10 ms·

Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

125 points by jjp 10y ago

NinoScript 10y ago
Business idea: import prisoners! (jk)
- NKCSS 10y ago
  Played a lot of Sim City? :)
- realharo 10y ago
  According to the article, they are doing exactly that (but only as a partial "solution").
- nothrabannosir 10y ago
  That's happening; holland takes on Belgian prisoners. Or at least they did, then did not, then did, I'm not sure where it stands right now. But definitely happening :)
  - Tharkun 10y ago
    Belgium has an abysmal track record when it comes to prisons. It's been repeatedly convicted for treating prisoners like cattle, for putting psychiatric patients in regular prisons without treatment etc. Sending some prisoners to Dutch prisons (including a prison boat, iirc) is one of the best things that's happened to the Belgian penal system in years. Sadly it's only a temporary relief, and it's been cancelled (and resumed) several times.
    - gcp 10y ago
      The programme was stopped because Belgium finished building new prisons.
      - Tharkun 10y ago
        When was this? Last I heard there were still over crowding issues.
- andreash 10y ago
  They are importing prisoners from Norway too :P
yxhuvud 10y ago
The same thing have been happening in Sweden.
Waterluvian 10y ago
Maybe some prisons can fundamentally change to becoming some sort of YMCA-like environment. I imagine a lot of the prisoners are non violent. If so, I wonder if you could co-mingle those who live at the "prison" with those who go for the social activities and whatnot.
- rwmj 10y ago
  This sort of exists in the UK. When I was young I volunteered for CSV (now rebranded "Volunteering Matters"), but a good section, possibly 1/3rd of the people there were prisoners on day release or people who had been given (non-voluntary) community service as an alternative to prison. Quite good, you definitely got to meet all types of people. Sadly unlike the Simpsons joke I cannot trade my voluntary work against future crimes.
- gpvos 10y ago
  They are doing something like that in Denmark. Seems to work well from what I've heard.
- john_reel 10y ago
  That would be interesting. AA and NA meetings have undeniably helped a lot of people break addictions and turn their lives around. If a criminal justice system is to improve people's lives and many of these prisoners are in for drug and alcohol related reasons, it only feels logical to me that at the very least, these meetings should be an option. Come to think of it, if it worked out, I could see non-prisoners that feel they need help or could help others out going. While NA and AA meetings have the appeal of almost always being done in private, inconspicuous locations, I'm sure that at least a few people might still attend meetings held in a hypothetical YMCA-prison. It could help with situations like these where there is a lot of extra room in the prison. This might be best suited to drug rehab facilities, but I think that the idea could work anywhere with a receptive environment. It would probably be hard to give a prison of a good image though. According to comments here, it seems like similar systems already exist in some countries. If this is true, how effective have they been?
- Scarblac 10y ago
  In the Netherlands there are also institutions for those who committed crimes but were held less responsible because of mental illness. To protect society and to treat them. Not quite as stict as prison, but they don't have freedom and are often violent. They can sometimes have social contact with the outside world, e.g. by having a football or chess team that plays in the league. Only home matches of course. I played chess against some of these people inside once, you do keep wondering what they did to be there...
jlebrech 10y ago
how about using such an institution to educate immigrants?
- eppeltert 10y ago
  I've heard of at least one former prison being used for refugee housing.
  - awjr 10y ago
    Which is also mentioned in the article.
- mrmrcoleman 10y ago
  Educate immigrants? In what?
  - jlebrech 10y ago
    in the language and culture. also skills for work.
  - jlebrech 10y ago
    and by immigrants, i meant "migrants"
    - literallycancer 10y ago
      Who's going to educate them? The underpaid high school dropouts who normally run the prisons?
- deadbunny 10y ago
  I'm sure being sent to a (disused) prison would be a wonderful welcome to a country. I mean I'm all for helping newcomers but sending them into a prison might send the wrong message ;)
  - 67726e 10y ago
dep_b 10y ago
It's not a lack of crime that causes it but a lack of solved crimes. Violent crimes for example, if a violent crime gets reported in Germany they solve the crime in 80% of the cases but in Holland just 40%. People organise neighbourhood watch WhatsApp groups to prevent crime instead of relying on the police to fix things. Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. And there's a constant flood of people trying to get into clubs with shooting ranges, the only way to get a gun legally in The Netherlands if you're not in the police or the army. So people don't trust the government anymore in protecting them and they take rights into their own hands. Not a socialist paradise that's so right and just that nobody commits crimes anymore. ------- Edit 2: I'm not telling that it's not a safe place. I'm telling that when something does happen you shouldn't rely on the police to fix it. ------- Thanks for the down votes without knowing the facts. There are many sources, this is one of the more recent: https://duitslandinstituut.nl/artikel/10090/opvallende-verschillen-in-nederlands-en-duits-recht https://duitslandinstituut.nl/artikel/10090/opvallende-versc... WhatsApp neighbourhood patrols: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/02/29/waken-met-whatsapp-rukt-op-in-buurten-1593855-a1140157 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/02/29/waken-met-whatsapp-rukt... http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/2799774/2016/07/19/Burgerwacht-Soldiers-of-Odin-jaagt-op-criminele-asielzoekers-in-Nederland.dhtml http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/27997... Apart from that every shooting range has a huge waiting list nowadays. Just pick the ones closest to you.
- askmike 10y ago
  I've lived in the Netherlands for over 20 years in 5 different cities (in a small town like Geldermalsen as well as Amsterdam) and I have never experienced anything like that.. In all the places I've lived I (and everyone around me) always felt extremely safe. ----- EDIT: those are some weird sources: - first link is a dutch website called "Germany institute". It doesn't say anything about 40% non solvency (or 80% solvency in Germany). - second link talks about how neighbourhood watches have grown five fold, to a whapping 661 watches over 17 million people. - third link is a belgium website talking about an extreme right winged finnish watch that has been to the netherlands one time.
  - 10y ago
msvalkon 10y ago
> Frans Carbo, the prison guards' representative from the FNV union, says his members are "angry and a little bit depressed". Young people don't want to join the prison service he adds "because there is no future in it any more - you never know when your prison will be closed". Well this truly sounds abhorrent.
- Cthulhu_ 10y ago
  Actually no, it sounds utopian - closing prisons because crime is low is a good thing.
  - akerro 10y ago
    I remember reading somewhere that Iceland had to close prisons due to lack of prisoners. They get a few convicts per year and have to send them abroad to prisons abroad.
  - apetresc 10y ago
    I'm certain he was being sarcastic.
    - msvalkon 10y ago
      Correct.
martijn_himself 10y ago
Dutch national here. I'm pretty sure this is largely due to lenient prison sentences, no prison sentences at all for minor offences, and unsolved crimes. The cold-blooded convicted killer of the frontrunner in the Dutch elections in 2002 was released after 12 years, something which is unthinkable in other countries.
- msvalkon 10y ago
  In Finland, "for life" means 12 years.
- CRidge 10y ago
  This doesn't sound unthinkable in other countries. I'm from Norway, where the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, with a third of that often being deducted for good behavior, leaving 14 years.
  - martijn_himself 10y ago
    Agreed! That will probably generate a lot of debate when Breivik comes up for release.
    - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
      I live in Norway, though not Norwegian. From what I can tell it already generates a lot of debate. The sentencing seems to generate debate when someone does any sort of heinous crime. At the same time, folks seem rather proud of the system itself. And I think folks should be. I'm American, the land of petty imprisonments and punishments lasting long after prison time is served. The system here seems to produce much better outcomes for both the people imprisoned and the community around them.
      - martijn_himself 10y ago
        The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most. I agree there is a balance to be struck, the American system seems to be the other extreme.
diskooo 10y ago
Yeah, no wonder - you rape somebody here and you have to clean the streets for a week. If you're unlucky that is. Police officers are too busy with mobile speed controls. They don't (dare) arrest anybody who's foul-mouthing them in their face. They have become laughing stock. Crime sentences (duration) are deplorable. Solved crime rates are way too low.
- spiderfarmer 10y ago
  Do you have any solved crime rate statistics, when compared to other countries? The Police manpower is on par with the UK. And the amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany. See sources in my other comment.
  - mrmrcoleman 10y ago
    +1
  - diskooo 10y ago
    https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdecorrespondent.nl%2F2038%2Fopheldering-verzocht-acht-op-de-tien-misdrijven-in-nederland-wordt-nooit-opgelost%2F278856112084-474d5e9e&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pre... A little dated, but it surely shows a trend which has only gotten worse over the past years. It has a comparison between The Netherlands and Germany. Another source: https://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=nl&sl=nl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrc.nl%2Fnieuws%2F2012%2F11%2F17%2Fcriminaliteit-is-zichtbaar-puntje-van-ijsberg-a1481131 https://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=nl&sl=nl&tl=en&u=ht...
- mcv 10y ago
  Low solved crimes rates are indeed a problem if that's true (it seems to be, but I'm not sure), but short sentences don't have to be a problem if they're effective at stopping inmates from returning to crime. The goal should not be to lock people up, the goal should be to prevent crime.
  - deleted 10y ago
waterflame 10y ago
Apparently the Dutch are not as smart as the Americans. It's simple: 1- Legalize Guns so people can shoot each other over anything 2- Privatize Prisons so that greedy CEOs can take over the "business" 3- Create laws that can criminalize you for any stupid thing you do, procedures that make everyone frustrated, and an economy that keeps you bankrupt most of the time
- hellofunk 10y ago
  I recognize your sarcasm. Upvoted.
- pitaj 10y ago
  > Legalize Guns so people can shoot each other over anything The pinnacle of honest characterizations /s
- LeonM 10y ago
  Of course you need to legalize guns, it's to protect yourself from other people with guns! The only solution to the shootings in the US is to equip more people with guns, you know, for "protection".
  - skoczymroczny 10y ago
    Or to have a chance against a guy armed with a knife.
    - tynpeddler 10y ago
      Or for a small person to have a chance against a big person. Or an old person to have a chance against a young person. Or for one person to have a chance against lots of people.
- zyx321 10y ago
  All those measures will take a long time to take effect. You can't expect culture to change over night. Luckily if you want results NOW, all you gotta do is outlaw marijuana. Nothing fills prisons like a War on Drugs.
awjr 10y ago
The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to manage and overcome their addiction brings significantly better long-term results to society. More interestingly the article mentions that dangerous criminals are locked up, but also vulnerable individuals that have broken the law and because the best help to get them back on track is within the prison system. Dutch prisons are not just there to incarcerate, but to help people back to being fully functioning members of society. To get "revolving door" prisoners down to 10% vs 56% in the UK is a huge achievement.
- spiderfarmer 10y ago
  It's a mix of having a lot of prisons, short sentences and low crime rates. A lot of people are advocating for more police and longer sentences, but I don't see why. If you look at the numbers, the system is working. The Police manpower is on par with the UK: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Police_officers,_average_per_year,_2007%E2%80%9309_and_2010%E2%80%9312_(per_100_000_inhabitants)_YB14.png http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/... The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Prison_population,_average_per_year,_2007%E2%80%9309_and_2010%E2%80%9312_(per_100_000_inhabitants)_YB14.png http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...
  - allendoerfer 10y ago
    > The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/.. http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/.... Whose police and security forces are also underfunded. Apart from the usual "hey, new idea: let's increase pensions!" you need to do to win in an ageing country, this is the big topic in the upcoming election.
mcv 10y ago
By sheer coincidence, we had a short vacation to Veenhuizen last weekend. Visited the prison museum, drove past several other prisons (I believe the village has been home to about 5 different prisons over the years). Originally, the layout of the village had the prisons (or other correctional facilities, before they turned it into a prison colony) at the center, and the houses of the guards around it. All the houses have inspiring words on the facade about how good it is to work and help people, and the sizes and designs of the houses were according to a strict hierarchy among the employees. I believe only people above a certain rank were allowed to have some types of tree in their garden. Extremely orderly, all of it. Nowadays it's far more pragmatic and less restrictive of course, but there are still two prisons in active use.
OliverJones 10y ago
This reduction in prison population is, at root, a consequence of ending drug prohibition. In the US, state voters are working on this in places like Colorado, Washington, and now my home state, Massachusetts. So far, voters have had to do it. Legislatures can't, yet, do it, because the vested special interests in continuing prohibition are too strong. I'm sure somebody can speak for California; I don't know much about the situation there. The Washington cannabis-legalization model is based on a juridical argument: it's crazy to kick young people to the curb, take away their scholarships, and throw them in jail, for pot smoking, even though smoking pot is harmful. It wastes time and distracts the police from dealing with worse stuff like "human trafficking" (kidnapping teens and compelling them to work in the sex trade) and domestic violence. The Colorado / Massachusetts model is based on a recreational argument. Cannabis is safer and less harmful than alcohol. People will use substances for fun. The less harmful those substances are, the better. Both models involve regulation: purity, labeling, "carding" kids to keep them away from the stuff. Both involve taxation. The recreational model is harder to use when arguing to end the prohibition of other drugs. Heroin and cocaine are, in fact, safer than alcohol when criminal gangs aren't involved in delivering them to users. The statistics come from experiments in various places where clinical decriminalization has been tried. But that's a very hard argument to make. The juridical argument is easier to use to convince people. Both models cut down on police work, court work, and prison populations. As prohibition gradually contracts, lots of people will find themselves out of work: El Chapo and his cartel gangs, the Crips and Bloods, local gangs like the Insane Unknowns (who controlled the neighborhood where I lived as a graduate student on the south side of Chicago), police, probation workers, prison workers, and so forth. People resist being thrown out of work, so eliminating prohibition will take another generation. People with access to legislatures (police, court, prison people) will resist there. The other side will fight it in the streets. But it will happen. More info? Chasing the Scream, by Johann Hari. http://www.worldcat.org/title/chasing-the-scream-the-first-and-last-days-of-the-war-on-drugs/oclc/881418255 http://www.worldcat.org/title/chasing-the-scream-the-first-a...
- petra 10y ago
  Heroin and Cocaine are safer than Alcohol ? Can you share some info please ?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
puravidas 10y ago
Their system makes you feel like an asshole if you're a bad guy.
- deadbunny 10y ago
  Well isn't that basically par for the course if you're going to break the rules?
  - gcp 10y ago
    No sometimes they elect you president.
tyfon 10y ago
Norwegian here. We are actually renting a whole prison complex in Netherlands to get our own queues down without investing. https://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norsk-fengsel-i-nederland-1.12110632 https://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norsk-fengsel-i-nederland-1.12110... (Translate it with your favorite tool)
messo 10y ago
The Netherlands is actually renting out prisons to Norway (and others). Norwegian prisons are famously comfortable and aimed at rehabilitation (https://youtu.be/01mTKDaKa6Q?t=4m18s https://youtu.be/01mTKDaKa6Q?t=4m18s) but we still have draconian drug laws (thanks to the US) that keep filling up the few prisons we do have. Half of our prison population is in for drug-related crimes. Luckily this is about to change, as our minister of health recently proposed to copy what Portugal has done – decriminalize all drug use and move all drug related problems to the health system, not the judicial system. To bad for the Netherlands – they will probably loose a good customer.
- kaared 10y ago
  According to https://www.ssb.no/fengsling/ https://www.ssb.no/fengsling/, for 2014 only 25% of inmates were incarcerated due to drug crimes. Of new incarcerations in 2014, drug crimes represented about 18% (because of other shorter sentences, e.g. traffic or financial crimes).
finid 10y ago
If somebody has a drug problem we treat their addiction, if they are aggressive we provide anger management, if they have got money problems we give them debt counselling. So we try to remove whatever it was that caused the crime. Here's hoping that they don't privatize prisons, like we have in the US.
thght 10y ago
What a lie this is.. In reality there is the decade old problem that the Dutch justice system cannot handle the amount of criminals. Not enough judges and money for that. Partly because of this it has become very hard in the Netherlands to even file a police report for light to medium weight crimes committed to you. Police simply send you away if a crime is not heavy enough in their opinion. Criminals walk free on the street, and when they are caught they most often are back on the street the same day, unless it is a real serious crime of course. At some point they even decided not to file a police report below 3Kg of cocaine smuggling from the Dutch Antilles. Why? There were just too many doing it and the justice system couldn't handle it.. The Netherlands in reality has a very high crime rate, but the government found smart ways to conceal that.
- rwmj 10y ago
  The actual policy about the 3kg of cocaine is much more interesting and rather different from what you state. From http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTHAITI/Resources/CaribbeanC&VChapter7.pdf http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTHAITI/Resources/Caribb... > 7.13. Toward this end, the “100% Control” policy was implemented, in which flights landing in Schiphol originating from the Dutch Caribbean, Suriname, or Venezuela are subject to extensive searches. Rather than attempting to scare off potential smugglers with the threat of incarceration, the Dutch approach was based on increasing the rate of interdiction to the point that smuggling becomes unprofitable. In other words, the focus was on the drugs, rather than the couriers, and was based on incapacitation, rather than traditional deterrence. Europol described the mechanics of the policy in this way: > > Crews, passengers, their luggage, the cargo and the planes are systematically searched. Couriers with amounts of less than 3 kg of cocaine are not detained, unless they are arrested for the second time or another criminal offense is involved. Instead, the drugs are confiscated and the smugglers are sent back. Couriers who have been identified are registered on a blacklist, which is provided to KLM, Dutch Caribbean Airlines and Suriname Airways.
  - thght 10y ago
    You must be very naive to believe all that.. The actual amount of cocaine smuggled into the Netherlands is currently higher than ever before. Also, the street value for 3Kg of cocaine is far above 50.000 euro's, do you realise how poor the people of the Dutch Antilles are? Without even a police report and a free ride back it's a clear invitation. And I didn't even mention the corrupt airport security, some of them make a sweet income out of this. It is definitely not "100% control", at all..
humbleMouse 10y ago
Anecdotally, I have been in jail in the netherlands before, and it's honestly not that bad of a place to be. Delicious food, thick mattresses, private cells. Also, all the surfaces are painted pink/yellow/white because those colors have been shown to calm people who are locked up.
- thecynh 10y ago
  Mind sharing what for? I assume it is quite a different experience depending on what you are "in" for?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
jandrese 10y ago
The article says right at the top that a significant chunk of the decline is the police turning an blind eye towards drug use and even trafficking. I wonder how much their immigration policy has to do with it as well? If they were accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees from war torn countries their crime rate might not be so low.
- Scarblac 10y ago
  Refugees in general have a very low crime rate. They just escaped a war, get help that they're thankful for and want to get their lives on track in their new country. It's the illegal immigrants for economic reasons that find life is very hard that are a problem.

125 points by jjp 10y ago

NinoScript 10y ago

Business idea: import prisoners! (jk)

NKCSS 10y ago
Played a lot of Sim City? :)
realharo 10y ago
According to the article, they are doing exactly that (but only as a partial "solution").
nothrabannosir 10y ago
That's happening; holland takes on Belgian prisoners. Or at least they did, then did not, then did, I'm not sure where it stands right now. But definitely happening :)
- Tharkun 10y ago
  Belgium has an abysmal track record when it comes to prisons. It's been repeatedly convicted for treating prisoners like cattle, for putting psychiatric patients in regular prisons without treatment etc. Sending some prisoners to Dutch prisons (including a prison boat, iirc) is one of the best things that's happened to the Belgian penal system in years. Sadly it's only a temporary relief, and it's been cancelled (and resumed) several times.
  - gcp 10y ago
    The programme was stopped because Belgium finished building new prisons.
    - Tharkun 10y ago
      When was this? Last I heard there were still over crowding issues.
andreash 10y ago
They are importing prisoners from Norway too :P

yxhuvud 10y ago

The same thing have been happening in Sweden.

Waterluvian 10y ago

Maybe some prisons can fundamentally change to becoming some sort of YMCA-like environment. I imagine a lot of the prisoners are non violent. If so, I wonder if you could co-mingle those who live at the "prison" with those who go for the social activities and whatnot.

rwmj 10y ago
This sort of exists in the UK. When I was young I volunteered for CSV (now rebranded "Volunteering Matters"), but a good section, possibly 1/3rd of the people there were prisoners on day release or people who had been given (non-voluntary) community service as an alternative to prison. Quite good, you definitely got to meet all types of people. Sadly unlike the Simpsons joke I cannot trade my voluntary work against future crimes.
gpvos 10y ago
They are doing something like that in Denmark. Seems to work well from what I've heard.
john_reel 10y ago
That would be interesting. AA and NA meetings have undeniably helped a lot of people break addictions and turn their lives around. If a criminal justice system is to improve people's lives and many of these prisoners are in for drug and alcohol related reasons, it only feels logical to me that at the very least, these meetings should be an option. Come to think of it, if it worked out, I could see non-prisoners that feel they need help or could help others out going. While NA and AA meetings have the appeal of almost always being done in private, inconspicuous locations, I'm sure that at least a few people might still attend meetings held in a hypothetical YMCA-prison. It could help with situations like these where there is a lot of extra room in the prison. This might be best suited to drug rehab facilities, but I think that the idea could work anywhere with a receptive environment. It would probably be hard to give a prison of a good image though. According to comments here, it seems like similar systems already exist in some countries. If this is true, how effective have they been?
Scarblac 10y ago
In the Netherlands there are also institutions for those who committed crimes but were held less responsible because of mental illness. To protect society and to treat them. Not quite as stict as prison, but they don't have freedom and are often violent. They can sometimes have social contact with the outside world, e.g. by having a football or chess team that plays in the league. Only home matches of course. I played chess against some of these people inside once, you do keep wondering what they did to be there...

jlebrech 10y ago

how about using such an institution to educate immigrants?

eppeltert 10y ago
I've heard of at least one former prison being used for refugee housing.
- awjr 10y ago
  Which is also mentioned in the article.
mrmrcoleman 10y ago
Educate immigrants? In what?
- jlebrech 10y ago
  in the language and culture. also skills for work.
- jlebrech 10y ago
  and by immigrants, i meant "migrants"
  - literallycancer 10y ago
    Who's going to educate them? The underpaid high school dropouts who normally run the prisons?
deadbunny 10y ago
I'm sure being sent to a (disused) prison would be a wonderful welcome to a country. I mean I'm all for helping newcomers but sending them into a prison might send the wrong message ;)
- 67726e 10y ago

dep_b 10y ago

It's not a lack of crime that causes it but a lack of solved crimes. Violent crimes for example, if a violent crime gets reported in Germany they solve the crime in 80% of the cases but in Holland just 40%. People organise neighbourhood watch WhatsApp groups to prevent crime instead of relying on the police to fix things. Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. And there's a constant flood of people trying to get into clubs with shooting ranges, the only way to get a gun legally in The Netherlands if you're not in the police or the army. So people don't trust the government anymore in protecting them and they take rights into their own hands. Not a socialist paradise that's so right and just that nobody commits crimes anymore. ------- Edit 2: I'm not telling that it's not a safe place. I'm telling that when something does happen you shouldn't rely on the police to fix it. ------- Thanks for the down votes without knowing the facts. There are many sources, this is one of the more recent: https://duitslandinstituut.nl/artikel/10090/opvallende-verschillen-in-nederlands-en-duits-recht https://duitslandinstituut.nl/artikel/10090/opvallende-versc... WhatsApp neighbourhood patrols: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/02/29/waken-met-whatsapp-rukt-op-in-buurten-1593855-a1140157 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/02/29/waken-met-whatsapp-rukt... http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/2799774/2016/07/19/Burgerwacht-Soldiers-of-Odin-jaagt-op-criminele-asielzoekers-in-Nederland.dhtml http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/27997... Apart from that every shooting range has a huge waiting list nowadays. Just pick the ones closest to you.

askmike 10y ago
I've lived in the Netherlands for over 20 years in 5 different cities (in a small town like Geldermalsen as well as Amsterdam) and I have never experienced anything like that.. In all the places I've lived I (and everyone around me) always felt extremely safe. ----- EDIT: those are some weird sources: - first link is a dutch website called "Germany institute". It doesn't say anything about 40% non solvency (or 80% solvency in Germany). - second link talks about how neighbourhood watches have grown five fold, to a whapping 661 watches over 17 million people. - third link is a belgium website talking about an extreme right winged finnish watch that has been to the netherlands one time.
- 10y ago

msvalkon 10y ago

> Frans Carbo, the prison guards' representative from the FNV union, says his members are "angry and a little bit depressed". Young people don't want to join the prison service he adds "because there is no future in it any more - you never know when your prison will be closed". Well this truly sounds abhorrent.

Cthulhu_ 10y ago
Actually no, it sounds utopian - closing prisons because crime is low is a good thing.
- akerro 10y ago
  I remember reading somewhere that Iceland had to close prisons due to lack of prisoners. They get a few convicts per year and have to send them abroad to prisons abroad.
- apetresc 10y ago
  I'm certain he was being sarcastic.
  - msvalkon 10y ago
    Correct.

martijn_himself 10y ago

Dutch national here. I'm pretty sure this is largely due to lenient prison sentences, no prison sentences at all for minor offences, and unsolved crimes. The cold-blooded convicted killer of the frontrunner in the Dutch elections in 2002 was released after 12 years, something which is unthinkable in other countries.

msvalkon 10y ago
In Finland, "for life" means 12 years.
CRidge 10y ago
This doesn't sound unthinkable in other countries. I'm from Norway, where the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, with a third of that often being deducted for good behavior, leaving 14 years.
- martijn_himself 10y ago
  Agreed! That will probably generate a lot of debate when Breivik comes up for release.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    I live in Norway, though not Norwegian. From what I can tell it already generates a lot of debate. The sentencing seems to generate debate when someone does any sort of heinous crime. At the same time, folks seem rather proud of the system itself. And I think folks should be. I'm American, the land of petty imprisonments and punishments lasting long after prison time is served. The system here seems to produce much better outcomes for both the people imprisoned and the community around them.
    - martijn_himself 10y ago
      The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most. I agree there is a balance to be struck, the American system seems to be the other extreme.

diskooo 10y ago

Yeah, no wonder - you rape somebody here and you have to clean the streets for a week. If you're unlucky that is. Police officers are too busy with mobile speed controls. They don't (dare) arrest anybody who's foul-mouthing them in their face. They have become laughing stock. Crime sentences (duration) are deplorable. Solved crime rates are way too low.

spiderfarmer 10y ago
Do you have any solved crime rate statistics, when compared to other countries? The Police manpower is on par with the UK. And the amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany. See sources in my other comment.
- mrmrcoleman 10y ago
  +1
- diskooo 10y ago
  https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdecorrespondent.nl%2F2038%2Fopheldering-verzocht-acht-op-de-tien-misdrijven-in-nederland-wordt-nooit-opgelost%2F278856112084-474d5e9e&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pre... A little dated, but it surely shows a trend which has only gotten worse over the past years. It has a comparison between The Netherlands and Germany. Another source: https://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=nl&sl=nl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrc.nl%2Fnieuws%2F2012%2F11%2F17%2Fcriminaliteit-is-zichtbaar-puntje-van-ijsberg-a1481131 https://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=nl&sl=nl&tl=en&u=ht...
mcv 10y ago
Low solved crimes rates are indeed a problem if that's true (it seems to be, but I'm not sure), but short sentences don't have to be a problem if they're effective at stopping inmates from returning to crime. The goal should not be to lock people up, the goal should be to prevent crime.
- deleted 10y ago

waterflame 10y ago

Apparently the Dutch are not as smart as the Americans. It's simple: 1- Legalize Guns so people can shoot each other over anything 2- Privatize Prisons so that greedy CEOs can take over the "business" 3- Create laws that can criminalize you for any stupid thing you do, procedures that make everyone frustrated, and an economy that keeps you bankrupt most of the time

hellofunk 10y ago
I recognize your sarcasm. Upvoted.
pitaj 10y ago
> Legalize Guns so people can shoot each other over anything The pinnacle of honest characterizations /s
LeonM 10y ago
Of course you need to legalize guns, it's to protect yourself from other people with guns! The only solution to the shootings in the US is to equip more people with guns, you know, for "protection".
- skoczymroczny 10y ago
  Or to have a chance against a guy armed with a knife.
  - tynpeddler 10y ago
    Or for a small person to have a chance against a big person. Or an old person to have a chance against a young person. Or for one person to have a chance against lots of people.
zyx321 10y ago
All those measures will take a long time to take effect. You can't expect culture to change over night. Luckily if you want results NOW, all you gotta do is outlaw marijuana. Nothing fills prisons like a War on Drugs.

awjr 10y ago

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to manage and overcome their addiction brings significantly better long-term results to society. More interestingly the article mentions that dangerous criminals are locked up, but also vulnerable individuals that have broken the law and because the best help to get them back on track is within the prison system. Dutch prisons are not just there to incarcerate, but to help people back to being fully functioning members of society. To get "revolving door" prisoners down to 10% vs 56% in the UK is a huge achievement.

spiderfarmer 10y ago
It's a mix of having a lot of prisons, short sentences and low crime rates. A lot of people are advocating for more police and longer sentences, but I don't see why. If you look at the numbers, the system is working. The Police manpower is on par with the UK: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Police_officers,_average_per_year,_2007%E2%80%9309_and_2010%E2%80%9312_(per_100_000_inhabitants)_YB14.png http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/... The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Prison_population,_average_per_year,_2007%E2%80%9309_and_2010%E2%80%9312_(per_100_000_inhabitants)_YB14.png http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...
- allendoerfer 10y ago
  > The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/.. http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/.... Whose police and security forces are also underfunded. Apart from the usual "hey, new idea: let's increase pensions!" you need to do to win in an ageing country, this is the big topic in the upcoming election.

mcv 10y ago

By sheer coincidence, we had a short vacation to Veenhuizen last weekend. Visited the prison museum, drove past several other prisons (I believe the village has been home to about 5 different prisons over the years). Originally, the layout of the village had the prisons (or other correctional facilities, before they turned it into a prison colony) at the center, and the houses of the guards around it. All the houses have inspiring words on the facade about how good it is to work and help people, and the sizes and designs of the houses were according to a strict hierarchy among the employees. I believe only people above a certain rank were allowed to have some types of tree in their garden. Extremely orderly, all of it. Nowadays it's far more pragmatic and less restrictive of course, but there are still two prisons in active use.

OliverJones 10y ago

This reduction in prison population is, at root, a consequence of ending drug prohibition. In the US, state voters are working on this in places like Colorado, Washington, and now my home state, Massachusetts. So far, voters have had to do it. Legislatures can't, yet, do it, because the vested special interests in continuing prohibition are too strong. I'm sure somebody can speak for California; I don't know much about the situation there. The Washington cannabis-legalization model is based on a juridical argument: it's crazy to kick young people to the curb, take away their scholarships, and throw them in jail, for pot smoking, even though smoking pot is harmful. It wastes time and distracts the police from dealing with worse stuff like "human trafficking" (kidnapping teens and compelling them to work in the sex trade) and domestic violence. The Colorado / Massachusetts model is based on a recreational argument. Cannabis is safer and less harmful than alcohol. People will use substances for fun. The less harmful those substances are, the better. Both models involve regulation: purity, labeling, "carding" kids to keep them away from the stuff. Both involve taxation. The recreational model is harder to use when arguing to end the prohibition of other drugs. Heroin and cocaine are, in fact, safer than alcohol when criminal gangs aren't involved in delivering them to users. The statistics come from experiments in various places where clinical decriminalization has been tried. But that's a very hard argument to make. The juridical argument is easier to use to convince people. Both models cut down on police work, court work, and prison populations. As prohibition gradually contracts, lots of people will find themselves out of work: El Chapo and his cartel gangs, the Crips and Bloods, local gangs like the Insane Unknowns (who controlled the neighborhood where I lived as a graduate student on the south side of Chicago), police, probation workers, prison workers, and so forth. People resist being thrown out of work, so eliminating prohibition will take another generation. People with access to legislatures (police, court, prison people) will resist there. The other side will fight it in the streets. But it will happen. More info? Chasing the Scream, by Johann Hari. http://www.worldcat.org/title/chasing-the-scream-the-first-and-last-days-of-the-war-on-drugs/oclc/881418255 http://www.worldcat.org/title/chasing-the-scream-the-first-a...

petra 10y ago
Heroin and Cocaine are safer than Alcohol ? Can you share some info please ?

deleted 10y ago

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puravidas 10y ago

Their system makes you feel like an asshole if you're a bad guy.

deadbunny 10y ago
Well isn't that basically par for the course if you're going to break the rules?
- gcp 10y ago
  No sometimes they elect you president.

tyfon 10y ago

Norwegian here. We are actually renting a whole prison complex in Netherlands to get our own queues down without investing. https://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norsk-fengsel-i-nederland-1.12110632 https://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norsk-fengsel-i-nederland-1.12110... (Translate it with your favorite tool)

messo 10y ago

The Netherlands is actually renting out prisons to Norway (and others). Norwegian prisons are famously comfortable and aimed at rehabilitation (https://youtu.be/01mTKDaKa6Q?t=4m18s https://youtu.be/01mTKDaKa6Q?t=4m18s) but we still have draconian drug laws (thanks to the US) that keep filling up the few prisons we do have. Half of our prison population is in for drug-related crimes. Luckily this is about to change, as our minister of health recently proposed to copy what Portugal has done – decriminalize all drug use and move all drug related problems to the health system, not the judicial system. To bad for the Netherlands – they will probably loose a good customer.

kaared 10y ago
According to https://www.ssb.no/fengsling/ https://www.ssb.no/fengsling/, for 2014 only 25% of inmates were incarcerated due to drug crimes. Of new incarcerations in 2014, drug crimes represented about 18% (because of other shorter sentences, e.g. traffic or financial crimes).

finid 10y ago

If somebody has a drug problem we treat their addiction, if they are aggressive we provide anger management, if they have got money problems we give them debt counselling. So we try to remove whatever it was that caused the crime. Here's hoping that they don't privatize prisons, like we have in the US.

thght 10y ago

What a lie this is.. In reality there is the decade old problem that the Dutch justice system cannot handle the amount of criminals. Not enough judges and money for that. Partly because of this it has become very hard in the Netherlands to even file a police report for light to medium weight crimes committed to you. Police simply send you away if a crime is not heavy enough in their opinion. Criminals walk free on the street, and when they are caught they most often are back on the street the same day, unless it is a real serious crime of course. At some point they even decided not to file a police report below 3Kg of cocaine smuggling from the Dutch Antilles. Why? There were just too many doing it and the justice system couldn't handle it.. The Netherlands in reality has a very high crime rate, but the government found smart ways to conceal that.

rwmj 10y ago
The actual policy about the 3kg of cocaine is much more interesting and rather different from what you state. From http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTHAITI/Resources/CaribbeanC&VChapter7.pdf http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTHAITI/Resources/Caribb... > 7.13. Toward this end, the “100% Control” policy was implemented, in which flights landing in Schiphol originating from the Dutch Caribbean, Suriname, or Venezuela are subject to extensive searches. Rather than attempting to scare off potential smugglers with the threat of incarceration, the Dutch approach was based on increasing the rate of interdiction to the point that smuggling becomes unprofitable. In other words, the focus was on the drugs, rather than the couriers, and was based on incapacitation, rather than traditional deterrence. Europol described the mechanics of the policy in this way: > > Crews, passengers, their luggage, the cargo and the planes are systematically searched. Couriers with amounts of less than 3 kg of cocaine are not detained, unless they are arrested for the second time or another criminal offense is involved. Instead, the drugs are confiscated and the smugglers are sent back. Couriers who have been identified are registered on a blacklist, which is provided to KLM, Dutch Caribbean Airlines and Suriname Airways.
- thght 10y ago
  You must be very naive to believe all that.. The actual amount of cocaine smuggled into the Netherlands is currently higher than ever before. Also, the street value for 3Kg of cocaine is far above 50.000 euro's, do you realise how poor the people of the Dutch Antilles are? Without even a police report and a free ride back it's a clear invitation. And I didn't even mention the corrupt airport security, some of them make a sweet income out of this. It is definitely not "100% control", at all..

humbleMouse 10y ago

Anecdotally, I have been in jail in the netherlands before, and it's honestly not that bad of a place to be. Delicious food, thick mattresses, private cells. Also, all the surfaces are painted pink/yellow/white because those colors have been shown to calm people who are locked up.

thecynh 10y ago
Mind sharing what for? I assume it is quite a different experience depending on what you are "in" for?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

jandrese 10y ago

The article says right at the top that a significant chunk of the decline is the police turning an blind eye towards drug use and even trafficking. I wonder how much their immigration policy has to do with it as well? If they were accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees from war torn countries their crime rate might not be so low.

Scarblac 10y ago
Refugees in general have a very low crime rate. They just escaped a war, get help that they're thankful for and want to get their lives on track in their new country. It's the illegal immigrants for economic reasons that find life is very hard that are a problem.