11 ms·

I don't mind homework, but companies need to start specifying their salary range up front. I've been having a lot of time wasted lately by getting through Tech

I don't mind homework, but companies need to start specifying their salary range up front. I've been having a lot of time wasted lately by getting through Tech Interview #1 or Homework #1, only to find out their max salary is laughable for San Francisco. "You should just find that out upfront" I hear you saying. Well that is not always possible. Recruiters either don't know the range, or lie about not knowing, or you have to submit a big packet of info (cover letter, history, resume, homework) before you can even talk to a human about salary.

ryandrake 10y ago
This is true, and one of the worst inefficiencies you encounter as a candidate (and probably as an employer, I don't know): There's so much song and dance that has to go on before you get to the meat of things: Compensation. Companies could easily solve this by posting clear salary ranges, but most just don't. Another thing that companies could do better is think really hard about "required" and "desired" skills, and be truthful. Lots of companies list things as required which they're probably willing to bend on for the right candidate. All this does is scare off potential candidates (odd when you're complaining about that mythical shortage of engineers). On the other hand, recent events have encouraged me to not be afraid to apply for jobs that I'm unqualified for :) so maybe it's not such a big deal.
- peteretep 10y ago
  > There's so much song and dance that has to go on > before you get to the meat of things This can be an advantage of using an external recruiter, because they sure as shit know what their potential cut of the revenue will be.
jtwebman 10y ago
I agree, I always ask what the salary range is and if they are not willing to give it I tell them I am not willing to go any father in the interview process. They say then if they really want to interview you.
ubernostrum 10y ago
In addition to salary range up-front: find out up-front if they're actually hiring you, or want to do the "contract for a while, then maybe we'll hire you for real" thing. I had to say no late in the process to several companies which offered me the contracting-to-maybe-hire dance.
- bojo 10y ago
  I had an incredibly bad experience with this recently. They failed to do the end-of-contract review on time, extended the contract period numerous times after, and when they finally got around to the review said, "we're not a good fit." I actually liked the people and the job, but got the distinct impression it was just a team full of devs that wanted a devops to clean up their terrible infrastructure mess, future proof it, and then let them go. Never again will I do contract-to-maybe-hire.
peteretep 10y ago
Recruiter here with a history of working as a developer > but companies need to start specifying their salary > range up front The costs outweigh the benefits for employers (encouraging existing employees to ask for more money, losing candidates who will accept significantly less but wouldn't apply at a lower range, etc) -- so don't hold your breath. > I've been having a lot of time wasted lately by > getting through Tech Interview #1 or Homework #1, only > to find out their max salary is laughable for San > Francisco. State it upfront when you submit your application, rather than "find that out": "I am interested in roles paying above my current salary of $xxx,xxx only, and am looking for an improvement on that to reflect my increased experience and the risk of moving roles" > Recruiters either don't know the range Yeah they do. > or lie about not knowing "Could you tell me about offers you've previously made for this client?" They may also be lying about actually being authorized to recruit for the role(!!!) so consider asking them for a copy of the technical specification. If it's a larger company, ask what the salary banding and official job title for the range is, then head to Glassdoor. > you have to submit a big packet of info (cover letter, > history, resume, homework) before you can even talk to > a human about salary I had a hunch that roles like this weren't worth applying for when I was a developer. As a recruiter, this has been almost completely confirmed.
- dclowd9901 10y ago
  "The costs outweigh the benefits for employers" That's funny, I thought this was a employee's market... Better get with the program, bub. I'm actually in favor of 100% transparent salaries. I've yet to hear a compelling argument against it that wasn't simply "it feels icky."
  - peteretep 10y ago
    > I'm actually in favor of 100% transparent salaries. > I've yet to hear a compelling argument against it > that wasn't simply "it feels icky." I have no strong feeling at all on them, but generally when I find myself unable to make a strong case for or against a divisive issue, and can't think of any compelling arguments either way, it's indicative that I haven't researched it properly, or am simply discarding perspectives that don't agree with my existing biases.
nixme 10y ago
Have you tried hired.com ?
arielweisberg 10y ago
100% This. I just wasted a bunch of time extracting an offer from one of AmaGooFaceFlix. Supposedly a top SV company with good compensation. Got an awful offer to relocate to an area where 1/4 to 1/2 the house costs twice as much and I would no longer be able to work from home. I would also lose a significant portion of my life commuting. The offer was comparable to what I made working remote from Boston. I don't mean comparable in the sense that they tacked on a CA bump to handle the cost. Comparable as in same money, but I would have to live in CA. Ended up working remote for more somewhere else. Everyone's time wasted. I don't get it at all. It's not like they didn't know it was low.
- toephu2 10y ago
  Sounds like Amazon?
  - mrep 10y ago
    Re-read (it is an odd wording): "1/4 to 1/2 the house costs twice as much". He also said SV Seattle is not even close to being as bad as silicon valley in housing costs.
  - arielweisberg 10y ago
    I don't publicly shame current or past employers as well as potential employers. It's why I listed multiple companies. You will have to reach out to me on some other medium to get details.
  - philovivero 10y ago
    My guess: Facebook. I talked to them. I flew out. I spent the entire day on their campus and ate a really nice lunch. I wasted my time with them. They were excited to hire me for about $45k/yr less than I was already making. But don't worry, they'll make it up with about $10k/yr of stock grants which you don't get until you've worked there 4 years. I picked another lesser-known company and am making - no shit - about $70k/yr more than Facebook was offering. With stock grants that also might be worth about $50k after 4 years, though admittedly, the stocks are a much bigger gamble in this case.
dgudkov 10y ago
Alternatively, you can specify your expectations up front. It doesn't have to be an exact number, just a hint -- e.g. "No talk if the salary isn't well north of 100K".
- user5994461 10y ago
  You're anchoring them to offer you 100k. Pretty sure that's not what you wanted to do ^^
  - dgudkov 10y ago
    "Well north of" are the key words here.
user5994461 10y ago
Most companies pay poorly. If you are in the higher range of salary, you gotta find out which local employers/industries are worth talking to and limit your application to them. There probably aren't many.

ryandrake 10y ago

This is true, and one of the worst inefficiencies you encounter as a candidate (and probably as an employer, I don't know): There's so much song and dance that has to go on before you get to the meat of things: Compensation. Companies could easily solve this by posting clear salary ranges, but most just don't. Another thing that companies could do better is think really hard about "required" and "desired" skills, and be truthful. Lots of companies list things as required which they're probably willing to bend on for the right candidate. All this does is scare off potential candidates (odd when you're complaining about that mythical shortage of engineers). On the other hand, recent events have encouraged me to not be afraid to apply for jobs that I'm unqualified for :) so maybe it's not such a big deal.

peteretep 10y ago
> There's so much song and dance that has to go on > before you get to the meat of things This can be an advantage of using an external recruiter, because they sure as shit know what their potential cut of the revenue will be.

jtwebman 10y ago

I agree, I always ask what the salary range is and if they are not willing to give it I tell them I am not willing to go any father in the interview process. They say then if they really want to interview you.

ubernostrum 10y ago

In addition to salary range up-front: find out up-front if they're actually hiring you, or want to do the "contract for a while, then maybe we'll hire you for real" thing. I had to say no late in the process to several companies which offered me the contracting-to-maybe-hire dance.

bojo 10y ago
I had an incredibly bad experience with this recently. They failed to do the end-of-contract review on time, extended the contract period numerous times after, and when they finally got around to the review said, "we're not a good fit." I actually liked the people and the job, but got the distinct impression it was just a team full of devs that wanted a devops to clean up their terrible infrastructure mess, future proof it, and then let them go. Never again will I do contract-to-maybe-hire.

peteretep 10y ago

Recruiter here with a history of working as a developer > but companies need to start specifying their salary > range up front The costs outweigh the benefits for employers (encouraging existing employees to ask for more money, losing candidates who will accept significantly less but wouldn't apply at a lower range, etc) -- so don't hold your breath. > I've been having a lot of time wasted lately by > getting through Tech Interview #1 or Homework #1, only > to find out their max salary is laughable for San > Francisco. State it upfront when you submit your application, rather than "find that out": "I am interested in roles paying above my current salary of $xxx,xxx only, and am looking for an improvement on that to reflect my increased experience and the risk of moving roles" > Recruiters either don't know the range Yeah they do. > or lie about not knowing "Could you tell me about offers you've previously made for this client?" They may also be lying about actually being authorized to recruit for the role(!!!) so consider asking them for a copy of the technical specification. If it's a larger company, ask what the salary banding and official job title for the range is, then head to Glassdoor. > you have to submit a big packet of info (cover letter, > history, resume, homework) before you can even talk to > a human about salary I had a hunch that roles like this weren't worth applying for when I was a developer. As a recruiter, this has been almost completely confirmed.

dclowd9901 10y ago
"The costs outweigh the benefits for employers" That's funny, I thought this was a employee's market... Better get with the program, bub. I'm actually in favor of 100% transparent salaries. I've yet to hear a compelling argument against it that wasn't simply "it feels icky."
- peteretep 10y ago
  > I'm actually in favor of 100% transparent salaries. > I've yet to hear a compelling argument against it > that wasn't simply "it feels icky." I have no strong feeling at all on them, but generally when I find myself unable to make a strong case for or against a divisive issue, and can't think of any compelling arguments either way, it's indicative that I haven't researched it properly, or am simply discarding perspectives that don't agree with my existing biases.

nixme 10y ago

Have you tried hired.com ?

arielweisberg 10y ago

100% This. I just wasted a bunch of time extracting an offer from one of AmaGooFaceFlix. Supposedly a top SV company with good compensation. Got an awful offer to relocate to an area where 1/4 to 1/2 the house costs twice as much and I would no longer be able to work from home. I would also lose a significant portion of my life commuting. The offer was comparable to what I made working remote from Boston. I don't mean comparable in the sense that they tacked on a CA bump to handle the cost. Comparable as in same money, but I would have to live in CA. Ended up working remote for more somewhere else. Everyone's time wasted. I don't get it at all. It's not like they didn't know it was low.

toephu2 10y ago
Sounds like Amazon?
- mrep 10y ago
  Re-read (it is an odd wording): "1/4 to 1/2 the house costs twice as much". He also said SV Seattle is not even close to being as bad as silicon valley in housing costs.
- arielweisberg 10y ago
  I don't publicly shame current or past employers as well as potential employers. It's why I listed multiple companies. You will have to reach out to me on some other medium to get details.
- philovivero 10y ago
  My guess: Facebook. I talked to them. I flew out. I spent the entire day on their campus and ate a really nice lunch. I wasted my time with them. They were excited to hire me for about $45k/yr less than I was already making. But don't worry, they'll make it up with about $10k/yr of stock grants which you don't get until you've worked there 4 years. I picked another lesser-known company and am making - no shit - about $70k/yr more than Facebook was offering. With stock grants that also might be worth about $50k after 4 years, though admittedly, the stocks are a much bigger gamble in this case.

dgudkov 10y ago

Alternatively, you can specify your expectations up front. It doesn't have to be an exact number, just a hint -- e.g. "No talk if the salary isn't well north of 100K".

user5994461 10y ago
You're anchoring them to offer you 100k. Pretty sure that's not what you wanted to do ^^
- dgudkov 10y ago
  "Well north of" are the key words here.

user5994461 10y ago

Most companies pay poorly. If you are in the higher range of salary, you gotta find out which local employers/industries are worth talking to and limit your application to them. There probably aren't many.