21 ms·

As a brown Indian dude, it seems to me that the western world is caught in some self-hating loop. It simultaneously trivializes my culture while hating its own

As a brown Indian dude, it seems to me that the western world is caught in some self-hating loop. It simultaneously trivializes my culture while hating its own culture. I watched Justin Trudeau dance the bhangra and people claim "oh what beautiful Indian culture". I've seen people eat butter chicken to partake in "Indian culture" experiences. That's just wrong. Indian culture - any culture - is far, far more than a dance or some dish. At the same time, I see white people negate their culture altogether. It might have been built on colonialism and imperialism, but what, say, Renaissance artists pulled off is significant, very significant. Everyone needs to back off and think about this for a bit

matt_wulfeck 10y ago
> That's just wrong. Indian culture - and culture - is far, far more than a dance or some dish. Maybe now you start to see the "damned if you do damned if you don't" nature of political correctness, and why it has been rejected in this election cycle with great success.
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  There are right wing versions of political correctness. Try saying that immigrants aren't a problem at a Republican rally. Or saying that women have a right to choose. Or that homosexuals should be able to marry. Then watch how quickly right wingers jumps down your throat for not being politically correct.
  - noobermin 10y ago
    Or how climate change is borne out by the facts, or how blacks were enslaved for hundreds of years by whites, or the crusades happened, on and on and on. Everyone has their own little safe-space and their own desire to stifle others speech (voter suppression?). Just some hard statements follow from fact and some do not.
    - hueving 10y ago
      >how blacks were enslaved for hundreds of years by whites You have no idea what you are talking about if you think this point is disputed by any majority of Republicans. It's like saying, "'People should contribute to society' triggers all liberals."
      - noobermin 10y ago
        It's a fact that makes people uncomfortable. Similar to facts like "women on average have less muscle mass than men." And I think you'd agree that people from the right would jump on someone who disputed the muscle mass fact as "out-of-control political correctness." There are facts and there are non-facts. That women have less muscle mass on average is a fact. "Mexico sends their rapists" is not a fact.
        rtx 10y ago
        "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
        noobermin 10y ago
        Which...is not a fact. That's my point.
    - acqq 10y ago
      > or the crusades happened The ones who got morally wronged by the crusades are actually the Christian nations of the East Roman Empire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Constantinople_(1204) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Constantinople_(1204) What is your vision of the wrongness of the crusades? It's certainly not that the religion which had spread itself with the wars across the outer lands of the East Roman Empire on the promises of 72 virgins for its fighters and the war until the whole world submits to their rules (the name of the religion means "the submission") was morally right.
  - toyg 10y ago
    You are confusing shared ideology with PC. The point of PC is that it's bipartisan (or "hegemon", in a vocabulary we should rediscover). Every group will have its taboos and shared beliefs, that's not PC.
  - laughfactory 10y ago
    Gonna have to disagree with you here. Some "right wingers" might, but not all. There's an awful lot of gradient on the right side of the spectrum (just as there is on the left). Immigrants aren't the problem for most "right wingers." Illegal immigrants are. Women having the right to choose is only a problem if you expect a woman's right to choose to extend to extinguishing the life of a fetus at any stage of pregnancy. Many "right wingers" are liberal on this up to a point (say the first trimester). Many "right wingers" (probably not extreme right wing, but still) are socially quite liberal and support gay marriage. So... I disagree with all your points. But I can see that this election, especially, has polarized people to the extreme. Rather than seeing the gradient on either side, everyone is seeing every person who votes for Trump as an evil person; and likewise, every person who votes for Clinton as corrupt. In order to move forward we need to come to terms with this gradient in our individual values again. We need to realize that there are fiscally conservative Democrats, and socially liberal Republicans. When we can do that then we can get back to compromising to mutually beneficial outcomes. And if we cannot do that then we, as a country, are in deep s--t no matter who is running the country.
    - throwaway-hn123 10y ago
      > Immigrants aren't the problem for most "right wingers." Illegal immigrants are. Ah, I needed that laugh. Thanks, I appreciate it.
    - pmoriarty 10y ago
      That's a good point, and I was wrong to paint all right wingers with the same brush. They are in fact quite varied, as you point out. My larger point still stands, however. I still maintain that you'd get in trouble saying the kinds of things I said at a Republican rally because of political correctness that many (though not all) right wingers adhere to. Even if those particular examples weren't the best, there are plenty more where those came from. Try saying you don't support the military. Try saying that burning the American flag is a form of free speech. Try saying that Clinton is a better candidate than Trump, and so on.
      - laughfactory 10y ago
  - WillPostForFood 10y ago
    That's totally not true. The WSJ, one of the leading conservative papers/voices, is very pro-immigration. Senators like McCain and Rubio almost got an immigration bill though Obama. There are pro-choice republican senators (Collins, Murkowski). And there are some that support gay marriage, include Rob Portman, and the reviled Dick Cheney. These are minority opinions, but the discussion is allowed.
    - makomk 10y ago
      An important part of Clinton's campaign strategy and that of the Democrat establishment in general is to try and discredit and marginalise Republicans like Rubio. We know this from documents obtained by Wikileaks that talk about tactics like bringing into question Rubio's Republican credentials and support amongst Latinos while building up Trump and other joke candidates as credible opponents. We all know how well that turned out.
    - pmoriarty 10y ago
      And how is the WSJ's pro-immigration stance seen in the Republican party as a whole? Do pro-choice Republicans actually speak out and get much of a hearing on their pro-choice views at major Republican rallies? If so, what kind of reception do they get?
  - imaok 10y ago
    I think the difference is that if you say those things at a Republican rally you know what you're getting into. The thing that I think is really off-putting about a certain brand of political correctness (which include the post by puranjay) is when well-meaning people with no ill-intention are chastised as ignorant at best, bigots at worst. For example the post by puranjay, what exactly does he want? It's not reasonable to expect everyone to know everything about every other culture. It's just going to make people resentful.
  - avisser 10y ago
    > Then watch how quickly right wingers jumps down your throat for not being politically correct. I heard a great phrase on This American Life last week: Patriotically Correct. The Trumpian inverse of politically correct.
wibr 10y ago
Of course culture is more than food or dance, but what's wrong with trying those as a way to have a glimpse into the Indian culture? I don't think anyone claimed to be expert on Indian culture after having a butter chicken. What would you propose instead?
- puranjay 10y ago
  Because this perspective looks at all the positive aspects of my culture while assuming there are no negatives (there are MANY). It sacrifices objectivity for political correctness. I'd rather hear people tell me "yeah, your food might be amazing, but you guys need to treat your women better", instead of saying "wow! I love Indian culture!" at some Holi event
  - eecc 10y ago
    This
  - whydidtrumpwin 10y ago
    http://howdiddonaldtrumpwin.com/ http://howdiddonaldtrumpwin.com/
  - noobermin 10y ago
    You could literally say that about any culture. No one is trying to fully emulate your culture. To be honest, when people are curious about me, I am flattered.
  - notahacker 10y ago
    I suspect that you're in a minority of Indians that think comments from white guys who's understanding of Indian culture(s) doesn't go much beyond butter chicken and arranged marriages opining on Indian cultural problems with women would be helpful though. Even if we're focusing on Indians that agree that India has unique cultural problems with the treatment of women. And one of the driving forces behind Trump's success is a whole lot of foreign/liberal/establishment/non-insider figures pontificating about how that sort of person's culture must be pretty messed up if Trump is expected to pick up votes from them. (Just because a point of view is justified doesn't mean it doesn't provoke a backlash)
ZenoArrow 10y ago
It's not about culture, people are still fine with their culture, it's about economics. Globalisation and corruption has caused a lot more instability for the working class. If you look at polls about what the number one issue was you'll see it's the economy, that's the main thing people are concerned about.
- lsc 10y ago
  Instability? or the level of opportunity? That's the thing that confused me; it seems to me that introducing a radical to politics would cause more instability; It also seems to me like the economy has been improving by just about all measures for nearly all of Obama's term; especially if you measure improvement in terms of unemployment and the like. Most of the economic problems we have now are problems that the left would complain about. The rich make a lot more than the poor... and the GOP is promising more of that, not less, and the GOP won, so the 'it's the economy' model doesn't really fit.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    > "The rich make a lot more than the poor... and the GOP is promising more of that, not less, and the GOP won, so the 'it's the economy' model doesn't really fit." Here's the thing with Trump, he held so many conflicting policy positions over the course of the election, and was held to account so little by the mainstream media, that Trump supporters could basically line up with whichever of his policies they liked the most. People can ignore promises like tax breaks for the rich when he's promising to bring jobs back to the US. Also, as I said in another comment, this wasn't a pro-Trump victory, it was an anti-Clinton victory, and Clinton has been disastrous with the US economy. She had no compelling rebuttal regarding her support for NAFTA and TPP, the huge (political and economic) disasters of the Iraq war, and had very close ties to Wall Street deregulation that was at the core of the 2008 recession. Clearly business as usual was not going to cut it, and Trump was boosted by that discontent.
    - lsc 10y ago
      >Clearly business as usual was not going to cut it, This is clearly the real disconnect. I think things are going just fine, and the statistics I read say that, well, things are getting better, mostly, for most other people, too. But then, I think free trade is great, and have no problem with NAFTA, just like almost everyone in the political establishment. I thought that protectionism was kind of a fringe thing. Clearly it's not, but that is what I thought before this election.
StavrosK 10y ago
Yo, americans aren't the only "white people".
- pessimizer 10y ago
  White people in the US have a common identity that people around the world who would be classified as white if they moved here (and lost their origin accent) don't have. It was largely formed by dehumanizing natives, black slaves and Chinese immigrants. Until recently, it didn't include Catholics (Irish, Italians, Spanish) or Slavs, and was deeply suspicious of Germans and other Central Europeans until after WWII. Europe's cultures are based on shared myths, traditions, practices, and values. "White" culture in the US is based on shared myths about race, shared traditions of racial exclusion of minorities (and guilt over it), and their practices and values are not distributed any differently than any other group that has been in the US for 3-4 generations (a large proportion of US whites are descended from fairly recent European immigrants.)
  - StavrosK 10y ago
    This made me realize that whenever I see "white people" and "black people" online, the author actually means "white/black americans" It took me years and quite a few misunderstandings to realize this, so thanks for that.
RandomInteger4 10y ago
You do realize that what the great renaissance intellectuals created, the right wing in the united stated looks down upon and scoffs at, right? They hate anything to do with art or culture unless it's their version of Christianity. This is the same attitude of Boko Haram. The left wing doesn't dismiss the great cultural achievements the west has created, but we try to create space for them within a nation known for accepting immigrants, rather than forcefully imposing our culture on them, which seems to have failed so brilliantly in places like France. The politicians trivialize this shit, because they pander to the voters. The left embraces other cultures because we're sick of getting Christianity shoved down our throats.
- oldhermit 10y ago
  Except the left pulls their classic double standard with stuff like being incredibly accepting of Muslim immigrants/refugees and their ideologies, yet not being anywhere near as tolerant of Christianity, when likely the two religions have more in common than the left wing does with the former. And as it turns out, people like being surrounded by others that share their values, speak their language, look like them, and enjoy the same activities as they do. There's no shame in wanting a group identity. The christian right wing is just tired of everybody else's identity being legitimized except for theirs.
  - RandomInteger4 10y ago
    What you people don't seem to understand is that we have a first fucking amendment. The first amendment states that there is a freedom of religion. People are allowed to have their own religions. What you see on the left as being somehow more accepting of Muslims, is actually people on the left having empathy for a group that is constantly demonized, to the point that psychopathic racists murder and plot to murder sikhs because they're too fucking stupid to understand the differences between one brown person and another. Give me a fucking break with your bullshit. Let me guess as well, someone among you will report this fucking comment, while in another railing against PC fucking culture; fuck off!
    - 10y ago
modarts 10y ago
Not sure how electing an openly racist, sexist, vengeful narcissist furthers that goal, but okay.
- tluyben2 10y ago
  Exactly; I understand an 'against' or 'maybe this will change things' vote, but not actually supporting the man.
- PKop 10y ago
  Plain and simply, we don't agree on your labels and your assessments of his character. It's not complicated.
  - danieldk 10y ago
    Just wondering: you don't find his 'blood coming out of...' comment openly sexist? If not, I am wondering what is?
    - tnmrnis 10y ago
      There is a difference between attacking people because of their sex or by insulting them based on their sex. First is definitively sexist, the latter is arguable.
      - foldr 10y ago
        He was suggesting that Megan Kelley was asking him tough questions because she was on her period.
        tnmrnis 10y ago
        He was suggesting that Megyn Kelly was asking him though questions and that the reason for this was that she is on her period. There is a very subtle but important difference. He attacked her for asking supposedly though questions, not for being on her period. First was the reason of his attack. Latter was the means of his attack.
TheArcane 10y ago
Speaking of India, the election of Modi further confirms the Brexit-Trump trend.
- actuator 10y ago
  Slightly because Modi comes from a centrist-right party but people voted for his party because there was no other viable option and he had done good work before.
- toyg 10y ago
  Putin, Erdogan firmly in power, right-wing holding on in Australia, a semi-golpe in Brazil... nationalism is on top, at the moment.
  - oblio 10y ago
    Russia and Turkey have always been (rampantly) nationalist. Russia had a short failed episode of opening up with Yeltsin while Turkey has been letting Ataturk (and the few reforming sultans in the late period of the Ottoman empire) down ever since he died. Even the USSR was extremely nationalistic, albeit thinly veiled behind "internationalism".
    - guard-of-terra 10y ago
      Nationalistic of what nation? Russia is not nationalistic, Russia is permanently confused since 1917.
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    Putin was never elected in competitive election. Brexit was competitive, Hillary-Trump competitive, Modi perhaps, Putin elections weren't. Not in 2000, not in 2004 and certainly not in 2012.
    - legolas2412 10y ago
      Are you confusing competitive with credibility? Modi's election was comprehensive and with no competition, but it was also a legitimate voice of the nation. I'm not sure I could say the same for Putin, but his approval ratings remain high.
derefr 10y ago
> That's just wrong. Indian culture - and culture - is far, far more than a dance or some dish. I think there's a key concept missing from every discussion about culture, and that concept is that "X immigrant culture" is a completely different culture from "X culture." Indians in India have one culture, while Indians in e.g. Britain have a related, but divergent culture. Two places this matters: • Frequently, the people of "X immigrant culture" care a lot about 'preserving their heritage', because it's a constant struggle for them—while the people of "X culture" couldn't give a damn, because they're constantly steeped in their own culture and it's not going away. "Cultural appropriation" is an invention almost entirely of immigrant cultures. • People "exploring a culture" frequently have the implicit goal of exploring the domestic-immigrant offshoot of a culture, not the native one. Because of the lack of connection and cultural touchstone organizations that immigrants face, things like dances and dishes are seen as far more relevant in immigrant cultures, similar to their role in itinerant cultures.
- Pyxl101 10y ago
  > Frequently, the people of "X immigrant culture" care a lot about 'preserving their heritage', because it's a constant struggle for them A friend of mine who is a first generation Indian immigrant observed exactly same thing. He noticed his conservative Indian parents had become more extreme in their beliefs over time, as a sort of reaction against American culture. His parents feel a bit closed off from the rest of American society since they never fully integrated. However, simultaneously, he noticed that when he went to India, people there were actually becoming more liberal and tolerant over time, as compared to his parents who were becoming more traditional. A very interesting phenomenon.
  - Moru 10y ago
    Yes, this has been observed many times here in Europe. People that come to a new culture they hated suddenly find themselves in a spot where the food and culture from the homecountry is more important than it ever was when they lived back home. Even germans start importing stuff to Sweden because that sausage they always hated back home is so much better than anything they can buy here in Sweden. And people that never cooked before start searching for ways to recreate the tastes from grandmas cooking. People from cultures that wear something over the head does so much more in the new country while the home country is starting to loosen up. Even though this is exactly why they moved away in the first place. (We have friends from Somalia, Germany, Turkey, Russia, Egypt and then some, that describe this for us)
oldhermit 10y ago
White guilt is a large reason why white people are afraid to assert themselves and their racial identity. You're basically labeled a bigot if you don't support the cause of nihilistic globalism and moral leveling.
- RandomInteger4 10y ago
  No, the fucking problem is that you fucking racists want to group all god damned white people under some monolithic banner of whiteness and call that a fucking culture. It's the god damned racists in this fucking country that have erased or at least attempted to erase the ethnic origins of groups you place under the banner of whiteness. German? No, you're white now. Irish? Nope, white. Italian? Nope, white. Because remember, it's apparently whites against blacks right? How about you fuckers stop trying to make this a black and white world and instead just fuck off back into your caves and under your rocks where your survivalist bunkers are. So fucking sick of you confederate flag waving mother fuckers.
  - laughfactory 10y ago
    Geez us, man. Get a grip. People like you who are blinded by rage are a big part of what's wrong with this country. You scream at someone for being a "fucking racist" and believe you hold the moral high ground? Are you kidding me? In my book your behavior is every bit as bad as the worst kind of bigotry and racism I've ever been exposed to. After reading your rant I need to go wash my eyes out with soap.
    - exclusiv 10y ago
      So true. Progressive and tolerant on the far left (so long as you share the same views)
  - muad 10y ago
    Triggered.
  - imtringued 10y ago
    I'm wondering how many people will continue to commit the mistake of not differentiating between individuals and groups. On average the group X might have property Y but that doesn't mean every individual has property Y. It doesn't make sense to differentiate individuals by the group they belong to. It makes sense to differentiate individuals by their properties directly.
PKop 10y ago
This is the most concise explanation for what many on the left fail to grasp, and one of the many reasons why I and many are Trump supporters. We are on one hand supposed to respect and honor other cultures, but are not allowed to cultivate, maintain and respect our own (American) culture. Which is absurd for many reasons... one being it denies a very real reason for many wanting to come to our country, or fails to identify the characteristics that made western culture generally preferable to many others. I appreciate your perspective on this issue.
- angstrom 10y ago
  I've driven across the US three times. American culture is largely gone, coopted by cookie cutter homes, strip malls and wal-marts. It's a beautiful country though.
  - gph 10y ago
    I disagree. American culture is still very much there, it just doesn't exist within the corporate/commercial realm. I think something people always seem to overlook is that there never really was a singular American culture. The different regions have had very distinct cultures. I've been to Polish festivals across the Midwest, large bbq/cookouts in the south, and plenty of bluegrass festivals around appalachia. There's plenty of culture around. It's just not at the surface anymore now that mass media and other interests have sort of taken control of that arena.
    - seanp2k2 10y ago
      And in California, music festivals and underground parties, all the swimming holes around Yuba, Tahoe (not the touristy stuff), countless other hippie hang-outs... And that's just a specific sub-culture in NorCal. I'm sure tons of similar things exist around the US, but the California one is pretty awesome and does reach to other places in the world (Hawaii, Costa Rica, Bali, etc)
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
buzzybee 10y ago
I've thought lately that the cosmopolitan outlook, which I do hold and generally enjoy, is also a rootless one. In accepting the ever-present change, respecting the multitude of outlooks, it often denies connecting with traditions in favor of a single "modern, rational, progressive" view that buries its internal contradictions beneath fleeting surface treasures. At the same time, it supports the imperial concept of misappropriating original traditions as a convenient fancy, a reference to the exotic, or a belittling of the other, which you give a great example of - with the pretext that this is somehow contributing to progress. Appropriation can be "done right" and produce great new works, but it can't be done easily. It's so much easier to simply loot the past without thinking. One of the books I like that considers similar thoughts at various points is Melzer's Philosophy Between the Lines: The Lost History of Esoteric Philosophy. [0] [0] http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/P/bo18692306.html http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/P/bo186...
- johnny22 10y ago
  Ah, i guess it is a rootless one. I never really thought (directly) about it. I've never cared where my ancestors came from. I always like the idea of an America that was always changing who it was.
endisukaj 10y ago
The thing about negating white culture is prevalent only in the US. Most Europeans are fiercely proud of their culture and nation.
- efaref 10y ago
  Except the English, where our national flag has acquired connotations of racism.
  - endisukaj 10y ago
    Really? Didn't know anything about that. Did it start with Brexit?
    - kagamine 10y ago
      It ended with Brexit and started with football hooliganism and skinheads (not the reggae loving kind) 30 years ago.
  - legolas2412 10y ago
    I doubt that. Theresa May comes to India and talks about better trade relations because of "our shared past". Either she is naive and stupid or she really loves her colonial loot. Nobody in India wants to be reminded of our servitude in the "shared-past".
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      Maybe she isn't referring purely to servitude? That's your interpretation.
  - cmiller1 10y ago
    Yeah, the English are the only ones who are afraid of nationalism... I think you might be forgetting about at least one other country.
    - 10y ago
RangerScience 10y ago
You know, this is kind of inspiring. I know where my blood comes from (Sicily and WASP), and I know where I grew up and got my ideas (Berkeley), but, it's not like I've really tried to turn into some kind of culture; I've participating in a thing that's been made into a culture (festivals), but that's not the same, is it? Hmm. Are there cultural world's fairs anymore?
notacoward 10y ago
> Indian culture - any culture - is far, far more than a dance or some dish. I think most people understand that. What do you think would be an improvement? Surely not that they fail even to appreciate the dance or the dish. It's not likely that they'll embark on a years-long quest to understand the deeper history, religion etc. of a dozen different cultures. What, really, would you have them do? Without a suggestion, you're just bashing.
artursapek 10y ago
Very well put. I've been extremely turned off by everything you described but couldn't put words to it that well.

matt_wulfeck 10y ago

> That's just wrong. Indian culture - and culture - is far, far more than a dance or some dish. Maybe now you start to see the "damned if you do damned if you don't" nature of political correctness, and why it has been rejected in this election cycle with great success.

pmoriarty 10y ago
There are right wing versions of political correctness. Try saying that immigrants aren't a problem at a Republican rally. Or saying that women have a right to choose. Or that homosexuals should be able to marry. Then watch how quickly right wingers jumps down your throat for not being politically correct.
- noobermin 10y ago
  Or how climate change is borne out by the facts, or how blacks were enslaved for hundreds of years by whites, or the crusades happened, on and on and on. Everyone has their own little safe-space and their own desire to stifle others speech (voter suppression?). Just some hard statements follow from fact and some do not.
  - hueving 10y ago
    >how blacks were enslaved for hundreds of years by whites You have no idea what you are talking about if you think this point is disputed by any majority of Republicans. It's like saying, "'People should contribute to society' triggers all liberals."
    - noobermin 10y ago
      It's a fact that makes people uncomfortable. Similar to facts like "women on average have less muscle mass than men." And I think you'd agree that people from the right would jump on someone who disputed the muscle mass fact as "out-of-control political correctness." There are facts and there are non-facts. That women have less muscle mass on average is a fact. "Mexico sends their rapists" is not a fact.
      - rtx 10y ago
        "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
        noobermin 10y ago
        Which...is not a fact. That's my point.
  - acqq 10y ago
    > or the crusades happened The ones who got morally wronged by the crusades are actually the Christian nations of the East Roman Empire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Constantinople_(1204) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Constantinople_(1204) What is your vision of the wrongness of the crusades? It's certainly not that the religion which had spread itself with the wars across the outer lands of the East Roman Empire on the promises of 72 virgins for its fighters and the war until the whole world submits to their rules (the name of the religion means "the submission") was morally right.
- toyg 10y ago
  You are confusing shared ideology with PC. The point of PC is that it's bipartisan (or "hegemon", in a vocabulary we should rediscover). Every group will have its taboos and shared beliefs, that's not PC.
- laughfactory 10y ago
  Gonna have to disagree with you here. Some "right wingers" might, but not all. There's an awful lot of gradient on the right side of the spectrum (just as there is on the left). Immigrants aren't the problem for most "right wingers." Illegal immigrants are. Women having the right to choose is only a problem if you expect a woman's right to choose to extend to extinguishing the life of a fetus at any stage of pregnancy. Many "right wingers" are liberal on this up to a point (say the first trimester). Many "right wingers" (probably not extreme right wing, but still) are socially quite liberal and support gay marriage. So... I disagree with all your points. But I can see that this election, especially, has polarized people to the extreme. Rather than seeing the gradient on either side, everyone is seeing every person who votes for Trump as an evil person; and likewise, every person who votes for Clinton as corrupt. In order to move forward we need to come to terms with this gradient in our individual values again. We need to realize that there are fiscally conservative Democrats, and socially liberal Republicans. When we can do that then we can get back to compromising to mutually beneficial outcomes. And if we cannot do that then we, as a country, are in deep s--t no matter who is running the country.
  - throwaway-hn123 10y ago
    > Immigrants aren't the problem for most "right wingers." Illegal immigrants are. Ah, I needed that laugh. Thanks, I appreciate it.
  - pmoriarty 10y ago
    That's a good point, and I was wrong to paint all right wingers with the same brush. They are in fact quite varied, as you point out. My larger point still stands, however. I still maintain that you'd get in trouble saying the kinds of things I said at a Republican rally because of political correctness that many (though not all) right wingers adhere to. Even if those particular examples weren't the best, there are plenty more where those came from. Try saying you don't support the military. Try saying that burning the American flag is a form of free speech. Try saying that Clinton is a better candidate than Trump, and so on.
    - laughfactory 10y ago
- WillPostForFood 10y ago
  That's totally not true. The WSJ, one of the leading conservative papers/voices, is very pro-immigration. Senators like McCain and Rubio almost got an immigration bill though Obama. There are pro-choice republican senators (Collins, Murkowski). And there are some that support gay marriage, include Rob Portman, and the reviled Dick Cheney. These are minority opinions, but the discussion is allowed.
  - makomk 10y ago
    An important part of Clinton's campaign strategy and that of the Democrat establishment in general is to try and discredit and marginalise Republicans like Rubio. We know this from documents obtained by Wikileaks that talk about tactics like bringing into question Rubio's Republican credentials and support amongst Latinos while building up Trump and other joke candidates as credible opponents. We all know how well that turned out.
  - pmoriarty 10y ago
    And how is the WSJ's pro-immigration stance seen in the Republican party as a whole? Do pro-choice Republicans actually speak out and get much of a hearing on their pro-choice views at major Republican rallies? If so, what kind of reception do they get?
- imaok 10y ago
  I think the difference is that if you say those things at a Republican rally you know what you're getting into. The thing that I think is really off-putting about a certain brand of political correctness (which include the post by puranjay) is when well-meaning people with no ill-intention are chastised as ignorant at best, bigots at worst. For example the post by puranjay, what exactly does he want? It's not reasonable to expect everyone to know everything about every other culture. It's just going to make people resentful.
- avisser 10y ago
  > Then watch how quickly right wingers jumps down your throat for not being politically correct. I heard a great phrase on This American Life last week: Patriotically Correct. The Trumpian inverse of politically correct.

wibr 10y ago

Of course culture is more than food or dance, but what's wrong with trying those as a way to have a glimpse into the Indian culture? I don't think anyone claimed to be expert on Indian culture after having a butter chicken. What would you propose instead?

puranjay 10y ago
Because this perspective looks at all the positive aspects of my culture while assuming there are no negatives (there are MANY). It sacrifices objectivity for political correctness. I'd rather hear people tell me "yeah, your food might be amazing, but you guys need to treat your women better", instead of saying "wow! I love Indian culture!" at some Holi event
- eecc 10y ago
  This
- whydidtrumpwin 10y ago
  http://howdiddonaldtrumpwin.com/ http://howdiddonaldtrumpwin.com/
- noobermin 10y ago
  You could literally say that about any culture. No one is trying to fully emulate your culture. To be honest, when people are curious about me, I am flattered.
- notahacker 10y ago
  I suspect that you're in a minority of Indians that think comments from white guys who's understanding of Indian culture(s) doesn't go much beyond butter chicken and arranged marriages opining on Indian cultural problems with women would be helpful though. Even if we're focusing on Indians that agree that India has unique cultural problems with the treatment of women. And one of the driving forces behind Trump's success is a whole lot of foreign/liberal/establishment/non-insider figures pontificating about how that sort of person's culture must be pretty messed up if Trump is expected to pick up votes from them. (Just because a point of view is justified doesn't mean it doesn't provoke a backlash)

ZenoArrow 10y ago

It's not about culture, people are still fine with their culture, it's about economics. Globalisation and corruption has caused a lot more instability for the working class. If you look at polls about what the number one issue was you'll see it's the economy, that's the main thing people are concerned about.

lsc 10y ago
Instability? or the level of opportunity? That's the thing that confused me; it seems to me that introducing a radical to politics would cause more instability; It also seems to me like the economy has been improving by just about all measures for nearly all of Obama's term; especially if you measure improvement in terms of unemployment and the like. Most of the economic problems we have now are problems that the left would complain about. The rich make a lot more than the poor... and the GOP is promising more of that, not less, and the GOP won, so the 'it's the economy' model doesn't really fit.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "The rich make a lot more than the poor... and the GOP is promising more of that, not less, and the GOP won, so the 'it's the economy' model doesn't really fit." Here's the thing with Trump, he held so many conflicting policy positions over the course of the election, and was held to account so little by the mainstream media, that Trump supporters could basically line up with whichever of his policies they liked the most. People can ignore promises like tax breaks for the rich when he's promising to bring jobs back to the US. Also, as I said in another comment, this wasn't a pro-Trump victory, it was an anti-Clinton victory, and Clinton has been disastrous with the US economy. She had no compelling rebuttal regarding her support for NAFTA and TPP, the huge (political and economic) disasters of the Iraq war, and had very close ties to Wall Street deregulation that was at the core of the 2008 recession. Clearly business as usual was not going to cut it, and Trump was boosted by that discontent.
  - lsc 10y ago
    >Clearly business as usual was not going to cut it, This is clearly the real disconnect. I think things are going just fine, and the statistics I read say that, well, things are getting better, mostly, for most other people, too. But then, I think free trade is great, and have no problem with NAFTA, just like almost everyone in the political establishment. I thought that protectionism was kind of a fringe thing. Clearly it's not, but that is what I thought before this election.

StavrosK 10y ago

Yo, americans aren't the only "white people".

pessimizer 10y ago
White people in the US have a common identity that people around the world who would be classified as white if they moved here (and lost their origin accent) don't have. It was largely formed by dehumanizing natives, black slaves and Chinese immigrants. Until recently, it didn't include Catholics (Irish, Italians, Spanish) or Slavs, and was deeply suspicious of Germans and other Central Europeans until after WWII. Europe's cultures are based on shared myths, traditions, practices, and values. "White" culture in the US is based on shared myths about race, shared traditions of racial exclusion of minorities (and guilt over it), and their practices and values are not distributed any differently than any other group that has been in the US for 3-4 generations (a large proportion of US whites are descended from fairly recent European immigrants.)
- StavrosK 10y ago
  This made me realize that whenever I see "white people" and "black people" online, the author actually means "white/black americans" It took me years and quite a few misunderstandings to realize this, so thanks for that.

RandomInteger4 10y ago

You do realize that what the great renaissance intellectuals created, the right wing in the united stated looks down upon and scoffs at, right? They hate anything to do with art or culture unless it's their version of Christianity. This is the same attitude of Boko Haram. The left wing doesn't dismiss the great cultural achievements the west has created, but we try to create space for them within a nation known for accepting immigrants, rather than forcefully imposing our culture on them, which seems to have failed so brilliantly in places like France. The politicians trivialize this shit, because they pander to the voters. The left embraces other cultures because we're sick of getting Christianity shoved down our throats.

oldhermit 10y ago
Except the left pulls their classic double standard with stuff like being incredibly accepting of Muslim immigrants/refugees and their ideologies, yet not being anywhere near as tolerant of Christianity, when likely the two religions have more in common than the left wing does with the former. And as it turns out, people like being surrounded by others that share their values, speak their language, look like them, and enjoy the same activities as they do. There's no shame in wanting a group identity. The christian right wing is just tired of everybody else's identity being legitimized except for theirs.
- RandomInteger4 10y ago
  What you people don't seem to understand is that we have a first fucking amendment. The first amendment states that there is a freedom of religion. People are allowed to have their own religions. What you see on the left as being somehow more accepting of Muslims, is actually people on the left having empathy for a group that is constantly demonized, to the point that psychopathic racists murder and plot to murder sikhs because they're too fucking stupid to understand the differences between one brown person and another. Give me a fucking break with your bullshit. Let me guess as well, someone among you will report this fucking comment, while in another railing against PC fucking culture; fuck off!
  - 10y ago

modarts 10y ago

Not sure how electing an openly racist, sexist, vengeful narcissist furthers that goal, but okay.

tluyben2 10y ago
Exactly; I understand an 'against' or 'maybe this will change things' vote, but not actually supporting the man.
PKop 10y ago
Plain and simply, we don't agree on your labels and your assessments of his character. It's not complicated.
- danieldk 10y ago
  Just wondering: you don't find his 'blood coming out of...' comment openly sexist? If not, I am wondering what is?
  - tnmrnis 10y ago
    There is a difference between attacking people because of their sex or by insulting them based on their sex. First is definitively sexist, the latter is arguable.
    - foldr 10y ago
      He was suggesting that Megan Kelley was asking him tough questions because she was on her period.
      - tnmrnis 10y ago
        He was suggesting that Megyn Kelly was asking him though questions and that the reason for this was that she is on her period. There is a very subtle but important difference. He attacked her for asking supposedly though questions, not for being on her period. First was the reason of his attack. Latter was the means of his attack.

TheArcane 10y ago

Speaking of India, the election of Modi further confirms the Brexit-Trump trend.

actuator 10y ago
Slightly because Modi comes from a centrist-right party but people voted for his party because there was no other viable option and he had done good work before.
toyg 10y ago
Putin, Erdogan firmly in power, right-wing holding on in Australia, a semi-golpe in Brazil... nationalism is on top, at the moment.
- oblio 10y ago
  Russia and Turkey have always been (rampantly) nationalist. Russia had a short failed episode of opening up with Yeltsin while Turkey has been letting Ataturk (and the few reforming sultans in the late period of the Ottoman empire) down ever since he died. Even the USSR was extremely nationalistic, albeit thinly veiled behind "internationalism".
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    Nationalistic of what nation? Russia is not nationalistic, Russia is permanently confused since 1917.
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  Putin was never elected in competitive election. Brexit was competitive, Hillary-Trump competitive, Modi perhaps, Putin elections weren't. Not in 2000, not in 2004 and certainly not in 2012.
  - legolas2412 10y ago
    Are you confusing competitive with credibility? Modi's election was comprehensive and with no competition, but it was also a legitimate voice of the nation. I'm not sure I could say the same for Putin, but his approval ratings remain high.

derefr 10y ago

> That's just wrong. Indian culture - and culture - is far, far more than a dance or some dish. I think there's a key concept missing from every discussion about culture, and that concept is that "X immigrant culture" is a completely different culture from "X culture." Indians in India have one culture, while Indians in e.g. Britain have a related, but divergent culture. Two places this matters: • Frequently, the people of "X immigrant culture" care a lot about 'preserving their heritage', because it's a constant struggle for them—while the people of "X culture" couldn't give a damn, because they're constantly steeped in their own culture and it's not going away. "Cultural appropriation" is an invention almost entirely of immigrant cultures. • People "exploring a culture" frequently have the implicit goal of exploring the domestic-immigrant offshoot of a culture, not the native one. Because of the lack of connection and cultural touchstone organizations that immigrants face, things like dances and dishes are seen as far more relevant in immigrant cultures, similar to their role in itinerant cultures.

Pyxl101 10y ago
> Frequently, the people of "X immigrant culture" care a lot about 'preserving their heritage', because it's a constant struggle for them A friend of mine who is a first generation Indian immigrant observed exactly same thing. He noticed his conservative Indian parents had become more extreme in their beliefs over time, as a sort of reaction against American culture. His parents feel a bit closed off from the rest of American society since they never fully integrated. However, simultaneously, he noticed that when he went to India, people there were actually becoming more liberal and tolerant over time, as compared to his parents who were becoming more traditional. A very interesting phenomenon.
- Moru 10y ago
  Yes, this has been observed many times here in Europe. People that come to a new culture they hated suddenly find themselves in a spot where the food and culture from the homecountry is more important than it ever was when they lived back home. Even germans start importing stuff to Sweden because that sausage they always hated back home is so much better than anything they can buy here in Sweden. And people that never cooked before start searching for ways to recreate the tastes from grandmas cooking. People from cultures that wear something over the head does so much more in the new country while the home country is starting to loosen up. Even though this is exactly why they moved away in the first place. (We have friends from Somalia, Germany, Turkey, Russia, Egypt and then some, that describe this for us)

oldhermit 10y ago

White guilt is a large reason why white people are afraid to assert themselves and their racial identity. You're basically labeled a bigot if you don't support the cause of nihilistic globalism and moral leveling.

RandomInteger4 10y ago
No, the fucking problem is that you fucking racists want to group all god damned white people under some monolithic banner of whiteness and call that a fucking culture. It's the god damned racists in this fucking country that have erased or at least attempted to erase the ethnic origins of groups you place under the banner of whiteness. German? No, you're white now. Irish? Nope, white. Italian? Nope, white. Because remember, it's apparently whites against blacks right? How about you fuckers stop trying to make this a black and white world and instead just fuck off back into your caves and under your rocks where your survivalist bunkers are. So fucking sick of you confederate flag waving mother fuckers.
- laughfactory 10y ago
  Geez us, man. Get a grip. People like you who are blinded by rage are a big part of what's wrong with this country. You scream at someone for being a "fucking racist" and believe you hold the moral high ground? Are you kidding me? In my book your behavior is every bit as bad as the worst kind of bigotry and racism I've ever been exposed to. After reading your rant I need to go wash my eyes out with soap.
  - exclusiv 10y ago
    So true. Progressive and tolerant on the far left (so long as you share the same views)
- muad 10y ago
  Triggered.
- imtringued 10y ago
  I'm wondering how many people will continue to commit the mistake of not differentiating between individuals and groups. On average the group X might have property Y but that doesn't mean every individual has property Y. It doesn't make sense to differentiate individuals by the group they belong to. It makes sense to differentiate individuals by their properties directly.

PKop 10y ago

This is the most concise explanation for what many on the left fail to grasp, and one of the many reasons why I and many are Trump supporters. We are on one hand supposed to respect and honor other cultures, but are not allowed to cultivate, maintain and respect our own (American) culture. Which is absurd for many reasons... one being it denies a very real reason for many wanting to come to our country, or fails to identify the characteristics that made western culture generally preferable to many others. I appreciate your perspective on this issue.

angstrom 10y ago
I've driven across the US three times. American culture is largely gone, coopted by cookie cutter homes, strip malls and wal-marts. It's a beautiful country though.
- gph 10y ago
  I disagree. American culture is still very much there, it just doesn't exist within the corporate/commercial realm. I think something people always seem to overlook is that there never really was a singular American culture. The different regions have had very distinct cultures. I've been to Polish festivals across the Midwest, large bbq/cookouts in the south, and plenty of bluegrass festivals around appalachia. There's plenty of culture around. It's just not at the surface anymore now that mass media and other interests have sort of taken control of that arena.
  - seanp2k2 10y ago
    And in California, music festivals and underground parties, all the swimming holes around Yuba, Tahoe (not the touristy stuff), countless other hippie hang-outs... And that's just a specific sub-culture in NorCal. I'm sure tons of similar things exist around the US, but the California one is pretty awesome and does reach to other places in the world (Hawaii, Costa Rica, Bali, etc)
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

buzzybee 10y ago

I've thought lately that the cosmopolitan outlook, which I do hold and generally enjoy, is also a rootless one. In accepting the ever-present change, respecting the multitude of outlooks, it often denies connecting with traditions in favor of a single "modern, rational, progressive" view that buries its internal contradictions beneath fleeting surface treasures. At the same time, it supports the imperial concept of misappropriating original traditions as a convenient fancy, a reference to the exotic, or a belittling of the other, which you give a great example of - with the pretext that this is somehow contributing to progress. Appropriation can be "done right" and produce great new works, but it can't be done easily. It's so much easier to simply loot the past without thinking. One of the books I like that considers similar thoughts at various points is Melzer's Philosophy Between the Lines: The Lost History of Esoteric Philosophy. [0] [0] http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/P/bo18692306.html http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/P/bo186...

johnny22 10y ago
Ah, i guess it is a rootless one. I never really thought (directly) about it. I've never cared where my ancestors came from. I always like the idea of an America that was always changing who it was.

endisukaj 10y ago

The thing about negating white culture is prevalent only in the US. Most Europeans are fiercely proud of their culture and nation.

efaref 10y ago
Except the English, where our national flag has acquired connotations of racism.
- endisukaj 10y ago
  Really? Didn't know anything about that. Did it start with Brexit?
  - kagamine 10y ago
    It ended with Brexit and started with football hooliganism and skinheads (not the reggae loving kind) 30 years ago.
- legolas2412 10y ago
  I doubt that. Theresa May comes to India and talks about better trade relations because of "our shared past". Either she is naive and stupid or she really loves her colonial loot. Nobody in India wants to be reminded of our servitude in the "shared-past".
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    Maybe she isn't referring purely to servitude? That's your interpretation.
- cmiller1 10y ago
  Yeah, the English are the only ones who are afraid of nationalism... I think you might be forgetting about at least one other country.
  - 10y ago

RangerScience 10y ago

You know, this is kind of inspiring. I know where my blood comes from (Sicily and WASP), and I know where I grew up and got my ideas (Berkeley), but, it's not like I've really tried to turn into some kind of culture; I've participating in a thing that's been made into a culture (festivals), but that's not the same, is it? Hmm. Are there cultural world's fairs anymore?

notacoward 10y ago

> Indian culture - any culture - is far, far more than a dance or some dish. I think most people understand that. What do you think would be an improvement? Surely not that they fail even to appreciate the dance or the dish. It's not likely that they'll embark on a years-long quest to understand the deeper history, religion etc. of a dozen different cultures. What, really, would you have them do? Without a suggestion, you're just bashing.

artursapek 10y ago

Very well put. I've been extremely turned off by everything you described but couldn't put words to it that well.