientation when you spend hundreds of hours with people of said race or orientation over the course of a year doing constructive things. We had a great scout here from Hong Kong on exchange, so not all scouting programs outside the US suck! It may just be a bad troop too, the Mormon troops in the US are like a whole different organization policy wise. Very clannish.
zzzeek 10y ago
How does this account for more anxious /less well adjusted kids not becoming scouts in the first place due to the difficulty they already have in being part of heavily conformist group activities ?
jwdunne 10y ago
I was in cubs, I was bullied out of it. Any social club can go both ways.
- 77pt77 10y ago
  Maybe bullying someone provides a "mental health boost". I'm being a bit facetious but there seems to be at least a correlation. Bullies live happier lives.
  - jwdunne 10y ago
    Thinking about it I'm not sure they all do. If that sort of behaviour is validated enough and they come out of school with next to nothing, which is the case for many bullies in the UK, they will definitely get a sharp shock when they step into the real world. On the other hand, some go on to head large companies and make billions where their behaviour is idolised as the way to get great things done.
  - altonzheng 10y ago
    I don't know about this, a lot of bullies bully out of their own inner pain.
    - 77pt77 10y ago
      Not really: http://www.today.com/parents/study-bullies-have-higher-self-esteem-social-status-lower-levels-t36271 http://www.today.com/parents/study-bullies-have-higher-self-... > the study by researchers at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, Canada, also found that bullies had the lowest levels of depression, the highest levels of self-esteem and the highest social status. > The study supports the evolutionary process theory that there is a biological explanation for bullying because bullies gain benefits from being aggressive. That is contrary to the theory that bullies are often exhibiting this type of behavior because they have difficult home or school lives or have been the target of bullying or harassment themselves. Most speech like that is just rationalizations that bullied people say to feel better.
bediger4000 10y ago
I'm going to say that the study probably did uncover the truth. I was in the USA Boy Scouts, and one thing I noticed (and disagree with) is the unspoken limitations placed on participants. For instance, what's the highest assignment one can have as a Boy Scout? Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is always very firmly in control. In Scouts, I learned not to expect to rise to the top, indeed, not to even have ambitions to do so, as this is just not possible. This is probably good for all but a vanishingly small number of people: virtually everyone will not be in command, but will be at most a middle manager. It's probably good for your mental health to not be disappointed when your ambitions to become President, or General or CEO are revealed to be impossible. If you learn "your place" instinctively, you won't spend effort trying to be someone that the system just won't let you be. Good all around, I say.
- wtallis 10y ago
  > "For instance, what's the highest assignment one can have as a Boy Scout? Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is always very firmly in control." It sounds like you were in a Boy Scout troop being run with a Cub Scout mindset, rather than one operating according to the official rules and goals. I've never seen JASM described as the highest job assignment a scout can hold; most people would say that's the Senior Patrol Leader, while JASM is a transitional job for experienced scouts to learn how to step back from being a direct leader to being a mentor who helps enable the boys to lead their troop.
  - pitaj 10y ago
    Yeah. SPL is the highest position a boy can have. JASM is just a position for older scouts to transition to a more adult mentor role as they're approaching adulthood.
    - bediger4000 10y ago
      Senior Patrol Leader, Junior Assistance Scout master, what's the difference, really? If a use a military, rather than a business metaphor, a boy can be a non-commissioned officer at best, not even a lieutenant.
Fifer82 10y ago
Think how many variables are involved in this? I just don't accept it.
Nomentatus 10y ago
I spent a lot of time in Scouts learning close order drill, indoors. Seriously. Not much use, although definitely true to the "muscular Christianity" that gave rise to Scouting. However, I spent plenty of time in the woods when I didn't have to go to Scouts in the indoor community hall, so that was good. The Hitler Youth movement was modeled after the Scouts, so it would be interesting to see a study there...
kpennell 10y ago
Reminds me of a great Rachel Carson quote: “A child’s world is fresh and new and beautiful, full or wonder and excitement. It is our misfortune that for most of us that clear-eyed vision, that true instinct for what is beautiful and awe-inspiring, is dimmed and even lost before we reach adulthood. If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I should ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life, as an unfailing antidote against the boredom and disenchantment of later year…the alienation from the sources of our strength.” ― Rachel Carson, The Sense of Wonder
kpennell 10y ago
Reminds me of a great Rachel Carson quote: “A child’s world is fresh and new and beautiful, full or wonder and excitement. It is our misfortune that for most of us that clear-eyed vision, that true instinct for what is beautiful and awe-inspiring, is dimmed and even lost before we reach adulthood. If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I should ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life, as an unfailing antidote against the boredom and disenchantment of later year…the alienation from the sources of our strength.” ― Rachel Carson, The Sense of Wonder
balabaster 10y ago
As someone who came from a single parent family of two boys... I am 40, I have had depression for much of my life. We didn't have much money when I was growing up. I was in the scouts and did the Duke of Edinburgh Award. The single biggest lessons I learned from both are: 1. When you have nothing left to give, sometimes will power and discipline are the only things left in your toolbox that will get you where you need to go. 2. Self reliance - as someone noted earlier in the thread about a cyclist "there is only one way home." It also gave me the skills and a sense of confidence in my ability to survive without any of the trappings of city life. If shit falls to pieces, as having depression has proven to me it can and has and could again, I know I'll survive, regardless of anything - because I have the skills, the will power and discipline to survive the worst. So... I have a sample size of one that goes against the grain of this research. Of course, being 15% less likely doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
ryandrake 10y ago
All I remember from Scouts (USA, 1980s) was continuous fund raising. It was all about learning how to sell candy bars and T-shirts every month. I don't recall ever going on any actual outings in the woods or learning how to tie knots--there was never time amid the constant fund raising.
gina650 10y ago
Interesting article. I just featured a guest on my show talking about computational psycholinguistics and using Language as a Window to the Brain. He became interested in the subject after reading about the famous "nun study" predicting dementia. https://soundcloud.com/user-925097294/michael-covington https://soundcloud.com/user-925097294/michael-covington
redcalx 10y ago
Link to the paper: http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2016/10/05/jech-2016-207898.full.pdf+html http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2016/10/05/jech-2016-20789...
danieltillett 10y ago
The general rule of thumb to use with correlation studies like this is any result under three fold is not likely to hold up in a randomised study. The correlation between smoking and lung cancer is 15 fold.
cairo_x 10y ago
Chronic depression guy here. Was in scouts. Had depressed episodes just as much in as out. I remember one time I was close to suicide, and watching everyone else enjoying themselves made it worse. Would not recommend. I think people with depression wouldn't have gone voluntarily, but I was kind of forced. If you're going through depression scouts is the last fucking place you want to be. Maybe those who develop it in later years have less chance because you're less likely to join if you're prone to depression in the first place? Mehbeh? edit: I was never bullied. Had some fun times, but mostly struggling to keep head above the pits of darkness. Good parents. Lucky guy. I always appreciated my position from an abstract point of view. Best way to describe it: Fatigue is an emotion (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323922/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323922/). You can only work through fatigue for so long. That's what it's like with depression, except sleep doesn't refresh you. Wake up and it's still there. Crippling.

222 points by jjp 10y ago

This is a counterpoint article to this: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-introduces-national-citizen-service-ncs-bill-to-parliament https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-introduces-nat... The NCS is being beefed up to become almost mandatory for young people. Whereas UK Scouting has quite rightly pointed out they they've been doing this for over 100 years already. I can first hand (and second hand via my daughter) validate that being an active Scout brings many benefits to the child, and helps shape their identity for life.

throwaway1892 10y ago
I also got a lot of benefits from my years as a Scout, as did my brothers, but I think that it might not be a good fit for all children and some might not get any benefits from it.
throwaway049 10y ago
I don't get the impression of 'almost mandatory' from the article, but I still prefer the scouts to anything the UK government is offering.

Artoemius 10y ago

It might be one of the cases where correlation doesn't imply causation. For an objective study, we would need to assign children to groups randomly. Otherwise, we can miss various obscure selection effects. (For example, if children who are more likely to be scouts, are also likely to be from a particular socioeconomic background).

parennoob 10y ago
This is almost certainly the case. Being a scout/guide strongly correlates with parental income in the US at least – I don't know how it is in the UK. But if that is true, the headline might as well be "Being rich provides a mental health boost for life".
- dfsegoat 10y ago
  Have any data to support that? Anecdotally, the Scout Troops in my area are all fairly blue collar.
- fahrradflucht 10y ago
  Here in Germany it is the same. Being a scout/guide strongly correlates with high(er) parental income, high(er) education and having no migratory background. (This is not just anecdotal but are findings that the RDP (Ring of German scout organizations) made a couple years ago.)
- ptero 10y ago
  At least in my area I do not have an impression that scout kids are from richer families than all school kids (which should be a pretty good reference point; a little lower maybe because some of the richer parents take their kids to private schools). I do see scouts take lots of active outside trips which can help with mental balance. Doing white water rafting, being thrown overboard, fighting elements, being cold and wet, seeing occasional physical injuries and the beauty of the stars in a desert can put minor life disappointments into perspective for a long long time. My 2c.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  My scouts (was Scoutmaster for 20 years) definitely did not fit the 'rich kid' profile. Farm kids, rural community, parents working 2 jobs or driving a truck. We went to mountains, deserts, rivers and lakes. We swam in a lake on an island in a lake. We canoed, hiked, camped, cooked, woodworked, laughed and ran. Our Troop tried to keep event costs down to around $15, so everybody could participate. Succeeded for the most part. And we did regular fundraisers so anybody who wanted to go, had a way to get there. Scout Troops can be expensive too. Our district has that kind. That can drive the perception of the demographic. But our Troop was top-rated in our District for years. And not because of money. It was because our youth led a very rigorous program, invested themselves in it, and expected a lot from one another. That's actually the whole point of Scouting - getting the youth invested in something worthwhile. In the process, modeling behaviors and training skills and leadership.
mcjiggerlog 10y ago
Totally agreed - very flawed study.
- caminante 10y ago
  Did you look at the study? I'm biased to pile on too social science studies but the study in question made efforts to address these considerations. From another article [0]: "On average, scouts and guides were 15 per cent less likely to have developed mental illness or depression by middle age, even those from poorer backgrounds whose initial risk was higher." [0] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/11/10/scouts-and-guides-grow-up-to-have-better-mental-health/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/11/10/scouts-and-gui...
  - bencollier49 10y ago
    Wealth correlates with parental involvement but not at 1.0 - in other words, if parental involvement is a confounding variable (most likely given its established effect on mental health), correcting for wealth won't eliminate it.
    - caminante 10y ago
      Who's disagreeing with you? I'm lost as to what you're responding to.
      - bencollier49 10y ago
        "the study in question made efforts to address these considerations" I'd argue that they didn't make enough efforts.
        caminante 10y ago
        Are you assuming that or did you look at the research paper?
TorKlingberg 10y ago
They did try to compensate for such things, but I always wonder if studies can compensate enough. Two households with the same income can have very different socioeconomic status, which may influence both mental health and the amount of scouting.
- mattkrause 10y ago
  They're not using household income though--they're using a score (actually, a pair of scores) that are supposed to capture "class".
mkrum 10y ago
Not only from a socioeconomic point of view, but I would guess that having parents who are involved enough in a child's life to pay for, drive to, and participate in these types of activities is more likely to be a source of a "mental health boost"
- deadringerr 10y ago
  This is probably true, and why Oregon just passed Outdoor School for All [0]. It's not exactly the same as scouts and guides but it is a guaranteed week-long outdoor education to every student in Oregon. [0] http://www.outdoorschoolforall.org/ http://www.outdoorschoolforall.org/
- madaxe_again 10y ago
  This is what I was going to say - suspect this stems from having parents or guardians who cared enough to get you involved in such an activity, and the environment that suggests, rather than scouting directly.
  - redcap 10y ago
    There's a lot to be said for going for a 3-day hike in the wilderness, even if you're accompanied by a parent. Going with a scout group usually means that you wont be relying on the parent as you want to stay as a member of the group of people your own age. You'll start to feel tired and sore at some stage, and it may start to rain. But if you've prepared properly (and the scout motto is "be prepared"), then you should be ok. It's just a matter of getting away from it all, and perhaps embracing the suck as mentioned above.
    - madaxe_again 10y ago
      It's true - but I scouted for years and still turned out neurotic and anxious - but I had dismissive parents who I only spent a few months or so with throughout my childhood.
elcct 10y ago
This is so common nowadays. Looks like clicks are more important than meaningful information and it is sad that such journalism hits thought to be credible entities like BBC.
jjp 10y ago
More details on the study from NewScientist [1] They analysed data from a long-running study of almost 10,000 people across the UK who were born in November 1958. They found that 28 per cent of the study’s participants had been involved in the Scouts or Guides, and that these were 15 per cent less likely to suffer from anxiety or mood disorders at the age of 50 than their peers who didn’t join. Scouts or Guides were not more likely to come from families of any particular social status. However, people from poorer backgrounds do have a relatively higher likelihood of mental illness – but this effect seemed to be reduced or even removed in those who attended Scouts or Guides. [1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2112209-scouts-and-guides-grow-up-to-have-better-mental-health-at-age-50/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2112209-scouts-and-guid... Submitter but not involved in the study
- moyta 10y ago
  Part of it is you are forced to work through those kinds of issues in a hostile environment (outdoors, in the cold & wet with raccoons, bears, etc depending where your at) with other kids who are apt to get on your nerves after a while. Either you come out a more rounded person who can deal with shit blowing up in your face & making something amazing out of said explosion, or you stop showing up to go on monthly outings.
  - verbify 10y ago
    Just a note, it appears this was conducted in the UK which doesn't have a bear population, and barely has a raccoon population.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      Most states in the US have no bears. Even California, which has a Grizzly on their state flag, has the joke "There is one more bear on the state flag that there is in the state of California"
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
gr3yh47 10y ago
>It might be one of the cases where correlation doesn't imply causation. This was my first thought. I would bet it has more to do with the kind of parents who would enroll their kids in scouts (either for socioeconomic reasons as you mentioned or maybe just whatever else that means about the type of parents they are)
Lxr 10y ago
This. So many studies fail to even mention this now. Next time you see a study on the health benefits of some new type of exercise for example, it's worth checking that the results aren't explained by the healthy group simply being more inclined to exercise (see also: less sleep leads to a shorter life, anxiety leads to health problems, etc)
gwern 10y ago
Definitely. This is exactly the sort of study you strongly expect the causal conclusion to not obtain and disappear in a randomized study/genetically-sensitive design (anxiety and other mental issues are highly heritable, of course), right up there with such classic sociology non-results as 'children whose fathers leave do worse' or 'children who experience corporal punishment have more behavioral problems' or 'children whose mothers drank during pregnancy are stupider', both because the actual randomized studies of things like early-childhood interventions like Headstart show no effects or fadeout and because there is tons of self-selection in who goes into scouting and who is able to/chooses to stay in it. (Most of the kids who joined with me dropped out at some point, and the more troubled ones dropped out earliest.) Like most of these results, I expect most of the correlation would disappear if you compared siblings, or better yet (but harder to find), discordant twins, or used polygenic scores of genetic risk for anxiety disorders. This study couldn't do it because they took a one-week sample of UK births so no siblings and too few twins, but I'm sure a twin registry or the UK Biobank or someone has asked about extracurriculars like scouting.
- gwern 10y ago
  And oh yes, since scouting tends to be a family thing where if one son is enrolled in Boy Scouts, the other sons will be too, that means any supposed causal effect of Boy Scouts would fall under 'shared environment' estimates from family & twin designs, which measure the influence of all variables influencing entire families such as parenting choices. And shared environment estimates for anxiety and mental health disorders in general are almost always small. So... if taken at face value, the choice of Boy Scouting or not could explain most or all of a family's influence on anxiety! This seems highly improbable, to say the least.
- objectivistbrit 10y ago
  A gwern classic - the second sentence of this wall of text contains 112 words and 14 verbs. I think your tendency to include tons of parenthetical remarks, caveats and every example you can think of, confuses the reader and makes it hard to figure out your essential point.
  - 10y ago
salmonet 10y ago
That's true, but that study will probably never happen. You can expect that to be one of the top comments on any article like this on HN. It's a speed vs. accuracy problem though. The correlation between global temperatures and human CO2 emissions doesn't mean causation, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't useful info paired with common sense.
lonewolf_ninja 10y ago
Definitely agree with that. The socioeconomic background does make a difference. In my city, the schools in the lower economic status did not even have a scouts/guides program and the ones that did were mostly in schools where the middle class/upper middle class kids went to.
mattkrause 10y ago
An RCT for this would literally be insane. "Sign up and we might abduct your kid on Thursdays from 7-9pm, as well as 8-10 weekends/year." Please though, give the researchers some credit. Controlling for demographic factors is sort of the bare minimum for something like this--which they attempted to do by including two "social position" factors in the model. They also included some factors relating to childhood (presumably pre-Scouts) mental health, which might also help address selection bias.

toomanybeersies 10y ago

I was in scouts and cadets here in New Zealand when I was a teenager and continue to spend a fair amount of time in the outdoors (I also did Outward Bound when I was 16), and I can definitely relate to the researcher's findings. When you're 2 days walk from civilisation, it's pissing down with rain, and you're cold, wet, hungry, and tired, you get a different perspective on life and the "soft" challenges that you face in life back home. By "soft" challenges I mean things that aren't really life threatening, if you fail to pay the bills, you aren't going to die. If you get soaking wet and get hypothermia in the bush, you could very well die (although it's very unlikely in a structured environment like scouts). I used to ignore problems that I didn't like, and more or less wait for them to go away, this approach obviously didn't work too well. One thing that spending a lot of time in the outdoors did was teach me that when you're in the shit, the only thing that you can do is keep on going forward. When it's dark and cold, and you're tired and your feet hurt, sitting down and resting and waiting isn't going to help you, you need to keep on walking to the hut. And there's nobody else who's going to help you; you can't phone a friend and get them to do the walking for you. The teamwork skills you learn are different to the ones you learn in a soft environment too. Everyone works together for a group benefit, because you're all stuck there together. I've never served in the military, but from the people I know that have, they pretty much learn to take the same attitude. I think that these experiences are something that everyone should have exposure to earlier in life. I've had some experiences where I was absolutely miserable at the time, but in retrospect have been very powerful character building and learning experiences. I spent a week cold and wet in the rain, with a wet tent and a wet sleeping bag on Outward Bound and for 2 nights I was sleeping on an open sailboat and managed about 3 hours of sleep total, I hated it at the time, but it was one of the most character building experiences of my life in retrospect.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
This! Its about being responsible for yourself. That teaches worlds of healthy attitude. One of my Scouts likes long-range bicycling (mountains, centuries etc). He had engraved on the headset of his bike "There's only one way to get home" to remind himself that its all up to him.
throwaway1892 10y ago

Spearchucker 10y ago

I was a boy scout in the late '70s and early '80s. Loved it, and although I was too young to care at the time, my son will probably not join because religion. Yes, they have a "non-religious promise" now, but you're still subjected to it. I don't care for it, and my son will (like I did) get to choose for himself but (unlike me) without being forcibly subjected to the propaganda. All that said, scouting has changed since I did it. We had a pretty heavy focus on pioneering (my favourite memory is being given an hour to build a suspended platform 2m above the ground before a fictional flood came), first aid (still invaluable today) and orienteering. These days it's the above as well as everything from computers to being a chef and performing arts.

pbhjpbhj 10y ago
You want him to choose his own path but are keeping him from interacting with others who share a different world view to yourself? It seems more like you've chosen the philosophical and theological positions for him and want to lock him away from other influences. That would appear to be "religious [fundamentalist] atheism". Hiding our kids from other ideologies to me is like hiding them from danger (using knives say) - they need exposure to it in order to learn a good approach and how to handle it. FWIW I was an atheist cub scout (UK), atheist Scout, agnostic Venture Scout, and ultimately a Christian cub leader... but I'm almost certain the exposure to Christian ideals in Scouting had nothing to do with my conversion. The closest we got to theological influence was as teenagers badgering our leaders as to why we had to make a promise to a God we didn't believe in. Groups vary of course, in the UK the greatest influence is probably the individual leader. Last I knew leaders had to be monotheist, I expect that's changed now. The church parades of my youth would convince anyone that Christianity were baloney. tl;dr don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
radicsge 10y ago
Not sure it make sense. How to choose/decide about religion (or the opposite) without knowing about it. It's like refuse to send him to elemental art/math/chemistry class until he choose the university himself. And the another thing, you have enjoyed it (as a whole package), yet you deny this from your child? Sounds a bit strange.

ck425 10y ago

Worth pointing out that this refers to Scouting in the UK. While other scouting movements are based on the original UK scouting movement, there are notable differences between all the scouting movements so this doesn't necessarily apply to other movements. Regardless, good to see some solid press for scouting, gave me some of the best experiences of my life and via Gang Show introduced me to performing arts which plays a huge role in my life.

ben1040 10y ago

On the flip side I personally found the Scouts to be a safe haven for bullying that, when it happens to a child at the wrong time, will wreck their mental health for years to come.

throwaway1892 10y ago
Yeah, I agree that the Scouts can be a bad place for that kind of things, which is why I think it might not be good for all childrens. (I had been a Scout for a few year and got a lot of benefits from it, but I know that my brother bullied a lot the younger scouts, so this is a real problem)
- majc2 10y ago
  I help to run a Scout group in the UK. All adult volunteers receive anti-bullying and child safeguarding training. In my experience - bullying is not tolerated in 'these times'. But for sure, do what you think is best for your kids.
  - throwaway1892 10y ago
    Both my brother and I were scouts in France in the 2000s, so it is fairly recent, but the situation might be different to the one in UK, the organization and the authorities being different. There is not a strong emphasis on bullying protection (as far as I know since I never been on the organization side of things), perhaps because there are different priorities or because it is not perceived as being a widespread problem. I don’t have kids yet, but I think that scouting is a good option. Still, the experience one child will have will vary wildly from one scout association to the other and one local organization to the other, mostly because it depends a lot on the people he will end up with. Also congrats on your engagement ! I always had a lot of respect for those who helped run our groups.
  - porker 10y ago
    'these times' being the crucial distinctor. I was a cub in the early '90s in a deprived ex-mining town in the UK. Fighting and bullying were rife. My parents were warned by other parents they knew not to send me to the scout troop, as it operated more like a gang than a troop.

Luc 10y ago

I recently heard some advice from foreign students in the Netherlands, to not mention ones time in the scouts to Dutch co-students. Apparently it's looked down upon enough that it's best to keep it quiet, especially if you're trying to get a room in a house rented by students. Can a Dutch person comment on this? Is this true, and if so, why?

Thiez 10y ago
I'm Dutch and have spent several years as a scout myself, and know several others who have done the same. I've never seen anyone getting looked down upon for that. Perhaps you'll be made fun of if the scouts in your country include merit badges and you keep showing them to everyone, but in that case you kind of deserve it...
ragebol 10y ago
Dutch scout here, I've been a scout since I was 7 and I'm now 28 and a cub scout leader (kids aged 7-11). Being in scouting can be perceived (in NL at least) as for nerds/geeks or 'corny' (don't know what is a good translation for the Dutch 'oubollig') Especially when the kids hit puberty (the scouts/guides age), this negative image thing among school peers can be a reason for kids to quit. When I was that age, I didn't really care about much of that sort of talk and really enjoyed my time at scouting. Although there definitely was a negative image among school peers. The image is changing for the better though. I certainly would not hide it. I heard some nice stories from the scouts/guides at high school telling they hiked through the woods for the weekend with a backpack and went canyoning etc, while their non-scout peers only played video games inside. When I was older and went to university, I noticed a lot of people did scouts when they were little kids. Not sure why they quit. The social aspect is definitely a plus in some professions.
- Luc 10y ago
  Thanks! I remember more details: this was about the 'instemming' (in Delft), a sort of interview you need to go through to get a room. So I suppose being uncool could be a factor there.

kelukelugames 10y ago

correlation != causation.

harryh 10y ago
I dunno why you're getting down voted as this is a clear point to make. A fun game I like to play when I read these sorts of things in the news is to reverse the causation implied by what I'm reading. Often times it make more sense. In this case: Those with better mental health are more likely to do Scouts and guides in their youth.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  How is this any better than the original hypothesis and conclusion?
  - mmmrtl 10y ago
    It's not - it points out that the two conclusions have equal supporting evidence, but different implications. Hence, based on the information in the article, there's no reason to expect that on average, a child joining scouts would improve their lifetime mental health. Conversely, looking at the source journal article, the researchers did actually check for confounders in several ways, giving some credence to the idea of a causative effect of scouts participation on lifetime mental health. http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2016/10/05/jech-2016-207898.full http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2016/10/05/jech-2016-20789...
    - kelukelugames 10y ago
      The article was bad, but the study is hard to read. I'm not 100% sure but I think this this blip says scouting potentially has a casual relationship. It shouldn't translate to "Scouts provide mental health boost". >This study used a prospective cohort design, controlling for many of the factors that might affect participation in Scouts–Guides and later life mental health. Most of these measures were collected in the appropriate cohort sweep. The possibility of residual confounding, particularly due to missing or poorly measured socioeconomic variables, was further examined using three methods, a negative exposure control, an exploration of ‘dose–response’ and a measure of differing regional rates of Scouts–Guide attendance. Although there was no evidence of a dose–response relationship, the other methods supported the plausibility of a causal relationship.

logingone 10y ago

This must vary from country to country. The adventures I participated in with scouts were not even remotely as adventurous as some school trips and holidays.

jokoon 10y ago

I recently went to an army reserve training for 13 days. It was intense but really great. Days were from 6AM to 21pm. I really appreciated how everything was structured and very organized. Pressure was there and could be felt, the purpose was to learn everything a soldier needs to know, so the purpose was clear and well defined. You could not hang there and pretend that you don't understand why you're learning this or that. Everything was demonstrated, explained and shown. What I remember from these two weeks is how 3 guys started threatening me because they thought I reported the showers not being cleaned properly, while I was just talking about using flip flops in showers. Lack of popularity caught up on me, and a guy threw a fake grenade at me, and I went to emergency care but lost no hearing, but could not complete the training, so I came back disappointed, but still happy of those 2 weeks since most of my scores were okay. So like usual, those types of programs are great, but unless you prevent people from behaving like predators, people won't take is seriously.

dominotw 10y ago

Defund all 'social research'. This article is should be proof enough of all the money and opportunity lost, not to mention harmful influence on policies, on make work research.

mattkrause 10y ago
All of it? You really don't think that it's important to understand the factors that affect people's quality of life, or how groups interact? You don't see any practical applications for this? No possible way that understanding group dynamics could pay off, say in an workplace or military situation?

rtpg 10y ago

I greatly enjoyed my time in the Scouts as a kid in the US. Unfortunately, when I moved to France and joined the scouts there, I found it to be a hotbed for far-right beliefs that I was deeply uncomfortable around. There's something about getting a bunch of guys out in the forest that brings out the worst in us I suppose. People who I would otherwise assume to be nice talking about ethnic cleansing positively. It's a strange, macho environment that I didn't expect after such a fun time in the states...

moyta 10y ago
That is really quite sad, outside the Mormon run troops, most are very accepting here in the US, that being said it can get pretty fucked up pretty quick conversation wise. Making me think back to singing "Killing the baby seals" & jokes about the handy ole multicolored abortion scoop & coat hanger, but all in good jest usually. I do imagine having a few openly gay scouts in our troop and good leadership did keep things from skewing far right, its hard to advocate against a race or orientation when you spend hundreds of hours with people of said race or orientation over the course of a year doing constructive things. We had a great scout here from Hong Kong on exchange, so not all scouting programs outside the US suck! It may just be a bad troop too, the Mormon troops in the US are like a whole different organization policy wise. Very clannish.

zzzeek 10y ago

How does this account for more anxious /less well adjusted kids not becoming scouts in the first place due to the difficulty they already have in being part of heavily conformist group activities ?

jwdunne 10y ago

I was in cubs, I was bullied out of it. Any social club can go both ways.

77pt77 10y ago
Maybe bullying someone provides a "mental health boost". I'm being a bit facetious but there seems to be at least a correlation. Bullies live happier lives.
- jwdunne 10y ago
  Thinking about it I'm not sure they all do. If that sort of behaviour is validated enough and they come out of school with next to nothing, which is the case for many bullies in the UK, they will definitely get a sharp shock when they step into the real world. On the other hand, some go on to head large companies and make billions where their behaviour is idolised as the way to get great things done.
- altonzheng 10y ago
  I don't know about this, a lot of bullies bully out of their own inner pain.
  - 77pt77 10y ago
    Not really: http://www.today.com/parents/study-bullies-have-higher-self-esteem-social-status-lower-levels-t36271 http://www.today.com/parents/study-bullies-have-higher-self-... > the study by researchers at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, Canada, also found that bullies had the lowest levels of depression, the highest levels of self-esteem and the highest social status. > The study supports the evolutionary process theory that there is a biological explanation for bullying because bullies gain benefits from being aggressive. That is contrary to the theory that bullies are often exhibiting this type of behavior because they have difficult home or school lives or have been the target of bullying or harassment themselves. Most speech like that is just rationalizations that bullied people say to feel better.

bediger4000 10y ago

I'm going to say that the study probably did uncover the truth. I was in the USA Boy Scouts, and one thing I noticed (and disagree with) is the unspoken limitations placed on participants. For instance, what's the highest assignment one can have as a Boy Scout? Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is always very firmly in control. In Scouts, I learned not to expect to rise to the top, indeed, not to even have ambitions to do so, as this is just not possible. This is probably good for all but a vanishingly small number of people: virtually everyone will not be in command, but will be at most a middle manager. It's probably good for your mental health to not be disappointed when your ambitions to become President, or General or CEO are revealed to be impossible. If you learn "your place" instinctively, you won't spend effort trying to be someone that the system just won't let you be. Good all around, I say.

wtallis 10y ago
> "For instance, what's the highest assignment one can have as a Boy Scout? Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is always very firmly in control." It sounds like you were in a Boy Scout troop being run with a Cub Scout mindset, rather than one operating according to the official rules and goals. I've never seen JASM described as the highest job assignment a scout can hold; most people would say that's the Senior Patrol Leader, while JASM is a transitional job for experienced scouts to learn how to step back from being a direct leader to being a mentor who helps enable the boys to lead their troop.
- pitaj 10y ago
  Yeah. SPL is the highest position a boy can have. JASM is just a position for older scouts to transition to a more adult mentor role as they're approaching adulthood.
  - bediger4000 10y ago
    Senior Patrol Leader, Junior Assistance Scout master, what's the difference, really? If a use a military, rather than a business metaphor, a boy can be a non-commissioned officer at best, not even a lieutenant.

Fifer82 10y ago

Think how many variables are involved in this? I just don't accept it.

Nomentatus 10y ago

I spent a lot of time in Scouts learning close order drill, indoors. Seriously. Not much use, although definitely true to the "muscular Christianity" that gave rise to Scouting. However, I spent plenty of time in the woods when I didn't have to go to Scouts in the indoor community hall, so that was good. The Hitler Youth movement was modeled after the Scouts, so it would be interesting to see a study there...

kpennell 10y ago

Reminds me of a great Rachel Carson quote: “A child’s world is fresh and new and beautiful, full or wonder and excitement. It is our misfortune that for most of us that clear-eyed vision, that true instinct for what is beautiful and awe-inspiring, is dimmed and even lost before we reach adulthood. If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I should ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life, as an unfailing antidote against the boredom and disenchantment of later year…the alienation from the sources of our strength.” ― Rachel Carson, The Sense of Wonder

kpennell 10y ago

balabaster 10y ago

As someone who came from a single parent family of two boys... I am 40, I have had depression for much of my life. We didn't have much money when I was growing up. I was in the scouts and did the Duke of Edinburgh Award. The single biggest lessons I learned from both are: 1. When you have nothing left to give, sometimes will power and discipline are the only things left in your toolbox that will get you where you need to go. 2. Self reliance - as someone noted earlier in the thread about a cyclist "there is only one way home." It also gave me the skills and a sense of confidence in my ability to survive without any of the trappings of city life. If shit falls to pieces, as having depression has proven to me it can and has and could again, I know I'll survive, regardless of anything - because I have the skills, the will power and discipline to survive the worst. So... I have a sample size of one that goes against the grain of this research. Of course, being 15% less likely doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

ryandrake 10y ago

All I remember from Scouts (USA, 1980s) was continuous fund raising. It was all about learning how to sell candy bars and T-shirts every month. I don't recall ever going on any actual outings in the woods or learning how to tie knots--there was never time amid the constant fund raising.

gina650 10y ago

Interesting article. I just featured a guest on my show talking about computational psycholinguistics and using Language as a Window to the Brain. He became interested in the subject after reading about the famous "nun study" predicting dementia. https://soundcloud.com/user-925097294/michael-covington https://soundcloud.com/user-925097294/michael-covington

redcalx 10y ago

Link to the paper: http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2016/10/05/jech-2016-207898.full.pdf+html http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2016/10/05/jech-2016-20789...

danieltillett 10y ago

The general rule of thumb to use with correlation studies like this is any result under three fold is not likely to hold up in a randomised study. The correlation between smoking and lung cancer is 15 fold.

cairo_x 10y ago

Chronic depression guy here. Was in scouts. Had depressed episodes just as much in as out. I remember one time I was close to suicide, and watching everyone else enjoying themselves made it worse. Would not recommend. I think people with depression wouldn't have gone voluntarily, but I was kind of forced. If you're going through depression scouts is the last fucking place you want to be. Maybe those who develop it in later years have less chance because you're less likely to join if you're prone to depression in the first place? Mehbeh? edit: I was never bullied. Had some fun times, but mostly struggling to keep head above the pits of darkness. Good parents. Lucky guy. I always appreciated my position from an abstract point of view. Best way to describe it: Fatigue is an emotion (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323922/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323922/). You can only work through fatigue for so long. That's what it's like with depression, except sleep doesn't refresh you. Wake up and it's still there. Crippling.